S06.E07: Plan and Execution

[Bannon]

2 hours ago, Neiman said:

Kim and Jimmy could easily come up with a story to imply he didn't simply vanish.  It would be plausible to say he's taking an extended vacation given the recent fiasco, and I doubt anyone would question that.  Kim and Jimmy can be very convincing, as we've seen.  Sending Howard on a "vacation" would be easy compared to what they've done recently.

Senior partners at largish law firms do not go on extended vacations without telling any other partners where they can be contacted, and two people who are not employed by the firm are not going to be able to provide a satisfactory explanation.  Any partner who did accept such an explanation, without independent verification, would be terribly irresponsible with regard to their duty to clients and employees of the firm.

These are terrific writers. It'll be below their normal standards if the killing of Howard in this manner doesn't cause gigantic, life altering problems for Saul and  Kim.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Bannon

[Neiman]

Just now, Bannon said:

Senior partners at largish law firms do not go on extended vacations without telling any other partners where they can be contacted, and two people who are not employed by the firm are going to be able to provide a satisfactory explanation.  Any partner who did accept such an explanation, without independent verification, would be terribly irresponsible with regard to their duty to clients and employees of the firm.

These are terrific writers. It'll be below their normal standards if the killing of Howard in this manner doesn't cause gigantic, life altering problems for Saul and  Kim.

Of course, Kim and Jimmy wouldn’t be readily believed. Duh. However, these two people not employed by the firm have shown they have extensive contacts who can pose as just about anyone. They can hire people to make phone calls, send emails, etc., to create an elaborate ruse which is in line with what the writers have come up with so far. 

[Bannon]

2 hours ago, gallimaufry said:

I agree but as we saw with Hank, whose investigations were arguably even more consequential than a one-off suspicious death, budgets, time and human error can all factor in -- plus, most crucially, the need to build a case that will win at trial.

Howard was seen with cocaine, multiple people can attest to hearing rumours about its use, his partner committed suicide just over a year ago, he had struggled with debt and marital estrangement, multiple people saw him with dilated eyes and making crazy allegations.  Occam's Razor suggests a logical explanation that would at least sow reasonable doubt in the minds of a jury.

Now there may be some evidence of some funny business with the lawyers pranking Howard.  Perhaps Jimmy and Kim say they got wind of him harassing them -- calling him out to a boxing ring and trying to get him to fight, that kind of thing.  So they play a prank to get their own back and when they saw the investigator posed for some deliberately daft images.  How Howard mistook a guy in his 20s in sports gear with a ridiculous fake moustache for a respected judge... well, who can say down what routes the devil's dandruff beckons.

It's not satisfactory.  But it's not criminal.

They might even be able to establish that Howard had an alibi for the hit and run.  And that Kim was there.  But how do you prove who drove the car?

They could even position Jimmy at the same country club and, at a real stretch, even in the same locker room on the day that Cliff found the drugs.  But it's all hugely circumstantial.  

As long as Jimmy and Kim can handle the crime scene right and have a good story, it should be possible to muddy the waters to the extent that it would be simply too time-consuming and uncertain to bring a case that would remotely stand up in court.

I didn't write it would be easy to convict Saul and Kim of being guilty of a crime. That's a high standard of evidence, and they really aren't criminally guilty, in any way, with regard to Howard's death. I wrote that credible investigation into Howard's death is going to hugely upend Saul and Kim's personal and professional lives.

[Constantinople]

25 minutes ago, Neiman said:

Of course, Kim and Jimmy wouldn’t be readily believed. Duh. However, these two people not employed by the firm have shown they have extensive contacts who can pose as just about anyone. They can hire people to make phone calls, send emails, etc., to create an elaborate ruse which is in line with what the writers have come up with so far. 

I don't see how they can impersonate Howard over the phone, particularly since there's already been one fake phone call to HHM recently that should get a lot of attention.

So far, Kim and Jimmy's most elaborate ruse fell apart within minutes. That was all the time they needed, but for Howard's disappearance the ruse has to good enough to last forever. And it will be city and state police investigating Howard's disappearance, not Howard investigating Kim and Jimmy's scam. Frankly, I'm a little dubious that their ruse against Howard would have succeeded. Too many things had to go perfectly. But even in the show, it would have failed had Jimmy not seen the mediator was wearing a cast on his arm.

Also, providing any false information, directly or indirectly, runs the risk of inconsistencies or mistakes. Jimmy already screwed up once when he referred to Jorge De Guzman as Lalo in front of a prosecutor and a police officer. Better to say nothing. Less likely to make mistakes.

And what if the people they hire get caught and confess? They authorities don't have a tape of what happened, so they'll start looking at Jimmy and Kim as suspects in Howard's murder. Even if they tell the truth, no one in law enforcement will believe them. And if they believe them, Kim and Jimmy will be charged as accessories after the fact. Do they really want that trouble?

[Lalo Lives]

I need help.

I also need BCS assistance.

I heard/read a reference to a slim or implied female person in a hoodie scratching "S.G was her"....as if this were something all of us would be aware of.

I do not recall it. Was it in an opening scene, a Gene scene, or something else? In a promo?

If I saw it, I glossed right over it.

Many thanks.

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Neiman said:

Of course, Kim and Jimmy wouldn’t be readily believed. Duh. However, these two people not employed by the firm have shown they have extensive contacts who can pose as just about anyone. They can hire people to make phone calls, send emails, etc., to create an elaborate ruse which is in line with what the writers have come up with so far. 

We disagree as to what would be a reasonable suspension of disbelief. These writers aren't perfect (like I said elsewhere, Walter White pulling off, with the help of the Aryan gang, simulteaneous assassinations of witnesses, in multiple prisons, was a rare bit of plotting ridiculousness in BB), but I think it's possible to write a better resolution in the last 6 episodes where Saul and Kim aren't trying to sell the idea, with phony calls/electronic communication,  to HHM, Howard's wife, Cliff, and others, that Howard left unannounced for an extended time. We'll see.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Bannon

[peeayebee]

23 minutes ago, Lalo Lives said:

I need help.

I also need BCS assistance.

