S01.E04: Common Sense

[peachmangosteen]

Airs May 12th.

[AZChristian]

Just finished watching this episode.  The scene at the end (the prosecution's side of how Kathleen died) is EXACTLY what I've always thought happened.

[Ellaria]

57 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

Just finished watching this episode.  The scene at the end (the prosecution's side of how Kathleen died) is EXACTLY what I've always thought happened.

I thought that scene was effectively done and, IMO, seems to be what likely happened. They were drinking. They argued. (Not convinced that it was about the gay porn/escorts. It could have been about finances, Clayton's issues or it could have been all of it. What they argued about may not matter.) He goes into a rage and kills her with his bare hands.

I will be interested to learn more about Sophie the editor (Juliette Binoche) since I am familiar with her role in this story.

[AZChristian]

5 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I thought that scene was effectively done and, IMO, seems to be what likely happened. They were drinking. They argued. (Not convinced that it was about the gay porn/escorts. It could have been about finances . . . 

I think she may have seen the escort e-mails.  She was about to lose her job, they were heavily in debt (much of that due to paying for the kids' education - four of whom weren't even her kids), he didn't have a job and was living on his self-inflated ego (believing he would write another book), all the while spending HER money on escorts.  When she said, "I'm leaving," he realized he was about to lose the goose that was laying the golden eggs to support his lifestyle.  He may not have meant to kill her the first time he hit her, but he realized there was no way for him to weasel his way out of her dumping him if she was allowed to live.  She even said in the scene, "Don't try to Michael Peterson me."  She had his number!!!

[Ellaria]

1 minute ago, AZChristian said:

I think she may have seen the escort e-mails.  She was about to lose her job, they were heavily in debt (much of that due to paying for the kids' education - four of whom weren't even her kids), he didn't have a job and was living on his self-inflated ego (believing he would write another book), all the while spending HER money on escorts.  When she said, "I'm leaving," he realized he was about to lose the goose that was laying the golden eggs to support his lifestyle.  He may not have meant to kill her the first time he hit her, but he realized there was no way for him to weasel his way out of her dumping him if she was allowed to live.  She even said in the scene, "Don't try to Michael Peterson me."  She had his number!!!

All entirely possible. We will never know for certain what they argued about. Suffice to say that whatever the argument was about, it angered him enough to attack her violently.

I wonder how he has processed the events of that night. Assuming that he did kill her, does he tell himself that, because it wasn't premeditated/planned, that it was unintentional ("I didn't mean to kill her") and therefore "accidental?" FYI - I understand that what we saw in this reenactment was no accident; it was murder. I'm trying to make sense of what he tells himself.

[MrsR]

6 hours ago, AZChristian said:

Just finished watching this episode.  The scene at the end (the prosecution's side of how Kathleen died) is EXACTLY what I've always thought happened.

Heh, just last night I told my group that I thought he banged her head against the stairs. The stairwell was too tight to swing a weapon.

I'm a little creeped out that I shook my fist in glee when I watched it.

Toni rocked it.

[Kirsty]

I feel sorry for the kids, especially the German girls, especially Martha. Isn't it amazing that they can continue to stay by Peterson's side after finding out that he found their mother at the bottom of the stairs as well as their stepmother? Good for their stepsister,  Caitlin, who accepted that he's a killer even before the German woman's story emerged. But then she already has a father who isn't Peterson. The other two girls only have him, so they must badly want to deny the truth.

I also feel sorry for their stepbrother (Todd?). That poor kid is desperately trying to be the man his father wants him to be and to hold the family together. I take it he's gay but in the closet?

I probably would feel sorry for Clayton too, if not for the domestic violence. I even feel bad for Peterson's brother because he's being duped.

The show is doing a great job of including lots of small moments where Peterson is manipulative and selfish, where he enjoys attention, and where his kids seem to kind of adore him from a distance they can't cross.

Im not familiar with this story outside of the show, and I'm uncomfortable with the fact that it's based on a relatively recent real story. How is it good for all those people (his kids) to have to go over all this again twenty years later when everyone watches this on Netflix? I guess I'm not accustomed to watching 'true crime'.

I didn't expect Peterson to be found guilty because I didn't think the prosecution proved it.

I like seeing all the stuff from twenty years ago, like the ancient phones and flip phones, the boys wearing loose baggy jeans because skinny jeans hadn't come into fashion yet, and the CDs.

Both versions of Kathleen's death were horrifying and hard to watch.

