Season 4: Marvelous Full-Season Discussion

[Pallas]

Your place to discuss season 4 as a whole, or the full series through season 4: themes, storylines, character arcs, etc. Please bear in mind that anything from the series to date is fair play to discuss, and no spoiler tags will be used. 

[retrograde]

This episode was fantastic, but oof, it was a slog to get here. Nothing happened this season! I know the show had to change location plans because of covid and stick to NYC, but that shouldn't have held back the story arcs. Every character except maybe Joel (who I don't care about) just spun their wheels and ended up basically where they started. Had all the episodes dropped at once like past seasons, this might have been less evident, but getting two at a time really hammered home how little forward momentum there was. Episode 8 should have been episode 5 or 6. 

[shapeshifter]

17 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

...are you thinking that doctors could pinpoint day of conception back in 1960? Hah. I don't think so. Back in 1978 the doctors were able to pinpoint the month, but that was it.

5 hours ago, Aulty said:

I was initially going by still very leafy park vs. the snow storm in late October (all the Halloween references) and thought that there were at least a couple of months between the two encounters. But there actually is a temporal reference in the episode: At the Jacky Kennedy gig she mentions the hookup was 'a couple of weeks ago'.  Plus at a couple of days for the Moishe drama, assuming it was right after, should put at least create a 15 day gap. Hah. 😉

But even in the 70s, a 15-day gap was not enough to definitively determine whose baby it would be unless Midge's cycles were very regular, and unless she was tracking them, and unless she was sure she was not ovulating when one of the 2 contributors' little swimmers would have gotten to the target. 
All of this👆 could be true, and I can even imagine an ASP-style conversational dump in which Midge tells all of the above to someone.

It just seems like there was no real reason for the married guy hookup (other than guest star buzz) if not to create some later drama. It seemed like a Chekhovian hookup for the final season.
Even if I'm projecting the experiences of myself and other women from around that time, I don't see why else they'd use Milo Ventimiglia for that particular kind of role, if not to at least show another source of concern to women during the time of so-called sexual liberation (often not as liberating for women).

There are a lot of ways this could go. I wonder if the Palladinos have it set in stone yet in their minds?
I can even imagine Mae and Joel not being together anymore for a variety of reasons–—from religious to death to just not wanting the same things–—and then pregnant Midge getting back together with Joel, with the identity of the baby's father unknown, since all 3 guys are of similar stature and coloring.
Or, Midge is pregnant but either has an abortion or miscarriage, while Mae and Joel support each other so Mae can become a doctor, much like RBG and her husband supported each other so she could eventually become a Supreme Court Justice. 

But I seem to be the only one considering all of these possibilities.🤷‍♀️

[Aulty]

56 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

It just seems like there was no real reason for the married guy hookup (other than guest star buzz) if not to create some later drama.

The drama was Midge reciting the story at the Kennedy luncheon in front of Jackie.

[shapeshifter]

21 hours ago, Aulty said:

The drama was Midge reciting the story at the Kennedy luncheon in front of Jackie.

Ohhh. Right. Duh.
Well, there's still some stuff in my above post that might apply to Season 5 speculation, so I'll just leave it as is for now. ⭐
And, maybe the reverse is also true? 
–—that the bit with Jackie will turn out to be how we learn that Midge has a pregnancy of unknown origins that may or may not be Lenny?

_______________________________________

⭐Thanks to the moderator who moved this and related posts to the Season 4 General thread for me/us (where I meant to post)!

Edited March 14, 2022 by shapeshifter

[millennium]

Eight episodes of unrelenting horseshit.

As so many have already said -- nothing happened.  The show went nowhere.  Last season ended with a prominent male entertainer disappointed/angered/feeling betrayed by Miriam.  This season ended with a prominent male entertainer disappointed/angered/feeling betrayed by Miriam.   Way to advance the story, idiots.

Does anyone really think Susie is funny?   Her office scenes are slapstick and tedious.   That repeated phone-on-the-clothesline business ... by the tenth time, ugh.   There's a reason that kind of "zany" humor fell out of popularity.    Meanwhile Susie's harsh manner has crossed the line from quirky to just plain obnoxious.   She and Joel should get their own show where they just bark at people in rapid-fire sentences and call it comedy.    Btw, is the constant misgendering of Susie supposed to be funny because she's perceived as lesbian?  

Why is so much time squandered on other performers?  Last episode, Alfie the magician.  This episode, Lenny Bruce.   And the strippers with that Love-American-Style-meets-Hollywood-Squares-meets-Rent fantasy.   Did Miriam even give a performance in this show?  I mean besides sleeping with Lenny.

