S07.E11: The Horrible Family

[OtterMommy]

Quote

Frankie decides to celebrate every annual holiday and special occasion in rapid succession. Grace finds a shocking connection to a rising politician.

 

[txhorns79]

I was very confused about the Hanson family's ages in this episode.  Grace and Robert are in their 80s.  They made it sound like Brianna and Mallory were in grade school in the mid 1990s, which would mean that Grace and Robert didn't have kids until when?  Their very late 40s or early 50s?  That does not seem likely for them.  I could swear that other episodes have suggested Brianna and Mallory are much older.     

[AuntieMame]

You’re right. The ages of the girls and actresses really don’t work compared to Grace and Frankie’s ages. All of the kids are kind of portrayed in the second half of their thirties which should make their parents in their sixties. Parents in their eighties doesn’t work. Plus the kids haven’t changed at all in terms of age or development, very static characters. 

[Suzn]

15 hours ago, AuntieMame said:

You’re right. The ages of the girls and actresses really don’t work compared to Grace and Frankie’s ages. All of the kids are kind of portrayed in the second half of their thirties which should make their parents in their sixties. Parents in their eighties doesn’t work. Plus the kids haven’t changed at all in terms of age or development, very static characters. 

If you go by the actual ages of the actors, the ages are biologically possible but just about more likely to Grace and Frankie are grandparents than parents of the kids.

[CarpeFelis]

I had older parents - they were just about to turn 39 and 44 when I was born. So it’s possible to have a child who’s around 40 with parents in the neighborhood of 80.

[shapeshifter]

24 minutes ago, CarpeFelis said:

I had older parents - they were just about to turn 39 and 44 when I was born. So it’s possible to have a child who’s around 40 with parents in the neighborhood of 80.

Especially since Grace had a career. My former boss had her kids at 39 and 42.
Since Frankie and Sol adopted, it makes a bit more sense that their kids arrived later in their lives.

[txhorns79]

1 hour ago, CarpeFelis said:

I had older parents - they were just about to turn 39 and 44 when I was born. So it’s possible to have a child who’s around 40 with parents in the neighborhood of 80.

I think Robert and Grace would have been closer to 50 when their last kid was born, at least as suggested by the episode.  It's certainly possible, but neither of them strikes me as people who would wait that late to have kids.  I don't know that I have anything to base this on, but I always thought Grace started her business when the kids were older, not that she had her business and decided a decade or two into it to have kids.   

[Bastet]

Yeah the "it was the '90s" remark didn't work for what they've vaguely established about when Grace and Robert got married and had the kids, but since practically every one of the few times they mention a specific year or age it doesn't make any sense, I just try to tune them out.  I got a lot of practice with The Golden Girls.

I love "At least we're not the worst" on the family crest.  And them lamenting they just engaged in all that self reflection for nothing.  Robert's "I got almost introspective there for a minute" made me laugh.  But I also loved the self reflection while it lasted, especially Mallory telling them the whole "loveless" part of a loveless marriage was hard to miss.

My biggest laugh came from Allison, which isn't common, but her "Bud, I need your help yelling at you in another room" way of getting him away from the table hit just the right spot.  There isn't a "Can I see you in the other room for a moment?" scenario in the world that isn't obvious to the people you're trying to surreptitiously get away from, so I love that she just says it.

Lily Tomlin did a great job with Frankie's reaction to Coyote saying it's one thing for his future in-laws to doubt him, but for his parents to feel the same way is another.  Oftentimes Frankie is so in her own little World of Frankie she doesn't fully register what she's done, but she got it then.  And it's natural for them to worry -- there's an established pattern, he does this.  Yet just as natural for him to be upset -- how long do I have to go without Coyoteing something for you to believe I'm not going to do that anymore?

It was great seeing Stephen Tobolowsky and Mimi Kennedy as Jessica's parents; I always enjoy both actors.

Edited May 2, 2022 by Bastet

[sistermagpie]

13 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I think Robert and Grace would have been closer to 50 when their last kid was born, at least as suggested by the episode.  It's certainly possible, but neither of them strikes me as people who would wait that late to have kids.  I don't know that I have anything to base this on, but I always thought Grace started her business when the kids were older, not that she had her business and decided a decade or two into it to have kids.   

Agreed. The idea that these boomers would all decide to put off having kids until their 40s is unlikely at best. With Sol and Frankie you could maybe think they tried biologically and didn't happen and then they decided to adopt, but obviously the show just wanted them to have kids that were all the same age and also for some reason didn't want them to be as old as, say, Emilio Esteves and Charlie Sheen. 

Given everything we know of Grace, it makes little sense that she'd have had her kids late. She started out being a traditional housewife and then, it seems to me, because an 80s businesswoman, like Jane Fonda.