The performances are excellent across the board.

Edited May 14, 2022 by Kirsty

[peachmangosteen]

1 hour ago, Kirsty said:

Im not familiar with this story outside of the show, and I'm uncomfortable with the fact that it's based on a relatively recent real story. How is it good for all those people (his kids) to have to go over all this again twenty years later when everyone watches this on Netflix? 

I keep thinking about that, too. I wonder if any of the real people have said anything about this show?

Quote

I didn't expect Peterson to be found guilty because I didn't think the prosecution proved it.

Same. The 'fire poker' theory they went with seemed like a reach. Plus, since we've seen scenes with him in more present day (2017, I think it said), I just assumed he got off. But then when they had the verdict in only the 4th ep I was like well something more must happen lol.

1 hour ago, Kirsty said:

Both versions of Kathleen's death were horrifying and hard to watch.

I started to watch the first one and it was too horrifying so I fast forwarded. I fast forwarded the one in this ep right away. From the posts here, it sounds like they showed him slamming her head. Since the earlier one showed what the defense was saying happened, I assumed maybe they'd show him hitting her with the poker to show what the prosecution was saying happened.

[AZChristian]

1 hour ago, peachmangosteen said:

I assumed maybe they'd show him hitting her with the poker to show what the prosecution was saying happened.

Your assumption is not correct.  But it was gruesome nonetheless.

[peachmangosteen]

Yea, I got that from the posts here. I think it would have made more sense to show that though since they showed the way the defense was saying it happened (her just accidentally slipping). 

[marybennet]

3 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

Yea, I got that from the posts here. I think it would have made more sense to show that though since they showed the way the defense was saying it happened (her just accidentally slipping). 

I think that, since the blow poke was found without bloodstains, that rules it out as a weapon.  They were presenting a plausible version of the prosecution case—that Michael Peterson killed Kathleen Peterson—as it stood at the end of the trial, without the blowpoke. 

[gooberfish]

Just speaking theoretically, could the blow poke not have been scrubbed totally clean by a perp? 

[marybennet]

My memory is that the documentary or something else I read said that the blowpoke (in life rather than on the show) was  dirty and cobwebby, so it didn’t seem to have been cleaned. 

Edited May 16, 2022 by marybennet

[peachmangosteen]

8 hours ago, marybennet said:

My memory is that the documentary or something else I read said that the blowpoke (in life rather than on the show) was  dirty and cobwebby, so it didn’t seem to have been cleaned. 

They did show it with cobwebs around it.

[Ellaria]

20 hours ago, marybennet said:

I think that, since the blow poke was found without bloodstains, that rules it out as a weapon.  They were presenting a plausible version of the prosecution case—that Michael Peterson killed Kathleen Peterson—as it stood at the end of the trial, without the blowpoke. 

9 hours ago, marybennet said:

My memory is that the documentary or something else I read said that the blowpoke (in life rather than on the show) was  dirty and cobwebby, so it didn’t seem to have been cleaned. 

The blowpoke that Clayton found in the garage was dirty with cobwebs and bugs. In other words, it had been sitting there for quite some time. I believe that testing was then done for evidence of bloodstains, etc and none were present. During the trial, the prosecution focused on it as the murder weapon and claimed that it was “missing.” Once the defense finds it in the garage, the so-called murder weapon is no longer missing.

 

 

[peachmangosteen]

52 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

During the trial, the prosecution focused on it as the murder weapon and claimed that it was “missing.” Once the defense finds it in the garage, the so-called murder weapon is no longer missing.

This is what confused me. The show didn't really explain where the prosecution went after the blowpoke was found. Did they just keep up with the theory that he used that or did they shift? Either way, it surprises me that he was found guilty.

[Ellaria]

14 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

This is what confused me. The show didn't really explain where they prosecution went after the blowpoke was found. Did they just keep up with the theory that he used that or did they shift? Either way, it surprises me that he was found guilty.

I’ve watched the documentary and I’m still confused and skeptical about aspects  of this case.

The prosecution backed off on their claim that the blowpoke was the definitive murder weapon. They claimed that “it could have been.”

