S08.E01: We Need to Talk About Kevin

[Demented Daisy]

When Dean emerges from Purgatory, his reunion with Sam isn't what he expected;  Kevin escapes from Crowley's grasp.

 

 

So much potential ruined in one episode.  *shakes head*  

 

I've long believed that TPTB have a tendency to run with an idea before they fully think it through.  I think that was the case with Sam here.  They decided that Sam shouldn't look for Dean, but didn't really think about what that meant.

 

Sam's reasoning was flawed.  He had no idea where to start looking?  Well, Crowley knew what happened.  He pretty much told Sam that he knew in the season finale.  There was no way he could have gotten the info from Crowley?

 

Even if he couldn't -- a little bit of critical thinking would have told him.  Dean and Cas just killed a Leviathan.  Where do Leviathans come from?  Hmm.  Not a huge leap there.

 

And don't even get me started on him not looking for Kevin.

 

Oh, one more thing.  Too.  Many.  Flashbacks.

[supposebly]

And another season that starts with Dean side-eyeing Sam. I've been watching season 3 lately and the back and forth between their point of view is so very refreshing.

 

There is no fanwanking and no sense on how Sam might have gotten there. Character-assassination at its finest. Stupidity (not summoning Crowley to get some answers), cowardice (the running and ignoring), and neglect (Kevin). Nice going, writers.

 

Even if he hadn't been able to get Dean out, not even trying is pretty inexcusable.

[DittyDotDot]

This would be a very long rant if I said what I really thought, so I'll just leave it as...I really like Man In The Wilderness. I think that's enough.

Edited August 21, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[Amerilla]

The irritating thing for me is that they had a decent enough set-up to make Sam's inaction meaningful (as opposed to craven character assassination).

 

This is a guy who had spent the previous year or going to Hell, coming back soulless, committing countless un-Sam-like acts of violence and hedonism, having his soul shoved back into him by Death himself, watching Cas become God and seemingly die, suffering months of torture at the hands of Hallucifer, fighting the Leviathans, watching Bobby die and having to convince his spirit to follow....and now he's standing there with no Dean, no Bobby, no Castiel, not even Meg - no family, no love, no deus ex machina or angels or demons to feed him information. It's not altogether unbelieveable he would wig out and bolt.

 

The problem is, it played more like Sam shrugged, got in the Impala, changed all of Dean's presets and headed off into the sunset.
 
Because I'm a sucker for Dean's manpain, I did think the part of that played best was his dawning realization that Sam had simply moved on without him - as we've seen, always one of his core fears - and his immediate shift to deflect into being about Kevin. You could watch those couple of scenes and learn all you need to know about Dean and his issues, and probably 80% of what you need to know about the dysfunctionality of these two lunks.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Amerilla

[supposebly]

 

It's not altogether unbelieveable he would wig out and bolt.

I know! I just don't understand why they didn't show that part? Instead he runs over a dog and a bitchy vet makes him stay. WTF? My apologies to all the dog lovers but, really? Apart from why would it be a good idea to keep a dog when he made it clear he didn't have a home for the dog.

The less said about the whole Amelia disaster, the better.

Again, I thought there was a good idea there, showing how dysfunctional those two were together. I just don't know why this was ever interesting. It's been made very, very clear that there is no outside "normal" for those two, I don't know how many, many times before, so why rehash this topic in such a disjointed ridiculous manner, making Sam look like the worst brother and hunter in the universe?

 

In my alternate-verse about what happened: He started driving, one could see him trying to find Dean and Kevin, maybe team up with another hunter. He could actually make a friend in a hunter for once who would help him but also slowly help him give up eventually once it becomes clear they're not getting anywhere. And when Dean comes back, there is enough tension because it introduces someone else into the mix. It could be a parallel to the Dean-Benny situation with less guilt and monsterness.

[catrox14]

This is probably my 2nd favorite season opener lead only by Lazarus Rising and tied with In My Time of Dying.

 

<3 Purgatory!Dean<3 is my second favorite Dean after regular!Dean<3, however on purely shallow note,  <Purgatory!Dean<3 is the hottest Dean.  I mean good lord, the badassery, the hair, the demeanor...is it getting hot in here?

 

I love everything about Dean here. He's so fucked up from Purgatory. He's so angry and hurt that Sam didn't look for him.  Jensen IMO did some of his finest work as PTSD ridden Dean here. He was on edge, ready to pounce, not feeling right anymore.  Just sooo much goodness about Dean. And the Purgatory flashbacks were awesome.  Also, <3Benny!!!>3

 

And then there is Sam. Talk about massive WTFery retcon.  On one hand, I can sort of believe that Sam would give up looking for Dean after at at least a cursory look-see. But not looking for Kevin is rough. And just shut up, writers.  At no point was there ever an actual pact between the brothers to not look for each other.   Even back in Lazarus Rising, Dean said, "I told you not to make a deal" but Sam did anyway. In Swan Sucks...Song, Sam made Dean promise to not look for him and Dean flat out said "No, I didn't sign up for that" and we learned in s6 that Dean did try to find him. So why even say there was a pact that both ignored only now Sam doesn't without a reallly really really good explanation and I'm sorry but Amelia is not enough.  It could have been an interesting exploration of the guilt Sam might have felt spoilers for the rest of s8. (

if Sam had at least apologized for not looking for Dean in the church then I would have bought the entire thing as an exercise in the futility that the brothers can ever have a normal life especially since they explored that with Dean in s6 so it's reasonable to try and explore that with Sam because he was the one that wanted the normal life in the beginning of the show. But they didn't do that ..so WTF

??

 

So, I think this was an asspull plot contrivance that ended up as some character destruction of Sam. And yet I swear I don't think the writers really intended it that way.  I think they thought it was supposed to show that Sam was being independent and at long last respecting this heretofore unknown pact. I guess I am being magnanimous towards the writers because I can't believe they intentionally tried to tear down Sam's character with him not looking for Dean. 

 

Nor do I think it was to garner more sympathy for Dean because  Dean already had the sympathy built in purely for having been in Purgatory. So yeah...WTF?

 

But even with that head-scratching choice by the writers, I really love this episode as a season opener because it set up the rest of the season pretty darn well. s8 spoilers

( LOL SO I THOUGHT!! LOLOLOL at me)

[supposebly]

 

I think they thought it was supposed to show that Sam was being independent and at long last respecting this heretofore unknown pact.

 

I know. I actually thought it was a good idea to explore.

"People always die." That I can work with. It ties in with previously addressed issues such as that you can't save everyone.

 

It just doesn't work if you have a character we know abandoned by him, especially if it becomes a plot point in the episode. And then they have him say: "I didn't just drop out, Dean. I found something. Something I never had. All my life."

 

Excuuuuuse me for remembering the love of his life Jess who he lived with.

 

I did like his concern for Dean and getting him a burger.

[catrox14]

 

I did like his concern for Dean and getting him a burger.

 

That scene kind of pissed me off because they have Sam make that wonderful gesture of knowing what Dean loves and then have Sam mock him for enjoying it so much. I was like "Really, Sam? You don't remember that Dean had not had that wonderful thing during his entire year of fighting for his life every damn day in Purgatory against actual monsters?"  Just, no.

 

Excuuuuuse me for remembering the love of his life Jess who he lived with.

 

 

Oh. My. Gods.  In all the times I've watched this episode, I never pinged on that part of the dialogue that he said he never had that before in his life. .  HOLY SHIT. That's way worse then the show never remembering Dean had Cassie.  WOW WOW WOW.  That's....wow. LOL

Edited August 21, 2014 by catrox14

[Amerilla]

I love everything about Dean here. He's so fucked up from Purgatory. He's so angry and hurt that Sam didn't look for him.  Jensen IMO did some of his finest work as PTSD ridden Dean here. He was on edge, ready to pounce, not feeling right anymore.  Just sooo much goodness about Dean. And the Purgatory flashbacks were awesome.

 

I loved that, even before we'd really seen any flashbacks, you could see that Dean had been focusing on this moment of reunion as an emotional anchor during his time in Purgatory, which of course amplified the hurt of learning Sam...hadn't. And you also knew that he was going to avoid telling Sam as much as possible about what Purgatory had been like - keeping his PTSD to himself.