[shapeshifter]

29 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

The idea that these boomers would all decide to put off having kids until their 40s is unlikely at best.

Just to clarify, if Frankie and Grace and Sol and Robert were Boomers, the ages of their kids wouldn't be a problem. But people in their 80s were born in 1942 or earlier, and WWII ended in 1945, which precipitated the "Baby Boom," to which "Boomer" refers. 
The moniker for the generation before the Boomers is "The Greatest Generation," but it doesn't get used much. 

Regardless, there have always been some older parents and some really young ones too. I just became a grandparent for the first time. Most of the parents my age whose kids grew up with mine became grandparents 25 years ago.

But @Bastet says it better:

1 hour ago, Bastet said:

Yeah the "it was the '90s" remark didn't work for what they've vaguely established about when Grace and Robert got married and had the kids, but since practically every one of the few times they mention a specific year or age it doesn't make any sense, I just try to tune them out.  I got a lot of practice with The Golden Girls.

 

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Just to clarify, if Frankie and Grace and Sol and Robert were Boomers, the ages of their kids wouldn't be a problem. But people in their 80s were born in 1942 or earlier, and WWII ended in 1945, which precipitated the "Baby Boom," to which "Boomer" refers. 
The moniker for the generation before the Boomers is "The Greatest Generation," but it doesn't get used much. 

Sorry, yes, you're right. I was associating them with the 60s because of Frankie's hippie-ness. Though would they be members of the Silent Generation? That's between Greatest and Boomer. They get forgotten because it's a smaller cohort, like GenX. 

That said, yes, there have always been older parents--mine were as well. But given what we know of Grace and Robert the fact that they had kids that late seems very unlikely. Even the opening credits have them get married, have kids and then do their other stuff. Grace probably wouldn't have had kids at all if she'd been able to put it off for that long.

[AuntieMame]

17 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I think Robert and Grace would have been closer to 50 when their last kid was born, at least as suggested by the episode.  It's certainly possible, but neither of them strikes me as people who would wait that late to have kids.  I don't know that I have anything to base this on, but I always thought Grace started her business when the kids were older, not that she had her business and decided a decade or two into it to have kids.   

It’s not impossible but it’s pretty rare. Yes people get surprised with change of life babies but even that is more common in the 45 to 48 range and it’s rare enough that it causes comment. 

I’m happy to watch Jane and Lily but the fact that the kids should have been older was a bit jarring in places. I didn’t feel like either Brianna or Mallory was written like they were forty. Nor Bud and Coyote either. And infant adoption does have an upper age limit for the adopters generally. 

Its a comedy and its nice to see Jane and Lily but this was a weakness in the writing. 
 

 

Edited May 2, 2022 by AuntieMame

[AuntieMame]

34 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Sorry, yes, you're right. I was associating them with the 60s because of Frankie's hippie-ness. Though would they be members of the Silent Generation? That's between Greatest and Boomer. They get forgotten because it's a smaller cohort, like GenX. 

That said, yes, there have always been older parents--mine were as well. But given what we know of Grace and Robert the fact that they had kids that late seems very unlikely. Even the opening credits have them get married, have kids and then do their other stuff. Grace probably wouldn't have had kids at all if she'd been able to put it off for that long.

So glad to see another Generations/Strauss and Howe fan here. The actresses are definitely Silent generation and I thought the characters were supposed to be pretty close to the age of the actresses. The kids seemed to be at best very late GenX or early Millennials. I don’t know anyone late sixties to early eighties in birthdates that has Silent Generation parents. And no millennials. 
Id be willing to completely ignore it except that this lines right up with the elephant in the room of not addressing death and decay and ultimately pretending that Grace and Frankie would live forever. 
The show has been running for seven years, shouldn’t all of the characters have gotten older? 

[AuntieMame]

Thank you for that @TakomaSnark. That helps. Those ages make more sense for the writing and characters, but all of the actors seemed their actual ages and that made the viewer sense the big age spread instinctively. But if the guys are supposed to be 72 and we’re in their sixties when they show started that makes a lot more sense. Thanks for tracking that down. 

[greekmom]

Didn't know where to post this but...

Did Mallory even mention her kids this season? Or did they just "go away" to be never heard of again?

I mean she was such a helicopter mom in the first seasons and I understand that the kids are older now and she has a bit more free time to get a part time or full time job (especially when sharing custody with her ex but I thought he was doing doctors without boarders or something) but there is no mention of the kids this season at all. It looks they went the same way as Robert's sister and Frankie's sister. 

And to that effect, where was Bud and Allison's child when they were going to the lunch/brunch for the engagement meal to meet Coyote's fiancé's family?

