InShane in the Membrane

[Timetoread]

I cried for Shane too. I hated that it had to be that way with Shane.

I was reading back and found something that I missed. I too cried when Rick killed Shane. I don't blame Rick at all but the situation itself was just so sad. These two loved each other so much. I think this is the best this show has done thus far dealing with real human emotion. And the actors NAILED how you can love and hate somebody at the same time - in the same space. How Rick killed Shane and then mourned his death for over a year. How Shane was certain that Rick needed to die but, if I am remembering this correctly, couldn't go through with it at the pivotal moment. And then Carl.. *moans*.

There is a scene that burned in my brain. It was the scene where Carl was looking at the deer, flanked by his father and Uncle Shane. Both men beamed with love for that boy and you had this feeling that Carl was the safest kid in the world because both of them would fight to the death with the fierceness of a grizzly if you threatened him. But then the shot rang out and Carl went down and both Rick and Shane sprinted, for what seemed like miles, to try to save him. The love on their faces was replaced with absolute terror and helplessness.

Rick and Shane were different but, like true brothers, their priorities were the same. They were of the same heart and loved with the same intensity. That one set out to kill the other. That one was killed by the other. That the boy they both loved so much put the bullet in the zombified version of Shane. Well that is the height of tragedy and it makes me cry to even think about it.

[ghoulina]

I was reading back and found something that I missed.  I too cried when Rick killed Shane.  I don't blame Rick at all but the situation itself was just so sad.  These two loved each other so much.

 

It WAS a really sad moment. The death of a friendship, a brotherhood. It really sucks that it came to that. One thing that always stuck out at me was the juxtaposition with the series premiere. When Rick was shot, it was Shane hovering over him, promising it would all be okay. But now you have Shane bleeding out, Rick hovering over him, and it won't be okay. At all.

[Turtle]

I came to The Walking Dead late, and so binge-watched seasons 1 and 2.  During that time, I always said that I'd rather be with Shane than with Rick during the zombie apocalypse, because Shane was a man who Got Things Done.  He was a realist, and he wasn't trying to pretend that anything could be the same now as it was before.  Rick was, in my opinion, unable to make a decision and unwilling to do the hard things that had to be done in the ZA.  Rick was the last person I would want "in charge" of my group!  Shane I would have trusted to do the tough things.  Now, Rick is doing the types of things I always thought Shane was capable of/ already doing.  I guess, long story short, I see Shane as being ahead of his time as far as realizing just how awful things were, and just what terrible things they were going to need to do to survive.

 

Shane was very much against looking for Sophia.

 

And I agreed 100% with that decision.  They were, at that time, a very fragile group and it was so risky to go looking for her.  I compare it to the scattering after the prison.  Maggie went looking for Glenn, because they're awful, but everyone else was focused on survival of themselves/ whoever was already with him, but looking out for signs of the others.  Because that is the smart thing to do in this situation!

 

What I find truly fascinating?  To me, this whole discussion about Shane highlights the morality questions raised by this show.  What will we do in extreme circumstances?  What *should* we do?  How do our expectations of others in our immediate society change?  How does our treatment of them change?  How much of our sense of right and wrong is shaped by circumstances? 

 

I regret coming into this thread. The misogyny and rationalization of the attempted rapist Shane turns my stomach.

 

I'm sorry you feel that way.  I see it more as an honest discussion about differing viewpoints on a very sensitive and difficult situation, as well as a discussion about how a person can have many sides to them, some admirable and some despicable, rather than being all good or all bad.  Further, consent and rape/ attempted rape are very tricky issues, even more so when you're dealing with an established relationship that has its foundation in the middle of the zombie apocalypse.  And, as noted above, Lori and Shane had an element of force in their sexual relationship, which muddies the waters even more.  None of that takes away Lori's right to say no, but it does have an impact on defining the lines *in their relationship*, not in all relationships.  Mimicked force, and even rape fantasies, are a real part of human sexuality, for both men and women, and Lori and Shane were portrayed as being excited, to some extent, by the danger around them and the adrenaline it produced.  Not justifying Shane's actions here, just pointing out that it may not be as black and white as we would like.  And discussing those nuances is not misogynistic nor rape apologist.  It's discussion.  Moreover, I think the show wanted it to be something that was confusing to viewers, to spur these types of thoughts/ conversations.  And that's part of what I love about the show - the forcing us to consider these moral lines and ambiguities.  

[ghoulina]

I think looking for Sophia was the right thing to do, and I don't think you can compare it to the groups being scattered after the fall of the prison. On the farm, the group was entirely together. They had a base, and they had a map, and they would go out in teams, and then come back. It wasn't just some aimless wandering. Also, I'm pretty sure every single person except Shane wanted to look for her. And with Carl laid up, they weren't going anywhere anyway. But it was more of a morale thing - it meant something to the group to try and find her. If they had just took off, without knowing, a lot of the group might have been so down they wouldn't have been making wise decisions. It's one thing to lose an adult member of your group, but it's another to lose a child.

 

I agree that Shane was strong and brave and could get things done (MOST things), but I just still don't think he'd make a good leader because he didn't really give a fuck about anyone but himself, and Lori and Carl. To me, he saw the rest of the group as just cogs that could keep the group going...for the larger purpose of keeping Lori and Carl safe. But I don't think he genuinely cared about their wants and needs. 

[Oinky Boinky]

circumstance and context matters.  For instance she point blank asked me if these two had ever had consensual sex.  I told her yes.  She asked if they were recent exes or long ago exes.  I told her that they were an active couple until her husband showed up a couple of weeks before (in show time) and that there had been no breakup.  She asked if he'd ever been shown to try this on another woman.  I said no.  She asked if he tried this on her again.  I said no.  She asked if he had perpetrated or threatened any woman with any violence.  I said no. And did Lori consider herself, after the fact, to have been a victim of attempted rape and exhibit any fear of this man?  I told her no and added that Lori is married to a man who would have killed him on the spot if she had reported it to him.  "So she protected him?"  Yes, I answered. 

The final question I asked her was:  "So do you think I am viewing this wrong and am apologetic to rape?" 

 

Not going to quote your lengthy post Timetoread but thanks for that.

 

I was amazed when I first saw 'rapist' being attached to Shane.  I really was in conflict as to how to categorize this and your legal discussion with your friend really helped me. 

 

From the original viewing it never did imprint as anything but a very drunk man who had priveleges to put his hands on this woman very recently and now didn't. 

