Jump to content

Type keyword(s) to search

S04.E19: Out of Hiding

Whimsy

By Whimsy
in A Million Little Things

  • Reply
  • Start Topic

Recommended Posts

historylover820

historylover820

TV Tropes has a trope about prestigious colleges and how easy it seems to get into those: Ivy League for Everyone. The description of the trope follows:

Despite being considered among the most selective colleges in the United States, with admission rates from 6% to 16%, Ivy League schools show up frequently in fiction. In teen dramas, a main character (or two) will always get accepted into an Ivy League school. Expect this to become a key part of high school senior year stress, whether the character is trying to get into a certain Ivy League school, or deciding between an Ivy League college far away from home and a local college that keeps the show in the same setting.

In a particularly extreme version of this trope, there will be an "Ivy League or nothing!" mentality implying that if a character doesn't get into an Ivy League school, then their only other option is going to community college and hopefully learning how to tell when their pimp is cutting their crack with baking soda. If they get in, don't expect the characters to actually discuss their coursework or major, the name is enough to convince the audience that it's prestigious and important and that's all that matters.

In the case that we're past the high school setting, this information will commonly show up in a character's educational background. Usually this will be done as a shorthand to show that a character is either smart, ambitious, or filthy rich. The rule about not discussing coursework also holds at this stage, so expect characters to somehow get stellar grades even when they're never actually seen studying at any point.

This has been popularized in part by Author Appeal—if a writer went to the Ivy Leagues, they might enjoy name-dropping the institution to show off how cool they are. Beyond that, it's just plain convenient - saying that a character came from or is going to a prestigious university is a quick way to show the audience they're well-educated, hardworking or intelligent, and beyond that more prestigious colleges simply have national or even international name recognition less prestigious schools won't.

A few institutions that aren't actually in the Ivy League but have strong reputations in certain contexts also count for this trope. Engineering hopefuls always go to MIT or Caltech. Elite students on the West Coast go to Stanford. Juilliard is this for the performing arts. Before the Ivies went co-ed, the Seven Sisters schools were this for women. In Japanese stories, the college of choice is typically Tokyo University, or "Todai".

 

"To show a character is either smart, ambitious, or filthy rich." and it shows the audience the character is "well-educated, hardworking or intelligent." Tyrell is none of those things, no matter how entitled or intelligent he thinks he is. 

Yeah, I agree with izabella above. I have my bachelors degree from a small state university (Emporia State University. Ever heard of it? I doubt it, unless you're from Kansas), and I have my masters degree from Oklahoma State University (which I bet most of you have heard of, but it's hardly this kind of prestigious institution). And while, in my experience, employers around here are impressed to learn that I've got a masters degree, because I've proven that I have the intelligence and the determination to see things through, if I'm competing against an Ivy Leaguer, it's game over. Ivy Leaguers have access to renowned professors and job opportunities I never had.

Granted, I didn't have nearly the student loans most Ivy Leaguers get, even with an advanced degree, because I went to state institutions. (I'm seeing light at the end of the tunnel with my student loans!) But there is an unfair disadvantage here. Luckily, I'm not looking for a new job at this time, and there's not an overwhelming job market here in Kansas City for Ivy Leaguers. 

Even in spite of the description above, I just don't understand why every single character in shows and movies dreams of the Ivy League. It never even occurred to me in high school to apply for the Ivy League. Oh, I mused about it "What if I applied?" but the registration fee was a lot more than I was making being a part-time grocery checker, and I never even submitted an application to any of them. Plus, what chance would a small-town Kansas farm girl have at Yale? I would have been eaten alive! So I stuck with my "safety schools" (didn't even have one that wasn't a "safety school.") And, I'm pleased with my education.

  • Love 5
circumvent

circumvent

1 hour ago, izabella said:

Prestigious schools have mediocre students, stellar students, and bad students, just like everywhere else.  At mine (not Yale), they told us at orientation the first day to look at the person sitting next to us, because only one of us would actually graduate.  All that money pays for world class professors, scientists, libraries, labs, sports, the works.  What they also have is high name recognition, so "normal, struggling" students do get a leg up they wouldn't get otherwise.  Whatever anyone thinks of prestigious schools, they are prestigious, and even a poor immigrant like me was able to use that school name to get entree into jobs I never even imagined existed, much less that I could be hired for them. 