 

Jensen did great, but you could see Jared didn't quite know how to play it - he had to realize this wasn't what Sam would ever, ever do. Or not do.

 

Still, I liked what he did with the scene where Dean plays Kevin's messages to him.One of the things that's come to fascinate me about Dean is that he functions not just as a brother to Sam, but almost like a mother figure. We know from early on that Dean assigned himself the task of "protecting" Sam not just from real monsters but kept him shielded from the knowledge of how screwed up their lives were for as long as possible; that he tried to keep balance between John and Sam, if not actual peace between them; that he saw Sam's departure for college as one of the worst days of his life; that he is more than willing to die painfully so that Sam can live a long life. And neither he nor Sam fully understand that that's one of the big pieces of their relationship.

 

Here, though, Sam did what one does when confronted with an angry parent.  He tries to defuse the situation, by making a peace offering of food. That doesn't work. So he sits with his head mostly down, looking at Dean, feeling all that angry silence and waiting for the inevitable. When it finally comes, tries to keep it from escalating - "Okay. I get it." - and to get things back to normal - "So, what, you want to strategize or something?" Anything to avoid a blow-up over what is only partly about him abandoning Kevin. Jared played it sort of like a 17 year old caught smoking pot in the family rumpus room: part defiant, part afraid. I thought it was just about perfect. 

 

And then they have him say: "I didn't just drop out, Dean. I found something. Something I never had. All my life."

Excuuuuuse me for remembering the love of his life Jess who he lived with.

 

That was less perfect. In every respect.

[supposebly]

What's worse: Dean actually mentions Jess when they talk outside the church after they found Kevin. This episode is so much WTFery for me.

 

I adore Kevin and I think he should have stayed away from them. He seemed much better off without them. Crowley only found him because they talked to his demon-possessed girlfriend who probably followed them.

 

The burger scene is fine for me, it's similar to how he keeps not getting Dean the right pie. I think it's his way of not getting too chickflicky. It's kinda moot at this point but that doesn't bother me.

 

Here, though, Sam did what one does when confronted with an angry parent.  He tries to defuse the situation, by making a peace offering of food. That doesn't work. So he sits with his head mostly down, looking at Dean, feeling all that angry silence and waiting for the inevitable. When it finally comes, tries to keep it from escalating - "Okay. I get it." - and to get things back to normal - "So, what, you want to strategize or something?" Anything to avoid a blow-up over what is only partly about him abandoning Kevin. Jared played it sort of like a 17 year old caught smoking pot in the family rumpus room: part defiant, part afraid. I thought it was just about perfect.

 

I noticed that too. While I think that was the only acting choice that actually makes sense for Sam, they wanted to show his way as the mature choice. Of course, it really really wasn't mature at all.

I never have a problem with Jared's acting, I think he often creates diamonds of a lot of shitty and inconsistent material. This was the best to do to keep Sam in character. I did hear he wasn't a fan of the Amelia story either.

Edited August 21, 2014 by supposebly

[AwesomO4000]

Warning: Potential rant ahead. Implied coarse language and ill-will ahead. Please proceed with caution or choose to go around the potential debris hazard.  This is your final warning. Thank you...

 

Agreeing with everything everyone has said here in terms of Sam's storyline (and I agree @supposebly - "character assassination at its finest") and I want to add my own WTF? I can understand if they wanted to explore an "I want normal for once" storyline, but was Sam really the character to do that with? In my opinion a big fat NO. When was the last time we saw Sam even seriously consider normal? One bizarre and underdeveloped mention in that awful "Chris Angel is a Douchebag" episode, and before that, maybe in season 2 sometime. I seem to remember Sam saying "We don't want normal. We want this." and meaning it since "Everybody Loves a Clown." There was even "Afterschool Special" where the message Sam learned was that Sam wanting normal = other people getting hurt and him not being happy, and that growing up and being mature meant sacrificing his own dreams sometimes - and Sam accepted that. Meaning I guess, now here when Sam wanted happy, I guess it was okay to have other people - like Kevin - suffer for his "normal life" and we're supposed to find that "mature?" Doesn't that contradict what "Afterschool Special" showed us Sam learned?

 

We also had Sam turning to hunting as a default in "Mystery Spot" and as Soulless Sam. We had Sam hunting to keep himself sane and grounded in season 7. And speaking of "Mystery Spot" - Sam didn't learn his lesson there, so why all of a sudden now, really? And that still doesn't excuse his not looking for Kevin (see above). Even if the writers tried to rationalize not looking for Dean as "mature" or whatever - how was leaving Kevin in Crowley's hands the "mature" or responsible thing to do? I'm half convinced that "mature" thing was a last minute "we'll just tell the fans something and they'll believe it" ploy, because not looking for Kevin entirely contradicts it, so I'm not convinced they cared what they did to Sam's character here as long as they could create huge Dean manpain.

 

Sera Gamble may not have been the world's best show runner, but I can say that I felt that she left a really good set up for Carver (likely better than the one she was left with) and that she never assassinated Sam or Dean - she tore down Castiel a bit, but she also provided him with some redemption, so I have no complaints there either. It was hard for me to enjoy Dean's part of the story, because I was too busy WTFing over Sam's mess of a storyline.

 

@catrox14 - So, I think this was an asspull plot contrivance that ended up as some character destruction of Sam. And yet I swear I don't think the writers really intended it that way.  I think they thought it was supposed to show that Sam was being independent and at long last respecting this heretofore unknown pact. I guess I am being magnanimous towards the writers because I can't believe they intentionally tried to tear down Sam's character with him not looking for Dean. 

 

Nor do I think it was to garner more sympathy for Dean because  Dean already had the sympathy built in purely for having been in Purgatory. So yeah...WTF?

 

I would likely completely agree with you if it weren't for seeing something like this before in season 4. I would think that 40 years in hell would be plenty enough to garner sympathy for Dean, but no, that wasn't enough. That had to have Sam callously lie to Dean, berate him for being weak, and physically beat hm down in order to garner more sympathy for Dean. They also threw Alastair in there, too, just in case we didn't get it. Season 4 was all about "let's heap as much stuff on Dean as possible" and it didn't seem to matter to the writers that Sam's character was being sacrificed in the process.

 

So for me, it's not so much that they were trying to tear Sam's character down purposefully, so much as it appeared - to me anyway - they just didn't care that they did it, because they thought the Dean mainpain was worth it -<speculation only>  "everyone likes Dean better anyway, so who cares if Sam looks like the worst brother ever. We'll just give some lame-ass explanation to fix it later. :: shrug :: Because isn't Dean's pain delicious?!?" My reaction: "&%^$ you Carver." To further support my theory we have Castiel. First in this episode he appears to abandon Dean with no explanation - nice. And it took how long for Dean to find out why? And then we find out that Castiel

didn't go with Dean out of purgatory later on. Sure the explanation was that Cas felt he needed to atone, but for me the main reason was to cause Dean yet more pain.

So in a way Cas was also, in my opinion, sacrificed on that same altar of Dean manpain. And again "&%^$ you, Carver."

 

@supposebly - And then they have him say: "I didn't just drop out, Dean. I found something. Something I never had. All my life."

 

Excuuuuuse me for remembering the love of his life Jess who he lived with.

 

Exactly! And I'd like to add excuse me for remembering that Sam made a point of not only being glad that he and Dean were close despite all the tragedies in their life, but for telling Dean how much it was worth it to save people ("What Is...") and now I'm supposed to believe he's just shrugging his shoulders concerning Kevin - right. Not that I really believed he wouldn't look for Dean either mind you. There was this little episode called "Mystery Spot" (remember when you wrote that one, Carver) and then there was "Time After Time After Time." It's bad enough to introduce a plot contrivance like this supposed pact, but to then expect us to forget actual show canon - and we revisited Jessica in season 5 so we know she was still important to Sam and that he hadn't forgotten her.

 

So unfortunately I didn't like this episode (and in retrospect I hate it), because not only didn't it live up to the potential, but I could see the writing on the wall for the season as another round of Put-upon Dean and the Worst Brother Ever crap. Benny too

was eventually sacrificed on that same altar

. So for me with Sam's WTF behavior, the waste of potential, and now knowing what came after, I hate this episode and all it represents.

