InShane in the Membrane

[Timetoread]

Attention all peeps, especially any young women out there.

 

When you are saying NO, STOP IT, STOP IT, NO and man man continues to shove his fingers between your legs and only stops when you physically harm him IT IS ASSAULT/and or attempted rape.

 

No amount of alcohol or past relationship status gives someone the right to do this to you.

 

/PSA

 

Even with the PSA and the insinuation that I am a clearly a rape sympathizer, I still didn't view that as an attempted rape.  He was definitely wrong and she let him know in no-uncertain terms, but I didn't see an attempt to have sex whether she consented or not.  She did not consent and it stopped there.

[Timetoread]

I'm not sure I'm following you. My point was would Shane have wanted to stop searching and risking lives if it was Carl who was missing. Rick showed that he was willing to continue to look for Sophia and he would have done the same for his own child.

Shane continued looking for Sophia as well. When did he stop? All he said to Rick is that this endless looking is getting ridiculous because even before the ZA a child missing outdoors would have been considered most likely dead after three days and that it didn't make sense to risk losing MORE people for a child who was probably (AND WAS) dead. For his own child, or his godson, he would have looked forever, but most parents would. That doesn't prove he's a psychopath.

Speaking of which, one thing I never bought is that the Governor was some nice kind Joe Schmo before the ZA and that losing Penny made him a monster. Sociopaths are born not made. We have NO confirmation at all that he was nice before things went down. Grief doesn't make you a new person. EVERYBODY in the ZA lost someone close to them and many lost children, but they don't kill humans and keep heads in tanks and sexually assault random strangers and feed people to walkers.

[kj4ever]

Even with the PSA and the insinuation that I am a clearly a rape sympathizer, I still didn't view that as an attempted rape.  He was definitely wrong and she let him know in no-uncertain terms, but I didn't see an attempt to have sex whether she consented or not.  She did not consent and it stopped there.

He was man handling her as she said NO NO NO, pushing away at him, and he shoved his hands between her legs.  He would go to prison for that.  Period.  Just because he didn't force her into the actual act of penetration with his penis once she scratched the holy hell out of him does not mean he did not sexual assault her.

[Timetoread]

I also think Shane had the group at a time when they hadn't yet faced any true dangers.

If anything I think it was the opposite. Those people were running for their lives and got out of the city. They found a pretty safe place to be until the herd followed Rick out of Atlanta.

And Rick is not king of good decisions either. The greatest hits DVD includes: chain a man to the building then go back to get him. Or save a little girl in the woods but tell her to run back by herself. Or live with an old man who is convinced that walkers are just sick people that he keeps in a barn and feeds. Or kill two guys who you KNOW are bad news but take their friend with you to your secret hideout and then torture him so that he won't reveal your location. Or let a prisoner go so that he can come back and cause the death of two more of your constantly dwindling group. Or hand the new black girl over to the Governor (a decision, interestingly enough, that was overridden by the "racist and misogynistic" Merle). Or go babble into a toy phone to your dead wife while leaving your grieving son and newborn to their own fates. Or decide to be a farmer and not hunt down the Governor so that he can muster enough strength - and a tank - to come destroy your home. Yeah Rick is freakin Einstein!

[Boofish]

 

Shane had the group at a time when they were still tip-toeing around each other, but that wasn't going to last. The powder keg Rick found on the roof was proof. (and I never understood who let a racist, misogynist drug addict go on a run with women and minorities)

SO MUCH THIS!

 

There was so many clues that Camp Dinner Bell wasn't all it was cracked up to be

 

Jacqui acknowledged that Carol had "fresh bruises" long before Shane beat his chipmunk cheeks into submission. That beating had nothing to do with sticking up for Carol (although I'm glad he did it)

He himself acknowledged Merle was a "douchebag" and even Lori claimed "Merle aint worth none of your lives; not even with guns thrown in" That tells me that everyone was tiptoeing around the Dixon brothers at the time

Dale looked legitimately terrified when they realized someone would have to tell Daryl Merle got left behind

It was Daryl who said the problem with camp was "they had no leader"

Those people knew Rick all of 30 seconds before they were hanging on his every word and looking to him to keep them safe

 

It just don't sound like to me Shane was doing such a bang up job.

 

The only point I agree about as far as Shane in the "Strangers" thread is that he saved Rick and his family (and when he realized he was alive immediately tried to kill him before he got caught)

[Timetoread]

He would go to prison for that. Period. Just because he didn't force her into the actual act of penetration with his penis once she scratched the holy hell out of him does not mean he did not sexual assault her.

Actually he wouldn't. At best he'd be suspended by his job for harassment - but maybe not even that. Lori was not a strange woman who he grabbed at or a minor he was molesting, she was his "long term" consenting sexual partner until literally the week before. This couple did not break up or have an altercation, her thought-to-be- dead husband showed up and that served as an implied cease and desist. However in his drunken state he implored (admittedly boorishly) for sex and was rejected in a manner appropriate to his manner. It stopped there. Also, we barely put people in jail for actual murder. So I don't see a jury convicting him for rape for this.

[ghoulina]

Shane continued looking for Sophia as well.  When did he stop?

 

Shane was very much against looking for Sophia. If Rick wasn't there, if Shane was still in charge, he would not have been out looking for her.. The only reason he stayed around and participated in what the group wanted was because he wanted to stay close to Lori and Carl. 

 

Speaking of which, one thing I never bought is that the Governor was some nice kind Joe Schmo before the ZA and that losing Penny made him a monster.  Sociopaths are born not made.  We have NO confirmation at all that he was nice before things went down.  Grief doesn't make you a new person.  EVERYBODY in the ZA lost someone close to them and many lost children, but they don't kill humans and keep heads in tanks and sexually assault random strangers and feed people to walkers.

 

I'm not saying that was definitively a good person, but I could see it being true. I know everyone has lost someone, but not everyone copes with grief the same way. I do think that traumatic experiences can turn some people crazy, while others get through them with some time. I don't know...maybe there was something wrong with him from birth that caused him to "snap" when his daughter became a walker, but I still think he could have been functioning and living as a nice, normal family guy before the turn. 

