S06.E03: Rock and Hard Place

[Tabbygirl521]

On 4/25/2022 at 7:23 PM, UGAmp said:

I think that’s the saddest I’ve ever said the word “Nacho” in my entire life. 

I hope this show wins all the Emmys for its final season. 

I screamed, and I never scream. 

[Melonie77]

5 hours ago, MBayGal said:

I have rewatched it.  What does it matter whether Mike meant "kill yourself" or "kill Bolsa"?  Nacho made the choice he made based on what he thought/felt in that moment.

Also, " long-distance encouragement" is an odd way to phrase it, since there is no way Nacho could hear it.

 

Sigh. It mattered to me and I'm entitled to my opinion.

Then why did the script call for Mike to speak to Nacho?
He was encouraging him from a distance despite the fact that he could not hear him. 
There is nothing odd about my "phrasing".
What is odd is the number of people here who have criticized my opinions in this episode thread. Perhaps I should have chosen a gender-neutral or male-type name for this forum.

[Adiba]

7 hours ago, Melonie77 said:

 

Sigh. It mattered to me and I'm entitled to my opinion.

Then why did the script call for Mike to speak to Nacho?
He was encouraging him from a distance despite the fact that he could not hear him. 
There is nothing odd about my "phrasing".
What is odd is the number of people here who have criticized my opinions in this episode thread. Perhaps I should have chosen a gender-neutral or male-type name for this forum.

I, too, have wondered what Mike meant by "Do it" and enjoy reading everyone's take on it here--including yours. That's part of the fun here.

I'm still not sure what my final opinion is because so many different posts are very convincing.

[PeterPirate]

8 hours ago, Melonie77 said:

Sigh. It mattered to me and I'm entitled to my opinion.
 

It mattered to a lot of people, especially those who spun up all sorts of alternate theories and reasons why the Occam's Razor explanation couldn't be true.  

[peeayebee]

I'm still not settled on what Mike meant when he said, "Do it." Obviously we here can't reach a final, definite answer.

As I posted earlier, I'm not even convinced his comment was directed at Nacho. When Nacho took Bolsa's gun, everyone else drew their guns. It's possible that Mike was, in a way, daring the Cousins to fire so he could kill them. This is my top explanation.

I don't really see why Mike would say that meaning for Nacho to kill Bolsa.

[PeterPirate]

22 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

I don't really see why Mike would say that meaning for Nacho to kill Bolsa.

If Nacho shoots Bolsa, Bolsa drops to the ground.  Nacho, exposed, is taken out by Victor, Tyrus, and the Twins.  

Mind you, I had to get up, make myself some coffee, and ruminate on the question for a bit.  Like Jules Winnfield in the diner.   

Edited May 3, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Ed-]

8 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

I don't really see why Mike would say that meaning for Nacho to kill Bolsa.

I have updated my thoughts:
1. Nacho shoots Bolsa. (When Nacho actually shoots himself, I cannot interpret Mike's subsequent reaction as anything but severe disappointment.)
2. Note how both the Gus' men and the cousins are aiming at Nacho and Bolsa. It is fair to say cousins (and/or Gus' men) shoot Nacho, and Mike does not (as not to reveal himself and escalate things immediately). Nacho's prospects are slim but he still has a non-zero chance of survival.
3. It is possible that the situation escalates and Gus' men and the cousins aim at each other next.
4. Mike likely waits for someone to shoot next. If this happens, Mike likely takes his first shot(s) at the cousins
5. If cousins and down, and both Gus and Hector are alive, Gus probably finishes off Hector himself, maybe in a gruesome manner
6. If everyone and the Gus' men are seriously wounded, it is possible that Mike (and Nacho, if he is still somehow alive) make it look like Gus has also died in a firefight (they need to maybe attempt to extract him). 
7. In any scenario, it is possible Mike actively protects Nacho's dad, even going against loyalty to Gus (based on Mike's personal history). Maybe from Lalo (?), this can still happen this season.

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, peeayebee said:

I'm still not settled on what Mike meant when he said, "Do it." Obviously we here can't reach a final, definite answer.

