Woodstone Manor: The I-saac Sees All (Spoilers&Speculation)

[Annber03]

4 hours ago, Neptune said:

https://www.tvinsider.com/gallery/ghosts-season-4-halloween-episode-photos/#2

You know, in that first photo of Sam in that dress, with her hair up like that, I can really see the resemblance to Hetty :). 

[BMGepinniw]

5 hours ago, Neptune said:

https://www.tvinsider.com/gallery/ghosts-season-4-halloween-episode-photos/#2

Rose (Sam) looks gorgeous in her costume pictures.  I got a big chuckle at the one with her carrying the huge decorated pumpkin.  They're a season too late, since they could have used that in Season 3 to cover her IRL baby tummy LOL!  

[Neptune]

1 hour ago, Annber03 said:

You know, in that first photo of Sam in that dress, with her hair up like that, I can really see the resemblance to Hetty :). 

They do resemble each other

[Annber03]

I've seen that video before, yeah! So cute :D. If they ever need to do a flashback of Hetty when she was around Sam's age, guess they've got their casting for those scenes :p. 

[Neptune]

https://www.avclub.com/ghosts-season-4-review

[Annber03]

Sounds like a good start to the season. Can't wait for Thursday!

[Neptune]

The GHOSTSmas special, “A Very Arondekar Christmas Part 1” and “A Very Arondekar Christmas Part 2,” will see a leaky water heater mishap threaten to ruin holiday plans as Sam and Jay prepare to host Jay’s hard-to-please dad, difficult-to-impress mom and sister Bela (Punam Patel).

Champa (Jaffrey) is Jay’s doting mother who has much less patience for her daughter-in-law Sam (McIver), whom she blames for Jay moving far away from them. Champa runs the family’s text chain, known as the “Core Four,” which Sam is desperate to be allowed onto. 

Although Mahesh (White) secretly respects his son’s culinary talents, he’s still hopeful his son will become an engineer instead of relying on the high-risk businesses of the B&B and the restaurant
https://deadline.com/2024/10/ghosts-rose-mciver-directing-sakina-jaffrey-and-bernard-white-christmas-special-1236120946/

This will be a pretty different Christmas for Jay, since he'll not only have to please his family members but also deal with the fact that now, like Sam in the past three seasons, he can see and hear the ghosts that inhabit Woodstone Mansion. Additionally, he'll have to deal with the fact that his mother blames Sam for his son moving away and that his father still expects him to forget about running a B&B and pursuing a career as an engineer.

https://collider.com/ghosts-christmas-special-2024-date/
 

thought jay seeing ghosts was going to be one episode

[Neptune]

 

https://www.tvinsider.com/1157854/ghosts-season-4-xmas-episode-jay-parents-sakina-jaffrey-bernard-white-rose-mciver-directing/

[Annber03]

1 hour ago, Neptune said:

.thought jay seeing ghosts was going to be one episode

I don't know that they ever said how long he'd be able to see the ghosts, they just said he'd see them. I think the length of time he'd see them has been more fan speculation than anything. 

But yeah, we got a LOT of good spoilers from the NYCC panel today. I'll see if I can find a link to the panel and share it at some point. 

ETA: Here's an article with some of the other big spoilers:

https://tvline.com/previews/ghosts-alexander-hamilton-appearance-halloween-witch-trial-episode-1235352203/

Edited October 20 by Annber03

[kathyk2]

2 hours ago, Neptune said:

 

https://www.tvinsider.com/1157854/ghosts-season-4-xmas-episode-jay-parents-sakina-jaffrey-bernard-white-rose-mciver-directing/

I feel bad for Sam she has a mother-in-law who doesn't like her and her own mom is dead. I hope Jay will stand up for her.

[PaulE]

On 10/19/2024 at 8:21 PM, Neptune said:

Champa (Jaffrey) is Jay’s doting mother who has much less patience for her daughter-in-law Sam (McIver), whom she blames for Jay moving far away from them. Champa runs the family’s text chain, known as the “Core Four,” which Sam is desperate to be allowed onto. 