 

If anything I think it was the opposite.  Those people were running for their lives and got out of the city.  They found a pretty safe place to be until the herd followed Rick out of Atlanta.

 

But Shane didn't get all of those people out of the city. He got Lori and Carl out - and I commend him for that. But the rest were just people who met up on the highway and eventually set up camp together. Somehow they all got themselves out of the city and randomly found each other in that traffic jam. That far out of the city, that early on, there didn't appear to be a large walker problem yet. I still maintain they hadn't really faced many given the way they had that camp set up so loosely. 

[Timetoread]

It just don't sound like to me Shane was doing such a bang up job.

The only point I agree about as far as Shane in the "Strangers" thread is that he saved Rick and his family (and when he realized he was alive immediately tried to kill him before he got caught)

Who said Shane was doing a bang up job? I don't think ANYBODY has done a bang up job thus far. Rick STILL can't get these people to do anything. I don't even understand the arguments anymore, everything is so extreme. So in order for my point that Shane wasn't the antichrist to have any validity I have to prove instead that he was worthy of being the next Pope? My point continues simply to be that the character I saw doesn't qualify, in my book, as an evil or even BAD man. He was wrong a few times and definitely had a temper but I never saw this decent into madness and malice that everybody else saw. I'll rewatch the first two seasons. Maybe I'll change my mind.

[Timetoread]

Shane was very much against looking for Sophia. If Rick wasn't there, if Shane was still in charge, he would not have been out looking for her..

And he would have been right because Sophia was dead. They could have looked for five years and she STILL would have been dead. He knew she was dead, not out of malice but out of EXPERIENCE. How is Sophia Shane's fault?

He got Lori and Carl out - and I commend him for that.

Why does he get commendation for that if his only motives in life were rape and child murder? If he was the man that you assert that he was, then he was pure evil and any good was purely accidental. Makes you wonder about Rick that he would call such a man "brother" doesn't it?

[Boofish]

 

chain a man to the building then go back to get him.  Or save a little girl in the woods but tell her to run back by herself.  Or live with an old man who is convinced that walkers are just sick people that he keeps in a barn and feeds. Or kill two guys who you KNOW are bad news but take their friend with you to your secret hideout and then torture him so that he won't reveal your location.  Or let a prisoner go so that he can come back and cause the death of two more of your constantly dwindling group.  Or hand the new black girl over to the Governor (a decision, interestingly enough, that was overridden by the "racist and misogynistic" Merle).  Or go babble into a toy phone to your dead wife while leaving your grieving son and newborn to their own fates.  Or decide to be a farmer and not hunt down the Governor so that he can muster enough strength - and a tank - to come destroy your home.    Yeah Rick is freakin Einstein!

I agree some of his decisions could use some tweaking

 

1. He gave T-Dog the key. I believe he was only meant to be contained until they figured a way out the mess.

2. He told Sophia "IF I DON'T COME BACK - run back to the highway with the others and keep the sun on your left shoulder" I think she ran away out of fear but I don't blame Rick for that

3. How long were they on the farm before they knew those walkers were in the barn? They could have just left but they all wanted the security they felt they were being provided. It was not his decision and I think he was willing to leave it be so they would not have to leave the farm

4. He was still operating on conscouis when he saved that idiot kid but he should have just did as Herschel said and shoot that kid or dropped him off somewhere on their way home

5. He let him out in a yard of walkers; I think it was safe to assume he wasn't going to make it but I agree that he should have just killed all the prisoners like he wanted to

6. No one knew or trusted Michonne but I agree this was an "atomic eye roll" moment for me. Merle had enough sense to know handing her over would have solved nothing

7. Yeah, he lost his mind there for awhile but I'll give him that .. the guilt and shame of knowing he was directly or indirectly responsible for all those deaths

8. Agree they should have went on the hunt for the Governor

 

I know it's not obvious but I'm a Rick apologist :). Hopefully my comments are taken with the thought it just my opinion and I enjoy being part of the conversation. Not disrepect or an arguement

[ghoulina]

Why does he get commendation for that if his only motives in life were rape and child murder?  If he was the man that you assert that he was, then he was pure evil and any good was purely accidental.  Makes you wonder about Rick that he would call such a man "brother" doesn't it?

 

You're clearly reading more into my posts than was there. I have NEVER accused Shane of wanting to rape and murder. He certainly didn't get Carl and Lori out of the city with ill intentions. He did it for Rick, whom he loved....and because he also cared about them as his own. I don't know what kind of man you think I'm asserting Shane was, but if you read all of my posts in this thread, you will see that I felt very badly for Shane. I think Shane was a bit of a macho braggart before the turn, but that's about it. He did the right thing in helping his friend and his family. Then he got caught up in a set of bad circumstances. He fell for his friend's wife, he became father figure to the child. And then that was all taken away. And he had to watch the re-connected love story right in front of his face day in and day out. Shane still loved Rick, but he was angry at him, and jealous. Shane just became very conflicted and was driven further and further to a bad place. 

 

So no, I don't think Shane was pure evil. I've never said as such. But I will disagree when some people think HE had all the right ideas and Rick is just an idiot. I think they are BOTH flawed in their own ways, and it really just boils down to what kind of leader you would prefer. Personally, *I* would prefer a leader like Rick, but I recognize that others might want Shane. I think long-term  Rick would make a better leader, but that doesn't mean I think Shane was a horrible person. 