As I posted earlier, I'm not even convinced his comment was directed at Nacho. When Nacho took Bolsa's gun, everyone else drew their guns. It's possible that Mike was, in a way, daring the Cousins to fire so he could kill them. This is my top explanation.

I don't really see why Mike would say that meaning for Nacho to kill Bolsa.

As I said earlier, I’ve watched the scene several times now and I’m also still torn. Maybe the writers meant for it to be ambiguous. Even Michael Mando said he wasn’t sure about its meaning.

1 hour ago, PeterPirate said:

If Nacho shoots Bolsa, Bolsa drops to the ground.  Nacho, exposed, is taken out by Victor, Tyrus, and the Twins.  

Mind you, I had to get up, make myself some coffee, and ruminate on the question for a bit.  Like Jules Winnfield in the diner.   

Yes, as Mike would say, there would be too many unknowns if he took a shot at anyone. 

[wendyg]

On 4/26/2022 at 9:43 PM, Cinnabon said:

Do you remember any of the rabid, abject seething contempt for Skylar (and sometimes Marie)? I had assumed that misogynistic incels represented only a miniscule number of men in our society, but the rage and hatred they expressed was incredibly disturbing. I think Anna Gunn actually wrote an article about it.

She did, for the New York Times. It's here: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/24/opinion/i-have-a-character-issue.html

It's interesting how many of the worst male BB/BCS characters are made more human by giving them vulnerable people to love. In Walt's case, his 40yo pregnant wife, disabled son, and new baby daughter; in Mike's his granddaughter; Jessie shows enormous liking and compassion for the children he encounters; in Nacho's case, his father; even Jimmy spends time genuinely caring for Chuck. Kim doesn't have that element of softening; she does love Jimmy but we don't see him as vulnerable.

 

[PeterPirate]

7 hours ago, wendyg said:

Kim doesn't have that element of softening; she does love Jimmy but we don't see him as vulnerable.

That's an excellent point.  Her characterization would be a lot different if she had a history of pro bono work, or another form of human connection, before she got mixed up with Jimmy.  

I look at Skylar the same way I look at Stacey, as a decent person who got caught up in the game through no fault of her own and did her best to manage a difficult situation. 

I'm not saying Kim is not a decent person, but she is different because she chose to be in the game.  She even married Jimmy so she couldn't be forced to testify against him.  Ugh.  

Edited May 13, 2022 by PeterPirate

[gallimaufry]

On 5/12/2022 at 6:55 PM, wendyg said:

She did, for the New York Times. It's here: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/24/opinion/i-have-a-character-issue.html

It's interesting how many of the worst male BB/BCS characters are made more human by giving them vulnerable people to love. In Walt's case, his 40yo pregnant wife, disabled son, and new baby daughter; in Mike's his granddaughter; Jessie shows enormous liking and compassion for the children he encounters; in Nacho's case, his father; even Jimmy spends time genuinely caring for Chuck. Kim doesn't have that element of softening; she does love Jimmy but we don't see him as vulnerable.

 

I don't know, I think there are moments where Jimmy is portrayed as vulnerable and defended by Kim both literally (in court in 305 and nearly 303) and also against Chuck in 209 and Lalo in 509.  I also think Kim's clients serve the same purpose you mention.

I also think Kim is different because she really was cast as heroic (notably in S2 with the "My way" scenes) in a way that Walt never was.  Walt was always a pretty vile character and the only ways he was made sympathetic were external circumstances.  As great as "Breaking Bad" is, I think you can see Vince Gilligan learning a lot on the job in the first two seasons and I think the show has some deep flaws emanating from this point.  One is that if the show is "Mr Chips to Scarface", I'd argue we never actually get "Mr Chips".  Walt is always almost unremittingly unpleasant -- it's just that we're primed to be sympathetic for reasons of context.  In episode 1, Walt Jr being bullied is framed as an opportunity for Walt to show his rage rather than for Walt to show he can be a good person; he turns down the Hail Mary offer from Grey Matter in episode 4 to cook meth even though the briefest brush with it turned him into a killer; and in episode 8, there's the IMO misjudged rape scene.  I can't actually think of a single scene where Walt shows any unselfish kindness or decency towards other people, including his family -- he does show protectiveness towards Hank but only when he's invited danger to them.  I guess signing the divorce papers might count.