I heard/read a reference to a slim or implied female person in a hoodie scratching "S.G was her"....as if this were something all of us would be aware of.

I do not recall it. Was it in an opening scene, a Gene scene, or something else? In a promo?

If I saw it, I glossed right over it.

Many thanks.

I had to google...

It's from S2E1 "Switch". Wikipedia:

Quote

In a flash forward that follows the events of Breaking Bad, "Gene" manages a Cinnabon store in Omaha, Nebraska. When closing for the night, he accidentally locks himself in the mall's dumpster room. He contemplates using an emergency exit but does not because the alarm on the door would notify police. A janitor lets him out nearly three hours later, but Gene carved "SG WAS HERE" into the wall with a screw while he waited.

[Lalo Lives]

59 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

I had to google...

It's from S2E1 "Switch". Wikipedia:

I DO remember that. I had thought Saul/Jimmy did that one. But this made reference to someone other than Jimmy/Saul doing it.  An on screen character writing S.G. was HER. 

HER as in a woman.

[gallimaufry]

5 hours ago, Bannon said:

I didn't write it would be easy to convict Saul and Kim of being guilty of a crime. That's a high standard of evidence, and they really aren't criminally guilty, in any way, with regard to Howard's death. I wrote that credible investigation into Howard's death is going to hugely upend Saul and Kim's personal and professional lives.

Sure, but my point is that unless there's a reasonable expectation it will lead to something prosecutable, there's a decent chance it won't get to that point and even if the police dig down, they'll really struggle to get anything meaningful.  Detective Tim's spidey-senses can tingle away all they like but he still needs probable cause to keep it going.

Let's face it, Lalo has upended their lives so massively here: the police investigation will be like cleaning up the glass bottles the morning after.  As for their professional lives, even if the police have a theory, it's not like they're going to go round the courtroom telling anybody who'll listen.  I doubt either of their clientele are going to be fussed by this (it may even help Jimmy if he's arrested at the courthouse -- that's got to be worth a few more Saul videos).  It might have been a problem for Kim is she were still at S&C.  There might be mud but there's nowhere really for it to stick that it hasn't already stuck.

They might have a rough couple of days but as long as they take care of the body adequately, they'll probably be okay.

[Bannon]

19 minutes ago, gallimaufry said:

Sure, but my point is that unless there's a reasonable expectation it will lead to something prosecutable, there's a decent chance it won't get to that point and even if the police dig down, they'll really struggle to get anything meaningful.  Detective Tim's spidey-senses can tingle away all they like but he still needs probable cause to keep it going.

Let's face it, Lalo has upended their lives so massively here: the police investigation will be like cleaning up the glass bottles the morning after.  As for their professional lives, even if the police have a theory, it's not like they're going to go round the courtroom telling anybody who'll listen.  I doubt either of their clientele are going to be fussed by this (it may even help Jimmy if he's arrested at the courthouse -- that's got to be worth a few more Saul videos).  It might have been a problem for Kim is she were still at S&C.  There might be mud but there's nowhere really for it to stick that it hasn't already stuck.

They might have a rough couple of days but as long as they take care of the body adequately, they'll probably be okay.

Yeah, I just disagree. Having one of the largest criminal investigations in the history of a state, as this certainly would be, focused on Saul and Kim's relationship (the stuff with the phony PI, which would certainly be uncovered, wouldn't set off anybody's spidey sense; it'd be a 100 decibel alarm in one of the  biggest homicide cases in state history) to Howard, over the past few weeks of Howard's life would have a huge sidetracking  effect. People having their lives put under a microscope by a huge criminal investigation really can't live normal personal or professional lives, even assuming they are completely innocent. When they are up to their necks in shady acrivities, it gets even worse.

There were ways to kill off Howard, that morally implicated Saul and Kim, that didn't entail nearly as many complications as Lalo shooting him in the head in Saul and Kim's apartment. I don't think writers of this caliber are going to write that end for Howard, to simply have Saul and Kim do a good job of cleaning the crime scene, to tie up that loose end in the plot.

[scenario]

3 hours ago, Bannon said:

Yeah, I just disagree. Having one of the largest criminal investigations in the history of a state, as this certainly would be, focused on Saul and Kim's relationship (the stuff with the phony PI, which would certainly be uncovered, wouldn't set off anybody's spidey sense; it'd be a 100 decibel alarm in one of the  biggest homicide cases in state history) to Howard, over the past few weeks of Howard's life would have a huge sidetracking  effect. People having their lives put under a microscope by a huge criminal investigation really can't live normal personal or professional lives, even assuming they are completely innocent. When they are up to their necks in shady acrivities, it gets even worse.

There were ways to kill off Howard, that morally implicated Saul and Kim, that didn't entail nearly as many complications as Lalo shooting him in the head in Saul and Kim's apartment. I don't think writers of this caliber are going to write that end for Howard, to simply have Saul and Kim do a good job of cleaning the crime scene, to tie up that loose end in the plot.

From many people in stories viewpoint, Howard has been acting erratically ever since Chuck died. His marriage is falling apart. He's been known to visit low class prostitutes. He's been making wild accusations. 

He was clearly on some sort of drugs when he torpedoed his own career. He hired a detective to follow his dead partner's brother and take pictures. One of the pictures had Saul talking to a guy in a public park who looked vaguely like the judge in the case and he leapt to the conclusion that the judge was taking a bribe. 

When an important guy damages their career because of drug induced paranoia, its not uncommon for them to go away for awhile to try get their heads together. 

Saul can't fix this himself. But if Mike can make the body disappear and plant evidence of drug use in Howard's home before the police get involved, I can see the police's attitude change to searching for a man whose clearly not thinking right and is possibly suicidal. 

Which makes more sense?

1) A high end lawyer whose partner dies and whose marriage is falling apart and is under a lot of stress turns to drugs. The drugs make him paranoid and emotionally unstable and possibly suicidal. Or

2) His dead partners younger brother and his wife, a well respected attorney made up a complicated Rube Goldberg plot to destroy him. 

Option 2 sounds like Howard in a drug induced haze fell victim to a conspiracy theory. 

