S03.E10: Future Unknown

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

I have a hard time really believing that all possible foods could be replicated to truly be an acceptable substitute for the "real" thing. I'm just making some big pots of tomato sauce from the tomatoes out in the garden, and having a nice tomato salad with a couple of the really pretty ones, still warm from the sunshine. Is the tomato that the replicator spits out really going to be equal to that? And I'm sure some people would still want to farm fresh produce anyway - there are those who love it, and it seems there would still be demand for fresh fruits and such. But still, wouldn't there be a limit to how much fresh produce was available, and some version of supply and demand would still exist.

And what about artists? Sure, they could have a wonderful life just producing art and not worry about making a living with it, which would be amazing, but what if they were extremely talented to the point that their work was widely sought after? I suppose it could all go into a museum, and no one could actually own an original, but where do you draw the line between masterworks and doodles? 

It seems there are any number of similar scenarios where some things are just inherently more valuable, and there would have to be some method of determining who "deserves" to have them.

Sadly, there may be no soil-grown tomatoes (or carrots or strawberries) for people to know what they're missing.😔
Kind of like indigenous languages that have become extinct.
But if that were the case, wouldn't Gordon, after having lived in the 21st century for 10 years, have been talking about how surprised he was that the meat he caught with his phaser was so tasty? 
IDK. Maybe he really did think that but didn't share.

But I have no problem imagining replicators spitting out exact replicas of original artwork.

[Jynnan tonnix]

46 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Sadly, there may be no soil-grown tomatoes (or carrots or strawberries) for people to know what they're missing.😔
Kind of like indigenous languages that have become extinct.
But if that were the case, wouldn't Gordon, after having lived in the 21st century for 10 years, have been talking about how surprised he was that the meat he caught with his phaser was so tasty? 
IDK. Maybe he really did think that but didn't share.

But I have no problem imagining replicators spitting out exact replicas of original artwork.

It's hard to believe, though, that in a world where everyone gets to do something that they find joy and fulfillment in, there would be no more people gardening for the sheer joy if it. It seems that as long as humans can have a little patch of land, or even a spot for a few flowerpots, that some of them would want to nurture a few fruits or flowers. And if they didn't, I can't imagine that the literature of not-so-long-ago wouldn't be full of people lamenting the loss of actual soil-grown, sun-ripened fruit. As much as they seem to default to 20th century music & movies, those opinions should not have become lost to them. I suppose we just have to accept that the replicators have the capability to capture every nuance, and every nutrient.

As far as the art, yes, no doubt the art work could be perfectly replicated, but that still doesn't answer the question of whether an original would have any intrinsic value over a copy. As an artist, I already find the ease with which various filters can make a photo look very convincingly similar to an oil or watercolor painting a little bit problematic - there's no need, really, for anyone to bother purchasing original art work when a reasonable facsimile can be had for pretty much nothing. Granted, in that society an artist would still be free to indulge in the joy of creation, so I guess there's that. 

I'm still not entirely sold on the idea of this "fully automated luxury communism" (as Lugal so neatly phrased it) really working out quite as smoothly as the Orville's reality suggests. 

1 minute ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

Edited August 19, 2022 by Jynnan tonnix

[Megras]

If we aren't careful, we'll leave the Union and end up in Ian M. Banks Culture :D where people end up spying for fun.

[Morrigan2575]

ZqI'm glad S3 was put on D+, I don't have Hulu.

I really liked this season but, I missed the humor. I enjoyed the Season finale because it was a reminder of early Orville. 

I don't like Ed/Kelly so the Hand holding was annoying. I really hoped they ended that with the whole time travel episode in S2.

I find the Kaylon as allies against the Krill/Moclan to be interesting, It does allow for more humerus situations. 

If this is the series finale then I think it went out on a good note. I enjoyed the Season and the final episode.  If we get a S4 I hope it's on D+ so I can watch it right away.

[Yeah No]

On 8/16/2022 at 5:23 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

Why wouldn't people be able to just decide what they want to do and expect to be able to do it, generally speaking?

A society could allow people to pursue whatever skills they want. Yes, there would be people who are fundamentally incapable of developing certain skills. In which case, they would get fired or redirected. 

Nothing would inherently stop everyone who wanted to be an astrophysicist from being one if they had the skills to do it. The notion of there being a "need" for a job is a relic of a scarcity economy.

Again, what we might consider "human nature" is a product of cultural conditioning rather than actual inherent qualities.

There is no real framework for how people would behave if they didn't have to struggle to survive.

Apologies for the late response but my vacation among other things got in the way....

There's always going to be the problem of supply and demand no matter what type of society people live in.  The world only needs so many astrophysicists, dentists, or accountants, not to mention a bunch other professions that seem to be very popular.   There is a finite amount of work needed by each profession and if a lot more people go into those professions than is needed by society they will find themselves without a lot to do. Conversely, if certain careers are not that popular there will be labor shortages.  Someone's going to have to end up doing them whether it's their life's ambition or not and we can't just expect "machines" to be able to pick up the slack.  I just don't see it as 100% feasible.  That's the stuff of science fiction, not the stuff of reality in my opinion.