[Timetoread]

I agree some of his decisions could use some tweaking

 

1. He gave T-Dog the key. I believe he was only meant to be contained until they figured a way out the mess.

2. He told Sophia "IF I DON'T COME BACK - run back to the highway with the others and keep the sun on your left shoulder" I think she ran away out of fear but I don't blame Rick for that

3. How long were they on the farm before they knew those walkers were in the barn? They could have just left but they all wanted the security they felt they were being provided. It was not his decision and I think he was willing to leave it be so they would not have to leave the farm

4. He was still operating on conscouis when he saved that idiot kid but he should have just did as Herschel said and shoot that kid or dropped him off somewhere on their way home

5. He let him out in a yard of walkers; I think it was safe to assume he wasn't going to make it but I agree that he should have just killed all the prisoners like he wanted to

6. No one knew or trusted Michonne but I agree this was an "atomic eye roll" moment for me. Merle had enough sense to know handing her over would have solved nothing

7. Yeah, he lost his mind there for awhile but I'll give him that .. the guilt and shame of knowing he was directly or indirectly responsible for all those deaths

8. Agree they should have went on the hunt for the Governor

 

I know it's not obvious but I'm a Rick apologist :). Hopefully my comments are taken with the thought it just my opinion and I enjoy being part of the conversation. Not disrepect or an argument

 

LOL!  Clearly you're a Rick girl.  Actually, I am too.  Although I have to strengthen your argument for number 3 - Rick was kissing up to Hershel because Hershel saved Carl.  And yes, that is reason enough in my book. 

 

Rick can be a colossal bonehead, but he means well and I like how he is developing.  I loved Shane because I guess, in a way, I understand men of his temperament (angry doesn't necessarily mean MEAN) - and I LURVES me some Jon Bernthal, but Rick has grown on me because even though my palm lives on my face for many of his actions, he is very strong (the strongest, as Shane learned the hard way) when he needs to be and I can't help but respect that.

[Timetoread]

You're clearly reading more into my posts than was there. I have NEVER accused Shane of wanting to rape and murder. He certainly didn't get Carl and Lori out of the city with ill intentions. He did it for Rick, whom he loved....and because he also cared about them as his own. I don't know what kind of man you think I'm asserting Shane was, but if you read all of my posts in this thread, you will see that I felt very badly for Shane. I think Shane was a bit of a macho braggart before the turn, but that's about it. He did the right thing in helping his friend and his family. Then he got caught up in a set of bad circumstances. He fell for his friend's wife, he became father figure to the child. And then that was all taken away. And he had to watch the re-connected love story right in front of his face day in and day out. Shane still loved Rick, but he was angry at him, and jealous. Shane just became very conflicted and was driven further and further to a bad place. 

 

So no, I don't think Shane was pure evil. I've never said as such. But I will disagree when some people think HE had all the right ideas and Rick is just an idiot. I think they are BOTH flawed in their own ways, and it really just boils down to what kind of leader you would prefer. Personally, *I* would prefer a leader like Rick, but I recognize that others might want Shane. I think long-term  Rick would make a better leader, but that doesn't mean I think Shane was a horrible person. 

 

Sorry.  I think I confused you with another poster.  As to what kind of leader I'd like?  Don't laugh but I like who Carl is becoming.  I think Shane was a tad lost and Rick is a bit boneheaded and Governer was a bit cray cray and Gareth has a bit of cannibalism (nuff said there) but I see Carl absorbing the best of what he encounters.  He's made mistakes but he responds quickly to course correction.  He is growing into a strong but caring MAN and I would follow an adult Carl.

[kj4ever]

<<He would go to prison for that.  Period.  Just because he didn't force her into the actual act of penetration with his penis once she scratched the holy hell out of him does not mean he did not sexual assault her.>>

 

Actually he wouldn't.  At best he'd be suspended by his job for harassment - but maybe not even that.  Lori was not a strange woman who he grabbed at or a minor he was molesting, she was his "long term" consenting sexual partner until literally the week before.  This couple did not break up or have an altercation, her thought-to-be- dead husband showed up and that served as an implied cease and desist.  However in his drunken state he implored (admittedly boorishly) for sex and was rejected in a manner appropriate to his manner.   It stopped there.  Also, we barely put people in jail for actual murder.  So I don't see a jury convicting him for rape for this. 

OH MY GOD I might implode.  One time consenting doesn't mean someone has the right to rape/assault you whenever they want!  Dear GOD it's like it's 1955 here.

 

Definition:  Sexual assault, a form of sexual violence, is any involuntary sexual act in which a person is threatened, coerced, or forced to engage against their will, or any non-consensual sexual touching of a person. This includes rape (such as forced vaginal, anal or oral penetration or drug facilitated sexual assault), groping, forced kissing, child sexual abuse, or the torture of the victim in a sexual manner.

 

Shane attempted to rape her/sexually assaulted her.  I don't care if he was sorry or drunk or had a relationship with her prior.  That is the LAW.

 

So my ex boyfriend can come shove his fingers inbetween my legs because I had sex with him before?  AAArrrghhh....

Edited October 21, 2014 by kj4ever

[HolmesUltimateQu]

It was also Shane who kept the ENTIRE group together in check, a group that included Merle, before Rick even got there. It was Shane who beat Ed to a pulp for victimizing the worlds biggest victim, Carol, and let it be known that he would not tolerate the menfolk acting a fool with the women folk.  It was Shane who saved Rick's raggedy ass family in the first place AND saved Rick.  Shane wasn't this indiscriminate killer that people have built him up to be - he wasn't the Governor.  He wasn't a Termite.  He killed Otis (who shot Carl), Randall (from the marauding band of rapists) and attempted to kill Rick (and I believe he was far gone by this point from grief and jealousy) - but he never harmed ANYONE in their group and went through it all WITH them, not against them.   I don't have enough time to count up Rick's body count, including Shane. "I killed my best friend for you people!"  "I killed Shane because he was undermining my authority."  Whatever.  Rick's no freakin Saint and Shane wasn't Satan's little brother.  Both are/were flawed.  Both made good and bad decisions.  Both did the best they could.  And both had HORRIBLE taste in women (looking at you Lori).  I see why they were best friends - two sides of the same coin.

 

From the Strangers thread.

 

I love this because I agree.

When I think back to Shane and his behavior (minus anything angsty-Lori related), he wasn't too far from Rick NOW. It makes me sad to think the character is gone - given the circumstances of how they've all grown (and how Shane was completely right about a lot of things - Rick just wasn't there mentally yet), it would've been interesting to see Shane at the prison, Shane after Lori died, Shane with Rick at Terminus.