FWIW, I think that he killed her, likely in a way presented in this episode. However, I do not believe that the prosecution presented their case beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[laurakaye]

 

On 5/12/2022 at 6:28 PM, AZChristian said:

I think she may have seen the escort e-mails.  She was about to lose her job, they were heavily in debt (much of that due to paying for the kids' education - four of whom weren't even her kids), he didn't have a job and was living on his self-inflated ego (believing he would write another book), all the while spending HER money on escorts.  When she said, "I'm leaving," he realized he was about to lose the goose that was laying the golden eggs to support his lifestyle.  He may not have meant to kill her the first time he hit her, but he realized there was no way for him to weasel his way out of her dumping him if she was allowed to live.  She even said in the scene, "Don't try to Michael Peterson me."  She had his number!!!

All of this, perfectly stated.  I thought it was brilliant the way Colin Firth as Peterson realizes how badly he's injured Kathleen, storms into the kitchen in a state of agitated confusion, and then slowly comes to the realization that he needs to finish what he started.  It was gruesome and raw and I could not take my eyes off of the tv during that entire scene.

Loved the bolded part - Peterson was such a jaw-dropping person to watch in the doc because his ego was simply too big for words, and again, props to Firth for making me remember why I got so angry watching the doc and listening to that guy pontificate whilst sucking on an unlit pipe and holding court over his wide-eyed children.

I also wanted to mention the character of Patty, who was in a class all by herself - I just don't know what class that is.  She was a piece of work as well.

Edited May 16, 2022 by laurakaye

[MollyB]

15 hours ago, gooberfish said:

Just speaking theoretically, could the blow poke not have been scrubbed totally clean by a perp? 

1 hour ago, Ellaria Sand said:

The blowpoke that Clayton found in the garage was dirty with cobwebs and bugs. In other words, it had been sitting there for quite some time.

 

The way that the blowpoke was found and by whom causes a chain of custody problem.  The documentary shows the defense attorney making a video of the poke in situ and showing all the cobwebs and bugs and dirt.  Then they remove it to place it in a plastic tube.  This does not prove how long it was there or whether it had been cleaned. Evidence of spiders and dirt do not tell the actual time it was there.  The prosecution could argue that the killer put it there after the premises were searched.

Bottom line, as soon as the blowpoke was discovered, the defense attorney should have called the DA and police to have them remove and test it.  If Peterson was innocent, this wouldn't have been a problem for the defense.

Spoiler

Also, wasn't this found after he was found guilty?  When he was in his appeal process?

 

[Ellaria]

28 minutes ago, MollyB said:

The way that the blowpoke was found and by whom causes a chain of custody problem.  The documentary shows the defense attorney making a video of the poke in situ and showing all the cobwebs and bugs and dirt.  Then they remove it to place it in a plastic tube.  This does not prove how long it was there or whether it had been cleaned. Evidence of spiders and dirt do not tell the actual time it was there.  The prosecution could argue that the killer put it there after the premises were searched.

Bottom line, as soon as the blowpoke was discovered, the defense attorney should have called the DA and police to have them remove and test it.  If Peterson was innocent, this wouldn't have been a problem for the defense.

 

Yes - it certainly causes a chain of custody issue. And yes, there was no discussion of how long it was there or how long it would take for the cobwebs, etc to develop. However, none of those issues were raised at trial.

Spoiler

According to the documentary, the blowpoke was discovered towards the end of the defense presentation during the actual trial. If I recall correctly, once the trial had concluded, it was learned that the police were aware early on that the blowpoke was in the Peterson's garage.

 

[poeticlicensed]

I think the blowpoke was a red herring. They were looking for a weapon and found an old blow poke so voila. I thought the scene where they showed them fightING abd he killed her on the stairs was the likely way the crime happened. I think Kathleen was under lots of pressure at work, they were both drunk and had a fight. Whether that fight was over his gay relationships or money, who knows. I think he grabbed her and threw her and she fought back. Im sure he has reasoned in his mind that he didn't intend to kill her so he's innocent, even if he did it. 

He brought 4 children into their marriage and she was supporting all of them. I cannot believe she let him sit on his rear all day and write. I know he was published and he said he had gotten a 10k advance but looking at that house and having multiple adult children in private colleges 10k is just a drop in the bucket. Thats why I always wondered if the fight was about money rather than him stepping out on her. 

[MagicEyes]

1 hour ago, poeticlicensed said:

I think the blowpoke was a red herring. They were looking for a weapon and found an old blow poke so voila. I thought the scene where they showed them fightING abd he killed her on the stairs was the likely way the crime happened. I think Kathleen was under lots of pressure at work, they were both drunk and had a fight. Whether that fight was over his gay relationships or money, who knows. I think he grabbed her and threw her and she fought back. Im sure he has reasoned in his mind that he didn't intend to kill her so he's innocent, even if he did it. 