The telephone number change to a burner phone could be a typo. Or maybe Howard made the change himself later on. Howard was paranoid. Maybe he didn't trust the detectives chosen by Chuck and changed it without telling anyone. When Howard disappears, I wouldn't be surprised if the detective leaves town at Mike's suggestion. 

[Constantinople]

24 minutes ago, scenario said:

Saul can't fix this himself. But if Mike can make the body disappear and plant evidence of drug use in Howard's home before the police get involved

People keep saying Maine will do this. Maybe he will. But why? He's a tad occupied at the moment. And the only leverage Kim & Jimmy have over Mike would incriminate themselves and motivate Mike and for whomever he's working to kill them.

A lot of people mention Jane, but Mike didn't dispose of her body. He just did some mild cleanup, in no way comparable to what would need to be done to clean up Kim and Jimmy's place. Then he told Jesse what to say. And as Mike said, no one will bother to investigate a junkie's overdose death.

[scenario]

13 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

People keep saying Maine will do this. Maybe he will. But why? He's a tad occupied at the moment. And the only leverage Kim & Jimmy have over Mike would incriminate themselves and motivate Mike and for whomever he's working to kill them.

A lot of people mention Jane, but Mike didn't dispose of her body. He just did some mild cleanup, in no way comparable to what would need to be done to clean up Kim and Jimmy's place. Then he told Jesse what to say. And as Mike said, no one will bother to investigate a junkie's overdose death.

Howard was killed by Lalo. Dead lawyer found in Saul's apartment. Police search the area. Surveillance camera a block away got a good picture of Lalo. OMG, he's alive. Now there's an even bigger search and the Feds get involved.

Lalo will soon be buried under one of Gus's properties. Mike doesn't want the police or other crime lords to know that Lalo was in town. Now they know Lalo was in town, so they ask around. His picture is on the news. Some guy who saw Lalo take a shower tells the police that they saw him. They start searching the area around the future meth lab. They find Lalo's lair. I wonder what he was doing watching a laundry?

Lalo only has a short amount of time to attack Gus. He's likely to go after the meth lab within a few hours after the murder. Once Lalo is dead and buried, Mike will have the manpower. Gus is Gus because he doesn't take chances. He tries to tie up every loose string. And one of Lalo's victims being an important lawyer is a huge loose string. They know that Lalo's been watching the future meth lab. They don't know if he's left evidence. It is better for Gus if the cops don't suspect that Lalo's been in town. 

[Lalo Lives]

Will Kim's BUSINESS CARD (the one she gave to Wendy) come back to bite her/them? Maybe this has already been addressed.

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, scenario said:

From many people in stories viewpoint, Howard has been acting erratically ever since Chuck died. His marriage is falling apart. He's been known to visit low class prostitutes. He's been making wild accusations. 

He was clearly on some sort of drugs when he torpedoed his own career. He hired a detective to follow his dead partner's brother and take pictures. One of the pictures had Saul talking to a guy in a public park who looked vaguely like the judge in the case and he leapt to the conclusion that the judge was taking a bribe. 

When an important guy damages their career because of drug induced paranoia, its not uncommon for them to go away for awhile to try get their heads together. 

Saul can't fix this himself. But if Mike can make the body disappear and plant evidence of drug use in Howard's home before the police get involved, I can see the police's attitude change to searching for a man whose clearly not thinking right and is possibly suicidal. 

Which makes more sense?

1) A high end lawyer whose partner dies and whose marriage is falling apart and is under a lot of stress turns to drugs. The drugs make him paranoid and emotionally unstable and possibly suicidal. Or

2) His dead partners younger brother and his wife, a well respected attorney made up a complicated Rube Goldberg plot to destroy him. 

Option 2 sounds like Howard in a drug induced haze fell victim to a conspiracy theory. 

The telephone number change to a burner phone could be a typo. Or maybe Howard made the change himself later on. Howard was paranoid. Maybe he didn't trust the detectives chosen by Chuck and changed it without telling anyone. When Howard disappears, I wouldn't be surprised if the detective leaves town at Mike's suggestion. 

The phone number change was executed by a secretary, by the prompting of a phone call.  Howard's wife will have seen no evidence of drug-induced erratic behavior. Obviously, we, in the viewing audience, can choose to buy whatever we want. I see a plot of "Hey, Mike just disappeared the body, and planted some drugs, so there was no large scale investigation into a person of Howard's stature vanishing, which looked hard at Saul and Kim's relationship with Howard", as being every bit as ridiculous as BB's simulteaneous mass assassination of witnesses in seperate prisons plot device, except less understandable, because it was less necessary. In BB, the writers had simply written themselves into a corner by then. There was no corner here. Howard didn't need to be killed off in this manner, for dramatic purposes. If the writers do so, and then just hand-wave away the official consequences of the murder of a person of Howard's stature, that'll be kind of a disappointment to me. YMMV, of course.

[peeayebee]

10 hours ago, Lalo Lives said:

I DO remember that. I had thought Saul/Jimmy did that one. But this made reference to someone other than Jimmy/Saul doing it.  An on screen character writing S.G. was HER. 

HER as in a woman.

Just guessing here -- First off, "S.G. was her" is a typo; it's "S.G. was here." So, since that's the case, whoever said the whole thing about a hooded woman writing this or whatever is either wrong or trying to mislead.

[Adiba]

14 minutes ago, Bannon said:

The phone number change was executed by a secretary, by the prompting of a phone call.  Howard's wife will have seen no evidence of drug-induced erratic behavior. Obviously, we, in the viewing audience, can choose to buy whatever we want. I see a plot of "Hey, Mike just disappeared the body, and planted some drugs, so there was no large scale investigation into a person of Howard's stature vanishing, which looked hard at Saul and Kim's relationship with Howard", as being every bit as ridiculous as BB's simulteaneous mass assassination of witnesses in seperate prisons plot device, except less understandable, because it was less necessary. In BB, the writers had simply written themselves into a corner by then. There was no corner here. Howard didn't need to be killed off in this manner, for dramatic purposes. If the writers do so, and then just hand-wave away the official consequences of the murder of a person of Howard's stature, that'll be kind of a disappointment to me. YMMV, of course.