I hate to admit it, but I'm kind of looking forward to seeing Sam get the short end of the stick for a change instead of Jay.

[Neptune]

https://screenrant.com/7-clues-easter-eggs-in-ghosts-season-4s-new-opening-video/

[kathyk2]

On 10/20/2024 at 9:17 PM, PaulE said:

I hate to admit it, but I'm kind of looking forward to seeing Sam get the short end of the stick for a change instead of Jay.

I disagree Sam should have been included in the family group chat when she married Jay. It's especially mean when you realize that Sam's Mom is dead. 

[Neptune]

14 minutes ago, kathyk2 said:

I disagree Sam should have been included in the family group chat when she married Jay. It's especially mean when you realize that Sam's Mom is dead. 

they have two family chats. Sam was part of one already. 

[Bastet]

21 minutes ago, Neptune said:

they have two family chats. Sam was part of one already. 

I remember that and think it's fine.  There's one that includes her, and one that's just for the parents and siblings.  Unless they're using the latter to talk shit about her, there's nothing wrong with that.

[Neptune]

On 10/20/2024 at 7:17 PM, PaulE said:

I hate to admit it, but I'm kind of looking forward to seeing Sam get the short end of the stick for a change instead of Jay.

Sam’s treatment of jay keeps getting worse

[Neptune]

 

[Neptune]

 

[Neptune]

https://collider.com/ghosts-season-4-jays-new-ability-cast-reaction/

[Neptune]

Sneak peek episode 4 “work retreat”

https://www.cbsnews.com/video/asher-grodman-talks-ghosts-season-four-and-his-characters-new-role-in-the-real-world/

[shapeshifter]

6 minutes ago, PaulE said:

We've been teased that Jay will be able to see the ghosts at some point,

I don't recall that. I hope it's just my aging memory and not a spoiler.

[Chit Chat]

22 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I don't recall that. I hope it's just my aging memory and not a spoiler.

It's been in the media for a while now, but I can understand how someone might've missed it!   I'm usually so far behind on stuff like this, but I heard it discussed with some of the interviews with the cast.  

[kathyk2]

18 minutes ago, Chit Chat said:

I've been wondering if it'll be a temporary thing or if it's permanent.  I'd like to see it as permanent, mainly so Sam won't be able to get away with using the ghosts to get her way sometimes!  It would be fun to see Pete & Jay interacting on the trips to town.  

I've wanted Jay to see the ghosts from the beginning. Ghosts has the potential to be a modern Bewitched. I want to see Jay Flower and Pete watch a basketball game.

[PaulE]

33 minutes ago, Chit Chat said:

59 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I don't recall that. I hope it's just my aging memory and not a spoiler.

It's been in the media for a while now, but I can understand how someone might've missed it!   I'm usually so far behind on stuff like this, but I heard it discussed with some of the interviews with the cast.  

It was never hinted on the show, but it was mentioned in interviews with, I believe, some of the writers.  I can't, though, remember where I read it, only that I was pleased to hear it, because I've always wanted that for Jay.  I think it might also have been mentioned by some of the actors because i remember someone saying that it would allow Utkarsh to make eye contact with them for the first time.

[Browncoat]

8 minutes ago, Chit Chat said:

Respectfully, it's been known since the season started.  They were talking about it at Comic-Con too.  The spoiler is how it will happen.   Jay being able to see ghosts isn't considered a spoiler, but rather a 'tease.'

I didn't know it until I saw it in this thread.

[SoMuchTV]

42 minutes ago, Chit Chat said:

Respectfully, it's been known since the season started.  They were talking about it at Comic-Con too.  The spoiler is how it will happen.   Jay being able to see ghosts isn't considered a spoiler, but rather a 'tease.'

From the conversation in the Halloween episode thread about Jay being able to see ghosts… 

Maybe he can only see them when they’re off the property, so he can see Pete when they go on shopping trips and such?  But then, would he also see all the off-premises ghosts? Probably a little too complicated. 

