S01.E05: 24/7

[Meredith Quill]

Quote

With Morpheus caught off guard, John settles in at a diner to watch the people around him — and put his theory about truth and lies to a terrifying test.

[starri]

I'm going to need to digest this one for a while.

[Meredith Quill]

This is the second time I didn't enjoy this particular part of the story. David Thewlis was awesome in his portrayal but the character of John gives me the heebie-geebies, miss me with him.

[starri]

11 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

This is the second time I didn't enjoy this particular part of the story. David Thewlis was awesome in his portrayal but the character of John gives me the heebie-geebies, miss me with him.

I legitimately gasped and shut my eyes at points during this, particularly when Bette stabbed her eyes.  This disturbed the hell out of me, and I think it was in a good way, and still wasn't as horrifying as its comics counterpart.  But jeez, some of the gore was brutal.

[Meredith Quill]

33 minutes ago, starri said:

I legitimately gasped and shut my eyes at points during this, particularly when Bette stabbed her eyes.  This disturbed the hell out of me, and I think it was in a good way, and still wasn't as horrifying as its comics counterpart.  But jeez, some of the gore was brutal.

I looked away just as she was about to do it. I don't need visuals like that in my brain, nope. I know John obviously has mental health issues but still, he can fuck right off.

[ombre]

Oh golly. I'm at the start of this ep. Now *this* issue of the comic I remember. And I just need a place to say idonwannaidonwannaidonwannaidonwannnnnaaaaaaaa!!!!! 

[paramitch]

I thought this was beautifully done, but kind of all flash and little substance.

Like, it's not brain surgery to have a character reduce everyone to their ids and then go, "Look how awful/corrupt! But at least it's honest now!"

So it was great, but also horrible. I was fascinated but actively angry by the end. It's a stealth bottle episode and basically filler.

I'm really enjoying the show -- it's beautiful -- but I'm frustrated that it's so distanced and opaque. I'm not really invested at all, beyond Constantine and Dream (in that order).

Honestly, the raven's (magpie's?) death in the first episode affected me more than anything since. I really hope the show makes me start caring.

[ombre]

46 minutes ago, paramitch said:

 

It's a stealth bottle episode and basically filler.

I'd actually argue that this is the first ep that *isn't* filler. This shows Dream's power, which is the power to both inspire and, if misused, to drain away any hope. What is life without the stories we tell ourselves? 

It's an interesting choice to put this five eps in. It means people need to have already decided that they are interested in other aspects of the show enough to make it this far. It was to prevent all of *this* kind of catastrophe that Gregory was sacrificed. Separating this cause from that effect has a big impact. It means that a fair number of viewers won't connect the two and will just resent the show. But it also helps cement Dream's remoteness and otherwordly knowledge (who but a god can predict a cause that *follows* an effect?), which is a big part of his character. 

[millennium]

I thought this was one of the worst episodes of any show I've seen in a long, long time.  The diner scene was interminable.  Like a Twilight Zone episode or fever dream that just goes on and on and on and never resolves.    After 30 minutes I started fast-forwarding because the outcome in the diner was so predictable I felt no obligation to watch the rest.   Way too much of creepy/boring John in this series.   It's only fitting he was left in a coma because that's kind of how I felt after this episode.  

P.S. 100% agree with the bottle episode/filler observation upthread.

Edited August 7, 2022 by millennium

[MrWhyt]

13 hours ago, paramitch said:

It's a stealth bottle episode

not a bottle episode

[quangtran]

13 hours ago, paramitch said:

It's a stealth bottle episode and basically filler.

I'll have to disagree with both these things. Bottle episodes are usually one set affairs written to reduce costs, while 24/7 was still a pretty expensive and effects heavy episode. Seconds, Sandman is a series made up of often loosely connected stories, so calling them "filler" makes them seem pointless when they are the point in the first place.

[paramitch]

14 hours ago, ombre said:

I'd actually argue that this is the first ep that *isn't* filler. This shows Dream's power, which is the power to both inspire and, if misused, to drain away any hope. What is life without the stories we tell ourselves? 