I also agree with the posters who argue that he was most likely in shock - like everyone else - after the apocalypse started. I don't think he would've been a 'governor type' -- that's what I hold on to.

My little TV heart is still mourning what Shane could have been. I totally blame Lori.

[HolmesUltimateQu]

OH MY GOD I might implode.  One time consenting doesn't mean someone has the right to rape/assault you whenever they want!  Dear GOD it's like it's 1955 here.

 

Definition:  Sexual assault, a form of sexual violence, is any involuntary sexual act in which a person is threatened, coerced, or forced to engage against their will, or any non-consensual sexual touching of a person. This includes rape (such as forced vaginal, anal or oral penetration or drug facilitated sexual assault), groping, forced kissing, child sexual abuse, or the torture of the victim in a sexual manner.

 

Shane attempted to rape her/sexually assaulted her.  I don't care if he was sorry or drunk or had a relationship with her prior.  That is the LAW.

 

So my ex boyfriend can come shove his fingers inbetween my legs because I had sex with him before?  AAArrrghhh....

 

He did assault her -- and obviously he shouldn't have. I can argue for Shane all day but I don't touch this part of it. He was wrong.

He shouldn't have touched her.

He should've just left afterwards. I think he was wrong when he assaulted her.

 

There are also other times when Lori was wrong. She should've just let him go. Or not been such a hateful woman after she found out she was pregnant and wouldn't even entertain the notion that the baby was Shane's (even though it was most likely his baby).

 

Things are complicated. Lori clearly wasn't afraid of Shane after that -- and like someone mentioned upthread, it hadn't been very long since they WERE in a consenting relationship together. It doesn't make it right - he absolutely should NOT have put his hands on her and the fact he did is NOT Lori's fault. Like I said, he should've just left after that. I don't think Shane was a rapist - I think he had a weak, bad moment where he messed up. I think he would've been fine on his own. Maybe he would've found his own (new) family to protect. There are a lot of love connections during a ZA apparently.

[Timetoread]

OH MY GOD I might implode.  One time consenting doesn't mean someone has the right to rape/assault you whenever they want!  Dear GOD it's like it's 1955 here.

 

Definition:  Sexual assault, a form of sexual violence, is any involuntary sexual act in which a person is threatened, coerced, or forced to engage against their will, or any non-consensual sexual touching of a person. This includes rape (such as forced vaginal, anal or oral penetration or drug facilitated sexual assault), groping, forced kissing, child sexual abuse, or the torture of the victim in a sexual manner.

 

Shane attempted to rape her/sexually assaulted her.  I don't care if he was sorry or drunk or had a relationship with her prior.  That is the LAW.

 

So my ex boyfriend can come shove his fingers inbetween my legs because I had sex with him before?  AAArrrghhh....

 

Ok, fine. Shane raped Lori. Implosion averted.

[Timetoread]

I totally blame Lori.

So do I. Honestly if she weren't such a (what's the female version of douchebag?) I think Shane would still be there and he and Rick would be working side by side raising their children together. But to quote Janet Jackson "That's the way love goes." :)

[Iguessnot]

The whole damn show is full of jailable offenses and assaults by both the good and bad guys. Let us converse without the PSA censorship. 

[Pete Martell]

I also think Shane had the group at a time when they hadn't yet faced any true dangers.

If anything I think it was the opposite. Those people were running for their lives and got out of the city. They found a pretty safe place to be until the herd followed Rick out of Atlanta.

And Rick is not king of good decisions either.

That was basic ability Shane had been trained to do. The group was soft and weak in the early episodes, not battle-tested, so I can't imagine they had any big difficulties getting out of the city.

The hard part began when they actually had to deal with walkers becoming enough of a dominant force in the world that they began to overrun supposedly safe places. And when tensions in the group that were always waiting to boil over finally did.

Rick's made plenty of mistakes. I'm not mentioning them because that's generally not something people disagree with. People often say that Rick screwed up because he was so weak and naive, and he could only survive if he was hard like Shane, Shane was the ideal leader, Shane was a bad-ass who was ruined by Lori.

I don't really agree with that fandom view.

I think the show gave relatively nuanced portrayals of both Rick and Shane in those first two seasons, which is why I never felt a need to choose sides.

I think Shane was an insecure guy who often wondered why the world had left him behind. Rick, his best friend, his brother, had a wife and a son - the American dream and so forth, and Shane's ideal - and he saw Rick struggle with this. I think in his mind he kept thinking, "Why didn't that happen to me?" He got this chance after the ZA. Rick was gone (and I don't think he wanted Rick to die, I think he assumed Rick was dead, with good reason). Lori, who was also very insecure, needed him. So did Carl. And the world now needed his skills, without any pesky pre-ZA stuff holding him back.

Once all of this that he thought had been given to him was taken away, it triggered many of the demons he'd likely had for a long time. And he wasn't able to cope with them.

I don't think he would have been the Governor if he'd left in early season 2, as he'd planned. I think he would have healed and probably had a better life without the group.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Dougal

[Boofish]

I will agree with some of his "Shane-nanigans"

 

I agree telling Lori Rick was dead (the first time) to get her to leave. Otherwise, Olive Oyl would have tried to go and save him herself because she is an idiot

I agree Randall, unfortunately, should have been "dealt with"

 

And that's pretty much it

[Boofish]

Other than the fact I love Rick (which again is not that obvious) I forgave him for seasons 1 half way season 2 offenses because the man woke up from a coma with no idea what happened. Didn't even know what a walker was and how to kill them. Shane (and the rest of the group) saw what happened and knew the dangers. I only fault Shane for becoming General Patton AFTER Rick showed up; he seems to me before that he was content hunting frogs and sending Glen into the city for supplies. Rick finally made Camp Dinner Bell realize there were in danger.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Boofish

[Timetoread]

I don't think he would have been the Governor if he'd left in early season 2, as he'd planned. I think he would have healed and probably had a better life without the group.