[Annber03]

Yeah, I definitely think it'll be a temporary thing, this ability. I would prefer it that way, myself - I'm glad that he'll get to see the ghosts and get an idea of what they all look like and whatnot and get to know them a little better that way. And it's been sweet to hear the cast talking about how excited they are to get to directly interact with Utkarsh, too, so on that level I'm happy about this development as well.

But I also think a large part of what makes Jay's interaction with them so funny and sweet is that he can't see or hear them and yet he's still so invested in what's going on with them and cares about them and does stuff for them anyway. And the fact he can't see and hear them, and Sam can, makes for an interesting element of Sam and Jay's dynamic as well. 

So yeah, however they make it so Jay can see the ghosts, I think it would make sense for it to be a very brief thing, for the span of an episode or through a very specific type of situation that can't be recreated so easily. 

[kathyk2]

2 hours ago, Annber03 said:

Yeah, I definitely think it'll be a temporary thing, this ability. I would prefer it that way, myself - I'm glad that he'll get to see the ghosts and get an idea of what they all look like and whatnot and get to know them a little better that way. And it's been sweet to hear the cast talking about how excited they are to get to directly interact with Utkarsh, too, so on that level I'm happy about this development as well.

But I also think a large part of what makes Jay's interaction with them so funny and sweet is that he can't see or hear them and yet he's still so invested in what's going on with them and cares about them and does stuff for them anyway. And the fact he can't see and hear them, and Sam can, makes for an interesting element of Sam and Jay's dynamic as well. 

So yeah, however they make it so Jay can see the ghosts, I think it would make sense for it to be a very brief thing, for the span of an episode or through a very specific type of situation that can't be recreated so easily. 

I don't think it will be temporary since Sam's ability is permanent. I'd like to see Sam interact with ghosts outside of the mansion. Utkarsh must be bored acting by himself.

[Bastet]

I think they'd be fools to alter the dynamic by making Jay permanently able to see the ghosts, and the producers and writers have shown themselves not to be fools by declining to insert a baby into this show just because the actor was pregnant.

So many recurring beats of humor come from Jay not being able to see the ghosts:  Pete's yearning to be able to interact with Jay*, the ghosts having to figure out how to alert Jay to something when Sam isn't there, Sam lying to him that the ghosts agree with her, Jay's reactions to just hearing Sam's side of her conversations with the ghosts, etc. 

(*I'd like the episode where Jay can see the ghosts to be one where Pete is off the property, only to return right after Jay's temporary ability ends and cheerfully ask, "So, what did I miss?")

And some fundamental character/relationship elements come from it, too:  Sam is alone in this experience - seeing ghosts virtually everywhere they go and being hounded daily for favors by the Woodstone ghosts - but she feels very supported by Jay, and Jay mostly loves it for her but is frequently jealous of her relationship with them, while sometimes resenting it.

They'd lose too much by making Jay permanently able to see ghosts.

[Maelstrom]

My personal theory is that Jay takes some super strong cold medicine that leaves him able to see the ghosts while it's in his system 😆

[Chit Chat]

On 11/2/2024 at 7:26 PM, Annber03 said:

And the fact he can't see and hear them, and Sam can, makes for an interesting element of Sam and Jay's dynamic as well. 

Sam uses that to her advantage at Jay's expense many times.  Level the playing field!  I'm on board with Jay being able to see the ghosts permanently!  

[iMonrey]

I don't think the show runners want to change the fundamental dynamics of the show. Jay's inability to see the ghosts is half the humor of the show. I think what the show runners were hinting at may be sort of a tease or red herring. (Remember: they promised us, honest to God, that Flower was really gone.)

I'm wondering if maybe Jay will have a dream about the ghosts, and that's what the show runners meant. He's already seen Sass, since Sass can enter his dreams. Maybe he will dream about what the other ghosts look like, only they'll be played by different actors in his dream.

[Chit Chat]

33 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Maybe he will dream about what the other ghosts look like, only they'll be played by different actors in his dream.