I agree that if they just hand-wave away Howard’s murder, it will be a disappointment to me as a viewer; the writers had no real reason to kill off Howard if they are going to do so. 
Saul and Kim are already scared out of their minds by the appearance of Lalo. They know he is a murderer. Lalo doesn’t have to shoot Howard to show them he means business. So, imo, the writers should have some plot purpose for Howard to be murdered by Lalo in Kim and Jimmy’s home. At least I hope they do. We’ll see.

[Bannon]

22 minutes ago, Adiba said:

I agree that if they just hand-wave away Howard’s murder, it will be a disappointment to me as a viewer; the writers had no real reason to kill off Howard if they are going to do so. 
Saul and Kim are already scared out of their minds by the appearance of Lalo. They know he is a murderer. Lalo doesn’t have to shoot Howard to show them he means business. So, imo, the writers should have some plot purpose for Howard to be murdered by Lalo in Kim and Jimmy’s home. At least I hope they do. We’ll see.

Agree completely.

[Penman61]

17 hours ago, Neiman said:

Kim and Jimmy could easily come up with a story to imply he didn't simply vanish.  It would be plausible to say he's taking an extended vacation given the recent fiasco, and I doubt anyone would question that.  Kim and Jimmy can be very convincing, as we've seen.  Sending Howard on a "vacation" would be easy compared to what they've done recently.

This is plausible.

And it also reminds me of "9 to 5" hijinks/deceptions and makes me laugh to imagine Jim & Kimmy spinning to make everyone think Howard is alive and just around the corner...

Edited June 1, 2022 by Penman61

[Tatum]

1 hour ago, Adiba said:

I agree that if they just hand-wave away Howard’s murder, it will be a disappointment to me as a viewer; the writers had no real reason to kill off Howard if they are going to do so. 
Saul and Kim are already scared out of their minds by the appearance of Lalo. They know he is a murderer. Lalo doesn’t have to shoot Howard to show them he means business. So, imo, the writers should have some plot purpose for Howard to be murdered by Lalo in Kim and Jimmy’s home. At least I hope they do. We’ll see.

I would hope the writers are above killing off Howard just to shock the audience, and have a plot related reason for it. But I don't know that it will be legal/criminal consequences for Jimmy and Kim- it might be more about the consequences to their relationship. Which personally would be more interesting to me than seeing all of their misdeeds unraveling in a public way. I think after the initial shock of Howard's murder wears off, these two are going to have very different feelings about the situation and how they should move forward. I wonder if it's going to come to light that Kim knew about Lalo potentially being in the area. I could forgive a hand wave of Howard's murder/disappearance investigation if this is the writers' endgame.

[peeayebee]

1 hour ago, Adiba said:

I agree that if they just hand-wave away Howard’s murder, it will be a disappointment to me as a viewer; the writers had no real reason to kill off Howard if they are going to do so. 
Saul and Kim are already scared out of their minds by the appearance of Lalo. They know he is a murderer. Lalo doesn’t have to shoot Howard to show them he means business. So, imo, the writers should have some plot purpose for Howard to be murdered by Lalo in Kim and Jimmy’s home. At least I hope they do. We’ll see.

I don't think they'll hand-wave away Howard's murder, but I don't think it'll matter much plot wise. The biggest impact of the murder is how it'll effect K&J. It was the button to their big joke of a scam.

Although I kind of think that the shooting WAS an intimidation factor, as I said before I don't think that was really on Lalo's mind. Killing is so ingrained, so natural, that he will instinctively kill because he knows it will benefit him somehow. 

I think the main reason he killed Howard is because Howard was in the way. Lalo had business to discuss. Like Patrick Fabian said in interviews, Howard was a bug to Lalo. "Who's this guy? [squish]." Killing means nothing to Lalo. And that is important. Howard was killed for no reason. I think that makes his death even more tragic.

[PeterPirate]

41 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

I don't think they'll hand-wave away Howard's murder, but I don't think it'll matter much plot wise. The biggest impact of the murder is how it'll effect K&J.

Exactly.  There really isn't much ground to cover regarding plot such that things will fit into BB.  

Lalo already suspects Saul of lying to him about the events in the desert.  He may still be unconvinced when he leaves the condo to go take care of Gus.  And he may accuse Saul of working with Nacho on the hit at the Salamanca compound.  That right there will tie things up regarding Saul's statements when he is kidnapped. 

Saul and Gus never meet in BB, so there's no plot needed there.  Everything else is about wrapping up Saul's and Gus' personalities.  Plus either bringing Kim's story to completion, or setting the stage for Wexworld.  

[Eulipian 5k]

20 hours ago, Bannon said:

Which means phone dumps for both

You forgot how Saul made his name! Saul has a drawer full of burner phones for just such occasions. The call to change the PI's no., the PI, all lead to someone trolling Howard but don't lead to Kim or Jimmy. The only concrete evidence the cops can get is blood spatter in Kim's apt. Neither Kim or Saul fired the pistol that killed Howard. Maybe Jimmy blames it on Ignacio, a former, disappeared, client, lol? His other former client (Lalo), died several weeks ago, as far as the authorities know.

[Eulipian 5k]

On 5/28/2022 at 7:47 PM, PeterPirate said:

There was the sequence as they were preparing Lenny for the re-shoot.  It must have taken a fair amount of time and effort to choreograph having the camera revolve around the actors.  Maybe they just wanted to do something artsy-fartsy without intending any symbolic meaning.  

That's why you don't get to use the good camera!😊 Please pay attention to all the film school techniques used in filming the scenes with Jimmy's auteurs.

[Bannon]

15 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

You forgot how Saul made his name! Saul has a drawer full of burner phones for just such occasions. The call to change the PI's no., the PI, all lead to someone trolling Howard but don't lead to Kim or Jimmy. The only concrete evidence the cops can get is blood spatter in Kim's apt. Neither Kim or Saul fired the pistol that killed Howard. Maybe Jimmy blames it on Ignacio, a former, disappeared, client, lol? His other former client (Lalo), died several weeks ago, as far as the authorities know.