 

Channel 167 has started showing TWD and ironically this was the episode aired.  I again thought this is a very drunk, grabby guy.  Also of note - they were in the CDC and Rick was close to hand.  There was no way this was ever going to be rape OR consensual sex.

 

Also what I saw that puts this in another light is the previous episode where Lori is in the woods by herself and Shane tries to scare her and then ends up on the ground with her.  They looked like a couple who would play catch me, catch me. 

 

As you said context and the history of the couple is important. If you ever really cared about a person you would have some compassion for what they are going through and you might have to explain the new rules more than once.  

[Turtle]

I just still don't think he'd make a good leader because he didn't really give a fuck about anyone but himself, and Lori and Carl.​

 

 

On this we might agree, actually!  I guess my feelings about Shane are more about who I would want on MY side, looking out for ME, in the zombie apocalypse, and not necessarily who I would want to lead a larger group.  For the purpose of helping to keep me (and my theoretical child) safe, I think Shane was a better choice than early-seasons Rick.  But I can see how Shane would not be a great group leader because of the very traits that would make me want him protecting me.  

[raven]

 

I think looking for Sophia was the right thing to do, and I don't think you can compare it to the groups being scattered after the fall of the prison.

I agree and I think it helped hold the group together.  As I remember it the one who complained about it the most was Shane.  Plus as you say the group had entrenched itself on Hershel's farm.  Daryl kept up the search the longest, but no one was forcing him to.  

 

 

Channel 167 has started showing TWD and ironically this was the episode aired.  I again thought this is a very drunk, grabby guy.  Also of note - they were in the CDC and Rick was close to hand.  There was no way this was ever going to be rape OR consensual sex.

I'm sure women unwantedly groped by drunk grabby guys don't think it's OK for any reason, never mind if  their significant other is close at hand.  I also don't think we can extrapolate from one encounter in the woods that that was the norm for Shane and Lori, and I don't think it matters anyway, regardless of one person's saying it is.  They were not together anymore, she had made it clear she was back with Rick now.  So that just leaves "well he was drunk" which is a pretty old excuse.  She clearly wasn't interested in Shane groping her at the CDC.  Maybe if he gets too grope-y when he drinks then he shouldn't drink?  Lori didn't tell Rick afterwards because she didn't want bloodshed. doesn't mean she approved of it or was thinking boys will be boys or whatever.    

 

 

If you ever really cared about a person you would have some compassion for what they are going through and you might have to explain the new rules more than once.

I don't see why explaining the rules is necessary for adults who are able to control themselves, or why Lori should show compassion to Shane for drunkenly groping her.  I'm no Lori fan but doesn't she deserve compassion?  Her world ended too, she thought Rick was dead, aligned herself with Shane, Rick shows up.  Shane wasn't the only one going through crap but he is the only one deserving of compassion in this situation?  I don't buy it.

 

I don't think Shane was the devil but he was a bully (was it really necessary to hold Jim down and tie him up for digging holes in the ground? though really everyone overreacted to that, Shane got physical though) and my guess is he only would've gotten worse over time without someone like Rick keeping him in check; you can see that when Rick returns, Shane suppresses some actions and feelings.  There's a difference between doing what is necessary to protect yourself and your family and doing things to keep others beaten down.  

 

That's one of the things the show tries to show us (not always well) - is it OK to become Terminus as long as you are surviving?  Did Carol kill Karen and David because she was only concerned for the group or because she was frustrated that no one was doing anything?  Shane's actions were really the beginning of lots of these questions being asked.

 

The comparisons with Rick are inevitable; I've always thought Rick always had it in him to do what he felt was necessary to protect his family while Shane clearly didn't think so.  Another difference being I think Rick extends family beyond immediate, though that's never really been put to the test.  It's a good thing to have people you can trust and consider family around you, especially if you have children.  I don't know if Shane was capable of bringing that out in people, something I think Rick can do.

Edited October 24, 2014 by raven

[GodsBeloved]

I'm sure women unwantedly groped by drunk grabby guys don't think it's OK for any reason, never mind if  their significant other is close at hand.  I also don't think we can extrapolate from one encounter in the woods that that was the norm for Shane and Lori, and I don't think it matters anyway, regardless of one person's saying it is.  They were not together anymore, she had made it clear she was back with Rick now.  So that just leaves "well he was drunk" which is a pretty old excuse.  She clearly wasn't interested in Shane groping her at the CDC.  Maybe if he gets too grope-y when he drinks then he shouldn't drink?  Lori didn't tell Rick afterwards because she didn't want bloodshed. doesn't mean she approved of it or was thinking boys will be boys or whatever.    

 

I don't see why explaining the rules is necessary for adults who are able to control themselves, or why Lori should show compassion to Shane for drunkenly groping her.  I'm no Lori fan but doesn't she deserve compassion?  Her world ended too, she thought Rick was dead, aligned herself with Shane, Rick shows up.  Shane wasn't the only one going through crap but he is the only one deserving of compassion in this situation?  I don't buy it.

 

Regarding the scene in the woods, my impression was Lori was startled by Shane but I didn't think that was their foreplay. I definitely didn't see the encounter at the CDC as even possibly being "their way". I may go back and look at the two scenes back to back to see Lori's reactions.

 

I definitely agree that explainig the rules was unnecessary. At that point, Lori had made things pretty clear to Shane. He couldn't have been that obtuse.

[Timetoread]

but I just still don't think he'd make a good leader because he didn't really give a fuck about anyone but himself, and Lori and Carl. To me, he saw the rest of the group as just cogs that could keep the group going...for the larger purpose of keeping Lori and Carl safe. But I don't think he genuinely cared about their wants and needs.

He DID want to search for Sophia and DID search for Sophia - until the search for Sophia became an exercise in futility - a dangerous one. Rick wanted to look endlessly because Rick felt responsible for the fact that she was missing in the first place. Shane wanted to stop the search to SAVE OTHERS. But when Sophia came out the barn, he was as shocked and upset as everybody else there. And when Andrea wanted to learn how to shoot, he taught her because she wanted it (and this was before they started screwing). And even though he was angry, he did beat Ed up because Ed was getting out of line with the women. And when Dale wanted to kill him, he let that slide - and I found that VERY offensive. If Shane was such an antisocial bully, then why put up with those people at all? Lori and Carl were already off the table. Rick had won the day and apparently nobody liked him any way. So what did he get out of it? What was there to get?

I'm sure women unwantedly groped by drunk grabby guys don't think it's OK for any reason, never mind if their significant other is close at hand.