100% on the whole post! I think if he and Andrea left together they would have both healed and been better off. This group represented a no-win situation.

Just an aside on another character: I always felt that Dale's hate for Shane was because he had the hots for Andrea. Did you feel that too?

Other than the fact I love Rick (which again is not that obvious) I forgave him for seasons 1 half way season 2 offenses because the man woke up from a coma with no idea what happened. Didn't even know what a walker was and how to kill them. Shane (and the rest of the group) saw what happened and knew the dangers. I only fault Shane for becoming General Patton AFTER Rick showed up; he seems to me before that he was content hunting frogs and sending Glen into the city for supplies. Rick finally made Camp Dinner Bell realize there were in danger.

That's because Rick IS the danger! *sticks out tongue and runs real fast out the room!*

[Boofish]

 

That's because Rick IS the danger!  *sticks out tongue and runs real fast out the room!*

I have no valid counterpoint for this one; it's your win (for now - MUUHAHAHHHAAAA MUU HAHAHAHA *that's my evil villian laugh*)

 

I do wish Shane was still alive only because the Governor and Gareth would have met their match

[Pete Martell]

I think that was probably a factor for Dale. Another was that Dale always needed to know how everyone was thinking and feeling, and Shane wasn't the type of person to vomit up his feelings.

[ghoulina]

I definitely feel like Dale had some creeper feelings towards Andrea. I didn't the first time I watched, but now....yea, I see it. So there was some jealousy, mixed in with a father's stance of - "What would SHE want with HIM?". Yea, that's why it was creepy. 

 

But, also, Dale saw Shane put the sights on Rick very early on, and I just don't think he trusted him after that. 

[Constantinople]

Just an aside on another character:  I always felt that Dale's hate for Shane was because he had the hots for Andrea.  Did you feel that too?

 

I think that was probably a factor for Dale. Another was that Dale always needed to know how everyone was thinking and feeling, and Shane wasn't the type of person to vomit up his feelings.

That may be, but I think the fundamental clash between Dale and Shane was that each liked bossing people around, and each felt his way was self-evidently the right way. They just had different approaches. Dale was passive aggressive: sitting down with Andrea at the CDC as the clock counted down on the bomb, "fixing" the camper so it wouldn't start so they'd be forced to stay longer by the highway and search for Sophia. Shane was just aggressive.

[GodsBeloved]

I think that was probably a factor for Dale. Another was that Dale always needed to know how everyone was thinking and feeling, and Shane wasn't the type of person to vomit up his feelings.

Plus Dale saw Shane pointing his rifle at Rick in the woods.

I definitely feel like Dale had some creeper feelings towards Andrea. I didn't the first time I watched, but now....yea, I see it. So there was some jealousy, mixed in with a father's stance of - "What would SHE want with HIM?". Yea, that's why it was creepy. 

 

But, also, Dale saw Shane put the sights on Rick very early on, and I just don't think he trusted him after that. 

You beat me to it.

[Timetoread]

The thing is, I wonder how things would have turned out if Dale, instead of hating that young, virile, whippersnapper had instead taken him under wing and gotten him to talk.  He might have found that this was a dude who was deep in his feelings over an unwinnable situation.  It would explain his mood, his momentary insanity when he pointed his sights at his best friend, why he's wound so tight, and why having Andrea saddle up soothed his pain for minute.  He needed someone to do for him what Hershel did for Rick.

 

I could hear a convo between wiser prison Hershel and Shane:

 

S: I hate everybody and everything.

H:  Don't say that.

S: I mean I'm glad he's alive. I am!  I even tried to carry him out when everything was going down.  But I thought I lost him and I thought that he would want me to save Lori and Carl.  And I did.

H:  I know.

S: And I didn't go into this thinking that me and Lori would be a thing.  I mean yeah, she's beautiful, but I never ONCE made a move on Rick's wife.  I was the best man at their wedding for chrissakes! 

H: Mmmm

S:  But things happen, you know, and ...  and I love Carl like he's my own.  I'd die for that kid!  I was right outside the room when he was born.  There was Rick and Me blubbering like idiots when that boy came out.

H: I know that.

S:  But now everything's gone to sh*t and Rick's back and I'm stuck holding the bag.  How is that fair?  I love Lori.  And you know what?  She loves me too.  And now...with the baby...

H: Listen son, nobody is saying that the whole situation isn't the worst thing ever.  It is.  It's not fair.  But you got understand that it is how it has to be.  Do you really think that Rick is just going to let go of his family because you all THOUGHT he was dead?  That he's going to stop being Lori's husband?  Or Carl's father?

S:  And MY baby's father?

H: Unfortunately yes.  Your baby is Lori's baby and Lori's husband is going to be that baby's father.  Period.

S: ...

H:  But son you can't let this beat you.  You've got more than you know.  You and Rick can get through this, I know you can.  And Carl still needs you even with his parents here.  And you can be a guardian angel to your baby.

S:  And Lori?

H:  Lori, you're going to have to let go.

S: ....

H:  But boy you're gonna have to have faith.  Even now, with all that's going on, you can find love again.  The good thing about rock bottom is that there's nowhere left to go but up.  Pick yourself up and get through this.  You've got plenty to live for.  Plenty.

S: *sniff*.  Yeah.  But I don't think I can do it here.

H:  Then go.  You're strong and you'll make it.

S:  Thanks.  I will.

 

Hershel gives Lori a shot to make her shut up and Shane slips away in the night.  He shows up several seasons later to save the group from crazies and brings with him his NEW group of which he is the leader and a wife and a baby or two.  And when he looks at Judith he realizes that she doesn't look anything like him.

 

The End

(can you tell things are slow at work today?)

[HolmesUltimateQu]

<<I totally blame Lori.>>

 

So do I.  Honestly if she weren't such a (what's the female version of douchebag?) I think Shane would still be there and he and Rick would be working side by side raising their children together.  But to quote Janet Jackson "That's the way love goes."  :)

 

Seriously.