 

Okay, I think I've hopefully gotten that out of my system... don't be surprised to see very few responses from me  - and brief ones when they do occur - for the next 8 to 10 episodes, because well... they'd look a lot like this.

Edited August 21, 2014 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

 

I would likely completely agree with you if it weren't for seeing something like this before in season 4. I would think that 40 years in hell would be plenty enough to garner sympathy for Dean, but no, that wasn't enough.

 

Taking my response to the all seasons thread

[Mcolleague]

I also don't have too many nice things to say about this episode. The Purgatory stuff was such an awesome setup. I was so excited for this season, after hating Season 6 and 7 and having basically given up on the show. Jensen was really great with the PTSD reactions, the way he showed Dean's hypervigillance, and all of his dialogue just sounded so much more on edge.

Of course, the only good storyline was dropped, as usual. Let's string along the Dean fans and pretend he'll have a good mytharc for once. Fun!

 

 

What happened with Sam here was the epitome of character assassination. It doesn't sound like it from the discussions here and at TWOP, but I actually liked Sam a lot until this point. I always loved Dean more, but I am much more like Sam, and was very sympathetic towards him and understood his choices even through the demon blood arc etc. But wtf happened here... Sam not looking for Dean being explained as maturity of all things is not at ALL well justified and basically contradicts the seven seasons which came before this. Abandoning Kevin was even more inexcusable, and totally glossed over. I'm just starting to get over it and warm to Sam a bit now, two years later. Argh! 

In retrospect I think Sam's arc in Season 8 was about idealism/escapism, which IMO is pretty consistent with Sam as a character. A lot of the MOTW episodes (and Amelia) this season seemed to parallel this theme of pursuing happiness while ignoring reality until the past catches up. This could have been interesting and a good, sympathetic POV arc for Sam - but if this was the intention, the execution was really REALLY horrendous. No depiction of Sam's trauma leading up to this point, followed by a lot of self-righteous justifications about this retconned agreement they apparently had - with no apology? And all that deflecting of responsibility in Sacrifice. Carver, arghhhhh!

 I hate this season. 

[FlickChick]

I really liked parts of this season opener. To me, the best parts of S8 were the Purgatory flashbacks, and the worst parts were the Sam/Amelia flashbacks. I have absolutely no idea what the fuck the writers were doing with the Sam/Amelia storyline. It was insulting to Sam as a character, Jared as an actor, and the audience as something we should understand/embrace. As mentioned above, the S7 ending left a plethora of wonderful opportunities to develop in S8, but the writers screwed up royally!

 

The reason I liked this episode is because of the Purgatory flashbacks and Dean's kickass hunting attitude. Also, Benny!

[trxr4kids]

 

 And then they have him say: "I didn't just drop out, Dean. I found something. Something I never had. All my life."

 

In fairness to Sam he had never had a affair with a bitchy adulterous vet before unless it happened off screen like that stupid pact/promise thing. Speaking of the pact of stupidity, since Dean was aware of it shouldn't he be relieved that Sam kept his word this time, unlike the last time when Dean went to hell, cause that turned out pretty badly. I would've been okay with that but they had to pile on the Kevin issue, the finding something and the ditching the phones. If they really wanted to show Sam in a disturbing, dysfunctional relationship aside from the one he has with his brother, why not go all the way and bring back Becky?

 

So something nice to say....um the song choice Man In The Wilderness was good....oh and both Jared and Jensen delivered with the facial expressions, you could almost hear their thoughts, which really would've been better than the dialogue.

[mertensia]

Amelia was a waste. They created a bitchy alcoholic vet with no redeeming features and made her a love interest. There was nothing there for the fans: Sam made an incomprehensible to the fans decision (I think most of us would have understood Sam having a mental collapse of some sort) to just settle down with her and try to recreate his life with Jess and thumb his nose at Dean, Castiel and Kevin. We saw nothing to endear us to Amelia unless you like her type. We saw zero reason he would stay.

[rue721]

WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE.

 

Sam especially doesn't make any sense. He was alone as a teenager after high school, ffs, not "never." Nobody with a girlfriend or who has to sit in a small car with others should be groomed as poorly as he is (you have a duty to at least try to be hygienic when people have to be in such close contact with you, js). Forget the white lie he should have told, how is it even literally possible that he never even looked for Dean at least to the extent needed to confirm Dean's death? Almost the first thing he asks Dean is if he saw Cas die with his own eyes, so it's not even like he's not thinking that way even a year later! I guess this also means he made no effort to find Cas? And he literally never checked his voicemail? Not ONCE?! Who is he now, John? And I guess it's also supposed to be funny that Sam is having flashbacks and flipping out over hitting a dog?

 

I know they're trying to mirror the S6 and S7 season premiers, with the "normal life" for Sam and the "driven insane by horror" for Dean, etc. But it's done SO poorly. Just a terrible season opener, imo. Especially considering the S7 finale actually ended on a pretty good cliffhanger, with a lot of possibilities. And because I actually just *can't buy* that this is how the characters would behave. Dean now thinks that hunting monsters in Purgatory was "pure"? HE GOT THERE BY KILLING THE LEVIATHAN. It's not like hunting monsters there was so totally different from his regular life, in which he also constantly hunted monsters, it was just worse. I can understand the jumpy PTSD thing, and I can understand him being hunting-obsessed now and being buddies with some monster and all that sort of thing. But to act like there's this HUGE difference between him constantly hunting monsters on earth v. constantly hunting LITERALLY the same monsters in Purgatory is a pretty big stretch imo. And I'm going to try not to blather too much on how they just completely trashed Sam's character for not a single reason that I can see. I mean, to have Kevin leaving a billion voicemails for him, that he just didn't bother to listen to? For him to say outright that he just fixed up the car and left without a look back? Come on, it's not just that that's unflattering to him, I actually just can't buy it, it's too OOC, the complete opposite of what he's done *every* time he's been left on his own before. EVEN WHEN HE WAS SOULLESS. And that doesn't even add up with the end of S7 specifically, when the big cliffhanger for him was that he was completely alone in the post-Leviathan office building and looking really fragile. Does he even know how to fix cars? Dean always seems to be doing that by himself. Well anyway. This all felt to me like it was written by people who didn't actually watch SPN, maybe just mainlined a few episodes here and there from S6 and S7 to catch up and then bullshitted through the script. I know that's not *actually* the case, but that's how the episode seemed to me.

 

I have a friend who has gotten into the show over the last couple years -- with the seasons broadcasting now -- and I was saying the other day that the early seasons are good and we should watch some of the old episodes together sometime. But if she likes this pod-person SPN, Idk if she's even going to like original flavor!

[Demented Daisy]

Dean now thinks that hunting monsters in Purgatory was "pure"? HE GOT THERE BY KILLING THE LEVIATHAN. It's not like hunting monsters there was so totally different from his regular life, in which he also constantly hunted monsters, it was just worse.

 

In a way, it was different.  In Purgatory, it was kill or be killed.  There were no moral quandaries over good vs bad monsters.  They were all monsters who were trying to kill him.  He didn't have to think, he only had to defend himself.

 

So, yeah, maybe "pure" isn't the best word.  But I can't think of a better one.

[rue721]

In a way, it was different.  In Purgatory, it was kill or be killed.  There were no moral quandaries over good vs bad monsters.  They were all monsters who were trying to kill him.  He didn't have to think, he only had to defend himself.

 

So, yeah, maybe "pure" isn't the best word.  But I can't think of a better one.

 

Dean was pretty black-and-white pre-Purgatory, though. He could kill Amy even in front of her kid because he believed it was the right thing to do, etc. While in Purgatory, how he saw monsters actually became greyer -- it must have, he teamed up with Benny and apparently genuinely cared about him.

 

In general, I don't really understand the idea of killing or dying in Purgatory. Isn't everyone there already dead? Where do they go once they die there?

[Demented Daisy]

Dean was pretty black-and-white pre-Purgatory, though. He could kill Amy even in front of her kid because he believed it was the right thing to do, etc. While in Purgatory, how he saw monsters actually became greyer -- it must have, he teamed up with Benny and apparently genuinely cared about him.

 

Except that way back in season 2, Dean (and Sam) stopped Gordon from killing Lenore.  After that, he had a grey area when it came to monsters -- do they kill humans?  If so, they have to die.  If not, well, he was open to saving them.  He just had to be persuaded.