What person or post EVER said it was ok? NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON HAS SAID THIS WAS OK. My question is, why isn't any of this hate and insult being lobbied at Lori for not reporting rape? For fear of bloodshed? She after all was the one to commission her husband to kill Shane anyway, so why not earlier when he supposedly raped her? And why ask her rapist to stay - wouldn't that make her guilty of rape apology and in fact complicit to harboring a known rapist thereby putting every woman and child in that camp in mortal danger? Why is Lori blameless? Why is Sheriff Rick blameless in exposing all those helpless, innocent people to a rapist/murderer/psychopath? Isn't he supposed to protect people?

I'm no Lori fan but doesn't she deserve compassion? Her world ended too, she thought Rick was dead, aligned herself with Shane, Rick shows up. Shane wasn't the only one going through crap but he is the only one deserving of compassion in this situation?

Compassion for what? She got her husband back. She had her son. She had the protection of the group. She was the only one there getting laid on the regular. She didn't get hurt or raped by the evil, marauding, Satanic, rapist, Shane. So what are we supposed to feel so sorry for her for?

[JBody]

Nope. He knew the score, give me a break. He just wanted things to go back to the way they were.  He was fixing to have a “hunting accident” eliminate Rick but Dale's pop eyes stared him down. That didn't pan out, so he thought he could cuckold Rick. That CDC scene with Lori really walks the line.  A lot of people see it as attempted rape.  At the time I thought so.  I watched it again and now I know it’s coming, maybe it’s not as shocking, but it's definitely assault.  She told him way before that to leave her alone.  She told him that right up to and including when forced his hands and the rest of himself between her legs.  She had to scratch flesh off his cheek to get him to back the hell off and get out.  I never liked Lori but Shane was reprehensible at times. Always dogging Rick's steps, undermining him at every turn because Shane was supposed to be the alpha dog. BUT there were still glimpses of the old partnership and camaraderie.  Remember they were walking through the woods and Rick wanted Shane to regale him with his old high school stud stories like he used to, and Shane tried, but his heart wasn't in it: all those people are dead, man. You just know Rick surviving was the worst thing to happen to Shane.  Still, after all that, I miss the character. He had some killer lines. And I really liked Jon Bernthal. He made his antagonist really more likeable than he should have been.

[Oinky Boinky]

Regarding the first question...

 

Did Lori contribute to his decent into becoming InShane?

 

What was the timeline:

 

How long after Rick was thought to be dead did Lori and Shane hook up?

 

How long were Lori and Shane together so how long was it that Shane was thinking Lori really cared for and maybe loved him?

 

We know she pushed him away immediately- he was persona non grata as soon as Rick came back with no acknowledgement that Shane was anything special to her. 

 

Shane loved Rick, loved Lori, was ready to be father to Carl- he was very, very important to them and wham he is outside looking in.  And BTW your baby isn't going to be yours either. 

 

We know people can go a little nutty when they are dumped.

 

He got dumped by Rick, Lori and Carl and then slowly was seeing himself as apart from everyone. 

 

I think how Lori handled things totally started him on the way down.  Given a bit of time I am sure he would have pulled things back together.

[ghoulina]

He DID want to search for Sophia and DID search for Sophia - until the search for Sophia became an exercise in futility - a dangerous one.  Rick wanted to look endlessly because Rick felt responsible for the fact that she was missing in the first place. Shane wanted to stop the search to SAVE OTHERS.  But when Sophia came out the barn, he was as shocked and upset as everybody else there.  And when Andrea wanted to learn how to shoot, he taught her because she wanted it (and this was before they started screwing). And even though he was angry, he did beat Ed up because Ed was getting out of line with the women.  And when Dale wanted to kill him, he let that slide - and I found that VERY offensive.  If Shane was such an antisocial bully, then why put up with those people at all?  Lori and Carl were already off the table.  Rick had won the day and apparently nobody liked him any way.  So what did he get out of it?  What was there to get?

 

They were really only at the farm, for what? A week? Ten days? And there were several days after the barn reveal before the whole place was engulfed with walkers and fire. So I didn't think Rick was searching endlessly. You have to remember, Daryl was the only one looking at the end anyway - by that point they were trying to stay at the farm, because they thought it would be a safe place to ride out the winter (especially with Lori being pregnant). What would be the big deal if people wanted to search the area longer, if they're already there? When Daryl found that doll, some hope was renewed. It wasn't like they were searching for months. 

 

And I don't think Shane wanted to give up because it would save others (I'm not sure how it would). I think he wanted to give up because he truly did think she was dead, and didn't really care if others still had hope she was alive. Also, I think he liked anything that would prove Rick as an inept leader, and hopefully curry favor with Lori. 

 

He didn't just teach Andrea to shoot, he was teaching everyone to shoot. Shane was effective in that. Although, as I said before, I feel his motivation was more about making the group that essentially protects Lori and Carl (and himself) a well oiled machine, more than trying to actually make members of the group happy. 

 

I didn't find if offensive that Dale wanted to kill Shane, because he had SEEN Shane put sights on his best friend, the leader of the group, displaying that HE wanted to kill Rick. Dale did not trust Shane after that. Period. 

 

And I still believe Shane stuck around for Lori and Carl. Yes, Rick was back and Lori was very much with him. But Shane was also plotting to kill Rick. I feel badly for Shane, because he had clearly crossed the line into crazytown. I think he really thought if Rick would just DIE ALREADY! he'd have his woman and child back, and all would be right with the world. 

[raven]

 

What person or post EVER said it was ok?  NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON HAS SAID THIS WAS OK.

There's a lot of "yeah buts" and justifications for it.  "Oh well, they had a consensual relationship once" "Oh well, looks like they liked it rough" etc. "Oh well he was drunk and needs the new rules explained". You yourself posted it as a hypothetical that it might not be prosecuted, there are grey areas.  That is justification IMO.

 

 

Compassion for what?   She got her husband back.

My post was in direct comment to another saying "there should be compassion for someone you've been in a relationship with" meaning to me that Lori should have had compassion for Shane.  My response was that the reverse is also true.  Did I personally care about Lori?  No, my discussion is in the context of the show and how the characters feel about each other.  

 

 

Why is Lori blameless?

I don't hold Lori responsible for Shane's actions so I'm not sure what you mean here.  Should she have told Rick?  Yeah probably and the fact that she didn't doesn't really mean anything when assessing what he did, and taking it as a piece of his personality. She acted like an idiot, asking him to stay and then telling Rick he was dangerous.  So?  Maybe she wanted as many alpha males around as possible.  It was probably his behavior at the CDC that got her wondering how far Shane would go.  

