S02.E07: Arrivederci

[wendyg]

 

Count me among those who preferred season 1. It's interesting, though, to think about the very different circumstances under which the two seasons were conceived. S1 was highly constrained: White had a very short time in which to deliver the scripts, and all the action had to take place on the grounds of the resort, with limited ability to enlist extras. The result was a tightly enclosed piece that explored the negotiations and power dynamics among wealthy and less wealthy people glued together through marriage, family ties, etc. S2 White had much more time to write and a greatly expanded canvas geographically, but he also had much less time for the themes and ideas that went into S1 to germinate (I'm assuming that he could write S1 fast because his head already had lots of ideas in it that had collected over years; for S2 he had less time for ideas to occur.) The result is a more sprawling and disconnected piece where the stressors are often external rather than internal, which I find less interesting. I also think it's harder to muster sympathy (and you need *some* to make a compelling drama) for the extraordinarily wealthy than it was a couple of years ago because their toxic influence has become much clearer in that time.

Daphne S2 seems to me Rachel S1 plus five-seven years.

I think Ethan's late-stage behavior makes some sense in the light of the story he told about Cameron's always pinching the girls he was attracted to before he could get to them. (I actually knew a pair of men with that sort of issue; the recurrent loser told me one thing he liked about his then-current girlfriend was that she wasn't beautiful enough for someone to want to steal her from him.)

Valentina's recurring rudeness to guests was I guess supposed to indicate that here was a woman who needed to get laid. Because it was certainly unprofessional and, one would have thought, would have let to complaints that got her demoted or fired.

Jennifer Coolidge's appeal as an actress remains a mystery to me.

Loved Portia's clothes.

 

[chaifan]

OK, first I'll admit that I didn't read all 800+ (!) comments, just the first and last page, so I apologize if my thoughts are repeats/rehashes...

I was underwhelmed by the 1st season, and only reluctantly watched the 2nd season.  I actually liked it better, and mostly enjoyed it, but the end was a disappointment for me.

There are just so many weird issues with Tanya's death.  My biggest question is why did Quentin and his friends go so over the top with Tanya, if the end goal was to kill her so Greg could inherit her fortune?  What was the point of the big party, the hook up with Nikko, the opera, etc?  (OK, second biggest question - did Tanya just happen to pack an opera cape, or did Quentin have one lying around that just happened to fit Tanya???)  They obviously didn't really enjoy spending the time with her, they thought she was an idiot.  If the goal was just for her to end up dead, all that was unnecessary.  Also, I'd have to assume the goal was for her to end up dead and look like an accident.  So why the rope?  Just coke her up and push her overboard, have someone in the water to hold her down to make sure she's dead, wait 'til morning and call the police to report her missing.

My second issue is with Portia.  OK, she's 20 and makes stupid choices.  But I still can't imagine her getting on a plane without Tanya, or some confirmation that she's ok, after her conversation with Tanya the night before.

And there's so much more.  So much more...  I don't believe every show has to have every detail wrapped up nicely in a neat bow.  I'm ok with wondering about some things. But this is just too much.  I'm not a fan of that. 

So we'll have a Season 3.  I think the only way I'll watch it is if we know that this will be about Greg/Quentin/Tanya.  Start it off with a pre-Season 1 flashback, with Quentin & Greg at the first White Lotus hotel, scoping out lonely rich women to scam.  (Side note:  I felt from the beginning Greg's meet-cute with Tanya was part of a long con.  I'm all with @WearyTraveler's theory (page 8 of this thread) that they've done this before.)  Then flash forward to post-Season 2, to the investigation of Tanya's death, and tie up these stupid loose ends for the viewers.  Then flash forward to present day, with Greg & new fabulously gay partner at another White Lotus (since we know they're filming at a new posh location), looking for Wife Number 5.  Then end with Greg getting nabbed.  Then stop this series. 