I wasn't suggesting that evidence exists that would result in Saul and Kim being indicted for Howard's murder. They wouldn't be indicted for that, in good measure because they are in no way legally responsible for Howard's murder.

[gallimaufry]

11 hours ago, Bannon said:

Yeah, I just disagree. Having one of the largest criminal investigations in the history of a state, as this certainly would be,

Interesting reasoning - I must admit, I never imagined it would be this big.  I just googled it and ABQ alone has averaged over 40 homicides a year for the last several decades.  Howard is a relatively big figure in the local community, and it will be huge news in the small ABQ legal world, but he's hardly a household name.  I don't know what the numbers are for wealthy people who develop a cocaine addiction late in life and end up dying tragically but I'm guessing it's been known to happen.  And Howard, as Jimmy once said, isn't exactly "warm and relatable" for the front pages.  It will make the news once or twice but I think that's as far as I'd expect it to go.

(For that matter, the only person who can speak to the details of Howard's allegations against Jimmy is Cliff who doesn't necessarily need to tell the police anything.  Cliff might feel that he wants to spare Howard the indignity of it getting out just how unhinged and crazy he sounded in his final hours).

If anything, I think they could play the opposite tack: that Kim and Jimmy are simultaneously sickened and fascinated by the absolute lack of what they feel should be the consequences.  That the police don't really key into the nuances and let things slide.  That they can use a bit of razzle-dazzle and the system buckles.  That Cliff folds and resigns himself to what he thinks he saw.  That everybody just buys that Howard was an addict and died tragically and life goes on and they've won.

This is what galled Jimmy in the wake of Chuck's death and why he turned down the sales job he was perfect for -- he couldn't believe how unjust the world was where he could put on some razzle-dazzle and there was no Chuck figure to lay down the law.  And Kim as well seemed to kind of like her mother setting boundaries until she realised it was all a lie.  The Gilliverse is often less about mechanistic external obstacles than internal struggles and it seems to me that wrestling with the fact that they could get away with covering up a murder could have a far more devastating effect on them as people than a protracted investigation.  

For Jimmy, it would certainly vindicate his murder-happy outlook in BB if this has made him feel invulnerable.  Remember in BB his whole "Goose egg. Bupkis.  That's what the cops got" attitude towards Hank.  This would certainly be enforced by managing to get away with a crime they feel morally if not literally guilty of.  For Kim... goodness only knows.  I'd like to think she's straighten out but her S3 line about "the fallacy of sunk costs" seems to be so prophetic for her that I wonder.

(I have a hunch, and it's a bit of wild speculation I admit, but I have a hunch that at some point in the next episode we're going to find that Howard isn't the first murder she's covered up.)

[Adiba]

4 hours ago, Tatum said:

I would hope the writers are above killing off Howard just to shock the audience, and have a plot related reason for it. But I don't know that it will be legal/criminal consequences for Jimmy and Kim- it might be more about the consequences to their relationship. Which personally would be more interesting to me than seeing all of their misdeeds unraveling in a public way. I think after the initial shock of Howard's murder wears off, these two are going to have very different feelings about the situation and how they should move forward. I wonder if it's going to come to light that Kim knew about Lalo potentially being in the area. I could forgive a hand wave of Howard's murder/disappearance investigation if this is the writers' endgame.

Right, that’s sort of what I meant by my post. By “plot purpose” I was including how Howard’s murder also will affect Kim and Jimmy regarding their marriage. 
That, for me, is the main reason I’m watching the show now. I know what happens to the characters in BB. And, unless “Gene” has some sort of redemption arc, I really don’t care.
I also would hope that the writers at least give us some semblance or hint of an investigation into Howard’s murder/ disappearance— it doesn’t have to dovetail into anything about the Gus/Lalo situation for it to make sense to me, as a viewer.
I hope I’m not being too pedantic here. I just would feel extremely annoyed if the show completely glosses over the murder with no one poking around.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Adiba

[Bannon]

5 minutes ago, gallimaufry said:

Interesting reasoning - I must admit, I never imagined it would be this big.  I just googled it and ABQ alone has averaged over 40 homicides a year for the last several decades.  Howard is a relatively big figure in the local community, and it will be huge news in the small ABQ legal world, but he's hardly a household name.  I don't know what the numbers are for wealthy people who develop a cocaine addiction late in life and end up dying tragically but I'm guessing it's been known to happen.  And Howard, as Jimmy once said, isn't exactly "warm and relatable" for the front pages.  It will make the news once or twice but I think that's as far as I'd expect it to go.

(For that matter, the only person who can speak to the details of Howard's allegations against Jimmy is Cliff who doesn't necessarily need to tell the police anything.  Cliff might feel that he wants to spare Howard the indignity of it getting out just how unhinged and crazy he sounded in his final hours).

If anything, I think they could play the opposite tack: that Kim and Jimmy are simultaneously sickened and fascinated by the absolute lack of what they feel should be the consequences.  That the police don't really key into the nuances and let things slide.  That they can use a bit of razzle-dazzle and the system buckles.  That Cliff folds and resigns himself to what he thinks he saw.  That everybody just buys that Howard was an addict and died tragically and life goes on and they've won.

This is what galled Jimmy in the wake of Chuck's death and why he turned down the sales job he was perfect for -- he couldn't believe how unjust the world was where he could put on some razzle-dazzle and there was no Chuck figure to lay down the law.  And Kim as well seemed to kind of like her mother setting boundaries until she realised it was all a lie.  The Gilliverse is often less about mechanistic external obstacles than internal struggles and it seems to me that wrestling with the fact that they could get away with covering up a murder could have a far more devastating effect on them as people than a protracted investigation.  

For Jimmy, it would certainly vindicate his murder-happy outlook in BB if this has made him feel invulnerable.  Remember in BB his whole "Goose egg. Bupkis.  That's what the cops got" attitude towards Hank.  This would certainly be enforced by managing to get away with a crime they feel morally if not literally guilty of.  For Kim... goodness only knows.  I'd like to think she's straighten out but her S3 line about "the fallacy of sunk costs" seems to be so prophetic for her that I wonder.