 

People get dumped for exes all the time, yet Shane is supposed to be excused his behavior because he got dumped?  The only reason he was sympathetic to me at all is because of how he behaved with Carl and because of Jon B's performance.

 

 

Why is Sheriff Rick blameless in exposing all those helpless, innocent people to a rapist/murderer/psychopath?  Isn't he supposed to protect people?

What does this have to do with Shane's behavior?  Sorry, but bringing up what you think are someone else's failings doesn't make Shane's actions excusable.

 

I carefully re-read my post and didn't call Shane a rapist, murderer or psychopath.  I called him a bully and responded to a post that in my opinion was attempting to excuse his actions.

[Timetoread]

I feel badly for Shane..

Why? I'm just curious, because the man you described was a soulless monster and utterly worthless.

[ghoulina]

Why?  I'm just curious, because the man you described was a soulless monster and utterly worthless.

 

Well, I didn't use those exact words, so I'm not sure where you got that from. But I definitely wouldn't describe him that way. Shane was a complex character. But I'm pretty sure I've said before that I found pre-ZA Shane to be a bit of a braggard, a macho man, etc. - but probably a pretty nice guy. It's clear he dearly loved Rick and his family, and I (personally) don't think he ever had any intentions on Lori before the turn. 

 

I don't hate Lori or Shane for getting together after they thought Rick was dead. Yea, I know it was quick - but in the ZA world everything moves quick. They were looking for comfort, protection, acceptance, distraction - whatever the case may be, I get it. But when Rick came back it became an impossible situation. From my point of view, Shane fell for Lori a lot harder than she fell for him. She never stopped loving Rick. So while it got confusing, she did have this other person to go back to. Shane didn't have that. 

 

I felt badly for him because I know that must have been torture - living with this happy little family, that you only got a taste of for a short while, and it was yanked away from you. I felt badly for him because he and Rick were best friends and the madness of the situation drove him to want to murder his best friend. There are no black and whites for me with this storyline. There's good and bad in all three of these characters, but unfortunately Shane was the one that went crazy to the point of no return. 

[Timetoread]

There's a lot of "yeah buts" and justifications for it. "Oh well, they had a consensual relationship once" "Oh well, looks like they liked it rough" etc. "Oh well he was drunk and needs the new rules explained". You yourself posted it as a hypothetical that it might not be prosecuted, there are grey areas. That is justification IMO

What I posted was my opinion. I did not consider his offense "attempted rape" and I still don't, no matter how much holier than thou sniping I receive about it. The "hypothetical" that it might not be prosecuted was delivered by a prosecutor that I consulted on the matter - as I am fortunate enough to have access to a couple.

Let's clarify our terms shall we. An OPINION is simply what somebody believes. It can be strongly held but is not, by virtue of existence, proof of anything. JUSTIFICATION is the act of trying to free something or someone from blame or show that there is validity as to why something seemingly improper was done. In this convo here's the diff: My OPINION is that Shane did not commit the crime of attempted rape, neither in action nor in intent, so that labeling him as such is unfounded and unfair. Assault, yes. Attempted rape, no. I however have not, not in a single solitary comment, JUSTIFIED his actions as to imply that there was no fault and no blame in what he did. Mitigations like "drunk, heartsick, used to the rough stuff, blah blah, blah" speak to motive but such motives don't justify such an action. My OPINION is that I understood why he did it, but what he did was wrong and he got he what he deserved.

People get dumped for exes all the time, yet Shane is supposed to be excused his behavior because he got dumped?

Sorry, but bringing up what you think are someone else's failings doesn't make Shane's actions excusable.

I called him a bully and responded to a post that in my opinion was attempting to excuse his actions.

In this context EXCUSE is close enough in meaning to be a synonym for JUSTIFY. Again, I do not, have not, and will not even attempt to EXCUSE or JUSTIFY his actions because my OPINION is that his actions are inexcusable. I think the word we are all choking on is FORGIVE. And yes, the greater argument I am making is that his inexcusable actions are ultimately FORGIVABLE because a) she was not hurt and b) he was remorseful and did not show intent to repeat this behavior. Forgiveness is subject to OPINON and that is mine.

I don't hold Lori responsible for Shane's actions so I'm not sure what you mean here.

What I mean here is to point out the hypocrisy of chastising and judging board members for being willing to allow the one time INEXCUSABLE action to stay where it lay (basically) as in reproach him, but we can move forward from here but then defend Lori for doing the same. And further the bewilderment that I find when in the same conversation as Shane is described as a rapist, a murderer, a man who had no humanity, no feeling for humanity, no good intentions EVER, would also be credited for being "good with Carl" and lovingly "Rick's brother." Such a person should not be allowed access to any child and should not be friend material for anybody, especially someone as sainted as Rick Grimes.

[kikismom]

 

This is not saying he had a right to assault her in the future. I'm saying from a prosecution/defense standpoint, it get dicey if the defendant and plaintiff not only had a consensual sexual relationship but one that could lead him to believe this "rough stuff" was how to turn her on, or how to initiate contact.

 

Shane was wrong, and he shouldn't have thought it would be okay.

 

 

 

There's a lot of "yeah buts" and justifications for it.  "Oh well, they had a consensual relationship once" "Oh well, looks like they liked it rough" etc. "Oh well he was drunk and needs the new rules explained". You yourself posted it as a hypothetical that it might not be prosecuted, there are grey areas.

 

I may be someone whose post was offensive. If it was, I will clarify that I'm not really feeling that it should be one person who is only partially kindasorta blamed.

It should be two people whose choices played a part.. One seriously wrong and should be blamed, and another one wrong for instigating and should be doing some self-examination (and no I don't mean the kind you do for lumps.)

 

If you have a store and at the end of the day you put the till full of money on the counter, in view from the uncovered window, leave the door unlocked and even partly open----the next morning you are still a robbery victim. The person who took the money is still a thief. In an ideal world, people wouldn't steal no matter how easy it was. "But" this is not an ideal world. It is unfair that you have change in order to have a chance against criminals, "but" that is the real world.

No woman (or man or child) should be assaulted. Shouldn't,  yet in the real world they will. And the perpetrator is guilty under any circumstances. However it is realistic to say if you want to lower your odds, make certain choices. Choices that may infringe on your right to expression? Life in the real world is a series of trade-offs.