I hated when Lori blew off their entire relationship (I do give her some leeway here, because omg, what a predicament to be in...),and then saying that baby wasn't his -- but then asking him to stay? Why, Lori? WHY!? This is why nobody mourned your death, LORI!

[Timetoread]

But you know what the worst thing about Lori was?  As much as I hated her bony butt for 2 and a half seasons and kept bribing the fence walkers to go after the skinny one and even wished death on the unborn baby so that it would turn and chomp its way out of her...I cried through her whole death scene.  I hated her but damn!  That was a death I'd save for the Governor or Gareth.  That was brutal!

[HolmesUltimateQu]

Her death WAS brutal. I cried too -- but it was Carl and Rick who made me emotional.  

 

I cried for Shane too. I hated that it had to be that way with Shane. I need to go back and rewatch and see how I'm feeling.

[Boofish]

I think Shane's downward spiral was not Rick coming back but Lori acting as if everything that happened to Rick was his fault. I hated the way she treated him and IMMEDIATELY without any thought to her role in the whole affair. But her death hit me in the gut (no pun intended) At that moment, even I forgave her.

[SimoneS]

I regret coming into this thread. The misogyny and rationalization of the attempted rapist Shane turns my stomach.

[Nashville]

Not me.

I wanted to burn her corpse and dance in the ashes.

You know, kick them around some.

So there was NO chance she could come back in any form ever ever again.

Then she STILL came back.

As a disembodied voice.

Which is harder than hell to kill. Again.

F***ing bitch.

[Seawolff]

I can't even begin to compare Shane with the Governor.

Shane had a position of leadership in the community pre ZA.

Governor? He was a weasel who stole his fathers cigarettes, let his brother take the rap, and then hated his brother for having more guts than him. Story of his life. Governor cannot tolerate the existence of anyone who has more guts or power than him. He needs to be worshipped.

Shane questioned leadership, but would be ok with any leadership that coincided with his survival shock mode point of view at the time. He may have been able to adapt if he could have just gotten through that OMG week of "I'm having a baby and the right decisions are not being made about it"

[ghoulina]

I think Shane's downward spiral was not Rick coming back but Lori acting as if everything that happened to Rick was his fault. I hated the way she treated him and IMMEDIATELY without any thought to her role in the whole affair.

 

I understood Lori's gut reaction. She didn't see Rick in the hospital, she didn't see all that was going on - she was relying on Shane's word. And then Rick just pop's up. It was basically a miracle he survived, so I get her thinking Shane lied to her rather than immediately being able to believe Rick survived all that. 

 

I can't completely hate on Shane OR Lori for how they acted after Rick came back. It was beyond unexpected and really took them on a roller coaster ride of emotions. 

[LilySilver]

I regret coming into this thread. The misogyny and rationalization of the attempted rapist Shane turns my stomach.

I'm sorry it's upsetting to you. It's a tough subject.  

 

However, I don't think hating Lori (or even blaming her for lots of problems and Rick's or Shane's reactions) is misogyny.

 

As for rationalizing Shane's behavior, some people view any sexual assault as "rape" or "attempted rape" while others acknowledge a continuum of offenses ranging from simple inappropriate behavior to sexual misconduct to sexual assault to attempted rape to rape.  The law acknowledges differences even in the degree of a completed act of rape.  There is room for disagreement on what Shane's intent was, but there's no need to make assumptions about other posters' overall opinion of women based on this difference of opinion.  In my view, Shane wanted to have consensual sex with Lori. He did sexually assault her with this attempt in mind.  To me the scene made it clear that he was not willing to pursue sex with Lori if it wasn't consensual.  If he had, no fight she could have put up would have stopped him.  Was it deplorable, and did it speak to what Shane might be capable of?  Of course.  Was it walking a fine line? Definitely. Can I see why some people would label it attempted rape? Sure.  But there is clearly room for disagreement as to whether he crossed the line without melodramatic judgment of those who disagree.

 

It does, in fact, matter a great deal to me where Shane stopped, where he regained control of himself (even if it took Lori violently fending him off).  If I were Lori (perish the thought) it would absolutely matter to me that Shane didn't take it a step, or more, further.  I didn't read a single post that excused his behavior in any way, or said it was okay to do what he did.  The disagreement was the label of "attempted rape," and I think it's been debated respectfully. I don't think it's misogynistic to see a continuum of behavior and to question where Shane's behavior falls on that continuum. 

 

If that POV offends you, I am sincerely sorry. Shane assaulted Lori, in my view.  Attempting to rape her would take it a step further; he stopped before that line. In my view.  Nowhere have I said that what he did was okay or that Lori (or young women everywhere) should accept it.

 

It's an emotional subject into which, for women especially, our personal experiences probably come into play.  It does for me, and the distinction between what Shane did and what someone does who takes it beyond that line is an important one imo. There's a difference in intent and outcome between someone who does what he did and someone who is willing to dominate in order to have sex with a woman whether she wants to or not.  

Edited October 22, 2014 by LilySilver

[RedheadZombie]

Shane continued looking for Sophia as well.  When did he stop?  All he said to Rick is that this endless looking is getting ridiculous because even before the ZA a child missing outdoors would have been considered most likely dead after three days and that it didn't make sense to risk losing MORE people for a child who was probably (AND WAS) dead.  For his own child, or his godson, he would have looked forever, but most parents would.  That doesn't prove he's a psychopath. 

 

Speaking of which, one thing I never bought is that the Governor was some nice kind Joe Schmo before the ZA and that losing Penny made him a monster.  Sociopaths are born not made.  We have NO confirmation at all that he was nice before things went down.  Grief doesn't make you a new person.  EVERYBODY in the ZA lost someone close to them and many lost children, but they don't kill humans and keep heads in tanks and sexually assault random strangers and feed people to walkers.

 

I don't think Shane was a psychopath, either.

 

The rest of my comments are regarding the governor, and since he doesn't seem to have his own thread, I'm taking it to Season 3:  Prisons, Governor, etc.