(I have a hunch, and it's a bit of wild speculation I admit, but I have a hunch that at some point in the next episode we're going to find that Howard isn't the first murder she's covered up.)

The senior partner in one of a state's largest law firms is by default much more than a relatively important figure. His body turning up with a bullet through the brain, or if he simply vanishes, would be huge, huge, deal within the state. Lawyers like that are inevitably politically connected. Every aspect of his personal life over the last few months would be subjected to minute examination, and the "hey he was a strung out junkie" trope would only prompt further digging. Every call that Howard made in the last 6 months would he looked at, which likely brings in the guy who ran the boxing gym. Even Howard's therapist might have to talk to the police, if the police seek a court order to do so. 

I just can't buy somebody of Howard's stature having his gunshot body, or his vanishing, dismissed like a typical murder victim's, with a " Hey, he was a junkie, amiright? We don't have to go the full distance on this one."

[PeterPirate]

2 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

That's why you don't get to use the good camera!😊 Please pay attention to all the film school techniques used in filming the scenes with Jimmy's auteurs.

Oy, that scene just made me dizzy.  Elf Girl was cute with the Vulcan ears, though.

Seriously, thinking about the film crew reminded me about the first time we saw them, when Jimmy pulled his billboard stunt.  And now I am thinking that J&K are going to play themselves up as victims, since they had to watch in horror as Howard blew his brains out in their home.  Cliff Main may go along with the suicide story in order to protect Howard's reputation, and maybe his own as well.  Law enforcement will be more than happy to close the case quickly, and the rest of the legal community in NM will accept it.  

[Bannon]

15 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Oy, that scene just made me dizzy.  Elf Girl was cute with the Vulcan ears, though.

Seriously, thinking about the film crew reminded me about the first time we saw them, when Jimmy pulled his billboard stunt.  And now I am thinking that J&K are going to play themselves up as victims, since they had to watch in horror as Howard blew his brains out in their home.  Cliff Main may go along with the suicide story in order to protect Howard's reputation, and maybe his own as well.  Law enforcement will be more than happy to close the case quickly, and the rest of the legal community in NM will accept it.  

If Howard's death is easily written off by law enforcement as a suicide, by way of a pistol without any previous connection to Howard, or worse, a pistol reported as stolen, that's just unforced bad writing. I can't believe the writers would fumble this so badly with 6 episodes to go.

The body really has to vanish. They can't count on Howard's hair not being tested for drug use, which will establish the ",Howard was a drug addict" story as a lie. Frankly, even vanishing the body is a problem in this respect. Howard's wife might of considered the marriage over, but a disappearing husband is still a huge oroblem for her. Hell, she even still might love him on some level! When people try to inform her that Howard was using drugs, she's not going to simply swallow that story hook, line, and sinker, and  she has access to a hair brush that will contain Howard's hair follicles. She's not a dummy. 

I really hope the writers don't try to make it look easy to get away with murdering, or concealing the murder of, prominent people who you didn't plan on getting murdered, because you had some white stuff in an envelope fall out of his locker, and managed to get his eyes dilated.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Bannon

[Starchild]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

If Howard's death is easily written off by law enforcement as a suicide, by way of a pistol without any previous connection to Howard, or worse, a pistol reported as stolen, that's just unforced bad writing. I can't believe the writers would fumble this so badly with 6 episodes to go.

The body really has to vanish. They can't count on Howard's hair not being tested for drug use, which will establish the ",Howard was a drug addict" story as a lie. Frankly, even vanishing the body is a problem in this respect. Howard's wife might of considered the marriage over, but a disappearing husband is still a huge oroblem for her. Hell, she even still might love him on some level! When people try to inform her that Howard was using drugs, she's not going to simply swallow that story hook, line, and sinker, and  she has access to a hair brush that will contain Howard's hair follicles. She's not a dummy. 

I really hope the writers don't try to make it look easy to get away with murdering, or concealing the murder of, prominent people who you didn't plan on getting murdered, because you had some white stuff in an envelope fall out of his locker, and managed to get his eyes dilated.

Agree totally. We know Saul continues to practice after these events, so consequences for him were minimal. But Kim could still pay dearly, and she kind of deserves to. Let's hope that comes to pass, for Howard's sake.

And Chuck's too, frankly. Jimmy really deserves that one, so here's hoping Gene eventually gets it for that, one way or another, delayed though it may be.

[PeterPirate]

49 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Frankly, even vanishing the body is a problem in this respect.

Yeah.  There is no perfect way for J&K to deal with Howard's death, as well as account for the presence of the Namast3mobile in the parking lot.  I just think staging a suicide is the "best" way.  Plus, character-wise, if (when) they get away with it, it will increase their belief in their own invincibility.  

[Bannon]

1 minute ago, PeterPirate said:

Yeah.  There is no perfect way for J&K to deal with Howard's death, as well as account for the presence of the Namast3mobile in the parking lot.  I just think staging a suicide is the "best" way.  Plus, character-wise, if (when) they get away with it, it will increase their belief in their own invincibility.  

I just cannot buy, under any circumstance, that law enforcement would believe for even a tenth of a second, that Howard killed himself in S&K's apartment, with a pistol that had zero previous connection to Howard.

About two minutes after I watched the scene of Lalo shooting Howard, I thought, "How in the hell are they going to try to plot around the practical consequences of that murder?". A week later, I am more curious. Can't wait to find out.

[Bannon]

Can you imagine the contempt Mike will have for Saul, if Kim takes some sort of legal or professional fall for him, while he completely skates? Worse yet, if something violent befalls her?

[Cinnabon]

25 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Can you imagine the contempt Mike will have for Saul, if Kim takes some sort of legal or professional fall for him, while he completely skates? Worse yet, if something violent befalls her?

Mike is in no place to judge.

[SailorGirl]

Are Mike's guys still watching Kim and Jimmy? Or did Mike pull everyone from every location to protect Gus based on Lalo's call to the tapped phone line at Casa Tranquila? If Mike's guys are still at the Jimmy/Kim location, we know Mike will quickly call in a clean-up team. I'm thinking Mike et al are going to set up Howard's murder to look like a suicide. 