 

 

 

[Baltimore Betty]

12 minutes ago, chaifan said:

Then flash forward to present day, with Greg & new fabulously gay partner at another White Lotus

Well they did have all those points and some Swan (or whatever it was called) status, no sense going to waste!

[KittyQ]

On 12/11/2022 at 7:49 PM, Whimsy said:

I don’t understand why Portia was wearing all the stuff to “hide” when she literally did nothing wrong. She should’ve immediately gone to the hotel to see what was up with Tanya, after calling the police. 

I think because of the warning that Jack gave her when he dropped her off in the other town. He told her to go to the airport and just get on her plane; don't go back to the hotel, because (to paraphrase) "these people are dangerous". Since Jack had no idea that Tanya had managed to pretty much wipe out all of the people on the boat, including the presumed assassin, and Portia also knew nothing about it, the warning was that if Portia appeared and talked to the police, "something" could happen to her too. 

Ideally, the "right" thing to do would be to return to the hotel and tell the police that there's something fishy going on, but since Portia has had a clear demonstration of how helpless she was in the face of this conspiracy, she had no reason to doubt that nothing good would come of it.

[KittyQ]

On 12/11/2022 at 7:52 PM, txhorns79 said:

Albie deserved what he got with Lucia.  This is what happens when you think with your dick rather than your brain.  

Expensive, though. Of course, it is his dad's money, not his, so maybe not as harsh a lesson. I also thought he seemed unusually ok with admitting he'd been played when talking with Portia. Maybe because we are of different generations, but I would think that was humiliating, not amusing. 

[shapeshifter]

On 2/13/2023 at 11:29 AM, wendyg said:

Loved Portia's clothes.

That makes 2 of us, LOL.😉

[peachmangosteen]

On 2/13/2023 at 11:29 AM, wendyg said:

Loved Portia's clothes.

 

11 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

That makes 2 of us, LOL.😉

Three!

[hendersonrocks]

I'm a few months behind but finally just finished S2, and ugh. I watched the last episode through my hands and/or while multitasking because it was just soooo uncomfortable. And maybe that's the point! But between knowing Tanya was going to die (Jennifer Coolidge's Emmy or Golden Globes speech where she thanked Mike White for killing her off) and the unending pain of watching Ethan and Harper lose their ever loving minds I felt mildly tortured. 

I liked S1 a lot more. I'm still not sure if I like S1 or S2 at all, though. I tend to struggle if I don't have characters I enjoy watching (to be clear, they don't need to be GOOD PEOPLE - Avon Barksdale and Stringer Bell, I'm looking at you), and honestly these people all absolutely suck.

[Cliff dweller]

I don't know if someone has already addressed this, I don't want to take the time to read all of the posts.

But, could the dead body that we saw in the water have been the man on the boat who jumped off?  The foot looked more like a man's foot than a woman's, and Tanya was wearing her shoes when she fell into the water, and I don't think the fall was enough to knock off those shoes.  So, perhaps Tanya survived?

[blackwing]

Just finished this season.  I found Jennifer Coolidge and Tanya to be incredibly irritating.  I did feel sympathy for her in the last episode, but she has been such a self-absorbed twit who treated people around her poorly, it was hard to completely feel sorry for her as her own stupidity and vanity led her into making some incredibly poor choices.

I'm sure Mike White would love to bring Coolidge back.  I hope it's not as Tanya with a "this season in Thailand happened in between Hawaii and Sicily".  That's cheap.  He could try to bring her back as a long lost cousin of Tanya, but that's a bit cheap as well since we had been told she had no living relatives at all.  She could come back as a new character who resembles Tanya.  It'd be interesting if she were a completely competent and serious character, but I don't think Coolidge can pull that off.  She has no range.  She plays the same character in everything she does... slightly befuddled, slightly annoying.  If they ever remake "Clue the Movie" like they always say they will, I could see her being a perfect Mrs. Peacock... same mannerisms.