In this sense, I think Kim is a much stronger iteration of the "Mr Chips to Scarface" archetype.  I don't think BCS has the road left for her to go full "Scarface" but she's certainly travelled a long way from "Mr Chips".

[Soobs]

On 4/26/2022 at 8:35 PM, qtpye said:

I usually think Gilligan is a genius but I am still confused as to why the Hell Kim is so hellbent on destroying Howard?

Yes, he could be a shitty manager (doc review) but HHM put her through law school and forgave her debt when she went on to a rival firm. I was fully on board with her leaving HHM but this is too much

I think Gilligan is an amazing writer but I really still do not understand what is going on with her.

 

I agree. Her motivations don't make a lot of sense and I'll add that I have never believed her and Jimmy as a couple. She has more heat with Howard than she does Jimmy. It's especially a bummer because she's basically the only woman on the entire show. The women of Breaking Bad (even Lydia) were a lot more believable as real people. I don't know if the problem is her acting or the writing or both but the longer the show goes on, the more it stands out.

I hate to seem so critical because I really do like this show but there's something off about her character that always has bugged me.

[scenario]

34 minutes ago, Soobs said:

I agree. Her motivations don't make a lot of sense and I'll add that I have never believed her and Jimmy as a couple. She has more heat with Howard than she does Jimmy. It's especially a bummer because she's basically the only woman on the entire show. The women of Breaking Bad (even Lydia) were a lot more believable as real people. I don't know if the problem is her acting or the writing or both but the longer the show goes on, the more it stands out.

I hate to seem so critical because I really do like this show but there's something off about her character that always has bugged me.

I've met women just like her. Angry at the world but keeps it totally bottled up. The most superficially logical people can act irrational in their private lives. 

[peeayebee]

I don't remember if anyone said this, but the place where Nacho was killed is the same place in the ep 'Klick' (which I just rewatched) where Mike was going to shoot Hector.

[Crashcourse]

13 hours ago, Soobs said:

I don't know if the problem is her acting or the writing or both but the longer the show goes on, the more it stands out.

The main problem for me with the actress is the sharp, barking delivery of her lines.  Even when she's being "romantic" with Saul, she sounds like she's barking orders.   

[scenario]

35 minutes ago, Crashcourse said:

The main problem for me with the actress is the sharp, barking delivery of her lines.  Even when she's being "romantic" with Saul, she sounds like she's barking orders.   

Sounds just like my ex wife. 

[SimplexFish]

2 hours ago, Crashcourse said:

The main problem for me with the actress is the sharp, barking delivery of her lines.  Even when she's being "romantic" with Saul, she sounds like she's barking orders.   

YES!! And every line, every sentence (no matter what the situation good or bad) she delivers with a down affliction. I have always though she was a terrible actress and they could have done so much better for KW. 

I wonder if she speaks in this manner in her normal life?

Edited May 22, 2022 by SimplexFish

[SimplexFish]

16 hours ago, Soobs said:

I agree. Her motivations don't make a lot of sense and I'll add that I have never believed her and Jimmy as a couple. She has more heat with Howard than she does Jimmy. It's especially a bummer because she's basically the only woman on the entire show. The women of Breaking Bad (even Lydia) were a lot more believable as real people. I don't know if the problem is her acting or the writing or both but the longer the show goes on, the more it stands out.

I hate to seem so critical because I really do like this show but there's something off about her character that always has bugged me.

100% right on point...thank you

[Anela]

Oh, I didn't think I would like Nacho so much, but I love that he told them all that he hated them, basically told them to go fuck themselves, and got his "it was me" moment. Fuck you, Hector. Fring, too. All of them, except for Mike.. 

[Anela]

I thought Mike wanted him to shoot the guy he grabbed, so that he could snipe the others. I don't think he wanted him to kill himself. 

[PeterPirate]

Ological's analysis of the episode.  

[peeayebee]

That guy is so good.

It's funny though -- On the YouTube page alongside this was one of the videos by Dr Todd Grande. I didn't realize how much they resemble each other.

[LilJen]

So sad seeing Nacho on the phone with his dad. Emmy for Michael Mando for facial expression and vocal control.