He brought 4 children into their marriage and she was supporting all of them. I cannot believe she let him sit on his rear all day and write. I know he was published and he said he had gotten a 10k advance but looking at that house and having multiple adult children in private colleges 10k is just a drop in the bucket. Thats why I always wondered if the fight was about money rather than him stepping out on her. 

My theory is she found out he was cheating on her and she told him she wanted a divorce. He snapped, because his gravy train was going away and he wouldn’t be able to live the cushy life with the mansion and the pool.

I think it’s interesting that the children are so devoted to him. Why did they stay with him? Because honestly, if I were his child, he is not the parent I would want to stay with after the divorce. 

[MollyB]

3 hours ago, poeticlicensed said:

I think the blowpoke was a red herring. They were looking for a weapon and found an old blow poke so voila.

I would like to see the transcripts from the trial.  The movies, documentary and 20/20 don't give me enough of the evidence the prosecution actually presented.  I can't believe the DA didn't consider other causes of trauma.  For instance, the baseboard molding and the stair treads may have caused the skull injuries and the indication of strangulation points to someone trying to murder her.  I think it not too smart to drive your whole case on a weapon that you can't produce.  So I can't believe the jury found him guilty on just that.  (I also believe the second scene of her death (when her head is being banged into the stairs/wall by Peterson) is probably how it happened.)

  

[Ellaria]

7 hours ago, MollyB said:

I would like to see the transcripts from the trial.  The movies, documentary and 20/20 don't give me enough of the evidence the prosecution actually presented.  I can't believe the DA didn't consider other causes of trauma.  For instance, the baseboard molding and the stair treads may have caused the skull injuries and the indication of strangulation points to someone trying to murder her.  I think it not too smart to drive your whole case on a weapon that you can't produce.  So I can't believe the jury found him guilty on just that.  (I also believe the second scene of her death (when her head is being banged into the stairs/wall by Peterson) is probably how it happened.)

 

You can watch the full trial here: https://www.courttv.com/trials/nc-v-peterson-2003/ . I have not watched it but perhaps that will help answer your questions - all good ones - about the blow poke.

There are a lot of curious things about the prosecution's case. The blow poke is only one of them. While it may not have been "too smart" to include it, they did and they got their conviction. I'm amazed that the jury was not able to find reasonable doubt considering that the prosecution could not prove either a motive or murder weapon. 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Ellaria Sand

[MollyB]

23 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

I'm amazed that the jury was not able to find reasonable doubt considering that the prosecution could not prove either a motive or murder weapon. 

Thanks for the link.  I forgot all about CourtTV.

I think he was convicted on the suggestion of motive and weapon.  The jury was bombarded with the bisexual angle (which I'm pretty sure is a big no-no in Durham) and the victim being the bank for him and his kids.  He did not look like an upstanding, loving husband.  It's easy to play out in the jury's mind that the couple had argued about him needing more money for his boys.  He tries to 'celebrate' with his book/movie deal but as someone mentioned upthread, 10,000$ is a drop in the bucket.  She probably wasn't impressed much.  Then she finds the emails and pics on the computer and goes ballistic.  They fight, he tries to shut her up.  Whether he use a blowpoke or banged her head against the stairs is moot to the jury. He was a bad man so no reasonable doubt that he did it.

[rlc]

1 hour ago, MollyB said:

Thanks for the link.  I forgot all about CourtTV.

I think he was convicted on the suggestion of motive and weapon.  The jury was bombarded with the bisexual angle (which I'm pretty sure is a big no-no in Durham) and the victim being the bank for him and his kids.  He did not look like an upstanding, loving husband.  It's easy to play out in the jury's mind that the couple had argued about him needing more money for his boys.  He tries to 'celebrate' with his book/movie deal but as someone mentioned upthread, 10,000$ is a drop in the bucket.  She probably wasn't impressed much.  Then she finds the emails and pics on the computer and goes ballistic.  They fight, he tries to shut her up.  Whether he use a blowpoke or banged her head against the stairs is moot to the jury. He was a bad man so no reasonable doubt that he did it.

Agreed. Durham is in the liberal part of North Carolina, but it is still North Carolina. I've followed this case for years and while I do believe Peterson is guilty, the state did not prove his guilt. He was convicted as soon as lascivious pictures of men were introduced to the jury.