On 12/14/2022 at 5:18 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

Everyone refers to Cameron as being rich or calls him "the rich guy" when it was Ethan who sold his company and had a big payout.  Can anyone clarify Cameron's money situation?  I don't remember it.  He seems really desperate for money.  He refused to pay the hookers and he's certainly trying to con Ethan out of money as well.

On 12/14/2022 at 5:24 PM, izabella said:

He's an investment banker who is not above insider trading.  He's rich.  He's the kind of rich where his wife can just randomly rent a palazzo for an overnight, with full staff, for two people just for fun without thinking about it for even a moment.

He didn't refuse.  He gave Lucia some of the money right away, but just didn't have enough cash on him at the time for the full amount, mostly becasue of how much extra she tacked on for the drugs they all took. In this episode, we saw him give her the rest of the cash in an envelope when she was at the bar, and she ran out joyfully and let Mia know.

He wasn't conning Ethan out of money.  He was implying he would have liked to get a heads up that Ethan was selling, so Cameron could do some insider trading with that information.

Although I just finished this season, I've been reading each episode thread as I finished each episode.  I see that there was lots of speculation throughout the season that Cameron was broke, and that he was trying to con money out of Ethan.  This episode seems to confirm that he wasn't broke at all.  He has money, he paid off Lucia and didn't try to swindle Ethan.

He did suggest to Ethan that he give him a tip about Ethan's company so he would know when to sell, but Ethan refused.  

So I'm left wonder, why did Cameron and Daphne even invite Ethan and Harper on this trip?  They were freshman year roommates at Yale.  I'd say they are about 35 now.  It doesn't sound like they've been that close.  Cameron and Daphne had never met Harper.  If they're not really close friends, why travel together?

Based on Cameron constantly kissing and touching Ethan and saying he wanted to "be inside" him, it does seem like Cameron is maybe bi and perhaps they have a history?  But nothing was ever confirmed.  And even if true, would that be reason enough to invite this couple to Sicily after so many years?  

On 1/23/2023 at 7:26 PM, Blakeston said:

Ethan - Ethan was just a very poorly written character. Up until the finale, he had absolutely no personality beyond 1) being a frustrated second fiddle to Cameron, and 2) communicating poorly with his wife and failing to satisfy her. I'm not buying for a second that he had what it takes to start his own company in the cutthroat tech world, and grow it into a big success.

Portia - While it would be nice to think that Portia would arrive back in the US, speak out against Greg, and get him arrested, I could totally see her pretending that nothing ever happened. After what Jack told her, she believes it's in her best interests to keep her mouth shut. And we never saw anything to suggest that Portia cares about anyone other than herself - except making that one warning call to Tanya, which wasn't much. She really was like Tanya in so many ways.

I agree completely about Ethan.  He was a complete dud of a character.  Spent most of the season completely devoid of personality.  Then episode 6 he seemed unhinged in the way he smoldered anger and resentment.  Then perhaps at Cameron's urging (and when Cameron had conveniently disappeared), Daphne takes him to the deserted island and sleeps with him.  And now all is good?  Whatever.  I'm with you, no way Ethan is this hugely successful tech mogul.

It does seem like Portia won't say anything.  She was very casual in the way she simply told Albie she hadn't heard from Tanya.  What?

On 2/13/2023 at 12:04 PM, chaifan said:

OK, first I'll admit that I didn't read all 800+ (!) comments, just the first and last page, so I apologize if my thoughts are repeats/rehashes...

I was underwhelmed by the 1st season, and only reluctantly watched the 2nd season.  I actually liked it better, and mostly enjoyed it, but the end was a disappointment for me.