 

In Purgatory, Benny helped him instead of attacking.  Easy decision.  In a kill-or-be-killed situation, you take the allies where you can get them.

 

In general, I don't really understand the idea of killing or dying in Purgatory. Isn't everyone there already dead? Where do they go once they die there?

 

 

That, I have no idea.  But then, I always wondered what happened to demon souls.  I mean, they're already dead.  Do they just wink out of existence, in any form?  If so, maybe that's what happens to the monsters in Purgatory.

[catrox14]

I think monsters die on Earth and go to Purgatory. If they die in Purgatory that is the true

death. I think demons are sent back to hell. Or like Sam with Alistair they die inside the meatsuit. Now with Dean his own soul was in his meatsuit so if Sam had killed Dean whilst he was demon IMO Dean goes to hell. Unless they do the ritual like with Dean and reprogram the soul and if the person dies they will either go to heaven or hell but not Purgatory

Edited December 2, 2014 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

I think monsters die on Earth and go to Purgatory. If they die in Purgatory that is the true death. I think demons are sent back to hell. Or like Sam with Alistair they die inside the meatsuit. Now with Dean his own soul was in his meatsuit so if Sam had killed Dean whilst he was demon IMO Dean goes to hell. Unless they do the ritual like with Dean and reprogram the soul and if the person dies they will either go to heaven or hell but not Purgatory

 

I'm not so sure about what happens to monsters if they die in Purgatory, but I don't think they die die. If they did, my guess is that there wuoldn't be very many monsters left in purgatory - and Castiel supposedly sucked in millions of monster souls. My theory is that they don't die, but just come back - which is what I would love to have seen for either Dean or Benny: one of them getting killed and the other having to go find him again. There was some monster somewhere in the show who mentioned that purgatory was where monsters go to prey on each other for all eternity, so for me that implied they don't really die even when they are "killed." Or I would think the leviathans would've chomped everybody else by that point given how they are.

 

But I don't really know. That's just my conjecture.

[DittyDotDot]

I'm not so sure about what happens to monsters if they die in Purgatory, but I don't think they die die. If they did, my guess is that there wuoldn't be very many monsters left in purgatory - and Castiel supposedly sucked in millions of monster souls. My theory is that they don't die, but just come back - which is what I would love to have seen for either Dean or Benny: one of them getting killed and the other having to go find him again. There was some monster somewhere in the show who mentioned that purgatory was where monsters go to prey on each other for all eternity, so for me that implied they don't really die even when they are "killed." Or I would think the leviathans would've chomped everybody else by that point given how they are.

 

But I don't really know. That's just my conjecture.

 

I love this idea and now wish we'd have an episode that actually explored this. It could be like a video game and when you die you get sent back to start. That's a very terrible afterlife. However, I think it would make sense that if Dean got killed in Purgatory he'd be dead, for reals, since he was transported to Purgatory in his human form.

[rue721]

Except that way back in season 2, Dean (and Sam) stopped Gordon from killing Lenore.  After that, he had a grey area when it came to monsters -- do they kill humans?  If so, they have to die.  If not, well, he was open to saving them.  He just had to be persuaded.

 

In Purgatory, Benny helped him instead of attacking.  Easy decision.  In a kill-or-be-killed situation, you take the allies where you can get them.

 

I think the more "grey area" choices that Dean made pre-Purgatory were to stay loyal to Sam, regardless of Sam's "monster-esque" problems like his powers and demon blood drinking, and to sort of work with demons before, like when he made the Crossroads deal. I mean grey as in "who is a monster?" and "are monsters enemies?" not morally grey. I don't think that any of those choices are morally wrong or even that morally grey. I'm thinking black/white as in monster/human, not wrong/right.

 

The biggest difference between Dean's life on earth v. in Purgatory seems to me that on earth, he had Sam as his partner, and in Purgatory, he had Benny. Seems like it's actually *more* confusing to work with an actual monster in Purgatory than it is to work with your "troubled" human brother on earth, not purer. I guess in Purgatory, he didn't have to protect anyone but himself, though, which is purer in a sense. Like, purely out for yourself. Well, except for maybe Benny, and maybe Cas (not sure about Cas -- I don't remember much about Purgatory except what's in this specific episode).

 

My theory is that they don't die, but just come back - which is what I would love to have seen for either Dean or Benny: one of them getting killed and the other having to go find him again. There was some monster somewhere in the show who mentioned that purgatory was where monsters go to prey on each other for all eternity, so for me that implied they don't really die even when they are "killed." Or I would think the leviathans would've chomped everybody else by that point given how they are.

 

Spin off! :P

[DittyDotDot]

I think the more "grey area" choices that Dean made pre-Purgatory were to stay loyal to Sam, regardless of Sam's "monster-esque" problems like his powers and demon blood drinking, and to sort of work with demons before, like when he made the Crossroads deal. I mean grey as in "who is a monster?" and "are monsters enemies?" not morally grey. I don't think that any of those choices are morally wrong or even that morally grey. I'm thinking black/white as in monster/human, not wrong/right.

 

I think the grey area, pre-Purgatory was when Sam and Dean used to debate where that line was of killing things. Who are they to decide who lives or dies? If they let them go and they kill someone, is that blood on their hands? How far is too far? In Purgatory, there were none of these decisions. There was no time to spend pondering over whether it was the right thing or not--it was kill or be killed. No more wringing his hands over every kill and wondering if he did the right thing; no more worrying about his doomed soul.

 

I'd think it would be very freeing if you never had to ponder if your making the right decisions, you just keep fighting and moving on to the next battle. It's warrior mentality. In war, you don't stop and wonder if the people shooting at you have a son or a daughter, a house and a dog; maybe they're just like you? No, you shoot back or you die. That's why I think Dean felt it was pure. He never had to worry whether he was making the right choices, only needed to act.

[AwesomO4000]

I love this idea and now wish we'd have an episode that actually explored this. It could be like a video game and when you die you get sent back to start. That's a very terrible afterlife. However, I think it would make sense that if Dean got killed in Purgatory he'd be dead, for reals, since he was transported to Purgatory in his human form.

 

But Dean didn't eat? (Am I remembering that correctly that he didn't?) so he had to have been "dead." But you're right, he was human so if he "died" in purgatory, theoretically he'd maybe have ended up in heaven. In that case, it would've had to be Benny that got "killed" and they would've had to find each other again. Would Dean do it? Especially if it would take time away from his searching for Castiel, and so he'd have to choose. And especially if as you propose, it would mean having to go back to a "starting point," so that Dean would have to go backwards to find Benny. I would love to have seen that explored.

Spin off! :P

 

I love this idea. It could revisit some of the monsters we've seen - both good and bad - over the course of the show. So much potential with Lenore, Gordon, Dick the leviathan, Amy, Benny could show up again, etc. Then every once in a while a series "regular" character could end up having to go there for whatever reason. Oh and who cares if it makes sense! Have Hendricksen there - say that Lilith sent him there instead, I don't care: we'd get Hendricksen. Oh crap never mind... he came back as a spirit in season 5. Burst my bubble there.

[rue721]

I'd think it would be very freeing if you never had to ponder if your making the right decisions, you just keep fighting and moving on to the next battle. It's warrior mentality. In war, you don't stop and wonder if the people shooting at you have a son or a daughter, a house and a dog; maybe they're just like you? No, you shoot back or you die. That's why I think Dean felt it was pure. He never had to worry whether he was making the right choices, only needed to act.

 

I agree to the extent that I think that's what the show was going for by saying that life in Purgatory felt "purer" to Dean.

 

The thing for me is that Dean originally *had* been much more black-and-white about the monster issue (which John had seemed to be previously, too, which was why I figured Dean originally found Gordan's POV tempting after John died). He'd actually bought into the "shoot first, ask questions later" mentality for a *long* time. It was *Sam* who always had a greyer mentality toward that question and who kept pushing Dean to be more thoughtful about what constituted a "monster" (was someone a monster based on their individual intent/choices, or was it an intrinsic thing about their "being," etc). Not that Sam judged on a case-by-case basis entirely or even for the most part either, he just did that more than Dean and encouraged Dean not to take such a hardline stance toward it. And he pushed Dean not to be such a purist, too, not just through his own ideas about it, but because of Sam's own "flirtations" (willing and not) with becoming a monster. Anyway, so Dean had grown *away* from being a purist over time and with his brother's encouragement, so it actually seems in line with that for him to be able to ally with Benny in Purgatory, and to judge Benny based on his individual actions there (i.e., his worth and trustworthiness as far as being a "hunting" partner) and to not to draw a hard line based simply on Benny being a vampire. I think that was continued character growth on Dean's part, I don't think that was a bad thing. If he'd taken more of a hardline toward Benny, I think that would actually have been either stasis or a downright regression. But it doesn't seem like a move toward further "purity."