I've read that certain careers are a lot more popular than others.  I once read an interesting article about how so many people became lawyers over the last 40 years that at least pre-pandemic there was an oversupply of them out there and because of that some inevitably don't make as much money as people might expect them to.  We've all heard of the lawyers that try to drum up business by looking for and taking on ridiculous lawsuits.  And the demand changes.  I've also read that lawyers are more in demand suddenly since the pandemic.  So supply and demand is always an issue.  I suppose if nobody had to worry about earning a living they could have a "hobby profession" and not really have to work much at it but that's not what we see on Star Trek or the Orville.  The ideal they push is that everyone has meaningful employment and is doing something they really want to do for the greater good of their society.  I'm just not sure that's 100% feasible even in their society.

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, Yeah No said:

Apologies for the late response but my vacation among other things got in the way....

There's always going to be the problem of supply and demand no matter what type of society people live in.  The world only needs so many astrophysicists, dentists, or accountants, not to mention a bunch other professions that seem to be very popular.   There is a finite amount of work needed by each profession and if a lot more people go into those professions than is needed by society they will find themselves without a lot to do. Conversely, if certain careers are not that popular there will be labor shortages.  Someone's going to have to end up doing them whether it's their life's ambition or not and we can't just expect "machines" to be able to pick up the slack.  I just don't see it as 100% feasible.  That's the stuff of science fiction, not the stuff of reality in my opinion.

I've read that certain careers are a lot more popular than others.  I once read an interesting article about how so many people became lawyers over the last 40 years that at least pre-pandemic there was an oversupply of them out there and because of that some inevitably don't make as much money as people might expect them to.  We've all heard of the lawyers that try to drum up business by looking for and taking on ridiculous lawsuits.  And the demand changes.  I've also read that lawyers are more in demand suddenly since the pandemic.  So supply and demand is always an issue.  I suppose if nobody had to worry about earning a living they could have a "hobby profession" and not really have to work much at it but that's not what we see on Star Trek or the Orville.  The ideal they push is that everyone has meaningful employment and is doing something they really want to do for the greater good of their society.  I'm just not sure that's 100% feasible even in their society.

The flaw in this is the very notion of supply and demand. Such concepts have little or no meaning in a post-scarcity society. Being able to replicate your way to basically anything for everybody would wreck both curves as we know them.

The thing that stops too many people from being astrophysicists (or whatever) in our society is there are a number of barriers to entry to being one, and then there's a limit to how many institutions will employ them. And that's due to scarcity.

In a universe where for all practical purposes, everyone can get free educations as far as they want, and there's no inherent limit as to funding, there's no inherent reason why there can't be 5 trillion people who would go into astrophysics. 

The notion that on the flipside some necessary jobs would be undesirable and thus go unfilled is, I think, an underestimation of what might be possible with technology. But in any case, I don't think it's any more inherently true that an undesirable job would go unfilled in a post-scarcity society than in a capitalistic society. In fact, it might be easier to fill because no one would be stuck doing it full time. If it were deemed part of civic duty to spend 5 hours a month doing whatever the 25th Century equivalent is of shoveling shit, then it would probably get done satisfactorily. And if the society deemed being the best barista or whatever just as good as being the best politician or actor or businessperson, there probably wouldn't be any job that was considered inherently undesirable in the first place.

[Yeah No]

On 8/26/2022 at 6:48 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

The flaw in this is the very notion of supply and demand. Such concepts have little or no meaning in a post-scarcity society. Being able to replicate your way to basically anything for everybody would wreck both curves as we know them.

The thing that stops too many people from being astrophysicists (or whatever) in our society is there are a number of barriers to entry to being one, and then there's a limit to how many institutions will employ them. And that's due to scarcity.

In a universe where for all practical purposes, everyone can get free educations as far as they want, and there's no inherent limit as to funding, there's no inherent reason why there can't be 5 trillion people who would go into astrophysics. 

The notion that on the flipside some necessary jobs would be undesirable and thus go unfilled is, I think, an underestimation of what might be possible with technology. But in any case, I don't think it's any more inherently true that an undesirable job would go unfilled in a post-scarcity society than in a capitalistic society. In fact, it might be easier to fill because no one would be stuck doing it full time. If it were deemed part of civic duty to spend 5 hours a month doing whatever the 25th Century equivalent is of shoveling shit, then it would probably get done satisfactorily. And if the society deemed being the best barista or whatever just as good as being the best politician or actor or businessperson, there probably wouldn't be any job that was considered inherently undesirable in the first place.

I still think there are more limits than that.  Take the Orville for example.  I could imagine that many people on board would want to be officers.  But you don't get to be an officer just because you want to be one.  You have to earn being one.  And if everyone could be one you'd have too "too many chiefs, not enough Indians" to quote an old expression.  A lot of kids want to become president, but how many actually do?  Very few!  Standards and quotas have to be upheld and worked within and a way of choosing who gets to do what.  So that right away causes a situation where we all don't get to do whatever we want to do.  And you did point out that not everyone has what it takes to be an astrophysicist, so right there I can see where some people that might really want to become one wouldn't be able to and would have to choose to do something that to them would be less desirable.   This is only one example but it could be equally true of many professions.  I could go on with examples, but I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

[eelpout]

That's a bit whack, but I'm pretty sure that was jazz drumming legend Peter Erskine at the wedding reception. I was a bit baffled by this but then remembered MacFarelane's vocal side. Sure enough Erskine has played on some of Seth's albums. 