[lawless]

I see it your way Lilysilver. For what it's worth, just to explain this perspective a bit more, at least for me, criminal laws usually define all crimes in terms of degrees and levels -- there are even different charges (and thus different ways of conceptualizing) for different types of homicides, as well as assaults and, of course, sex crimes. Thinking from a law enforcement perspective, I can't see proving up rape or even attempted rape base on what I saw Shane do. However, putting your hand forcibly between a woman's legs when she had made clear she doesn't want you to do so is a type of assault/lower level sex offense. In Shane's particular case, I think it was meant as yet another sign of either Shane's impending mental breakdown/the shape of things to come. Where would he have ended up if he'd lived and gotten past the freak out? I don't know. But something I had forgotten is that Herschel instinctively didn't trust him/like him, which is not a good sign. Sigh. I wonder if Shane might have settled down if Lori hadn't been pregnant and if he and Andrea pursued things. But there was a hardness and selfishness to Shane that came out at times that might have made it impossible to deal with in the group.

[ghoulina]

I tend to think Shane was too far gone when he killed Otis. That affected him more than he let on, more than anyone knew. He was stuck in an impossible spot, and I fully believe he did it to save Carl. I don't hate him for it. But I think he may have hated himself. I don't think he could get that image out of his mind, and having to live with a lie of that magnitude can really eat away at you. That situation probably just cemented him as more of an outsider and really just pushed him over into the dark side. He probably thought, "Well, hell, I've already shot an innocent man in cold blood, I might as well go full Shane". 

[Timetoread]

It does for me, and the distinction between what Shane did and what someone does who takes it beyond that line is an important one imo. There's a difference in intent and outcome between someone who does what he did and someone who is willing to dominate in order to have sex with a woman whether she wants to or not.

Wonderful post Lilysilver. I didn't post this at the time, because this is just talk about a tv show and I was stopping myself from getting too heated: I've had this argument online before and it got very heated and very personal. I was called all kinds of names and eventually left the site for an extended period. I'm introspective enough to question if there is a flaw in my logic or perspective that perhaps needs adjusting. I have a very good friend that is an attorney, 8 years county prosecutor and now criminal defense. I called her very upset about the exchange I'd had, and after deep lectures about not letting tv or the internet become serious enough in my life to cause me to be upset, she entertained my question. I asked her to define, legally, the distinctions of sexual assault, attempted rape, and rape. I told her the details of the event and later simply showed it to her. She said that while technically that does qualify as an assault, circumstance and context matters. For instance she point blank asked me if these two had ever had consensual sex. I told her yes. She asked if they were recent exes or long ago exes. I told her that they were an active couple until her husband showed up a couple of weeks before (in show time) and that there had been no breakup. She asked if he'd ever been shown to try this on another woman. I said no. She asked if he tried this on her again. I said no. She asked if he had perpetrated or threatened any woman with any violence. I said no. And did Lori consider herself, after the fact, to have been a victim of attempted rape and exhibit any fear of this man? I told her no and added that Lori is married to a man who would have killed him on the spot if she had reported it to him. "So she protected him?" Yes, I answered. Her final opinion was that as a prosecutor she would not bring this to trial. There are mitigating circumstances, he had no priors and did not fit a psychological profile that indicated at this time that he was a dangerous sex offender. His actions were indeed reprehensible but ultimately no harm was done, except to his face, and it was up to her to determine the degree of psychological damage that was inflicted upon her. But her actions show that she considered the matter closed between them. She could have pressed charges (in a non-ZA world) but most likely this wouldn't go to trial.

The final question I asked her was: "So do you think I am viewing this wrong and am apologetic to rape?" She laughed and first said, "You?" Note here that I am a pretty fiery, feisty broad whose father was a cop and whose been pretty extensively trained in self defense and anti-rape. But then she added seriously, "No. This is a situation where circumstance and context made all the difference. Same man, different woman, same action would add up to something completely different. BTW, stay off the internet!"

So yeah. It's a lightening rod issue and one of the rare issues that IMO, nobody's opinion is completely wrong. We all agree that Shane messed up and are arguing to the degree and the intent.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Dougal

[Timetoread]

But something I had forgotten is that Herschel instinctively didn't trust him/like him, which is not a good sign.

If I recall correctly Herschel did not like Shane because at this point Shane was sullen and combative. Shane didn't think they should be at the farm, he didn't like Herschel's take on the walkers, and he was carrying around the guilt of killing Otis and really wanted to blow that joint before the truth came out. He only stayed because Rick asked/begged, they were still looking for Sophia, and Stick-figure pleaded with him not to leave. He finally just blew his top about the barn full of walkers. Interestingly enough, however, Herschel admitted that Shane's display worked to convince him that the walkers were dead. He admitted that Shane was right.

[HalcyonDays]

Everyone --> Just a reminder to everyone to respect each other's opinions, regardless of whether you agree or disagree. Unfortunately, conflicting opinions concerning a subject matter as serious and disturbing as rape can - and will - invoke passionate responses and strong emotions, and may lead to posts attacking others. The discussions thus far have been very intelligent and enlightening but are starting to lean towards personal attacks.

As Timetoread so eloquantly put it - this subject matter is a lightning rod issue. Let's keep it from exploding. Thank you.

[kikismom]

 For instance she point blank asked me if these two had ever had consensual sex.  I told her yes.  She asked if they were recent exes or long ago exes.  I told her that they were an active couple until her husband showed up a couple of weeks before (in show time) and that there had been no breakup.  She asked if he'd ever been shown to try this on another woman.  I said no.  She asked if he tried this on her again.  I said no.  She asked if he had perpetrated or threatened any woman with any violence.  I said no. And did Lori consider herself, after the fact, to have been a victim of attempted rape and exhibit any fear of this man?  I

Just to complicate things (because that's what we really need here) there was a previous instance shown of Lori and Shane...she became genuinely frightened in the woods feeling that someone/something was following her, she was grabbed from behind, forced to the ground with a hand over her mouth preventing her from screaming for help...and it turns out to be Shane. If it is his idea of love play, it also appears to be hers as well (at least with him) because she stated that he scared her to death...and then removes her shirt and pants and has sex with him (which also started with a bit of smooch until he grabbed her and flipped her over face down which she enjoyed quite nicely.)