In the interviews with the cast, they sound very convincing that Jay will be able to see them (not sure in what capacity or how long), and it will change the dynamic of their interaction with him (in a good way).  They joked that they would get to make eye contact with him in a scene now!  

As you said though, it could be a red herring, but it's a pretty good tease and I'm anxious to see how it plays out.  

[PaulE]

I agree with those of you who think Jay will only temporarily be able to interact with the ghosts.  As you've said, if it were permanent it would detract from the comedy.  I'd like it to be long enough just for him to get to know them a little better, which will then make a difference once he's back to not hearing or seeing them.  Like when Pete accompanies him in the car, he'll remember what Pete looked and sounded like even if he can't see him now, and he'll be more real to him.  And he'll get to know their personalities better if he can talk with them, even if that doesn't last.  

Of course, as has also been said elsewhere, the writers and producers aren't above messing with us, so we don't know what they actually mean by hinting that Jay will be able to communicate with the ghosts.  They've led us down the wrong path before, though I don't think they've ever outright lied, so there's got to be some way Jay will be able to see and hear the ghosts.  I like the idea of Sass being able to bring them into Jay's dreams--that would be one way of doing it.

[Lugal]

From what I read, it seems like Jay will be able to see the ghosts when his family is there for Christmas, which I think will be hilarious.

[Bastet]

3 minutes ago, Lugal said:

From what I read, it seems like Jay will be able to see the ghosts when his family is there for Christmas,

That's interesting, since Bela is the only other person who knows about the ghosts.  It's probably going to entertain the hell out of her watching not just Sam but Jay have to pretend there's nothing going on in front of the parents, all the while being jealous she can't see Trevor. 

[iMonrey]

16 hours ago, Lugal said:

From what I read, it seems like Jay will be able to see the ghosts when his family is there for Christmas, which I think will be hilarious.

Hmm. I wonder if they're going to do another possession story for the Christmas show. Maybe Jay's body will be possessed and Jay's spirit will be knocked out of his body, making him a temporary ghost.

Jay has already "seen" some of the ghosts. He's seen Trevor's picture, and he's seen Alberta on Todd's back, and of course he's met Sass in his dreams. He was possessed by Hetty and spoke with Thor when Thor possessed Sam. Ironically, one of the few ghosts he's neither seen nor heard is his best ghost friend Pete. Although I wonder if maybe he's seen a photo of him at some point. 

[Neptune]

https://screenrant.com/ghosts-boundary-woodstone-mansion-mystery-explanation-need/

[PaulE]

There have been several discussions about ghost boundary issues in this forum, and I think we pretty much agree there's not a lot of logic there.  i suspect the writers didn't think too much about it when they set up the boundary canon, and probably didn't take it into consideration when creating additional ghosts, so now things are in a bit of a mess.  I agree with the Screenrant writer that it would be interesting to delve into the mysteries of the boundary--the writers could get pretty creative if they take the mess and run with it.

[Chit Chat]

1 hour ago, PaulE said:

I agree with the Screenrant writer that it would be interesting to delve into the mysteries of the boundary--the writers could get pretty creative if they take the mess and run with it.

Maybe it could be that as time goes by, the ghosts are drawn to a particular area where there is a lot of ghost activity, so they become their own little realm or dimension.  Kind of like a vacuum getting sucked in rather than sucked off!! 

Then their little world kind of closes in on them and they end up with smaller boundaries.  Just a thought!!

 

[Annber03]

I would legit laugh if the show ends with them realizing there was an easy way for them to pass through the ghost boundary this whole time, but they, like Pete, just didn't realize it/take advantage of it for so long. I can totally see that happening :D. I do wonder now, though, if Pete's ability to leave the property will help someday unlock the key that allows others to be able to pass back and forth. 

But yeah, I think that, as of now, this is one of those things that's meant to remain a mystery that the ghosts can't figure out and explain.And I like that.  I like that they don't have all the answers to this stuff. We're in our fourth season now and depending on how much longer this show lasts, we'll hopefully have plenty more time to unravel these mysteries and answer these questions. I don't get why people (speaking on a general level here) expect to have everything explained right away instead of just letitng it play out and enjoying the discoveries and answers as they happen. 