 

I did say Shane was wrong; I also said "buts" ...because I do believe it is important to consider everybody's part in the huge mess of Shane/Lori/RIck---it was all too interconnected to keep each individual purely separate. IMO. YMMV.

[Timetoread]

Well, I didn't use those exact words, so I'm not sure where you got that from. But I definitely wouldn't describe him that way. Shane was a complex character. But I'm pretty sure I've said before that I found pre-ZA Shane to be a bit of a braggard, a macho man, etc. - but probably a pretty nice guy.

You're right, those weren't your exact words. Here are your exact words -

I think he wanted to give up because he truly did think she was dead, and didn't really care if others still had hope she was alive. Also, I think he liked anything that would prove Rick as an inept leader, and hopefully curry favor with Lori.

I feel his motivation was more about making the group that essentially protects Lori and Carl (and himself) a well oiled machine, more than trying to actually make members of the group happy.

but I just still don't think he'd make a good leader because he didn't really give a fuck about anyone but himself, and Lori and Carl.

Where do you see a "nice" guy in those descriptions? Or even a "complex" character - that sounds pretty one-dimensional and one tracked to me. I'd think that such a man deserves whatever bad that happens to him and I just was questioning why anyone would feel sorry for such a louse.

[raven]

 

And yes, the greater argument I am making is that his inexcusable actions are ultimately FORGIVABLE because a) she was not hurt and b) he was remorseful and did not show intent to repeat this behavior.  Just my OPINON.

 

What I mean here is to point out the hypocrisy of chastising and judging board members for being willing to allow the one time INEXCUSABLE action stay where it lay (basically) but then defend Lori for taking the same action.  And further the bewilderment that I find when in the same conversation as Shane is described as a rapist, a murderer, a man who had no humanity, no feeling for humanity, no good intentions EVER, would also be credited for being "good with Carl" and lovingly "Rick's brother."  Such a person should not be allowed access to any child and should not be friend material for anybody, especially someone as sainted as Rick Grimes.

I'm not chastising or judging but stating my own opinion (should I capitalize that? will that make it matter more?) about what we're shown as a pattern of behavior for a fictional character.  I'll repeat again, for the final time because this argument is getting circular, that I did not say Shane was a rapist, murderer, had no humanity, so if you are going to quote me, than please don't call me out for things I didn't say.  I've also never called Rick a saint; again, you are distracting from the point of discussing Shane.

 

I also never said he actions were unforgivable but I stand by my point that others are trying to excuse it, which is what I was responding to.  It's fine that your prosecutor friend thinks this wouldn't be prosecuted; one person's professional opinion (should I capitalize?) isn't the be all and end all.

 

Sorry Timetoread, you've said yourself you've gotten into heated arguments over this and it started off as an interesting talk but now you're judging me and I don't appreciate being called a hypocrite.  It's supposed to be a talk about a fictional character who actually doesn't have any motivations beyond what the writers give him.

 

I'm also absolutely sure that if Lori wasn't as hated as she is, there would be a lot less "yeah buts".

[Timetoread]

(should I capitalize that? will that make it matter more?)

(should I capitalize?)

Yes. And yes.

It's fine that your prosecutor friend thinks this wouldn't be prosecuted; one person's professional opinion (should I capitalize?) isn't the be all and end all.

Never posted it as such. But it is something.

but now you're judging me and I don't appreciate being called a hypocrite.

I hear you. I don't take very kindly to being called a person who justifies rape.

Tell you what, we can agree to disagree on this. Are you cool with that?

[raven]

 

Tell you what, we can agree to disagree on this.  Are you cool with that?

I am!

To lighten the mood, I remember,, when Shane was shirtless, wondering when he had time to go to the gym - Jon B is a VERY well built guy :)  and (forgive me, I'll repeat myself one more time, must be the cold medicine) a very good actor.

[JBody]

Shane was never meant to be a "good" guy but Bernthal knocked it out of the park and they kept the character around a lot longer than they intended. He made Shane complex. He made the audience have some sympathy for someone who wasn't likeable at all as written in the GN. Great work.

[Timetoread]

when Shane was shirtless, wondering when he had time to go to the gym - Jon B is a VERY well built guy :)

Well kumbayah sister! Jon B (even with his unfortunate broken nose) is a hunka hunka!

[HalcyonDays]

Knock it off, people. You have agreed to disagree. Let it be and politely move on.

[RedheadZombie]

I think it's possible to like both Rick and Shane.  I think they had the most compelling relationship on the show.  It never rang true to me that he would be willing to kill Rick to get Lori and Carl.  I think his true slide into insanity was shooting Otis.  I think that act was confusing to the audience, because the character was an older fat man, and it makes Shane shooting him seem senseless (not that it's excusable).  Even injured, Shane would have outrun Otis.  Anyway, that caused the descent into madness.  I think it was helped along by the fact that along with losing Lori and Carl, he kind of lost Rick as well.   Their friendship could never be the same.

 

I agree that JB made the character much more likeable than even the writers predicted.  Just the scenes with him scrambling trying to protect comatose Rick were touching.  I think one of the best scenes was when they drove out to drop off Randall.  When Shane was trapped in the school bus and watched Rick drive off without him.  The look on Shane's face when he realized Rick came back for him - just really brought tears to my eyes.  It almost seemed to matter more that Rick had not abandoned him, than it did that he wasn't going to die.

 

Ultimately, I think Shane was too impetuous, alpha, and angry to truly adjust to the changed world.  His uniform used to bring respect, and his job brought satisfaction - not so much in the ZA.  It took Rick a long time to figure out the world too, but he was disadvantaged by the fact that he slept through everything.  It says something (I haven't quite figured out what) that ultimately - Shane couldn't kill his best friend, yet Rick could.

[AngelaHunter]

I hesitate to get into this, but my take on the Shane/Lori thing was Shane being terribly hurt, drunk and very desperate to get back what he saw as HIS new family and that made him act totally inappropriately. Getting the cold shoulder from Lori the minute Rick appeared had to be very painful. I'm sure we've all been dumped and know that kind of pain and maybe acted a little over the top ourselves

 

I was not a fan of either of these people at ALL, so that's my impartial view of the whole thing, FWLIW.

 

 

[editorgrrl]

From the "Crossed" episode thread:

The most terrifying villain on the show was Shane, because he wasn't even truly a villain, he was a very disturbed man we'd seen fall apart over the course of two seasons. We saw him slowly decay until he seemed more like a walker in life than in death. We could understand him and his motivations. And that was frightening, because he was a part of us. He was also the villain death with the most consequences (by far), because when he died, a huge part of Rick went with him, never to return.