There are just so many weird issues with Tanya's death.  My biggest question is why did Quentin and his friends go so over the top with Tanya, if the end goal was to kill her so Greg could inherit her fortune?  What was the point of the big party, the hook up with Nikko, the opera, etc?  (OK, second biggest question - did Tanya just happen to pack an opera cape, or did Quentin have one lying around that just happened to fit Tanya???)  They obviously didn't really enjoy spending the time with her, they thought she was an idiot.  If the goal was just for her to end up dead, all that was unnecessary.  Also, I'd have to assume the goal was for her to end up dead and look like an accident.  So why the rope?  Just coke her up and push her overboard, have someone in the water to hold her down to make sure she's dead, wait 'til morning and call the police to report her missing.

My second issue is with Portia.  OK, she's 20 and makes stupid choices.  But I still can't imagine her getting on a plane without Tanya, or some confirmation that she's ok, after her conversation with Tanya the night before.

And there's so much more.  So much more...  I don't believe every show has to have every detail wrapped up nicely in a neat bow.  I'm ok with wondering about some things. But this is just too much.  I'm not a fan of that. 

So we'll have a Season 3.  I think the only way I'll watch it is if we know that this will be about Greg/Quentin/Tanya.  Start it off with a pre-Season 1 flashback, with Quentin & Greg at the first White Lotus hotel, scoping out lonely rich women to scam.  (Side note:  I felt from the beginning Greg's meet-cute with Tanya was part of a long con.  I'm all with @WearyTraveler's theory (page 8 of this thread) that they've done this before.)  Then flash forward to post-Season 2, to the investigation of Tanya's death, and tie up these stupid loose ends for the viewers.  Then flash forward to present day, with Greg & new fabulously gay partner at another White Lotus (since we know they're filming at a new posh location), looking for Wife Number 5.  Then end with Greg getting nabbed.  Then stop this series. 

I fully agree about Tanya's death.  Why go through all of that?  Other than Mike White wanting to see the Niccolo actor naked and showing them all having a great time in a beautiful palazzo.  Why go through all that trouble?  Why not just give her some bad drugs?  "Oops, she didn't know her limits and she overdosed and died.  My condolences Greg."  Instead, this huge plot, which includes Jack spiriting Portia off in his car to get her out of the way.  Just so much unnecessary steps.

Also, the guy that was with the French guy (the one that Tanya called "the other one" or something like that) and the captain both jumped off the boat.  Did they survive?  I forget how many bodies were found.  We only saw Quentin, Niccolo and Didier's bodies.  If they said "four bodies" that presumably includes Tanya.

If they survived, then Tanya could have survived by simply jumping.  But I guess we needed the comedic death.

If those two survived, are they going to tell their story that Tanya killed the other three?  I guess Tanya is dead so it doesn't matter.  But if Tanya had survived, I could see her having manslaughter charges brought against her.  Yes, Niccolo had rope and a gun, but there really wasn't concrete evidence that they intended to kill her.  Jack's words to Portia could be just him talking without knowing anything.  

I also agree that for Season 3, I need to have some closure.  It bothers me thinking that Greg is going to inherit all of her money.  I really hope that Portia went to the authorities and told them about Greg.  I really hope Season 3 opens with some characters watching the news on TV and there's a story or a ticker item that indicates that Greg has been arrested in a murder-for-hire plot.  And that Belinda has inherited all of Tanya's money.  Then a clip of Belinda smiling at her own spa in Thailand.  Cue opening credits.

On 3/7/2023 at 6:38 PM, Cliff dweller said:

I don't know if someone has already addressed this, I don't want to take the time to read all of the posts.

But, could the dead body that we saw in the water have been the man on the boat who jumped off?  The foot looked more like a man's foot than a woman's, and Tanya was wearing her shoes when she fell into the water, and I don't think the fall was enough to knock off those shoes.  So, perhaps Tanya survived?

In this episode, the season finale, there was a clear shot of Tanya's body floating face down in the water.  We see her hair and it's wearing her dress.  She's dead.

Edited May 1, 2023 by blackwing

[chocolatine]

9 hours ago, blackwing said:

He could try to bring her back as a long lost cousin of Tanya, but that's a bit cheap as well since we had been told she had no living relatives at all.