 

In terms of Dean's life in Purgatory being purely about fighting and hunting monsters -- his life was already 95% about fighting and hunting monsters even before he went to Purgatory. He'd already given up basically all his hopes for a family or other parts of his life for hunting, too. He even got to Purgatory by stabbing the Leviathan leader through the neck -- he got there *during* a fight with a primeval monster. I mean, yeah, in Purgatory he had even fewer dealings with regular humans or non-monster-hunting life, because there weren't *any* other humans and wasn't *any* other non-monster-hunting life, but that just seems like his regular life turned up a notch to me, since he was already all about hunting and had to deal with monsters CONSTANTLY. Even outside of Purgatory, he's spent like one year of his life only freaking out about monsters and hunting and mourning people who he'd lost to that, rather than actively fighting/hunting himself.

 

So for Dean to be like, "Purgatory was so different!" doesn't really make sense to me. He was being more black-and-white in terms of seeing monsters in a completely dehumanized way there in some ways, but he was also meanwhile working shoulder-to-shoulder with a vampire and even growing to care about that vampire as a "who" rather than a "what." That doesn't seem like a move toward greater ideological "purity"? He was even further divorced from humanity and human life in Purgatory, but he'd struggled a lot with being too divorced from humanity and human life and just being alone/isolated previously -- it was probably worse in Purgatory, but it wasn't something he was unfamiliar with or didn't have to deal with *a lot* in the regular world. If anything, I would think that the threat to his *own* humanity that being in Purgatory represented would have felt like a threat that he was becoming *impure.* Purgatory was different from the regular world, but imo for Dean it was a difference of degree (*more* violent, *more* monsters, etc) and not a categorical difference, and the difference would have been forcing Dean to question himself (and his humanity) and his old assumptions (about what it means to be a monster) more, not less, anyway.

 

I know they were trying to draw this really heavy handed comparison between being in Purgatory and being in a war, and the thing of "it was so pure" is part of that, but the idea just didn't work for me, not because the comparison/metaphor is terrible in general (I think it could have worked for other characters), but because of Dean and his circumstances specifically -- he hadn't been living in peace before going to Purgatory, he has pretty much never *not* been in the middle of a war. Purgatory was a different front (theater?) than "regular old America," but it was still a different front within the same war that he'd been fighting since he was four (ffs!) and he was even fighting against the same (literally! the EXACT same!) enemy in Purgatory as he'd been for nearly his entire life until then.

 

Actually, to go back to the S7 finale, I think maybe it would have been a more interesting setup to send Sam to Purgatory and to have Dean stuck alone in the regular world. Sam had been left alone a few times, and he's usually been the one who's gone off on his own generally, and each time, he's all about work (even when "work" was college, apparently). Since he's decided to be a hunter for good (meaning, since maybe S2?), he's always doubled down on the hunting and otherwise pretty much isolated himself whenever left alone. Even within S7, he was having trouble even getting out of his head and was sort of holing up within himself. So to have him stuck alone in the regular world -- the only difference this time was that he seemed relatively fragile given the events of S7 (imo) but was also presumably strong enough to keep hunting if he wanted to. The thing with Amelia came utterly out of left field and I just couldn't buy it, personally, because he'd never, even *without a soul* and even when completely *delusional,* had a problem with being alone or questioned his commitment to hunting. So to see him forced to *really* double down on hunting in Purgatory and seeing how he'd come back from that and whether *he* would team up with anyone there, seems like it would be pretty interesting. Meanwhile, Dean clearly is not a lone wolf, he even stuck with Sam when everyone was explicitly saying that Sam was a "what" rather than a "who" (when Sam was soulless), and he has looooong been much more ambivalent about hunting in terms of how much sacrifice and horror that life exposes him to, and with Lisa and Ben out of the picture, I'm not at all sure what he'd have decided to do with his life if left entirely alone in the regular world. I don't know that he'd have had the heart to continue hunting on his own, but I also don't think he thought he had any non-hunting options at that point. It would have been interesting to see what choices he would have made if left entirely up to his own devices like that. ANYWAY. I guess it's irrelevant, that's just how I would have preferred things to have been set up.

 

 

But Dean didn't eat? (Am I remembering that correctly that he didn't?) so he had to have been "dead." But you're right, he was human so if he "died" in purgatory, theoretically he'd maybe have ended up in heaven. In that case, it would've had to be Benny that got "killed" and they would've had to find each other again. Would Dean do it? Especially if it would take time away from his searching for Castiel, and so he'd have to choose. And especially if as you propose, it would mean having to go back to a "starting point," so that Dean would have to go backwards to find Benny. I would love to have seen that explored.

 

 

I love this idea. It could revisit some of the monsters we've seen - both good and bad - over the course of the show. So much potential with Lenore, Gordon, Dick the leviathan, Amy, Benny could show up again, etc. Then every once in a while a series "regular" character could end up having to go there for whatever reason. Oh and who cares if it makes sense! Have Hendricksen there - say that Lilith sent him there instead, I don't care: we'd get Hendricksen. Oh crap never mind... he came back as a spirit in season 5. Burst my bubble there.

 

Tbh, if I'd been Dean, I would have just let myself die in Purgatory, to see what would happen. Because really, what did he even have to lose at that point?

 

But yeah, the idea of a Purgatory-based spinoff, or at least taking a character from Purgatory for a spinoff, actually sounds pretty cool to me! Wouldn't Henriksen (and Bobby?) have been in Purgatory at that point anyway, since they were finally killed when they were "monsters" (i.e., spirits)?

[DittyDotDot]

In terms of Dean's life in Purgatory being purely about fighting and hunting monsters -- his life was already 95% about fighting and hunting monsters even before he went to Purgatory.

 

I guess the difference for me is pre-Purgatory wasn't only killing monsters. There were other activities too: Arguing with Sam, drinking, eating, sex, driving, etc.--according to Chuck they went to an occasional baseball game and apparently they went to Vegas yearly also. In Purgatory it was killing things 24/7. Nothing else.

 

 

The thing for me is that Dean originally *had* been much more black-and-white about the monster issue (which John had seemed to be previously, too, which was why I figured Dean originally found Gordan's POV tempting after John died). He'd actually bought into the "shoot first, ask questions later" mentality for a *long* time.

 

I think Dean accepts the black and white to make the job easier, and can compartmentalize his self doubt better than Sam, doesn't mean he doesn't contemplate what all this killing has turned him into and feel guilty about things. If Dean didn't concern himself with any of these questions, he wouldn't be the big 'ole ball of guilt he is. In Purgatory, he had none of that guilt, just pure fighting.

[rue721]

I think Dean accepts the black and white to make the job easier, and can compartmentalize his self doubt better than Sam, doesn't mean he doesn't contemplate what all this killing has turned him into and feel guilty about things. If Dean didn't concern himself with any of these questions, he wouldn't be the big 'ole ball of guilt he is. In Purgatory, he had none of that guilt, just pure fighting.

 

I agree that he compartmentalizes as a practical measure, but that those feelings/thoughts still exist. Dean doesn't seem like a very black-and-white thinker generally/naturally, but I agree that he needs to think that way when it comes to monsters specifically because his job is to kill them. They have to be completely dehumanized in his mind in order for him to do that in good conscience. I actually think that the reason why Sam doesn't need to enforce such a hard, cut-and-dried line in the same way is because he's *naturally* more of a black-and-white thinker and has more of a natural tendency to compartmentalize in general.

 

What I don't get is why it actually would be different/easier in Purgatory, where Dean's humanity would be even more in question (since there aren't even any other human beings for him to connect with or calibrate himself to), and where his hunting partner/bff is a monster himself? He's fighting the exact same monsters as he always did, so there's no difference in who he's actually fighting in Purgatory rather than on earth, just a difference in terms of volume and in terms of support.