 

The group's only true enemy is itself. And if they ever want to have a formidable villain again I think it has to come from the group. 

[nodorothyparker]

Reading back over this last page of comments, I find myself wondering am I the only person who didn't think Shane ever really intended to pull the trigger when he had Rick in his sights?  Maybe I need to go back and rewatch that particular scene, but I could swear he had him sighted but then lowered the gun before he ever realized Dale was even standing there.  Like he thought about it but knew he couldn't actually do it.  Rick surviving was both the very best and very worst thing to happen to Shane because he truly did love him, but he also loved having Rick's family as his own.  That was what made Shane such a great character and a great tragedy.

 

I can't think about this scene without then thinking of one from season two after they've made their desperate run to Herschel's farm with wounded Carl.  They're waiting on Lori to get there and Shane wipes Carl's blood from Rick's face and acts as his caretaker.  It's such an intimate tender moment that you rarely see on TV between two grown men.  If I hadn't fully believed the depth of the Rick-Shane relationship up to that point, I did at that moment.

[Timetoread]

Reading back over this last page of comments, I find myself wondering am I the only person who didn't think Shane ever really intended to pull the trigger when he had Rick in his sights?  Maybe I need to go back and rewatch that particular scene, but I could swear he had him sighted but then lowered the gun before he ever realized Dale was even standing there.  Like he thought about it but knew he couldn't actually do it.  Rick surviving was both the very best and very worst thing to happen to Shane because he truly did love him, but he also loved having Rick's family as his own.  That was what made Shane such a great character and a great tragedy.

 

I can't think about this scene without then thinking of one from season two after they've made their desperate run to Herschel's farm with wounded Carl.  They're waiting on Lori to get there and Shane wipes Carl's blood from Rick's face and acts as his caretaker.  It's such an intimate tender moment that you rarely see on TV between two grown men.  If I hadn't fully believed the depth of the Rick-Shane relationship up to that point, I did at that moment.

 

Lovely post!  I never for a second - even in my first viewing - believed that Shane would have taken that shot.  To me it was just a visual manifestation of the war going on inside of him of how, as you put it so well, Rick's being alive was the best and worst thing that ever happened to him.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Timetoread

[Timetoread]

That post gave me another thought.  This time about Lori.  I think Lori both loved and hated being fought over by these two men.  Two men who were choosing her over the other.  I imagine that produced a kind of rush and feeling of protection and desirableness and POWER.  I blame her for this but I understand it too.  However I think she underestimated the strength of the feelings that were involved and she never really processed that "winning" meant that one had to die.  When Rick told her that he'd killed Shane because Shane was going to kill him, I've always felt that she didn't recoil from Rick so much as get slapped in the face with the reality of this situation that she caused.  If Rick had died and Shane had lived, I believe her response would have been the same.  I hated the character Lori, but I credit the actress for her entire Season 3 performance up to and including her death.  Her contrition was palpable.  She was so, so sorry.  Sorry for taking up with Shane without being sure that Rick was dead.  Sorry for not mitigating that situation with more finesse and less self-interest.  But most of all sorry for what she had taken from her husband.  As Pete Martell posted in the other thread - part of Rick died with Shane.  I don't think she ever wanted or expected Rick to forgive her but I think she wanted him to make peace with his loss - put it on her so he didn't carry it on himself.  I also think she considered her own death payment in full and was SURE of the paternity of that baby.  The universe is made right that Rick is left to nurture what is left of Shane in this world - Judith.

[JBody]

I kinda wish they'd have some waaay back flashbacks so Jon Bernthal could come back for a moment or two. I just thought of another reason for Shane's appeal: he did, at times, function as the snark mouthpiece for the audience.

[editorgrrl]

From the Talking Dead thread. It's all good, but I've bolded the part that's pure gold IMO:

 

I think there's a lot of similarities [between Rick & Shane], but the big difference is that Rick is willing to let others in, even now. As soon as he viewed Noah as one of his people Rick wasn't going to let him go (in a good way).

I'm sure there's also the probability that Shane would sacrifice his own extended group to save his inner group (Lori, Carl, Judith). I can't ever see Rick doing that, he couldn't even hand over Michonne back in S3.

 

There was no group to Shane. It was Lori, Carl, Lori's baby-to-be, on a good day Rick, and then "the rest," like the Gilligan's Island credits. I always think back to that scene where Rick was going to put Dale out of his misery, and Daryl, who'd already seen Rick have that type of duty on his conscience, took the gun into his own hands. Shane, who should have had that type of role, stood in the background. It spoke volumes. 

 

To be fair to Shane, I don't think any of the group really saw themselves as much of a group for the first two seasons. It was people who ran into each other or met each other and were together through no other option. There was no real concept of a core "group" until Rick put his foot down at the end of season 2. 

 

I think some people just hear the name "Shane" and think tough decisions, or being realistic, and the rest slips by. Carol was the new Shane. Rick is the new Shane. Shane was a lot more than that, really.

 

[RedheadZombie]

I'm watching Cherokee Rose - the episode that follows Shane sacrificing Otis.  It's interesting.  Andrea is talking to Shane about target practice, etc.   Shane explains that shooting a paper target is different than shooting a moving target.  He also says that instead of things slowing down in that instant, they speed up.  Adrenaline will cripple you if you let it, and you have to use your instinct.  "You've gotta rule it out, because somebody's going to die.  And you'd better hope that you're the one that's making that decision."  Andrea ask how, and Shane responds, "Turn off a switch ........ you don't think you act."  Because others are counting on you - your partner, your friend.  "But when you get it done, you have to forget it.  I guess I haven't quite got that last part down yet."  I think he's obviously talking about shooting Otis, and he is very conflicted.

 

And some props to Jon Bernthal - he joined with the Animal Farm Foundation, on their campaign, The Majority Project.  The goal is to raise awareness and advocate for pit bulls.  Bernthal has two pits who are present in the video, along with one of his sons, "Billy the Kid".

 

Pit bull dog owners are sometimes victim to negative stereotypes that have nothing to do with how much they love and care for their dog. The laws and policies that target dog owners based on their dogs breed and appearance won’t make communities safer. Holding all reckless dog owners responsible will.

 

I love him for this.  I have a bully breed (Am. Staff) and the targeting and ostracization of the breed via bans - which require even newborn pit bulls to be euthanized - outrage me.  Pit bulls need (and deserve) as much advocacy as they can get.