 

This is not saying he had a right to assault her in the future. I'm saying from a prosecution/defense standpoint, it get dicey if the defendant and plaintiff not only had a consensual sexual relationship but one that could lead him to believe this "rough stuff" was how to turn her on, or how to initiate contact.

 

We called the cops when we saw a man peeking in my neighbors bedroom window, then going in the back door of her house and heard screaming and furniture and the cops came and it turned out they were engaged and this was their little "hobby". The cops advised that it's their business, but a real perp could do something in the future and the neighbors wouldn't help because they'd blow it off as her sex game with her boyfriend. They advised him that it might be fun but if someday someone else accused him of something and he had reports of this taste in fun it could go bad for him.

Shane was wrong, and he shouldn't have thought it would be okay.

But...Lori was infamous for sending out mixed messages to men do that do that, stop it are you crazy, so come closer, get away from me, when are you going to do this ,oh how could you do that you monster?

I don't know what her problem was, It doesn't relieve Shane of accountability for his own actions...but damn, there have been people killed because of someone playing one lover off another and messing with both their heads.

[Timetoread]

<<do that do that, stop it are you crazy, so come closer, get away from me, when are you going to do this ,oh how could you do that you monster?>>

This could be her middle name!

 

<<there have been people killed because of someone playing one lover off another and messing with both their heads.>>

Actually someone was killed and it could have been either one of them.  Both men fighting to the death, DEFENDING HER.

 

<<it get dicey if the defendant and plaintiff not only had a consensual sexual relationship but one that could lead him to believe this "rough stuff" was how to turn her on, or how to initiate contact.>>

I have a male acquaintance who unfortunately lives in TMI territory, and he was describing sex with a particular girlfriend which involved getting on each other's nerves until angry sex is initiated.  This exercise included him "choking" her.  In quotes as the intent is not to kill or even harm her.  I was shocked, appalled, offended.  I called him a brute and wife beater and chastised that he is NEVER to put his hands on a female. EVER!!!!  He looked confused and said, "You don't like that?"  I assured that not only didn't I like it but such an act would cause me to call the police and press charges for assault.  But he assured ME that she LOVED it and is often the initiator.  Skeptical I discussed it with several female buddies.  While most were on my side, one, very sane and respectable young lady shrugged and said, "Yeah choking can be fun as long as he doesn't get carried away until you lose consciousness."  Sigh.

 

Point here is, as much as I hate to cut dudes slack, I can understand that some get confused as to where the line is.  I have no solution for this, but I imagine this makes prosecution tricky sometimes. 

Edited October 22, 2014 by Timetoread

[Nashville]

I tend to think Shane was too far gone when he killed Otis. That affected him more than he let on, more than anyone knew. He was stuck in an impossible spot, and I fully believe he did it to save Carl. I don't hate him for it. But I think he may have hated himself. I don't think he could get that image out of his mind, and having to live with a lie of that magnitude can really eat away at you. That situation probably just cemented him as more of an outsider and really just pushed him over into the dark side. He probably thought, "Well, hell, I've already shot an innocent man in cold blood, I might as well go full Shane".

I see Otis' death as the pivotal point for Shane. In the trip to the high school to retrieve medical supplies to save Carl (after accidentally being shot by Otis), Shane injured his leg. In Shane and Otis' "last dash" for the pickup, Otis could outrun the injured Shane, but didn't want to leave him behind. Shane repaid Otis by shooting him in the leg and leaving Otis as an edible distraction for the Mary Kay crew while he (Shane) escaped.

Saving Carl, revenge for the shooting, which of the two (Shane or Otis) would benefit the group most - these were all after-the-fact rationalizations. Strip these all away, and Shane sacrificed another living, non-threatening human for his own self-interest and self-preservation.

[ghoulina]

Weren't both Shane AND Otis injured at that point? I thought Otis twisted his ankle as well, when he jumped off the bleachers in the gym. So they were kind of on an even playing field, but if you take Otis's weight/health into consideration - Shane definitely had a better chance of outrunning them. I just hate the situation because I don't want to excuse Shane for shooting and innocent man and leaving him at the hands of the walkers. The first time I saw it, I was appalled. But the more I watched and saw how profound his love for Rick and Carl was, I understood. He was going to do ANYTHING he had to in order to save that boy. Doesn't mean *I* would have done the same thing, but I can't hate him for it. 

 

I harp on it over and over, but those two really should have worked out an exit plan before even getting out of the car. That negligence infuriates me every time.

Edited October 22, 2014 by ghoulina

[kikismom]

Weren't both Shane AND Otis injured at that point? I thought Otis twisted his ankle as well, when he jumped off the bleachers in the gym. So they were kind of on an even playing field, but if you take Otis's weight/health into consideration - Shane definitely had a better chance of outrunning them.

Yes, they were both limping, Otis had been injured the way you described. Remember Otis couldn't even keep up with Rick, who was carrying Carl, on the way to the farmhouse. Shane had to stay on Otis to keep going then, and there were no walkers or anything chasing them. Otis would not have outrun Shane.

 

I liked the way it was done; at the time I thought at least they didn't cop out by making it too obvious a solution "oh one guy's leg is broken and he's been shot twice". They really wanted viewers to have that gauntlet thrown in their faces---what is the right thing to do?

[RedheadZombie]

But something I had forgotten is that Herschel instinctively didn't trust him/like him, which is not a good sign.

 

While I do think that Hershel's like or dislike could be a good barometer on a person's trustworthiness, he didn't like Daryl much more than Shane.  Daryl took one of Hershel's horses without asking, tortured Randall (which I think he only did because Randall was smaller and younger than him), and went around scowling constantly.  In fact, Hershel didn't appreciate Glenn for a while.  That leaves Rick, and possibly Dale, as the only people that Hershel semi-liked (of the men).