 

I think the Purgatory storyline could have been really cool. Maybe it was better than I (very vaguely) remember, though. S8 is basically a blur in my mind, tbh, and I've only rewatched this one episode from it (so far).

 

 

I guess the difference for me is pre-Purgatory wasn't only killing monsters. There were other activities too: Arguing with Sam, drinking, eating, sex, driving, etc.--according to Chuck they went to an occasional baseball game and apparently they went to Vegas yearly also. In Purgatory it was killing things 24/7. Nothing else.

 

He seemed to try to recreate this as best he could in Purgatory. Or maybe not *tried,* I don't think he was actively trying to do it, but I think he did recreate it as best he could, he didn't/couldn't actually transform himself into HuntingBot3000 even though that probably would have been easier and better for him. It probably would have been better/easier to be Soulless Dean in Purgatory, but Soulless Dean wasn't an option. It seemed like he genuinely cared about Benny, for sure. Which I would expect, since they were side-by-side in mortal danger for day after day, and because Dean generally isn't heartless, I don't think that was a bad or strange thing. But I mean, whether he wanted to or not, he was still going to have a side to himself other than just Dean-the-Killer, because that other side of himself basically IS himself. I thought that was a fundamental point of the Soulless Sam storyline?

 

Oh! The idea of HunterBot3000 reminds me of my favorite part of the whole episode. Well, I also loved the beginning scene, when those kids were out camping in the wilderness and I was so primed for a monster to leap out of them -- and then Dean appeared instead, wild-eyed and frightening. But my favorite part was when Dean got to the cabin and saw Sam. After he jumped onto Sam and splattered him with holy water and all that, and then started doing all the "supernatural tests" to himself, and Sam told him he didn't need to, this was obviously Dean -- I loved the "Sam! Tut-tut!" look that Dean gave Sam. LOL if Sam didn't know it was his big brother before, there was no doubt after that!

[DittyDotDot]

What I don't get is why it actually would be different/easier in Purgatory, where Dean's humanity would be even more in question (since there aren't even any other human beings for him to connect with or calibrate himself to), and where his hunting partner/bff is a monster himself? He's fighting the exact same monsters as he always did, so there's no difference in who he's actually fighting in Purgatory rather than on earth, just a difference in terms of volume and in terms of support.

 

I think he had shut down that "human" part of himself in order to survive and is what freed him in someways. In Purgatory, this is the status quo; kill everything because it's trying to kill you. That makes it really simple and clean. He didn't have to think anymore, he operated mostly on pure instinct.  In the real world he can't just act solely on instinct because not everything is so black and white. Not everything is out to get you nor is everyone a monster.

Edited December 3, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[rue721]

I think he had shut down that "human" part of himself in order to survive and is what freed him in someways. In Purgatory, this is the status quo; kill everything because it's trying to kill you. That makes it really simple and clean. He didn't have to think anymore, he operated mostly on pure instinct.  In the real world he can't just act solely on instinct because not everything is so black and white. Not everything is out to get you nor is everyone a monster.

 

That makes sense, that it would be easier for him to put his humanity in a little box and lock it away while he was there, since it was *never* going to have to come out of that box and be put to use as long as he was in Purgatory. Unlike when he was spending 24-7 with his brother, and at least some time in the regular world, and having to trot out his humanity at least daily because of that.

 

Btw, that makes me think about how whenever Sam sees that Dean is having trouble, he asks if Dean wants to "talk about it"? IIrc, he even did that in this episode when they were hanging out in the motel room. I don't understand that. Even if Dean ever actually said yes, he did want to talk about it, what does Sam even envision the conversation being?

 

Sample Conversation:

Dean:  [feelings].

Dean/Sam/Bobby/Whoever:  Suck it up.

Dean takes a drink.

Sam:  I think I've found a job! [Weird supernatural thing + lore].

Dean:  [joke].

Sam:  [fond eyeroll].

[AwesomO4000]

Sample Conversation:

Dean:  [feelings].

Dean/Sam/Bobby/Whoever:  Suck it up.

Dean takes a drink.

Sam:  I think I've found a job! [Weird supernatural thing + lore].

Dean:  [joke].

Sam:  [fond eyeroll].

 

I thought that Sam did a fairly good job - considering his hallucination problem - in season 7 when he actually did get Dean to talk: for example "The Mentalists," the problem was that didn't usually happen on Dean's end even if Sam opened up good conversation opportunities. Off the top of my head there was an attempt in the Amazon episode, "Mannequin 3: the Reckoning," and "Season 7, Time for a Wedding." In fact Sam spent a lot of the season telling Dean the opposite of "suck it up." He was telling Dean often that Dean should go get some help and/ or that he needed to take care of himself.

 

For some strange reason, however, Carver decided that he'd rather have a cold, distant Sam who wanted a "normal life" and chucked the Sam from season 7 who cared about Dean, and gave us whoever this weirdo Sam is that we had in this episode.

[Iguana]

I think the purity that Dean found in purgatory related more to its simplicity. He no longer had the weight of the world on his shoulders. He wasn't fighting to save all of humanity or defeat Lucifer or deal with maybe killing his friends and family. There was no one telling him that he was wrong or weak or couldn't win no matter what he did. His goals were clear: kill or be killed, find Cas, get to the portal out of purgatory. I can see how that clarity of purpose, the life of focus without distractions, could be very appealing to Dean, almost a relief, after the endless moral dilemmas and lose/lose choices and soul crushing guilt that he had been dealing with for so many years.

[rue721]

I thought that Sam did a fairly good job - considering his hallucination problem - in season 7 when he actually did get Dean to talk: for example "The Mentalists," the problem was that didn't usually happen on Dean's end even if Sam opened up good conversation opportunities. Off the top of my head there was an attempt in the Amazon episode, "Mannequin 3: the Reckoning," and "Season 7, Time for a Wedding." In fact Sam spent a lot of the season telling Dean the opposite of "suck it up." He was telling Dean often that Dean should go get some help and/ or that he needed to take care of himself.

 

For some strange reason, however, Carver decided that he'd rather have a cold, distant Sam who wanted a "normal life" and chucked the Sam from season 7 who cared about Dean, and gave us whoever this weirdo Sam is that we had in this episode.

 

I always assume Sam's genuinely trying to reach out to his brother when he asks if he "wants to talk about it," I just don't really understand how he envisions the ideal version of that conversation going, since it would be pretty bizarre for Dean to start spilling his guts at a vague, awkward question like that. And to be honest, I doubt many people would. Who's like, "Oh yes, I did want to talk about it. This is going to be such a fun and not at all horrible conversation talking about at least one bad thing. Let's also do it in a small, enclosed space like the motel room or car..."?

 

Thinking about the conversations you bring up, though, they were mostly yell-y "we're not really fighting but we'll act like it so nobody feels uncomfortably vulnerable!!1!" convos, as far as I remember (though I don't remember all of them). Like the one from The Mentalists, when Dean lit into Sam about how killing Amy was him doing Sam's dirty work and that Sam needed to stop being a little bitch about it, which would have resulted in a humiliating screaming fight right then and there on the sidewalk if I were in Sam's shoes, but actually resulted in Sam meeting up with Dean at the end of the episode to start traveling with him again (go figure). Or in Slice Girls, when Sam is driving super fast and then starts yelling at Dean that Dean needs to take more care not to die, and the "fight" only ends when Dean calls Sam "big" as an attempt at an insult and it's obvious that the conversation has sputtered to a close. So maybe asking Dean if he "wants to talk about it" is mostly a gesture on Sam's part, to show he's noticed when Dean's not feeling right? And if they actually need to have a conversation for real, they start yelling at each other? You know, like normal people.