My badly made point was that, statistically, a student that is not already privileged, preferably with parents that went to a prestigious institute, don't necessarily do better than students in the the same social class - not privileged offspring of alumni - that attend colleges that are not an Ivy League school. It doesn't mean that success stories don't exist and that there is an initial "leg up" to those graduating. But it is not, factually, a measure of success. Just collected data that shows the number of Ivy League alumni that got there by other means than privilege are not really benefiting that much in the professional area. Obviously, individual stories are different and if someone does well enough, good for them. But they are the exception, not the rule.

As for the money, that's a whole different beast. A lot of it is government subsidies and if it seems that they have more/better, it is just the politics of this country. It might be important for the professors and lecturers but the students are taught by assistant professors, meeting the "VIPs" maybe once. That's why some of those schools had a strike recently. Assistants do the whole work of very expensive classes headlined by a VIP that sometimes doesn't even live in the same state. It is making a name because they have a name. Circular privilege, sometimes a few get in but mst are outside the circle

  • Love 1
circumvent

circumvent

19 minutes ago, historylover820 said:

Ivy Leaguers have access to renowned professors and job opportunities I never had.

True, but to reinforce my point above, if you had gone to an Ivy League and applied for a job with someone else that had also gone to an Ivy  League, the one hired would be the one more privileged.

If the other applicant had not gone an Ivy League and you had, you would probably have gotten the job but you would be an exception because class will always beat credentials, and it is a tiny minority of non-privileged or under privileged students that get accepted in big name schools. 

It is just a matter of numbers. Ivy Leagues have a much larger proportion of already privileged, even not deserving, students that are there because mom, dad, grandpa, grandma, went there. Those don't even have to worry about getting in, their place in reserved as soon as they are born and the family makes a big donation to be collected about 18 years later. Even new money people have to buy their way in.

SunnyBeBe

SunnyBeBe

(edited)

Oh, I almost forgot…..ref. Tyrell….he just turned 18, so…..I recall when I was 18.  I knew it all!  It’s amazing how smart I was…..in my mind! And, I was very stubborn too.😝  Lol In all honesty, I still believe I was right about a lot of stuff, but not as much as I thought.  I was smart about education though.  I was laser focused on education, with boys on the side and excelling with academics and working hard to get there.  When scholarships came my way, I accepted and utilized them.  I tended to listen to people other than my parents.  But, that’s how we learn life’s lessons, I suppose. 

Edited by SunnyBeBe
  • Love 3
OpalNightstream

OpalNightstream

On 5/14/2022 at 11:49 AM, historylover820 said:

TV Tropes has a trope about prestigious colleges and how easy it seems to get into those: Ivy League for Everyone. The description of the trope follows:

Despite being considered among the most selective colleges in the United States, with admission rates from 6% to 16%, Ivy League schools show up frequently in fiction. In teen dramas, a main character (or two) will always get accepted into an Ivy League school. Expect this to become a key part of high school senior year stress, whether the character is trying to get into a certain Ivy League school, or deciding between an Ivy League college far away from home and a local college that keeps the show in the same setting.

In a particularly extreme version of this trope, there will be an "Ivy League or nothing!" mentality implying that if a character doesn't get into an Ivy League school, then their only other option is going to community college and hopefully learning how to tell when their pimp is cutting their crack with baking soda. If they get in, don't expect the characters to actually discuss their coursework or major, the name is enough to convince the audience that it's prestigious and important and that's all that matters.

In the case that we're past the high school setting, this information will commonly show up in a character's educational background. Usually this will be done as a shorthand to show that a character is either smart, ambitious, or filthy rich. The rule about not discussing coursework also holds at this stage, so expect characters to somehow get stellar grades even when they're never actually seen studying at any point.

This has been popularized in part by Author Appeal—if a writer went to the Ivy Leagues, they might enjoy name-dropping the institution to show off how cool they are. Beyond that, it's just plain convenient - saying that a character came from or is going to a prestigious university is a quick way to show the audience they're well-educated, hardworking or intelligent, and beyond that more prestigious colleges simply have national or even international name recognition less prestigious schools won't.