It's an interesting choice to put this five eps in. It means people need to have already decided that they are interested in other aspects of the show enough to make it this far. It was to prevent all of *this* kind of catastrophe that Gregory was sacrificed. Separating this cause from that effect has a big impact. It means that a fair number of viewers won't connect the two and will just resent the show. But it also helps cement Dream's remoteness and otherwordly knowledge (who but a god can predict a cause that *follows* an effect?), which is a big part of his character. 

I agree with you on the ending giving us valuable information about Dream and his powers. I did love that bit, and the visuals were gorgeous.

I just feel ambivalent about everything that came before in the diner. It was masterfully done, it was riveting and suspenseful, sexy and icky. But we don't really learn anything. It just feels prurient to me, showy and mean. What does it really say about human nature? Isn't it really just an excuse for violence and sex and a sort of glorying in cruelty?

I may just be a wimp, here. But watching Bette, for instance (a truly kind person, if subtly nervous -- I wouldn't quite go to homophobic -- of her gay friend) descend all the way down into hell because she attempted to be kind to people was really hard to watch.

[starri]

6 hours ago, paramitch said:

But watching Bette, for instance (a truly kind person, if subtly nervous -- I wouldn't quite go to homophobic -- of her gay friend) descend all the way down into hell because she attempted to be kind to people was really hard to watch.

Spoiler

She is COMPLETELY homophobic in the comic.  She has an internal monolog that Judy being a lesbian is a sin against God, and in the stories that she writes that whitewash small town life, makes sure to marry off Judy and her girlfriend to men.

She's also not really being kind to people.  She's using them as grist for her banal tales.

[thuganomics85]

Damn, John, that was a lot of brutality just to get a free tub of ice cream!

Odd episode: really did kind of remind me of a Twilight Zone episode in a lot of ways.  The concept of "everyone always telling the truth and doing what they want is actually bad!" is certainly a common theme in these kind of morality tales.  Little White Lies saves lives, people!

The actors playing the diner folks did good jobs, even though Bette was probably the only character that made any kind of impact.  But they did seem to be kind of cagey over her actually being homophobic or did she just not like Judy's particular girlfriend.  Of course, the ruby ended up just having her actually want to hook up with Judy at the end, so who knows what was going through her mind?

At least Morpheus seems to have taken John out for now, but we will see if this is the last of him.  David Thewlis has definitely been one of the highlights so far.  But it looks like one of The Sandman's relatives has now crashed the party!

The winner in this episode was clearly the cook who had the earlier shift and got to avoid all of this craziness!  Although, I won't blame her if she puts in her notice when she comes back since I doubt Morpheus did any kind of clean-up once he finished....

[Chicago Redshirt]

23 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

The actors playing the diner folks did good jobs, even though Bette was probably the only character that made any kind of impact.  But they did seem to be kind of cagey over her actually being homophobic or did she just not like Judy's particular girlfriend.  Of course, the ruby ended up just having her actually want to hook up with Judy at the end, so who knows what was going through her mind?..

The way it played out in this episode it seemed to me that Bette was hiding her attraction for Judy under a layer of mild homophobia/self-denial. The self-proclaimed great fixer-upper was trying to fix a lesbian who was immediately and overtly in the midst of a possible breakup  with a straight guy. 

One could read that as general cluelessness, or one could read that as homophobia, or one could read it as Bette not trusting herself with Judy on the open market even for a second. This incarnation of Bette seemed to have an issue with Donna not being good enough for Judy rather than the whole concept of women dating, IMO. 

[paramitch]

9 hours ago, starri said:

  Hide contents

Spoiler

She is COMPLETELY homophobic in the comic.  She has an internal monolog that Judy being a lesbian is a sin against God, and in the stories that she writes that whitewash small town life, makes sure to marry off Judy and her girlfriend to men.

She's also not really being kind to people.  She's using them as grist for her banal tales.

I haven't read the comic, so that definitely confirms the direction they were going with Bette. It just wasn't very clear to me (more on that farther down).

But did we get confirmation here onscreen that

Spoiler

people were just fodder for her writing?

Because here it seemed like, okay, she was a writer, but her motivation was mainly that she wanted to be liked (and lied in order to be liked).