[Neptune]

 

[kathyk2]

I have dates and titles for the next few episodes.  A Star is Dead 11/14 The Source Material 12/5 Sad Farnsby 12/12 A Very Andronkar Christmas 12/19.

[PaulE]

Here's someone's interesting theory about why it was necessary for Nigel to return to the shed this season:

It touches on the issues some of us have raised about his character development, especially apart from Isaac.  I think maybe the commentator is placing a little too much importance on Patience, but otherwise I tend to agree with him.  

Still, I'm hoping the writers bring Nigel back into the story now and then.  We haven't seen him for several weeks now and I'll admit I'm beginning to feel that he's going to fade into a character who's mentioned but not seen.  I know the other actors have said they all love working with John Hartman so I hope the writers don't jettison his character completely.

(I put this here rather than in the Ghostly Media Talk thread, as I originally intended to do, because the appearance of Jay's family at Christmas is mentioned, so I guess technically that's a spoiler even though I think everyone knows about that by now.  But I wasn't going to take any chances!)

[Annber03]

I read an article a while back shortly before the season began that indicated that NIgel would show up again throughout the season, so yeah, he'll definitely be back. I think all this stuff going on with Isaac right now is building to some further interaction and development, and likely an eventual reconciling as well. It seems the main reason Nigel only pops in every so often is because of Hartman's schedule - just depends on what's going on and when they're able to get him more than anything. 

[Badsamaritan]

I am absolutely ecstatic that Jay finally gets to really see the ghosts. No one deserves it more, considering all that he's put up with the last 4 years.....

• He rolled with finding out his wife can see ghosts and that ghosts actually exist
• His wife lies to him regularly about the ghosts taking her side when they have a disagreement
• He's cooked countless foods only to watch most of it get thrown away because the ghosts wanna smell his cooking but can't eat it. He prepared a whole reception meal for that ghost non-wedding
• He finally has a restaurant but it's still on property owned by his wife
• He can never be sure he's alone, especially doing something as simple as taking a shower
• His dreams get invaded and then he's asked to basically turn his mind into a singles bar so Sass can get his groove on

That's just a very small sample. For me, it's way past due for him to see them. And I understand other folks like the joke of him being clueless as stuff is happening around him but for me, it's beginning to just look cruel. Sam absolutely has the best possible husband for herself but I'm not sure I can say that Jay has the best possible wife. I love our ghosts but Jay is my favorite character and I want to see him be able to join in. Maybe he doesn't see the ghosts all the time, and has no control when the ability shows itself, so he could be in the middle of a conversation with a living and suddenly Isaac and Hetty appear next to him (but have been there the whole time) and they're also in the middle of a conversation and that throws him. That would make for some very funny scenes. 

I want Jay to be more valued in this little family. With all their hijinks and demands of him, I don't feel like the ghosts actually care about him the way they do Sam. He doesn't get any scenes with them like the most recent one last night with Sam and Alberta. It's understandable, but after a while, for me, it feels mean. 

[chaifan]

On 11/10/2024 at 9:48 PM, PaulE said:

i suspect the writers didn't think too much about it when they set up the boundary canon, and probably didn't take it into consideration when creating additional ghosts, so now things are in a bit of a mess. 

I'll disagree with this.  This show is really well written.  And, it's taken from the British Ghosts which has the same boundary explanation problem.  So I can't imagine that the writers just didn't think about it when setting up the US show.  I think it's deliberate in not having a neat explanation, and is one of those "ghost mysteries" like why they don't fall through floors or chairs or beds.  Keeping the boundary issue messy and unexplainable gives the writers a lot of creative leeway.  It's a feature, not a bug.

[kathyk2]

6 hours ago, Badsamaritan said:

I am absolutely ecstatic that Jay finally gets to really see the ghosts. No one deserves it more, considering all that he's put up with the last 4 years.....