[SimplexFish]

People keep suggesting they will make Howard's death look like a suicide. Besides a dozen things wrong with the mechanics of it not actually being self inflicted and trying to make it appear that it was, do you think that Lalo is going to leave his gun there? A self inflicted gun shot will have the firearm very close by.

Edited June 2, 2022 by SimplexFish

[SailorGirl]

9 minutes ago, SimplexFish said:

People keep suggesting they will make Howard's death look like a suicide. Besides a dozen things wrong with the mechanics of it not actually being self inflicted and trying to make it appear that it was, do you think that Lalo is going to leave his gun there? A self inflicted gun shot will have the firearm very close by.

So what's your take on how they're going to manage Howard's death? 

I seem to recall Mike staging a murder to look like a suicide in BB, so it is among his skill set. 

I'm sure Mike would have access to whatever type of gun Lalo has. Fire a bullet using Howard's hand and Howard now has gunshot residue on his hand. Given Howard's erratic behavior, I doubt they would go so far as to match the bullet to the specific gun. Police: "He shot himself with a XY-caliber gun name and we found an XY-caliber gun on site."  Suicide would be a logical conclusion. 
 

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Cinnabon said:

Mike is in no place to judge.

Of course not, but it would be epic.

[SimplexFish]

Well a couple of problems I see...How far was the gun from Howards head when Lalo fired it? In any event he silencer would make the gun further away from his head, would his arm be long enough? The police can tell how far away the gun was from the entry point. I would also assume that a silencer would expel a different gun powder spray. 

The main prob I see is... IF Howard committed suicide right in front of S and K they would call 911 immediately. By the time Mike would arrive and set up the scene the body would be in rigor mortis.  If Mike would try and move the body to a different location it would be impossible to stage it with blood splatted and brain and skull matter to be a suicide, the crime scene investigation will be extensive so someone like the death of Howard..

Also why would Mike leave protecting Gus to help S and K?

Im not saying that's not the way the writers are gonna go I just think they will be more creative and believable.

Edited June 2, 2022 by SimplexFish

[Constantinople]

1 hour ago, SailorGirl said:

I seem to recall Mike staging a murder to look like a suicide in BB, so it is among his skill set.

I honestly don't remember that happening in Breaking Bad, though presumably he or Gus's men disposed of bodies, such as the cartel men Mike killed who went after Chow.

[PeterPirate]

Here is how the suicide scenario could work.

Lalo takes the bullets out of the gun and puts in one blank cartridge.  He removes the silencer and leaves the gun behind when he leaves.  Jimmy places the gun in Howard's hand, puts it to Howard's head, and pulls the trigger.  Kim screams loud enough to wake the neighbors.  

Somewhat conveniently, Howard looked at J&K right before Lalo fired, so the shot entered from the side and not the front. 

This plan requires Lalo to carry more than one gun along with blanks for just such situations.  And I heard that blank cartridges look different than real live rounds so gangsters and movie stars can tell them apart.  So a sharp detective could sniff out the fake suicide.  

However, any other plan relies on nobody else at the complex noticing the Jaguar in the parking lot.  That, I submit, is less believable than the suicide scenario.  

Edited June 2, 2022 by PeterPirate

[PurpleTentacle]

On 5/24/2022 at 3:49 AM, Spartan Girl said:

You know you’re past the point of no return when you’re literally getting off on watching your revenge plan come together.

Who doesn't get frisky by a complicated plan well executed?

I wasn't sure if Howard really deserved it, while I watched this episode, but thinking about it afterwards, what did they really do to him? They took him down a peg. It wouldn't have done any permanent damage to his career or his financial situation.

Most importantly they got the sand piper residents their money. The lawyers were content in dragging that out for years and years. The two years they were talking about would have easily turned into 5, probably more. After lawyers fees for all those billable hours, the residents probably wouldn't have gotten any more than they are getting now. Not to mention all the residents that would have been dead by then. That it's all a scam, for the lawyers to get rich, has been Jimmy's stance for a few seasons now.

Of course Howard didn't deserve to be murdered, but Kim and Jimmy really couldn't foresee that one.

[PurpleTentacle]

On 5/24/2022 at 10:58 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Yup, it's definitely the final season, y'all!  Outside of those we know will be sticking around for Breaking Bad, I'm starting to think everyone else is fair game here (although I'm actually starting to think Kim might make it since they won't go through all of their non-BB regulars.  Right?)

I still think she's the "Mrs. Goodman" Saul talkes about from time to time. BB is so close, I don't think he has time to get a new wife. Of course he could just be lying about being married, but why would he?

Also I don't think the Jimmy we know would just carry on with this upbeat persona if Kim was murdered.

On 5/24/2022 at 1:21 PM, Blakeston said:

I don't think Howard was an incorrigible prick, or comparable to the Ken Wins guy at all.

He's been a jerk on a few occasions, but he's also been a good guy plenty of times, too. He was far more patient with Chuck than almost anyone else would have been. He and the other partners agreed to pay for Kim, a mail room employee, to go to law school. And unlike Jimmy and Kim, he became a better person over the course of time.

Those things are certainly true. But he still wasn't above bleeding old people, who don't have much time left, for years and years.

On 5/24/2022 at 1:54 PM, Rickster said:

I’d really doubt the body will be found in the apartment. Also forensics (powder residue) won’t support suicide either. He might end up buried in the desert.

That's super easy to fake. Just fire another gun with the dead guys hand. The angle Howard was shot at is consistent with suicide and so is the close range. Also no sign of a strugle since there was no strugle.

Blood pooling could be a problem, since you can't exactly use Howard's, since it's all over the floor of Jimmy's and Kim's apartment, but for that to actually be a problem, they'd have to DNA test it and why would they?

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Who doesn't get frisky by a complicated plan well executed?

I wasn't sure if Howard really deserved it, while I watched this episode, but thinking about it afterwards, what did they really do to him? They took him down a peg. It wouldn't have done any permanent damage to his career or his financial situation.