3 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

The actors playing the diner folks did good jobs, even though Bette was probably the only character that made any kind of impact.  But they did seem to be kind of cagey over her actually being homophobic or did she just not like Judy's particular girlfriend.  Of course, the ruby ended up just having her actually want to hook up with Judy at the end, so who knows what was going through her mind?

(snip)

The winner in this episode was clearly the cook who had the earlier shift and got to avoid all of this craziness!  Although, I won't blame her if she puts in her notice when she comes back since I doubt Morpheus did any kind of clean-up once he finished....

1. Yeah, I agree on all counts. I missed that Bette was homophobic, since she did seem to genuinely care for Judy and was more doing the "she's not good enough for you" thing.

2. OMG, I laughed out loud at the earlier shift cook winning the lottery (surviving) although also probably suffering massive PTSD when they come in the next day!

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

The way it played out in this episode it seemed to me that Bette was hiding her attraction for Judy under a layer of mild homophobia/self-denial. The self-proclaimed great fixer-upper was trying to fix a lesbian who was immediately and overtly in the midst of a possible breakup  with a straight guy. 

One could read that as general cluelessness, or one could read that as homophobia, or one could read it as Bette not trusting herself with Judy on the open market even for a second. This incarnation of Bette seemed to have an issue with Donna not being good enough for Judy rather than the whole concept of women dating, IMO. 

That was my take, exactly. It was not at all clear to me that Bette was actually homophobic so much as a little attracted and passive-aggressive (yes, trying to set Judy up with a guy was tone-deaf, I just wasn't sure if it was deliberate, if Judy was bi, etc.), but then again, I'm probably not going to watch this episode more than once to check.

[Black Knight]

1 minute ago, paramitch said:

That was my take, exactly. It was not at all clear to me that Bette was actually homophobic so much as a little attracted and passive-aggressive (yes, trying to set Judy up with a guy was tone-deaf, I just wasn't sure if it was deliberate, if Judy was bi, etc.), but then again, I'm probably not going to watch this episode more than once to check.

It would have been interesting to know what Bette would have done if Mark had been Maria. Was she really trying to fix Judy up with a guy specifically, or just with the first available person she saw walk into the diner while Judy was moping over her girlfriend, who happened to be a man? I don't think we were given enough information to know for sure.

[QuantumMechanic]

On 8/7/2022 at 9:36 AM, paramitch said:

So it was great, but also horrible. I was fascinated but actively angry by the end. It's a stealth bottle episode and basically filler.

Well, it's in the same place in the TV show as it was in the comic.  I'm not sure where else they could have put it because of the need for Dream to have gotten back to his original power level/gotten all his stuff back from mortals before moving on to other things.

And while they have made some concessions to TV needs (for example, having the big name co-star fight Dream in the transformation battle in Hell

Spoiler

whereas in the comics Dream fought Choronzon and Lucifer was a spectator/rules enforcer)

 they have stayed remarkably close structurally to the comics.  The early issues really were fairly disjoint episodes just like the show has been so far.

[Chicago Redshirt]

12 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

Well, it's in the same place in the TV show as it was in the comic.  I'm not sure where else they could have put it because of the need for Dream to have gotten back to his original power level/gotten all his stuff back from mortals before moving on to other things.

I suppose they could have kept the episode where it was but had scenes outside the dinner to fend off the accusations of being a bottle episode.

Bad stuff is happening all around the world thanks to what John is doing with the Ruby. We got to hear about it through the TV news broadcasts. I could see some people preferring to be shown rather than told about those things.

Personally I think it better the way the show did it: to focus on these six people and imply that it is a microcosm of what is happening globally than to try to spend time/space developing scenes of random strangers freaking out in a no-lie world, or in having additional Morpheus VO,

[tennisgurl]

I have been looking forward to/fearing this episode since the show was first greenlit, especially when I saw the episode titles. Every chapter leading up to this is solid, but this is probably the first truly iconic, stuck in your head forever, chapters of the book. When I talk to people about the Sandman, this is usually one of the first chapters they will bring up. I actually thought that they might skip it, but I am glad they kept it, even though, as truly fucked up as this got, and it got really fucked up, the comic version is even worse. But even still, this was impressively gory and disturbing. The eyes! Why do you have this thing with eyes, Neil?! I will miss David Thewlis and his interpretation of John Dee, but I think that is more than enough for my poor stomach to handle. I can feel a teeny bit bad for John, he's clearly very mentally unwell and the ruby has been affecting his mind since he was a baby, but good god. 