A few institutions that aren't actually in the Ivy League but have strong reputations in certain contexts also count for this trope. Engineering hopefuls always go to MIT or Caltech. Elite students on the West Coast go to Stanford. Juilliard is this for the performing arts. Before the Ivies went co-ed, the Seven Sisters schools were this for women. In Japanese stories, the college of choice is typically Tokyo University, or "Todai".

 

"To show a character is either smart, ambitious, or filthy rich." and it shows the audience the character is "well-educated, hardworking or intelligent." Tyrell is none of those things, no matter how entitled or intelligent he thinks he is. 

Yeah, I agree with izabella above. I have my bachelors degree from a small state university (Emporia State University. Ever heard of it? I doubt it, unless you're from Kansas), and I have my masters degree from Oklahoma State University (which I bet most of you have heard of, but it's hardly this kind of prestigious institution). And while, in my experience, employers around here are impressed to learn that I've got a masters degree, because I've proven that I have the intelligence and the determination to see things through, if I'm competing against an Ivy Leaguer, it's game over. Ivy Leaguers have access to renowned professors and job opportunities I never had.

Granted, I didn't have nearly the student loans most Ivy Leaguers get, even with an advanced degree, because I went to state institutions. (I'm seeing light at the end of the tunnel with my student loans!) But there is an unfair disadvantage here. Luckily, I'm not looking for a new job at this time, and there's not an overwhelming job market here in Kansas City for Ivy Leaguers. 

Even in spite of the description above, I just don't understand why every single character in shows and movies dreams of the Ivy League. It never even occurred to me in high school to apply for the Ivy League. Oh, I mused about it "What if I applied?" but the registration fee was a lot more than I was making being a part-time grocery checker, and I never even submitted an application to any of them. Plus, what chance would a small-town Kansas farm girl have at Yale? I would have been eaten alive! So I stuck with my "safety schools" (didn't even have one that wasn't a "safety school.") And, I'm pleased with my education.

My recent favorite is on This is Us where a teen goes to Harvard for a culinary degree. The show couldn’t even get themselves to go with an actual culinary school like CIA because it isn’t Ivy League so then we can’t realize how special/gifted/unique said character is. 
 

  • Useful 1
  • LOL 2
  • Love 1
historylover820

historylover820

1 hour ago, OpalNightstream said:

My recent favorite is on This is Us where a teen goes to Harvard for a culinary degree. The show couldn’t even get themselves to go with an actual culinary school like CIA because it isn’t Ivy League so then we can’t realize how special/gifted/unique said character is. 
 

Wow. Just.... wow. That just shows that writers really don't understand.

I can't quite get my thoughts organized, but I'm wondering--

Sophie decided not to go to Harvard (which we laughed at because when did she show any interest in it in the first place?)

Now Tyrell isn't going to Harvard.

At least Sophie had a reason for not going. She wanted to go into music. There's no reason for Tyrell not to go, although, boy, do I not think he's qualified to go in the first place.

Could the writers and producers be saying that an Ivy League isn't for everyone? Especially in the wake of the college entrance scandals? However, if they are saying that but not having the characters go to a "lesser" school, the writers and producers are still showing that these characters are still "special/gifted/unique" (they were able to turn down Harvard, and you, audience member, were not able to even get in.)

I guess what I'm saying is that I just want to see a character on a TV show who is about ready to go to college be dreaming of going to a public state school.

  • Love 2
SunnyBeBe

SunnyBeBe

I think Tyrell was accepted to Yale.  If he doesn’t want to go, he shouldn’t. Let others who do want it take the spot.  My law school contracts professor attended Yale and he was brilliant.  My Endocrinologists attended Duke…they are brilliant.  My ophthalmologist attended Tulane and John Hopkins….outstanding.   So, I have a healthy appreciation for named schools.  

  • Love 1
bybrandy

bybrandy

I got into the school I was a legacy at without fully finishing my application.  I knew I didn't want to go there by the time I got the letter for more information and so I didn't send the more information and a few months later the accepted student letter came.  I could see Sophie getting into Harvard on her father's coattails.   

And Tyrell has a hell of an essay with his mom being deported during his high school career so he might get in I just wish they gave an indication what kind of student Tyrell was and what his interests were before he decided to apply to and then blow off Yale.

I went to an elite private school.   And they frequently reminded us that our constitutional rights ended when we walked through the door.   I wasn't a good fit.  I was fine academically but I was socially awkward and didn't have the kind of money most students had.  I was a slightly above average student and didn't work at it very hard.  