 

Also, you're right, it's Dean who tells people to suck it up (or "button it up" or whatever other euphemism for it) (afaik, he's never used the euphemism that ime is the most popular, though, saying someone needs to keep his "eyes on the prize." I can't even hear that phrase anymore without letting out the most aggravated sigh possible, it's muscle memory at this point. It's difficult for me to keep from sighing right now just typing it). IIrc, Sam usually goes for the sad eyes and maybe a question or awkward silence instead. I know that Dean's heart was in the right place and that it's the kind of "pep talk" that he's used to getting himself, but I felt bad when (in S7) Sam would say or do something that worried/scared Dean, and Dean would respond by trying to be somewhat "tough love" with Sam and telling him he needed to get it together. That's when I noticed that Dean had apparently become a Just Suck It Up enthusiast. He seemed like he was just trying his best to keep Sam on the straight and narrow so that Sam wouldn't shatter into a million pieces, he literally told Sam he'd be his rock ffs, but it would always make me wince when he'd demand Sam straighten up, because Sam kept saying that he was getting screamed at and harassed inside his head all the time and the thought of Dean inadvertently joining in with Lucifer in making Sam feel bad was just so depressing.

 

Anyway, sorry for the tangent! Which still doesn't really help make any sense of why Carver decided to replace the mains with pod people in this premier, but hey, I don't think that was ever going to make any sense (but...why did they do it?!).

 

I think the purity that Dean found in purgatory related more to its simplicity. He no longer had the weight of the world on his shoulders. He wasn't fighting to save all of humanity or defeat Lucifer or deal with maybe killing his friends and family. There was no one telling him that he was wrong or weak or couldn't win no matter what he did. His goals were clear: kill or be killed, find Cas, get to the portal out of purgatory. I can see how that clarity of purpose, the life of focus without distractions, could be very appealing to Dean, almost a relief, after the endless moral dilemmas and lose/lose choices and soul crushing guilt that he had been dealing with for so many years.

 

Yes, that makes sense, I agree in that case. His main job was "don't die," and he was apparently a raging success at it! I can see how the simplicity would be a relief. There wasn't some secret way he could be fucking up, nothing like that, everything was very straightforward in terms of what he had to do and the consequences were obviously, concrete, and immediate.

 

Though killing monsters, that you'd possibly already killed on earth anyway, just to have them pop up back in Purgatory to be killed again (and AGAIN?!) has got to be the definition of futile. I feel like the guys are competing for who got stuck in the worst Groundhog Day, because that is definitely a contender even against Mystery Spot for most-maddeningly-repetition-of-an-already-crummy-experience. Again, seems better to just take your chances and die. But for all I know, Dean even did that. Past this episode, I'm not sure that I remember anything from S8. (Not to worry about spoilers or anything, I've definitely seen it. It just evidently didn't stick).

[DittyDotDot]

Finally got to S8 on the rewatch. Seriously, what's up with that? This was supposed to be a summer re-watch--it's snowing outside today. WTF.

 

Anyway, the start of this episode is really fairly solid, and, for the most part, I don't dislike the episode, but somehow it feels more akin to a soap opera. I'm not saying the writing is soapy, exactly. I think its the pacing of the episode and I think they're taking themselves way too seriously. What fun that does exist feels really precious somehow rather than quirky whimsy that has made this show unique in the past. Even the flashbacks to Purgatory feel overly sentimental--which I realize kinda makes sense because Dean's feeling kinda nostalgic about Purgatory and all, but it feels like it's too sentimental. And that scene in the hotel with Dean sitting on the floor--I don't know, melodrama is the only word I can think of that fits. It doesn't make it automatically bad, per se, just makes me wonder exactly what show it is that I stumbled across.

 

I find Benny to be an interesting character, but I never trusted him and it mostly comes from he and Dean's first conversation in Purgatory. Also, his entire attitude after Dean resurrected him seemed like he was using Dean more than Dean's actual buddy, but that's probably just me. This is the season I started to wish they'd stab Crowley in his face though. He's really pretty one-note anymore, IMO. I have little to comment on about Amelia, it's mostly just nonsense with her anyway. And I do think the mysteries of how Dean got out of Purgatory and what Sam's been up to are interesting, just not well executed in the end. Don't even get me started on how much I hate flashbacks and how poorly I think they were filmed. So much story potential just got wasted and skipped over with this format, but I've probably flogged that poor dead horse enough.

 

I lose interest in the episode all together once they're at the college on the hunt for Kevin (I actually considered playing Solitaire for a minute or two while watching it). The episode picks back up some when they find Kevin--Kevin's demon traps and super soaker is rather entertaining to me as are his comments to his girlfriend about her going to her safety school--but I think it might be too late for me at that point.

 

The good to end on: Man In The Wilderness is a great song choice, especially for that scene.

Edited January 2, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[Goldmoon]

I just watched this for the first time last night.  I agree that Sam could have had PTSD himself and the writers could have worked with that, but their motivations for him didn't gel.  When he found Dean in the cabin, Sam acted like Dean had been on a vacation in another state.  Seriously, I expected some emotion and got nothing.  Jensen played PTSD beautifully -what else would I expect of him other than some of the best acting around? - and since I just actually watched the first eight eps of this season, I wish they had worked more with the PTSD.  They sort of dropped it.  My impression of purgatory was that Dean didn't sleep at all.  That somehow his physical needs were suspended and he was awake and being attacked 24/7 for a year.  I really enjoyed the Purgatory flashbacks and the way they were doled out over several episodes.  I loved Benny's actor when he was the Robot Sheriff Andy in Eureka so it was a pleasure to find him here.  Everyone has weighed in on Amelia already so I will abstain.  I'm glad the dog lived.

[GirlyGeek]

Only 3 words could sum up this episode:  what the frak?

Seriously, I agree with most everything written here about Sam and the OOC craziness.  I've never been one to gel with Sam much, as I find myself 'getting' Dean much more as a character, but even I was shocked that this was the direction they were taking Sam and this was the story we were being fed.

Have the writers/showrunner ever addressed their HUGE f-up with season 8?  Cause it is BAD.

 

Have Jared and Jensen?  Cause I'm honestly surprised they 'let' this happen to Sam's character... if they had any ability to change it, which I don't know they did.  IDK, just awful.

 

Was Amelia supposed to be quirky/badass/hardcore?  Or just a bitch?  Cause I couldn't have hated her more right out of the gate than I did.  On re watch, I'm pretty sure I hated her more somehow, lol.  Really, *shaming* someone into taking an injured dog?  Why??!  I just don't get it, and I don't get how this got written and ok'd?

This is the point where I kinda gave up on Sam.  I'm just barely getting it back these days.  I won't go on and on about this mess.  I don't really remember S8, so I'm bracing myself for suckage.

[DittyDotDot]

Have the writers/showrunner ever addressed their HUGE f-up with season 8?  Cause it is BAD.

 

Have Jared and Jensen?  Cause I'm honestly surprised they 'let' this happen to Sam's character... if they had any ability to change it, which I don't know they did.  IDK, just awful.

 

TPTB pretty much just skirted the issue, IMO. Carver seemed to get really defensive about it towards the end of S8, and I remember reading an article where he basically said he had nothing else to say on the subject. I remember thinking, "have you said anything on the subject?" But, I'm not sure they think it's a problem anyway because it seemed for as many of us fans that were going WTF, there were just as many saying Supernatural got it's groove back in S8. Some people really like S8, even though I generally see it as a mess.

 

Jared and Jensen are usually good team players and never come out and openly talk about things they don't like, which makes me respect them greatly. However, I got the feeling back in S8 Jared wasn't too keen on the idea. He did his press and stuff, but didn't have really much to say outside of the party line and his excitement level wasn't what it usually is at the beginning of the season. I think he's come out and said it wasn't one of his favorite storylines recently though. Jensen seemed really stoked for his stuff though and he's stated Purgatory was one of his favorite storylines.

 

Personally, I don't think it was just Sam that was out of character, but the whole show. I think I finally adjusted to the new tone of the show, but it hasn't been an easy ride, let me tell you! I've come to think TPTB get caught up in an idea, but that idea doesn't always work within this universe or with the characters they have, but they push forward anyway. So, I think they think they're doing one thing, but it doesn't translate to the audience they way they want it to. I think they don't have answers because I don't think they themselves really know what went wrong here.

 

As to Amelia: I don't know, I  didn't find her all that egregious, just didn't understand why she existed either--my issues were with what was going on with Sam and Dean. I think she was supposed to be snarky and quippy (but instead came off as bitchy), but also could be a person who could stand up to Sam and push Sam in a direction. I think Sam was looking for someone to tell him what to do and she did, so Sam kinda latches on to her, IMO. I don't think I'm explaining this well, but I think she was supposed to represent some version of Dean to a grieving and messed up Sam. I also think Benny was supposed to represent some version of Sam to Dean--brother in arms fighting the fight together. Personally, I don't think we're supposed to like Amelia or Benny, but supposed to be thinking both Sam and Dean are really screwed up right now.