 

[shapeshifter]

21 minutes ago, greekmom said:

Didn't know where to post this but...

Did Mallory even mention her kids this season? Or did they just "go away" to be never heard of again?

I mean she was such a helicopter mom in the first seasons and I understand that the kids are older now and she has a bit more free time to get a part time or full time job (especially when sharing custody with her ex but I thought he was doing doctors without boarders or something) but there is no mention of the kids this season at all. It looks they went the same way as Robert's sister and Frankie's sister. 

And to that effect, where was Bud and Allison's child when they were going to the lunch/brunch for the engagement meal to meet Coyote's fiancé's family?

 

Not sure what's in which episode, so I'm replying here with spoiler tags.

Spoiler

The lack of kids on screen was presumably due to Covid.
There were several times Mallory mentioned her kids --I think every time she had  an extended scene?
But I can only recall one mention of Bud and Allison having a baby/toddler once, which felt weird.

Maybe bring this up in the last episode's thread? 

 

[Bastet]

6 hours ago, greekmom said:

And to that effect, where was Bud and Allison's child when they were going to the lunch/brunch for the engagement meal to meet Coyote's fiancé's family?

Presumably they got a sitter.  If she was there, she'd have been Frankie and Sol's focus, and the lunch was for Jessica's parents.

[TakomaSnark]

On 5/2/2022 at 6:00 PM, AuntieMame said:

So glad to see another Generations/Strauss and Howe fan here. The actresses are definitely Silent generation and I thought the characters were supposed to be pretty close to the age of the actresses. The kids seemed to be at best very late GenX or early Millennials. I don’t know anyone late sixties to early eighties in birthdates that has Silent Generation parents. And no millennials. 
Id be willing to completely ignore it except that this lines right up with the elephant in the room of not addressing death and decay and ultimately pretending that Grace and Frankie would live forever. 
The show has been running for seven years, shouldn’t all of the characters have gotten older? 

I got curious, as I thought the leads were playing slightly younger than their actual ages. This is per the Grace & Frankie Wiki:

Quote

Grace Pauline Hanson, née Purcell (November 9th, 1939). When Grace turned 26 she started saying she was 22 because people kept questioning why she wasn't married yet. A few years later Grace married Robert Hanson, a lawyer. 

So let's say Grace got married at thirty, which would have been 1969 (ignoring her lying about her age at that point).

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 She and Robert had two daughters: Brianna Hanson (1978) and Mallory Hanson (1980).

So 39 when Brianna was born, 41 for Mallory and at the time the series began (2015) Grace was 76.

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Frances "Frankie" Bergstein (née Mengela). In 'The Elevator,' her birthday is stated as October 12, 1954. 

Frankie is supposed to be significantly younger than Grace, which I never caught.

Quote

Frankie regretted not being able to get pregnant but she and her husband adopted and raised two sons: Nwabudike "Bud" Douglas Bergstein (1984) and Coyote Bergstein (1982).

So, Frankie adopted the kids 28 and 30, and they're both younger than Brianna and Mallory, though not by much. 

Lastly, less detail in their bios but this Wiki says Robert was born in 1948 (making him 74 in 2022) and Sol in 1950 (72 in 2022).

Gotta say, I'm kind of shocked that three of the four leads were supposed to have been significantly younger than I thought they were for most of this show. Jane is the one closest in age to who she played. Assuming this Wiki is accurate.

[Bastet]

In season one Grace and Frankie are both stated to be 70.  Grace and Robert are said to have been married 40 years, and I believe the same is true of Frankie and Sol.  In the episode where Brianna and Frankie get stoned and go for frozen yogurt, Frankie tells Brianna when she was her age, she had two little kids (and a station wagon, in which little Brianna threw up).

In the season three opener, when they apply for the loan for Vybrant, they are both stated as 73. 

But then Grace turns 80 in season five (she says she's turning 76, but she's really turning 80).  And at some point Frankie is aged up as well. 

Like I said, I try to ignore specific references to ages or years, because they tend to contradict each other.  They made the kids younger than would make sense from the beginning, and had the core four actors playing younger, maybe to match up with that better.  Then they started creeping towards bringing the characters' ages closer to the actors', but when they'd be referenced as, say, three years older than the last time we'd heard a specific age, how events had connected to each other added up to maybe one year's time passing between those two references.  So, yeah, I go for an in one ear, out the other thing.

[shapeshifter]

I can't remember if I noticed the age discrepancies before reading about them here on the threads after I had already watched, or if I gave it a thought while watching. 
But I grew up with 2 Darrens in Bewitched, so I probably ignored it.