Most importantly they got the sand piper residents their money. The lawyers were content in dragging that out for years and years. The two years they were talking about would have easily turned into 5, probably more. After lawyers fees for all those billable hours, the residents probably wouldn't have gotten any more than they are getting now. Not to mention all the residents that would have been dead by then. That it's all a scam, for the lawyers to get rich, has been Jimmy's stance for a few seasons now.

Of course Howard didn't deserve to be murdered, but Kim and Jimmy really couldn't foresee that one.

Amen.

[Bannon]

There isn't a chance in hell that law enforcement is going to accept that the senior partner of one of a state's largest law firms killed himself with either a stolen or untraceable pistol, at the.apartment of two lawyers that he's had previous bad dealings with. That's before we get to the fact that bodies of powerful people with bullets through the head get thorough autopsies, which would mean it's proven that Howard wasn't taking drugs.

If these writers have law enforcement buying Howard's death as a suicide, that'll be an incredible decline in writing quality.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Bannon

[Lalo Lives]

spitballing here, lots of holes in this theory…

also don’t know why BOLD font is on PERMANENTLY!?

————————————————-
A trip to BELIZE for “Howard”.

Howard could be dumped over the balcony railing, a la El Camino.

Jimmy slaps on the Howard (Hit and Run?) costume of knit tie, tie bar, spray tan, whiteout on the choppers…..and GOES to Belize. Literally. This is assuming they can grab his passport somehow. He’s in the guest house so maybe it’s not too hard to sneak in and steal it. Or forge one which is NOT easy.

After a brief stay, Jimmy comes back (somehow- maybe a few hay bus trips) but Howard never does.

Cleanup not too difficult IF no suspicion exists concerning their dwelling.

Clorox, spackle, paint, LOTS of elbow grease. (That paint better MATCH!)

and they better find the bullet. Implied due to wall spatter.

If there is any suspicion about bad things happening in their apartment they are toast. Cleanup is muy difficult.

All this hocus pocus about powder burns, blanks, etc. depends on the interest of the investigators. ANY suspicion and that sort of thing is easily found. Different powders have different burn rates, colors of burn marks/scorching, even particles of powder. Not all of it burns. Powders are different shapes and sizes. These differences are visible to the naked eye. Even different smells. Authorities will be scratching their heads asking why there are two types of powder on/in Howard’s head.

”oh, somebody is covering up a murder”.

Also, a contact second shot will send gasses inside. That could get messy. Heads expand. Maybe if there is an exit wound, and there should be considering the spatter on the wall, the gasses will jet out there. But if no exit wound, or if it is clogged up, that head will open somewhere. Close contact suicides or homicides to the head are NOTHING like on tv/movies. They are horribly ugly.

So, best to dispose of the body via the balcony gravity test. Then the vet can use his pet crematorium to turn Howard into an urn dweller.

THIS is all hinging on their ability to get out of Lalo’s clutches.

Lalo kidnaps Kim, she becomes his lawyer, Jimmy/Saul is now pressured to do what Lalo says, and Lalo lays low in Mexico. He does not get an invite to the fateful Tequila tasting party at Eladio’s house. He and Kim were doing YouTube cooking videos and had a deadline to get 7 million views.

[peeayebee]

4 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

I wasn't sure if Howard really deserved it, while I watched this episode, but thinking about it afterwards, what did they really do to him? They took him down a peg. It wouldn't have done any permanent damage to his career or his financial situation.

Yes, Howard agreed that he would land on his feet. But still, would YOU want to go thru what he did? The humiliation, the stress, the stain on your reputation, the strain on your marriage? Does it all come down to, Can't you take a joke? 

To J&K, this was a fun prank that accomplished two things: 1) it got the Sandpiper residents their money, and 2) it humiliated Howard. I think Kim was more concerned with #2. Jimmy wasn't up for that at the beginning, but he wanted to give Kim what she wanted. Of course he also had resentment toward Howard, and getting the Sandpiper case settled was a bonus. But they also simply enjoy scams. They literally get off on them. As Howard said, they did it just to do it, just to get away with it and show that they're the smartest people in the room.

Quote

Of course Howard didn't deserve to be murdered, but Kim and Jimmy really couldn't foresee that one.

Unintended consequences. The best laid plans and all that.

As far as setting up the murder as suicide, I really don't see that happening. Occam's razor, the simplest solution is to disappear the body. Mike will likely handle that. 

[PeterPirate]

57 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

As far as setting up the murder as suicide, I really don't see that happening. Occam's razor, the simplest solution is to disappear the body. Mike will likely handle that. 

Problem is, they also have to disappear the Namast3mobile.  And they have to get Howard's body out of the condo without anyone seeing it.  

Just saying, if I found myself in that situation and I had access to a blank cartridge, I would take my chances with the fake suicide.  

Edited June 2, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Tatum]

5 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

I wasn't sure if Howard really deserved it, while I watched this episode, but thinking about it afterwards, what did they really do to him? They took him down a peg. It wouldn't have done any permanent damage to his career or his financial situation.

Most importantly they got the sand piper residents their money. The lawyers were content in dragging that out for years and years. The two years they were talking about would have easily turned into 5, probably more. After lawyers fees for all those billable hours, the residents probably wouldn't have gotten any more than they are getting now. Not to mention all the residents that would have been dead by then. That it's all a scam, for the lawyers to get rich, has been Jimmy's stance for a few seasons now.

I would find it more forgivable if I really thought the end game was getting the Sandpiper residents their money, and Howard was unfortunate collateral damage, but I think Kim pretty clearly stated last season she wanted the case settled sooner because she wanted Jimmy's cut to fund her pro bono criminal defense firm. She hasn't mentioned it this season so maybe they are dropping that, but she definitely said it last season. And it seemed like embarrassing Howard was really their main goal here- I am sure they could have found a way to force a settlement without embarrassing him, if they are willing to commit car theft, drugging people, making fake videos, planting drugs, etc. in the name of their plan. I especially think they crossed the line drugging him. That could have really scared someone to have a reaction like that.