Edited February 2, 2015 by RedheadZombie

[Nashville]

Taken from the S7Ep16 thread:

On 4/21/2017 at 5:27 PM, Nashville said:

Shane wasn't wicked, just weak and twisted - twisted by:

• The horror of the ZA: seeing every semblance of normality ripped to shreds, seeing survival as requiring rejections of previously inviolate rules of human behavior, and experiencing self-loathing at the ease with which he accepts such abdications of societal rules.
• Guilt: guilt at abandoning Rick in the hospital, guilt at turning his sworn-brother duty to protect Rick's family into a usurpation of Rick's role as Lori's lover and Carl's father, guilt over cowardly sacrificing Otis' life to save his own.

I'd guess that Shane's jealousy of Rick for Rick's wife and son predated the ZA, but pre-ZA Shane would have never acted on those feelings.  Pre-ZA Shane would have been the best Uncle Shane a Carl ever had, and very Southern-gentleman courteous to Lori - other than the occasional feigned-drunk kiss or grope at the annual Christmas party, of course.  And maybe New Years.  And maybe 4th of July.  And pre-ZA Shane would have eventually married someone either identical to - or opposite from - Lori in every way, and they would be divorced within two years because every day after the honeymoon Shane's unlucky bride would sense in Shane a growing dissatisfaction he would never admit to himself, much less discuss with her or anybody else.  

In Shane i see an incredibly strong resemblance to Terminus' Martin.  Absent the ZA, both would have been neighbors you'd be glad to invite over to a cookout or to watch the Sunday football game, and they would never forget to bring some beer.  They'd work side-by-side with you all day in the hot Saturday summer sun rebuilding your deck.  They'd be "good all-around guys" to anybody who gave it a thought - and under their veneer of civility would be a dark personality which would have zero problem with killing a friend or choking a baby if it served their interests.  Shane as a villain is evil with a small "e".

 

10 hours ago, ShadowSixx said:

I believe that Lori added on to his jealousy and his fall into the abyss of insanity. The minute she found out that Rick was alive she gets upset with Shane (even though Shane figured him dead due to what was going on at the hospital with those men walking into the hospital and killing people) and told Shane to stay away from her and Carl. When Shane dismissed Carl, Lori gets upset with Shane for doing that, even though Shane pointed out that he's doing what she's asking of him. Plus Shane was the leader and then Rick comes along and he's basically dethroned as the leader for the group and when he finds out that Lori is pregnant he goes to talk to her about it and Lori tells him no matter what Rick will be the father and Shane will not be a part of Judith's life whatsoever, even if Shane is the father. I think that is the straw that broke Shane's back.

His plans of finally having a family just went down the drain. At that point Shane had nobody, the group no longer trusted him, Rick, Carl, Lori, & Judith were gonna be a family and Shane served no purpose for anyone anymore. He had nothing else to live for so he tried to take it all back by getting rid of Rick. If Shane was alive I believe he would be just like Rick is today. Rick & Shane are kind of one in the same except I do believe that Shane more than likely would have turned Michonne over to the Governor.

Lori was definitely a primary agitating factor to Shane - but this (bolded above), I think, was Shane's tipping point. 

Pre-ZA Shane would no doubt have acquiesced to living the rest of his life as a pale shadow mirror of Rick's; Shane wouldn't have been happy about it, but I doubt he would have significantly challenged such a course of destiny either.  I don't think Shane ever had any driving course to his life, any personal goal or destiny which was his and his alone - and Shane was on some level aware of this lack. 

This lack was the heart of the dichotomy of Shane's pre-ZA relationship with Rick.  Shane and Rick were the closest of friends, and maybe even loved each other as brothers.  Shane also hated and envied Rick on a certain level, though.  Rocky though it may have been, Rick had set his sights on and attained a personal goal: marriage and a family.  Shane both hated Rick's visualization of a goal (something which had eluded Shane), while simultaneously envying Rick's attainment of same.  Lacking any personal drive for a goal of his own, Shane adopted Rick's goals - using Rick's life as a model for what a desirable life should resemble.  This is why I stated earlier Shane would always be dissatisfied with his own life; no matter how close he came to modeling Rick's life, Shane's would always be an imitation of the "real thing".

I doubt all this was even necessarily a factor when Shane deserted comatose Rick in the hospital (I expect THAT was nothing more than a demonstration of the same cowardice Shane displayed when he shot Otis to save himself), but this is why Shane was so happy immediately post-ZA; Shane had attained what was in his mind the "perfect life" - one which he'd never really expected to have.  Which is why Shane's hate for Rick blossomed from latent to active when Rick returned and took it all away from Shane - having something then losing it is worse than never having it at all, especially when it remains in your sight day after day after day....

[smorbie]

On 10/23/2014 at 4:55 PM, Timetoread said:

I was reading back and found something that I missed. I too cried when Rick killed Shane. I don't blame Rick at all but the situation itself was just so sad. These two loved each other so much. I think this is the best this show has done thus far dealing with real human emotion. And the actors NAILED how you can love and hate somebody at the same time - in the same space. How Rick killed Shane and then mourned his death for over a year. How Shane was certain that Rick needed to die but, if I am remembering this correctly, couldn't go through with it at the pivotal moment. And then Carl.. *moans*.

There is a scene that burned in my brain. It was the scene where Carl was looking at the deer, flanked by his father and Uncle Shane. Both men beamed with love for that boy and you had this feeling that Carl was the safest kid in the world because both of them would fight to the death with the fierceness of a grizzly if you threatened him. But then the shot rang out and Carl went down and both Rick and Shane sprinted, for what seemed like miles, to try to save him. The love on their faces was replaced with absolute terror and helplessness.

Rick and Shane were different but, like true brothers, their priorities were the same. They were of the same heart and loved with the same intensity. That one set out to kill the other. That one was killed by the other. That the boy they both loved so much put the bullet in the zombified version of Shane. Well that is the height of tragedy and it makes me cry to even think about it.

The scene that never fails to  make me cry is right after that.  After Rick has put the boy on Herschel's bed and he stumbles out of the house. Shane is right there as he always was, right by his brother's side.  He pulls Rick down on the steps and starts wiping the blood off his face.

No one will ever convince me he didn't love Rick.  I don't care what happened next. Shane loved him.

[smorbie]

On 10/24/2014 at 0:57 AM, Turtle said:

What I find truly fascinating?  To me, this whole discussion about Shane highlights the morality questions raised by this show.  What will we do in extreme circumstances?  What *should* we do?  How do our expectations of others in our immediate society change?  How does our treatment of them change?  How much of our sense of right and wrong is shaped by circumstances? 