[Bastet]

I noticed they were playing younger in the beginning, because that always bugs me -- Hollywood can't take credit for casting 80-year-olds if they only do so when they can "pass" for young-looking 70-year-olds (e.g. Brianna telling Grace to put her age as 64, not 70, on her online dating profile since that's how old she looks), and the lives of 80-year-olds are just as deserving to be explored as 70-year-olds, in all their decade-specific nuance, rather than acting as if everything from 55-100 is the same.

I also noticed right away everyone being at/around 70 years old when the series opened and both couples having been married for 40 years at the time meaning both couples got married at/around 30 was unusual for the era, especially for the women (my mom, about five years older than the actors, was an outlier in her day for not getting married until she was the ripe old age of 26).

That brings attention to the kids' ages.  There were only a few specific references to the characters' ages - Coyote being an X-year-old man so underdeveloped, Bud's leap year birthdays - but going by the actors' ages, for example, Brooklyn is 50 years younger than Jane.  Brooklyn is an outlier, though, ten years younger than the other actors playing the kids, the rest of whom are all around 35 when the show began.  So let's age up Brooklyn and put all the second generation characters in the 33-37 range as the series opens in 2015:

We have the four parents said to be at/around 70, meaning they were all born around 1945 (five+ years after the actors were born).  Based on norms of the time, such folks would have likely gotten married in the late sixties, having kids in the early seventies, so the kids would be in their early forties in 2015.  Yet, with the married for 40 years thing, they established these particular 70-year-olds as not having married until age 30, so that means they didn't get married until around 1975.  That makes the kids all likely born within a year or two either way of 1980 (assuming a couple of years between the oldest and youngest of each pair), so all are within a few years before and after age 35 when we meet them.  

Okay, the second generation characters' ages now work in relation to the parent characters, it's just that both couples married later than was typical.  But things don't add up when the show mentions specifics, like when the whole Phil thing happened (if that was fifteen years ago from season two, then having the girls wasn't the issue Grace said it was, as they'd have been out of the house).

And then when the core four age up to closer to the actors' ages even though not that many years have passed in plot time, the kids really seem too young.

If you try to make sense of any of this while watching, it's too distracting.  So every time they referenced an age or year I cringed, deliberately filed it in a dusty corner of my mind, and refocused.

[AuntieMame]

Except that the inconsistencies in the actor’s and character’s ages and the ages of the characters in relation to each other in fact highlights the very ageism that the show loudly proclaimed they were successfully fighting. 

I first noticed this in the arc where it was seen as ridiculous that Grace and Frankie would be anywhere near a nursing home. Really? Or that everyone was blessedly free of any but the most treatable health problems and quickly recovered from any nod to the reality of aging. Roberts heart attack was neutralized by the fun of a hospital bed wedding. 

At the end of the day Grace and Frankie showed us that we can only write for people in their seventies if they act like they’re in their fifties. No ageism to see here. 

[Gabs66]

If Frankie was born in 1954 she would be 5 years( and one day🙂  ) younger than me. No way am I ready for  nursing home. But her hippieness falls into line.

[zoey1996]

In real life, Lily Tomlin is about two years younger than Fonda, and that fits better with her character here. 
With the line, it was the nineties, it just doesn’t track for me. So I’ll handwave and just go with it.

[Roccos Brother]

This was basically a filler episode. Grace and Frankie has always been a very episodic sitcom-like structured show but I really wish they didn't use the final season to give us so many of these largely inconsequential (and frankly, boring) plots that go nowhere and take less than half an episode to reach an almost too-easy resolution. They literally didn't have to do anything in this case.

Edited June 28, 2022 by Roccos Brother

[ahisma]

On 6/27/2022 at 7:28 PM, Roccos Brother said:

I really wish they didn't use the final season to give us so many of these largely inconsequential (and frankly, boring) plots that go nowhere and take less than half an episode to reach an almost too-easy resolution. They literally didn't have to do anything in this case.

The plotlines in this ep were more about the journey than the destination—not as “in you face” as a run across the border. I really like that they are doing a lot of in-depth stories working on emotional resolution this season, as it’s the last season: Brianna leaving the company to find something for herself, Bud deciding whether divorce law is right for him, Grace facing her fear of losing loved ones, Robert and Sol facing Robert’s memory issues, even Frankie resolving things with Jack. And… 

On 5/2/2022 at 9:11 AM, Bastet said:

Yet just as natural for him to be upset -- how long do I have to go without Coyoteing something for you to believe I'm not going to do that anymore?

What a gut punch the end of this episode was. Coyote has had the most growth as a person out of anyone on the show and it’s been years since he turned his life around and started working on himself. Yes, he should have told his fiancée where the honeymoon money came from, but for Frankie to invalidate him in front of everyone that way was awful.