Living relatives tend to materialize at a surprisingly fast rate when a $500M inheritance is up for grabs.

[blackwing]

14 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Living relatives tend to materialize at a surprisingly fast rate when a $500M inheritance is up for grabs.

Ah true.  If he decides to bring Coolidge back (which it seems he would), I could see her coming back as this second cousin once removed that nobody had ever heard of.  If this were to be the case, I truly do hope that this character would have a different personality.  It'd be annoying to kill off Tanya only to get back a Tanya clone.

[Shermie]

On 2/13/2023 at 11:29 AM, wendyg said:

Jennifer Coolidge's appeal as an actress remains a mystery to me.

Agree. She plays the kooky older lady well, but a little goes a long way. And I find her face hard to look at, there’s something so weird about it. Sorry, not sorry.

On 3/7/2023 at 7:38 PM, Cliff dweller said:

But, could the dead body that we saw in the water have been the man on the boat who jumped off?  The foot looked more like a man's foot than a woman's, and Tanya was wearing her shoes when she fell into the water, and I don't think the fall was enough to knock off those shoes.  So, perhaps Tanya survived?

The body that Daphne swim into? It was wearing the same colourful flowered dress that Tanya was wearing, so it was obviously her. And shoes easily fall off in a fall into the water, or drift off as she floats for hours. They were fancy heels, not tied-on sneakers, so easily to fall off.

On 5/1/2023 at 3:27 PM, blackwing said:

There are just so many weird issues with Tanya's death.  My biggest question is why did Quentin and his friends go so over the top with Tanya, if the end goal was to kill her so Greg could inherit her fortune?  What was the point of the big party, the hook up with Nikko, the opera, etc?

My guess is to set up an elaborate story that would sound legitimate to investigators. That they’ve been hanging out with Tanya for several days, she liked to party, she liked the good life, she was kind of crazy. If they just met her at the resort and went out on the yacht and she drowned, it would seem too fishy. But setting up that she was their friend takes away some suspicion. Not sure why they brought rope and duct tape if they wanted it to look like an accident; hard to hide marks from those things, even if used for a short time (as learned from my CSI/Law & Order education).

On 5/1/2023 at 3:27 PM, blackwing said:

Also, the guy that was with the French guy (the one that Tanya called "the other one" or something like that) and the captain both jumped off the boat.  Did they survive?  I forget how many bodies were found.  We only saw Quentin, Niccolo and Didier's bodies.  If they said "four bodies" that presumably includes Tanya.

If they survived, then Tanya could have survived by simply jumping.  But I guess we needed the comedic death.

They said “four bodies” in the first episode, so that was Tanya and the 3 guys she shot. The other criminal will probably take off and disappear since he’s a criminal. The captain is a wild card, since he might be just a hired captain or part of their criminal empire. Even if we didn’t hear that thud when she fell (which is tv speak for banged head and is dead), I doubt Tanya is the type that could swim, especially in a flowy dress.

The only way I see Coolidge being back for season 3 is in a flashback as part of the investigation into Greg. He isn’t getting an easy ride to her bank account, given that her death was part of a mass murder event involving organized crime. 

As for the rest of the characters, I think that foursome deserve each other as spouses and friends. They’re all passive-aggressive and toxic and seem to love it. 

Albie and his family? Yes, there’s nothing wrong with admiring a good-looking person, but that scene at the end where the three generations of guys overtly ogled the woman even while admitting one was played and another claims to want to reunite with beleaguered wife? That’s to show that some people never change, and the next generation learns from the previous.

I hope Valentina finds happiness and that she doesn’t wait for Mia to find someone for her. Valentina is a grown-ass woman; she can find her own dates. 

I loved all the clothes that Daphne, Harper, Mia and Lucia wore. Those cute dresses at the end on M and L? Fabulous! And Harper’s wardrobe was amazingly casual yet high-end. Loved it all.