• He rolled with finding out his wife can see ghosts and that ghosts actually exist
• His wife lies to him regularly about the ghosts taking her side when they have a disagreement
• He's cooked countless foods only to watch most of it get thrown away because the ghosts wanna smell his cooking but can't eat it. He prepared a whole reception meal for that ghost non-wedding
• He finally has a restaurant but it's still on property owned by his wife
• He can never be sure he's alone, especially doing something as simple as taking a shower
• His dreams get invaded and then he's asked to basically turn his mind into a singles bar so Sass can get his groove on

That's just a very small sample. For me, it's way past due for him to see them. And I understand other folks like the joke of him being clueless as stuff is happening around him but for me, it's beginning to just look cruel. Sam absolutely has the best possible husband for herself but I'm not sure I can say that Jay has the best possible wife. I love our ghosts but Jay is my favorite character and I want to see him be able to join in. Maybe he doesn't see the ghosts all the time, and has no control when the ability shows itself, so he could be in the middle of a conversation with a living and suddenly Isaac and Hetty appear next to him (but have been there the whole time) and they're also in the middle of a conversation and that throws him. That would make for some very funny scenes. 

I want Jay to be more valued in this little family. With all their hijinks and demands of him, I don't feel like the ghosts actually care about him the way they do Sam. He doesn't get any scenes with them like the most recent one last night with Sam and Alberta. It's understandable, but after a while, for me, it feels mean. 

Sam fills many roles for the ghosts. She's their counselor friend and favorite toy depending on the script. While the ghosts do make demands of Jay they make more of Sam. You are right that Sam won't be able to use the ghosts to fool Jay.

 

[PaulE]

24 minutes ago, kathyk2 said:

Sam fills many roles for the ghosts. She's their counselor friend and favorite toy depending on the script. While the ghosts do make demands of Jay they make more of Sam. You are right that Sam won't be able to use the ghosts to fool Jay.

And yet many of their demands on Sam involve Jay in one way or another (if only because he has to put up with the consequences), and at least she has the satisfaction of being able to interact with them.  I mean, think of all Jay's preparations for the wedding, and for all his efforts he ended up sitting in a silent, empty room dependent on Sam to tell him what was going on.

But that dynamic is part of the humor of the show, so I don't see it going away, though maybe Jay's upcoming ability to see the ghosts will change it a bit.  Right now, because Jay often doesn't and can't know what's going on, I think they see him as a bit of a doofus.  They don't dislike him, but I'm not sure they really respect him.  Pete is the exception, of course.

For me, the bigger issue is that Sam almost never sticks up for Jay when the ghosts' demands or behavior are a little too much. I'm thinking back to when Isaac refused to loan his share of the book royalties to Jay for the restaurant.  Sam should have ripped Isaac a new one over that.  If she occasionally took Jay's side, the ghosts might not take him for granted as much they do.  But in the long run I guess it depends on what gets laughs.

[Badsamaritan]

17 hours ago, PaulE said:

For me, the bigger issue is that Sam almost never sticks up for Jay when the ghosts' demands or behavior are a little too much. I'm thinking back to when Isaac refused to loan his share of the book royalties to Jay for the restaurant.  Sam should have ripped Isaac a new one over that.  If she occasionally took Jay's side, the ghosts might not take him for granted as much they do.  But in the long run I guess it depends on what gets laughs.

And see, I think there's tons of opportunities for some great comedy by skewing Jay's ability slightly in different ways. In addition to them popping up out of nowhere, Jay could only see one of the ghost's heads and not their whole body. Or vice versa, and all the jokes where he thinks Crash does have an attached head because he assumes he can only see his body. Or he sees only one ghost at a time so it looks like one of them is talking to themselves. Or he suddenly hears them talking unexpectedly in his ear. It would be different enough from Sam's ability to leave room for potential conflict but also really heartwarming moments for them as a couple who can see ghosts together. By making his ability unpredictable in how it presents to him, there's a whole slew of new ways to get laughs out of Jay's reactions, but now he will also be 'in' on the joke and not the continuous butt monkey of it.