[MrsR]

Ok, so I live in Durham.

I moved here from the Northeast in 2004 just after he was convicted and the story had died down. It wasn't until the documentary that I became acquainted with the story. The Duke Lacrosse case had happened and eclipsed the Peterson case. I then realized I had encountered Michael, Patty and Todd.

Just some clarifications. The girls aren't German. Their parents were American military stationed in Germany.

The blow poke was found in the garage during the trial in 2003. It could have been planted one to two months before it was found and still be covered in dust and cobwebs as the garage is an old separate building and not an attached modern garage. I don't believe it was the murder weapon but I do believe it was planted.

 

[Sweet-tea]

On 5/12/2022 at 10:43 PM, MrsR said:

Heh, just last night I told my group that I thought he banged her head against the stairs. The stairwell was too tight to swing a weapon.

I'm a little creeped out that I shook my fist in glee when I watched it.

Toni rocked it.

Gosh that scene was brutal and very hard to watch. 

Colin Firth is so good in this! I don’t even recognize him!

He kept saying she was drunk, but he was also impaired. I think he got angry and killed her. It happened in moments just as it was shown. He lost control. He probably regretted it after, although him standing there watching while she was gasping for air was horrifying. 

I wish I hadn’t watched the last scene. I’m afraid I’ll have nightmares. My sister died in front of me in 2009, and her behavior at the end was similar to Kathleen’s. She didn’t fall. She had an aneurysm near her heart that ruptured. The doctors had been watching it for a few years, saying it wasn’t operable.

 It was awful watching my sister gasping for breath and not to be able to do anything. My mother was screaming. It was the day after Thanksgiving. I was there visiting for the holidays. We called 911 but by the time they arrived, it was too late. She was 51. 

Edited May 22, 2022 by Sweet-tea

[WendyCR72]

@Sweet-tea, I am so sorry for your loss. That sounds so heartbreaking.

[Johnny Dollar]

With Kathleen not suffering any skull fractures, I don’t understand why the prosecution went with an angle that would require there to be a murder weapon. There manner that they presented her death at the end of this episode seems to be the most plausible explanation, particularly since her hyoid bone was crushed. 

[peachmangosteen]

11 hours ago, Johnny Dollar said:

With Kathleen not suffering any skull fractures, I don’t understand why the prosecution went with an angle that would require there to be a murder weapon. 

Right! Their case seemed horrible. I guess the defense was just as bad though.

[MollyB]

On 5/24/2022 at 7:03 PM, Johnny Dollar said:

since her hyoid bone was crushed.

They showed her with a neck brace after her drunken jump into the pool.  Maybe the prosecution wasn't able to confirm with the pathologist as to when the hyoid was damaged.

[peachmangosteen]

4 hours ago, MollyB said:

They showed her with a neck brace after her drunken jump into the pool.  Maybe the prosecution wasn't able to confirm with the pathologist as to when the hyoid was damaged.

I kept waiting for someone to wonder if that was when her hyoid bone was broken. Why in the world would Michael or any of the kids not bring that up to his lawyer? Unless maybe it was brought up but her doctor said it wasn't or something. If so though, you'd think they'd have included that in the show since they made such a point to show her jumping in the pool and then in the neck brace.

[Anela]

Oh my god, that was horrifying. I never got past the first episode of the documentary, whichever one was available in 2014, because the episode gave me one of the worst nightmares I've ever had. This one probably will, too. 

[Anela]

On 5/22/2022 at 6:35 PM, Sweet-tea said:

Gosh that scene was brutal and very hard to watch. 

Colin Firth is so good in this! I don’t even recognize him!

He kept saying she was drunk, but he was also impaired. I think he got angry and killed her. It happened in moments just as it was shown. He lost control. He probably regretted it after, although him standing there watching while she was gasping for air was horrifying. 

I wish I hadn’t watched the last scene. I’m afraid I’ll have nightmares. My sister died in front of me in 2009, and her behavior at the end was similar to Kathleen’s. She didn’t fall. She had an aneurysm near her heart that ruptured. The doctors had been watching it for a few years, saying it wasn’t operable.

 It was awful watching my sister gasping for breath and not to be able to do anything. My mother was screaming. It was the day after Thanksgiving. I was there visiting for the holidays. We called 911 but by the time they arrived, it was too late. She was 51. 

I'm so sorry. My mother died from an aortic aneurysm in the hospital, six years ago, :(