  • Love 2
circumvent

circumvent

Big, famous schools don't make the professional. I have seen a doctor - not for me, I was supporting a friend - who was from one of those schools, and everything was great until it wasn't and they completely messed up with the medication, without any consideration for the quality of life or the risks of some changes. Many years later, things are still not good. All because this doctor had a target in his mind that didn't take into consideration the fully possible consequences for the patient. All he wanted, was to have a "success" based on a number he decided was the ideal.

On the other end of it, the same friend had her life literally saved by a doctor that graduated from a not so high credentialed school.

I know a lawyer that went to a very selective private school in DC, the one presidents' children attend, and then Harvard, and they are closer to mediocre than to average, at least in the cases I know they worked on. On top of not being a very nice, empathetic person, elying on her diploma and initials after their name to pretend they are competent. 

I also know people who never went to college and do very vital work that most would not consider to be a success because it doesn't make them money. 

 

8 hours ago, bybrandy said:

I went to an elite private school.   And they frequently reminded us that our constitutional rights ended when we walked through the door.   I wasn't a good fit.  I was fine academically but I was socially awkward and didn't have the kind of money most students had.  I was a slightly above average student and didn't work at it very hard.  

Feeling like you are in the right place matters (or should) matter more than sticking at a place just because of the name the place carries.  Since most students in those schools get there not necessarily because they deserve, academically speaking, they will graduate to be mediocre professionals if they work in the area at all. It becomes a status issue, not a means to grow in a field. 

There are several actors, for example, that went to one of those schools and continue to be actors, sometimes bad actors, but choose the profession for the money they make. The way I see, if they wanted just to learn a trade, they could have chosen any school, but they chose the big name ones only for the ego, and because they can pay for it. Did they deserve to get in, or they were just a celebrity that would not be denied the spot? - yes, I am judging.

KaveDweller

KaveDweller

21 hours ago, bybrandy said:

I got into the school I was a legacy at without fully finishing my application.  I knew I didn't want to go there by the time I got the letter for more information and so I didn't send the more information and a few months later the accepted student letter came.  I could see Sophie getting into Harvard on her father's coattails.   

I don't think Sophie even applied to Harvard. She went on the weekend visit for prospective students and came back all, I shouldn't go college just because dad went there. Then she spent a whole season putting her effort into applying to that music school (that she decided not to go to either).

She probably would have gotten in though, because it is TV. 

  • Love 2
CrystalBlue

CrystalBlue

2 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

I don't think Sophie even applied to Harvard. She went on the weekend visit for prospective students and came back all, I shouldn't go college just because dad went there. Then she spent a whole season putting her effort into applying to that music school (that she decided not to go to either).

She probably would have gotten in though, because it is TV. 

And because Jon Dixon was an alumnus.  Tyrell got into Yale allegedly on his own merits (no legacy) but he's blowing that chance because his new girlfriend of two episodes is whispering in his ear.

  • Love 1
gonzosgirrl

gonzosgirrl

15 hours ago, CrystalBlue said:

And because Jon Dixon was an alumnus.  Tyrell got into Yale allegedly on his own merits (no legacy) but he's blowing that chance because his new girlfriend of two episodes is whispering in his ear.

I imagine it isn't just her lips next to his ear that is influencing his thinking.

I'm trying to imagine talking to my parents like any of the kids on this show do. I was never hit in my entire life, but jeez some of them need a kick in the ass.

  • LOL 1
  • Love 1
Katie111

Katie111

Why was Anna telling Sophie that they were going to the Cape but weren’t going to leave the room?  Ewwwwww!!!  First of all Sophie is 19.  Why would she ever want to hear that?  Secondly, her husband was Sophie’s abuser.  I’m sorry but I would be pretty pissed at Eddie for dating my abuser’s ex-wife.  Talk about a reminder.  Not to mention that he is your half-sister’s baby daddy.  (Because he had an affair with your mom at the same time your dad killed himself).   I think Anna is moving even quicker than Katherine and she has a lot more to sort out than Katherine does. 
 

I think Sophie needs some new friends.  Maybe ones she doesn’t meet through her parents or her abuser. 

  • Love 2

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
Go to topic listing
×
×
  • Create New...