This was really disturbing but also really beautiful in its own twisted way. I have been trying to watch the show slowly to really savor it and soak in everything, but its been really hard...except for now. I am going to need to watch a wacky sitcom or something after a drink or two before I go to the next one.

I read Betty as jealous of Judy's girlfriend, wanting to be with Judy but isn't ready to deal with her sexuality, but there were a lot of ways to interpret just about everyone in the diner. 

I don't think this was filer at all, its probably the most plot heavy episode we have had so far. More importantly, the whole book/show is a story about stories, its filled with chapters that have little to no connection to the main plot, but they give more characterization to supporting characters, world build, or the books important themes, especially the basic human need for stories, why we tell the stories we tell, and why they matter. 

Edited August 9, 2022 by tennisgurl

[Black Knight]

7 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I suppose they could have kept the episode where it was but had scenes outside the dinner to fend off the accusations of being a bottle episode.

It is a bottle episode. But they don't need to fend off accusations about it being that, because there's nothing wrong with being a bottle episode. Granted, some people don't like bottle episodes (or issues), but a lot of others do. It's just a format and like any format, some people like it and some don't.

The EW binge recapper for Sandman, for instance, wrote that bottle episodes are often the most interesting in a series and that this one was no exception.

[Chicago Redshirt]

I guess it depends on how one defines "bottle episode." Defined just as "an episode where all the action takes place on one set/location," then yes. Defined as something "produced cheaply and restricted in scope to use as few regular cast members, effects, and sets as possible." and "commonly used when one script has fallen through and another has to be written at short notice, or because of budgetary constraints" as Wikipedia does here, then no. 

The decision to have all the action take place at the diner doesn't reflect a tight-fisted Netflix or a last-minute writing effort or any of that. It was a deliberate choice based on what was in the graphic novel to show in microcosm what John was doing.

[MrWhyt]

On 8/9/2022 at 4:51 PM, Black Knight said:

It is a bottle episode.

not a bottle episode. Bottle episodes take place on existing sets and try to use regular cast as much as possible. They're designed to save money. This was all new sets with almost all new cast. it may have taken place in one location but that does not make it a bottle episode.

[Glade]

This was my least favorite episode; the whole 'shabby older guy uses supernatural powers to terrorize small town diner' feels very dated, very stephen king. 

[Black Knight]

Although Wikipedia is not an official source, since it was mentioned as a reference I'll note the Wikipedia page lists a number of bottle episodes that had nothing to do with budgetary reasons or the other reason of a script that fell through and had to be replaced. So Wikipedia itself acknowledges that budgetary/script issues are not required. Writers discovered there were such creative advantages to the format that they started doing them for creative reasons alone, and by this point in television they're done as often for creative reasons as for budgetary reasons.

And certainly in 24/7 we can see the creative advantages of sticking to one location with one small set of characters: It creates a hothouse atmosphere that makes us feel as trapped as the characters are in the de facto horror house. Though thankfully we don't die too. :)

[JustHereForFood]

I thought that this episode would be more disturbing, to be honest. When I read this issue of comic, I felt really disgusted and disturbed (though I don't agree with those that call it the most disturbing comic ever, there are worse). But this was... surprisingly mild IMO. The stuff with Bette's boyfriend and her son was waaay worse in the comic for example, that one stood out for me particularly and I couldn't shake it for a long time.

Maybe I just kept preparing myself for this and worried too much.

I like the actress who played Judy, so that was a nice surprise, didnot know she would be here.

On 8/8/2022 at 8:57 AM, paramitch said:

I just feel ambivalent about everything that came before in the diner. It was masterfully done, it was riveting and suspenseful, sexy and icky. But we don't really learn anything. It just feels prurient to me, showy and mean. What does it really say about human nature? Isn't it really just an excuse for violence and sex and a sort of glorying in cruelty?