I used to teach ethics and this IS the moral dilemma.  Simply put, do we make decisions based on the right thing to do or the expedient one?  The search for Sophia highlighted it.  Rick kept saying, "When a little girl is missing, you look for her", and he wasn't wrong.  But when Shane countered that was the rule before the world ended, before they were just a tiny group and a monsters were roaming the woods eating people, he was right, too.

I've often wondered how the group would have fared under Shane.  I think they may have done better, but I don't think the people would feel the loyalty they do to Rick.

I don't think the governor would have lasted as long as he did, because I think Shane would have killed him rather than try to negotiate.  And I think Shane would have been right.

After Terminus we've seen Rick come to think more like Shane did, but Rick still questions himself a lot more than Shane ever did.  And his hesitation can be deadly.

And I think Shane would have overpowered chatty cathy in the RV and saved us all a WHOLE lot of trouble.

[raven]

58 minutes ago, smorbie said:

I used to teach ethics and this IS the moral dilemma.  Simply put, do we make decisions based on the right thing to do or the expedient one?  

The show screwed up by killing Shane.  I know it was supposed to be for Rick's arc as a character, but we were perfectly set up with a complex person who had a history with Rick to be the perfect foil, the "other side of Rick", if not someone who could descend into outright villainy.  Plus he was played by a charismatic actor.

Instead we got the Governor and his YAWN story; OK, Terminus might have been something, gone pretty quickly, and now Negan and his endless monologues.  The Claimers were a group that put me in mind of Shane and could have stuck around.

Shane is STILL is mentioned and discussed years later, which goes to show that, whatever people's differing opinions on his actions, he was an interesting and compelling character in his own right.

The show has lacked a bad guy who made sense for a long time; I don't care what's in the comics because we have stories and people on the show who aren't. 

Oh well.  Shane was and is still someone who sparked a lot of discussion!  I'm not going there again, just complaining in general :)

[CletusMusashi]

On 4/22/2017 at 8:24 PM, Nashville said:

If Shane was alive I believe he would be just like Rick is today. Rick & Shane are kind of one in the same except I do believe that Shane more than likely would have turned Michonne over to the Governor.

So... exactly like Rick, then?

[smorbie]

I don't think Shane would have become the way Rick is.  Rick hesitates and thinks.  Shane never did.  He had a certainty about him.  He might regret having to take a certain action and he might later regret having done so, but in the moment he didn't pause.  He just did what he thought was best.

[rab01]

On 4/22/2017 at 8:24 PM, Nashville said:

I'd guess that Shane's jealousy of Rick for Rick's wife and son predated the ZA, but pre-ZA Shane would have never acted on those feelings.  Pre-ZA Shane would have been the best Uncle Shane a Carl ever had, and very Southern-gentleman courteous to Lori - other than the occasional feigned-drunk kiss or grope at the annual Christmas party, of course.  And maybe New Years.  And maybe 4th of July.  And pre-ZA Shane would have eventually married someone either identical to - or opposite from - Lori in every way, and they would be divorced within two years because every day after the honeymoon Shane's unlucky bride would sense in Shane a growing dissatisfaction he would never admit to himself, much less discuss with her or anybody else.  

I agree with a lot of what you've said about Shane but pre-ZA Lori was heading towards divorcing Rick and then, if Shane really wanted her, he could have pursued her.  That said, I'm not sure whether post-ZA Shane had deep feelings for Lori as Lori or just for Lori as Rick's wife or former wife.  We never really saw what Shane had to do to keep Lori and Carl alive for the first few weeks but I bet it felt like the first time he had a serious purpose in his life.  (And the reason I infer that about those weeks is from the performances we saw on the screen, not just head cannon)

The shit this year with Tara or Rosita or Sasha just doesn't hit as hard as any of the character beats from the first few seasons. Rosita just seemed like an idiot fucking things up, not a conflicted person whose tensions cause other people pain.

Y'know Kirkman may not have been great at plot, dialogue  or world building but I think he was great at creating characters that were memorable and rich (while admittedly also being somewhat archetypes/stock characters) and at giving those characters some really memorable moments.

[Nashville]

7 hours ago, rab01 said:

I agree with a lot of what you've said about Shane but pre-ZA Lori was heading towards divorcing Rick and then, if Shane really wanted her, he could have pursued her.  That said, I'm not sure whether post-ZA Shane had deep feelings for Lori as Lori or just for Lori as Rick's wife or former wife. 

My contention was (and still is) both pre-ZA and post-ZA, Shane's initial attraction towards Lori wasn't based on Lori as an individual, but as a primary player in Shane's idealized image of Rick's "perfect" life.  The reality* of Rick's family dynamic, of course, was far from ideal.  Rick and Lori were having some serious arguments (unsurprisingly about communications issues) and were well down the road toward becoming another failed marriage statistic.  Were Rick's and Lori's marriage to have dissolved pre-ZA, any interest Shane might have in Lori would probably dissolve just as fast - partly because a Shane pursuit of Lori would be a violation both of Bro Code and partner rules, but also because a divorced Lori would no longer be the "ideal" Lori.  Which isn't to say Shane might not still tap that, if the opportunity presented to do so without Rick finding out.  ;>

 

Not to say Shane's feelings for Lori couldn't evolve past the initial attraction grounds; in fact I would expect them to.  The Shane we saw with Lori prior to Rick's return obviously cared a great deal for Lori as an individual - if not outright love, then the intensely possessive precursor.  :)  But such would still be a secondary evolution of the initial motivation.

 

* And yes, I realize discussing the "reality" of a fictional relationship is kinda contradictory.  Deal with it.  ;)

[Nashville]

My favorite Shane moment: Shane shooting Otis - the perfect logical extension of the “I don’t have to run faster than the bear” hypothesis.  ;)

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, Nashville said:

My favorite Shane moment: Shane shooting Otis - the perfect logical extension of the “I don’t have to run faster than the bear” hypothesis.  ;)

My friend says that all the time, I don't have to run faster than the bear, just have to be faster than you. ?

When the ZA happens might be a good idea NOT to team up with him for survival 

[Nashville]

18 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

My friend says that all the time, I don't have to run faster than the bear, just have to be faster than you. ?

When the ZA happens might be a good idea NOT to team up with him for survival 

Sure you can!  Just remember the Shane Corollary: it’s MUCH easier to win a footrace if you shoot the other guy first.