[catrox14]

Okay. So this was on TNT this week...and I literally never noticed until just now that there was someone standing outside of Sam and Amelia's house in Texas.  Was that Dean?

[DittyDotDot]

It was never specifically said, in show. I've seen spec that it was Dean and also spec that it was Don, Amelia's husband. I don't know, there was a time when I wanted to know, but now...

[sarthaz]

I've been rewatching Season 8, and every now and then something will happen in an episode that reminds me of another time ... and I'll gaze into the distance ... and sink into a flashback ... to when our beloved show was great.  Irony.

[supposebly]

I'm having this season running in the background while grading exams, listening, not really watching.

That's the only way I can stand it.

I'm only at ep 1 and it occurs to me that Benny wouldn't really know where his bones are buried and Dean didn't really have time to do any research.

[DittyDotDot]

I remember wondering about that the first time around supposedly. It's weird because the grave wasn't marked, but Dean takes so many steps from that windmill...how the Hell did he know EXACTLY where Benny was planted?

[catrox14]

I think Benny and Dean had a couple of chats about how it was going to go and that Benny planned a long time ago that's where he wanted to be buried.  That's my fanwank anyway LOL

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Okay, so here I am.  It's actually been about a week since I watched this ep, and now I've watched several in between.  So I'm reading a synopsis to remind myself of what happened to I can try to remember what I thought/wanted to comment on while watching it.  I've been thinking I might need to go back and rewatch, but ::shivers:: I really don't want to do that.

• Why do campers on this show have the nicest tents?  I'll bet Dean freaked those campers out.  He's lucky he didn't get shot.  If he'd landed in Texas, he probably would have.  :)
• So Dean smuggled Benny's soul out of Purgatory in his arm?  Was that his soul?  And I was trying to keep this commentary 'clean' from future reference, but after the S11 finale and the soul bomb, etc, etc, etc. I'm so confused about Souls.  Do the monsters in Purgatory have souls?  If not, why not?  Especially if they were human first and turned into vampires, werewolves, etc.  Seems unfair to the ones who didn't want that that they would be stuck forever in Purgatory if only humans get a way out.  (Presumably because humans have a soul.  but am I wrong about that?  Especially since in S11 they wanted Crowley to get the demon souls - thought demons didn't have souls cause they got burnt away being in Hell? - for the soul bomb.  So apparently demons do have souls, cause that's also how Crowley gets his power?  And that's right, Cas sucked all the souls out of Purgatory to make himself God, but then he also sucked out the Leviathans, so do Leviathans also have souls?  Or maybe they don't and that's why they can't get out of Purgatory, like humans.  But then how was Cas able to suck out the souls in Purgatory to power himself up when there really aren't (or shouldn't be) any souls in there in the first place?  I'm so confused.  And I think I just talked myself in a circle.
• So if Dean was able to smuggle Benny out in his left arm, could he have theoretically smuggled another soul out in his right arm also?  What about his legs?  Damn, Dean could have made some serious bargains to put the devil to shame.  Not that he would, so don't no one get their panties in a wad.  I'm just bs'ing here.  
• Alright, so I don't think it was clear in retrospect: Did Sam know that Dean was back before he left Amelia?  Or did he leave Amelia and find Dean at the cabin.  When I first watched I thought it must be the first.  That the reason Sam left was because he found out Dean was back and went to meet him.  Otherwise, his comment about knowing Dean is not a shapeshifter, leviathan, etc makes no sense to me.  How would he know if he'd given up hunting for the past year?
• Yeah, okay, here we go on the Sam not looking for Dean and/or Kevin at all. That's just BS.  I get that he drifted.  But Sam's not stupid.  Even with Cas, and Bobby and Dean gone, Sam knew other hunters.  He met and worked with the Campbells and others (the ghost lady with whom both brothers were intimate) during the year he was Soulless, so I don't buy any excuse of he didn't know what to do and just gave Dean up for dead.  And just quit hunting cold turkey.  Nah.  That ain't right.  
• Kevin's smart.  He escaped Crowley with no help.  Figured out all the warding sigils, etc.  I wouldn't mind more Kevin.  Not too much though.
• Purgatory as greyscale was....weird.  I was going to say interesting, but I seem to say that a lot.  But it was interesting, and I wonder about the reason for that choice.  Of course, I wouldn't have expected it to be Alice in Wonderland colorful, but grey was odd too.  Maybe that is the reason.  Because it's odd.  
• I'm still confused about the souls.

[DittyDotDot]

Souls are a head scratcher on this show sometimes. I believe the monsters in Purgatorydo have souls because, in my opinion, monsters are basically mutated humans. Same with demons, but they're twisted humans. But they all have souls, except angels...I think. That was kinda the whole reason Crowley was trying to break into Purgatory in S6, was for the souls and the power they harnessed.

It's not always consistently written, but I assume everything has a soul if it's basically human. Leviathans and angels pre-date humanity, though, so I don't think they have souls.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Souls are a head scratcher on this show sometimes. I believe the monsters in Purgatorydo have souls because, in my opinion, monsters are basically mutated humans. Same with demons, but they're twisted humans. But they all have souls, except angels...I think. That was kinda the whole reason Crowley was trying to break into Purgatory in S6, was for the souls and the power they harnessed.

It's not always consistently written, but I assume everything has a soul if it's basically human. Leviathans and angels pre-date humanity, though, so I don't think they have souls.

That's kind of what I was thinking - that mutated human monster/demons have some sort of souls since they used to be human at least - until I kind of sort of talked myself out of it too.  

But boy, that sucks for someone like Kate in Bitten, who didn't want to be a Monster.  She never asked for it (unlike the little guy who went looking to get bit) and was turned against her will and even after she knew what she was, is trying (at the point we last saw her at the end of the ep.) to maintain as much of her humanity as possible.  So when she dies - even if she's killed without ever eating a human heart - she goes straight to Purgatory.  Do not pass Heaven.  Do not collect $200.  And once she's there, there is no way out.  Why?  What did she do that was so bad to get her sent there?  (That's a rhetorical question, in case anyone can't tell.)  I'd like it better if there was some way for Monsters Like Kate to move on.  

[DittyDotDot]

5 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Alright, so I don't think it was clear in retrospect: Did Sam know that Dean was back before he left Amelia?  Or did he leave Amelia and find Dean at the cabin.  When I first watched I thought it must be the first.  That the reason Sam left was because he found out Dean was back and went to meet him.  Otherwise, his comment about knowing Dean is not a shapeshifter, leviathan, etc makes no sense to me.  How would he know if he'd given up hunting for the past year?

I forgot to mention, I personally am of the opinion Sam left without knowing Dean was alive, but even three years later, there's some debate about this. So, you are correct that it wasn't entirely clear. Although, there's a little more information on this yet to come.

[Diane]

OK, so yes there are so many problems with this episode, but this one, of all things drives me crazy. Lol, we all have our things.

Dean slices his arm open to let Benny out and then slices said arm again in the cabin when Sam comes in, the same arm is healed and scar free.  I want some of the CW magic healing cream please!

[catrox14]

20 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I forgot to mention, I personally am of the opinion Sam left without knowing Dean was alive, but even three years later, there's some debate about this. So, you are correct that it wasn't entirely clear. Although, there's a little more information on this yet to come.

I've decided that Sam didn't know Dean was alive and his weird reactions to Dean's reappearance were a combination of WTF how are you alive? and WTF you weren't supposed to be here and WHY ARE YOU HERE and OH SHIT now I have to give up my life...but NO wait I already did that....

I've seen the argument that Sam had NO IDEA where to start looking for Dean so he didn't try but Sam knew that Purgatory was an option since that is from where the Leviathans came. And since Sam knew that demons and angels get blasted back to Hell and Heaven why didn't he think oh.. Purgatory...where all the monsters come from?

Sam seemed not to be surprised that Dean was in Purgatory but that he was in Purgatory for a year. Maybe that was just weird line readings from Jared.

See Also: Sam was stoned.

Edited June 3, 2016 by catrox14