[tkc]

This was a great episode, and had it all: discussion of what utopian humanity might really look like, CGI galore with thousands of Kaylon ships (as well as Kaylon wedding guests), some laugh out loud moments (like Claire rampaging through Engineering to get to John), and some sweet moments too.

However, I think many might forget the scary, keep-you-up-at-night scene: I'm not talking about the jump scare on Gendel 3 or even Bortus in the Elvis get-up. I'm talking about this creepy clown shot of the Orville herself at 34:37 (avert your eyes now if you don't want to wake up screaming in the middle of the night):

Edited September 7, 2022 by tkc

[Quickbeam]

Finally watched this. I just want to say it was *WAY* too important to me to see the sandwich again. My spouse gave me a “what’s wrong with you” look as I cheered.  I love Scott Grimes’ voice so the more the better. I read his bio, he’s been singin’ and acting forever. He looks really good for 52. 
 

I really want more Orville.

[TV Anonymous]

Was this the series finale? It felt like it and I hope it was. The show was a good spoof of Star Trek at the beginning but as it went to find its form it lost its purpose. Was the show comedy or action-adventure? It felt like neither. Plus, the three-year delay (one of which was TPTB's own fault) did not help. Better to stop now when it was still decent.

Speaking of Star Trek, this episode was full of Star Trek lores:

• Mercer said, "One of the great privileges ... bestowed upon ships captains since the days of the ancient seafaring vessels is the honor of uniting two people in matrimony." Picard said this when he officiated O'Brien's wedding, "Since the days of the first wooden sailing ships, all captains have enjoyed the happy privilege of joining together two people in the bonds of matrimony."
• Other than that, Prime Directive, food replicator, and holo-deck. 

[DoctorAtomic]

I don't know if saying the ship's captain can marry people is specific to Trek though. I like Trek just fine, but I didn't really see this as any spoof. Seth certainly has been clear that he was influenced by Trek, and what scifi space show isn't? But it was it's own show for me. 

It's like the South Park episode about the Simpsons did it first. I think Clyde says, 'they've been on tv for 400 years, they've done everything already'. That was like 15 years ago. 

[Bort]

3 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I don't know if saying the ship's captain can marry people is specific to Trek though.

Yeah, you can get married by the ship captain on a cruise or do a charter wedding at sea to be married by the ship captain. Definitely not a Trek thing. 

[TV Anonymous]

I did not mean a captain officiating the wedding that was Trekish, but what Mercer said seemed to be a paraphrase of what Picard said.

[Bort]

4 minutes ago, TV Anonymous said:

I did not mean a captain officiating the wedding that was Trekish, but what Mercer said seemed to be a paraphrase of what Picard said.

Yeah, but I think that’s a thing that ship captains say.

[aemom]

On 8/13/2022 at 1:06 PM, shapeshifter said:

Yes.  
But there should have been a “previously on The Orville” reminder of this factoid from 5 Freaking Years ago (IMO).

There should have been a previously every freaking week! If there was every a season of any show that needed Previouslies, it was this one.

On 8/15/2022 at 2:46 PM, jcbrown said:

Seriously. This and the fact that Ed has a surprise kid with whatshername both took me out of the story. C'mon, writers, surely you can imagine that there would be reliable contraception and non-misogynist wedding vows by now.

I thought this episode was oddly placed in the season. There were things I enjoyed this season but also some very clunky bits and this episode leaned a little too hard on Kelly-as-exposition-fairy for my tastes. I think the extra episode length on Hulu has largely been abused and led to  episodes that should have been tightened up. I did like that this episode used Scott Grimes better. I think his humor has been missing from the season (not entirely but I could have used more).

The "man and wife" thing REALLY annoyed me as well. There's just no excuse for that these days.

While the extra show length has been good in some ways, certain scenes have just gone on way too long - this week it was the Moclan mating ritual.

I would like to see the show come back. Hopefully it's not another three years if it does.

Edited to add: I forgot the sandwich. I was so thrilled to see that they closed this tiny plotline. I cheered when the sandwich appeared!

Edited November 6, 2022 by aemom
Forgot to mention the sandwich

[lucindabelle]

But every job has SOME things about it that are distasteful or boring and I do mean every job. I’m a teacher and I love it but that doesn’t mean I love getting up at 5:45 or ticking every box etc., evaluations, talking to parents…

 

when I worked in theatre similarly there were always some parts of it that were a drag.

and as an adult I have had mostly career type jobs for which I’ve trained. What will keep people doing the parts of work that isn’t fulfilling? Don’t get me wrong I’d love for it not to be money. I just didn’t feel like reputation was quite enough. Or maybe not explained enough.