We learned how dangerous it would be if people lost their ability to dream. John considered it lying, but what he called telling the truth here was basically taking everything as it is, with no imagination, almost like animals following just their instincts. It teaches us that imagination can be a powerful skill and sometimes a survival mechanism.

[SevenStars]

John really seems like he had the maturity and mentality of a little boy. His last scenes with Dream really showcase that to me. 

[Ottis]

This was Jessica Jones, season 1, with the bad guy who made people do things. I forget his name. Kilbane?

Fast-forwarded through a lot of it, until John’s soliloquy. It wasn’t interesting. Something is wrong inside John. He has a perspective around truth that is warped. It is an interesting thought, but not interesting enough. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

12 hours ago, Ottis said:

This was Jessica Jones, season 1, with the bad guy who made people do things. I forget his name. Kilbane?

Fast-forwarded through a lot of it, until John’s soliloquy. It wasn’t interesting. Something is wrong inside John. He has a perspective around truth that is warped. It is an interesting thought, but not interesting enough. 

Killgrave.

But unlike him, John wasn't directly commanding people to do the things they did. He was just preventing them from lying to each other and themselves. 

[supposebly]

On 8/11/2022 at 2:49 PM, Glade said:

the whole 'shabby older guy uses supernatural powers to terrorize small town diner' feels very dated, very stephen king. 

I don't know about Stephen King, I'm not a fan ever since I've been traumatized for life by the Pet Cemetary. But overall, the themes addressed or the way they are addressed seem, forgive me, immature. It reminds me of myself as an undergraduate Lit major. And the way things are presented is very 1990s. A lot of showy beautiful things that partially have to stand in for substance. I think this worked well back then but after having watched a lot of very beautiful looking TV shows and movies in the last 20 years, this feels somewhat lacking. It makes me worry about the upcoming Interview with the Vampire show that has a similar thing going. A lot of beauty, some interesting themes but....I'm not sure if I will still feel they're all that.

I just don't quite get how losing dreaming/imagination gets people to get stabby all of a sudden. That didn't feel earned. Is that where Despair comes in? I don't know the source material, so this is just me wondering if there is more to this.

Dream reminds me of a very sulky Robert Smith from the Cure who is not too smart. And walks and talks veeeeeery slowly.

David Thewlis is great as always. The acting overall is good.

Throughout I kept thinking, this is quite the job interview!

[QuantumMechanic]

39 minutes ago, supposebly said:

Dream reminds me of a very sulky Robert Smith from the Cure who is not too smart. And walks and talks veeeeeery slowly.

Right idea, wrong band :).  The original (i.e. comics) Dream's face and appearance were based on Bauhaus's Peter Murphy.

[Chicago Redshirt]

6 hours ago, supposebly said:

I don't know about Stephen King, I'm not a fan ever since I've been traumatized for life by the Pet Cemetary. But overall, the themes addressed or the way they are addressed seem, forgive me, immature. It reminds me of myself as an undergraduate Lit major. And the way things are presented is very 1990s. A lot of showy beautiful things that partially have to stand in for substance. I think this worked well back then but after having watched a lot of very beautiful looking TV shows and movies in the last 20 years, this feels somewhat lacking. It makes me worry about the upcoming Interview with the Vampire show that has a similar thing going. A lot of beauty, some interesting themes but....I'm not sure if I will still feel they're all that.

I just don't quite get how losing dreaming/imagination gets people to get stabby all of a sudden. That didn't feel earned. Is that where Despair comes in? I don't know the source material, so this is just me wondering if there is more to this.

The people didn't lose dreaming/imagination so much as they lost their ability to lie and maintain illusions about themselves and others. I think that for the purposes of the story, the process was greatly accelerated, but I can easily see that for a lot of people, being forced into radical honesty about everything and anything could easily lead to a point where you would want to harm yourself or others.

The show differs quite a bit from the graphic novel in that...

John in the graphic novel is a literal supervillain who had been called Dr. Destiny and  predated The Sandman in the DC Universe by decades. GN John is a sadistic psycho who, unlike Netflix John, sets the diner patrons (and everyone else as his influence grows) against each other for his own amusement.