But then again, no great loss.   The truth is, Miriam's not very funny.   Again and again the show insists she is but when it comes time to strut her stuff, all she delivers are zingers in search of a rimshot.

I finally realized the only reason I watch the show is that I really like the character of Miriam as portrayed by Rachel Brosnahan.   But the writing is shit.  The other characters are thirsty and annoying.   The show seems to exist for no reason beyond serving as a showcase for the wonderful period sets, wardrobe and art direction. 

Edited March 14, 2022 by millennium

[luvthepros]

1 hour ago, millennium said:

Eight episodes of unrelenting horseshit.

As so many have already said -- nothing happened.  The show went nowhere.  Last season ended with a prominent male entertainer disappointed/angered/feeling betrayed by Miriam.  This season ended with a prominent male entertainer disappointed/angered/feeling betrayed by Miriam.   Way to advance the story, idiots.

Does anyone really think Susie is funny?   Her office scenes are slapstick and tedious.   That repeated phone-on-the-clothesline business ... by the tenth time, ugh.   There's a reason that kind of "zany" humor fell out of popularity.    Meanwhile Susie's harsh manner has crossed the line from quirky to just plain obnoxious.   She and Joel should get their own show where they just bark at people in rapid-fire sentences and call it comedy.    Btw, is the constant misgendering of Susie supposed to be funny because she's perceived as lesbian?  

Why is so much time squandered on other performers?  Last episode, Alfie the magician.  This episode, Lenny Bruce.   And the strippers with that Love-American-Style-meets-Hollywood-Squares-meets-Rent fantasy.   Did Miriam even give a performance in this show?  I mean besides sleeping with Lenny.

But then again, no great loss.   The truth is, Miriam's not very funny.   Again and again the show insists she is but when it comes time to strut her stuff, all she delivers are zingers in search of a rimshot.

I finally realized the only reason I watch the show is that I really like the character of Miriam as portrayed by Rachel Brosnahan.   But the writing is shit.  The other characters are thirsty and annoying.   The show seems to exist for no reason beyond serving as a showcase for the wonderful period sets, wardrobe and art direction. 

Are you up for one more season of what you seem to feel is "horseshit"?

[millennium]

On 3/12/2022 at 9:08 AM, Aloeonatable said:

 

I think his appearance is a tease for the 5th season. The Palladinos love him and wouldn't just waste those 5 minutes of screen time for a one-off. 

I never watched Gilmore Girls so I am unfamiliar with the Palladinos and all the actors they have recycled from that show into this show.   But reading these threads for a few years now it seems that reputation of Gilmore Girls/the Palladinos casts a very large shadow on this show, to an extent that it often seems Gilmore Girls and the Palladinos are unseen characters on the Marvelous Mrs. Maisel. 

It always seems to me that when the creators of a show loom larger than the show itself -- Michelle and Robert King, Shonda Rhimes, etc. -- the creative product suffers.   I have always wanted to like Marvelous Mrs. Maisel.  I love the titular character and her portrayal by Rachel Brosnahah.   But there is very little else about the show I enjoy.  

Is it possible that "Palladino-ness" of the show has actually had a negative impact on what might have been a better series?   For example, it's no secret that Chris Carter, creator of the X-Files, ruined the X-Files in the end, because he just couldn't refrain from putting his thumbprint on everything. 

[millennium]

2 minutes ago, luvthepros said:

Are you up for one more season of what you seem to feel is "horseshit"?

Probably not.   I love Midge but every episode this season has been a disappointment.   Last season had an actual story -- Midge  befriends Shy and earns his respect, Midge works well with Shy's team, Midge gets her big break ... and fucks up.   Not only did this season lack any story  but all of Midge's instincts were wrong and her choices were bad (turning down Tony Bennett) if not outright stupid (the Kennedy luncheon).   Consequently Midge's career went nowhere.  I think Rose had a better career arc this season than Midge did.  Maybe they should call it the Marvelous Mrs. Weissman.

[quangtran]

1 hour ago, millennium said:

The show went nowhere.  Last season ended with a prominent male entertainer disappointed/angered/feeling betrayed by Miriam.  This season ended with a prominent male entertainer disappointed/angered/feeling betrayed by Miriam.

They are only comparable when framed in the absolute broadest possible way. I'd say the endings were vastly different from both an event and emotional standpoint.

1 hour ago, millennium said:

Did Miriam even give a performance in this show?

I'd say she performed many times. Off the top of my head I remember the "revenge" set at the Gaslight, her doing the set with her pretending to be a typical male comic, the one where Lenny was throwing things at her, her warming up for Sophie, the one that Rose say and then copied, the one at luncheon, and the one in honor of women at the end. So that's one one per episode.

[quangtran]

31 minutes ago, millennium said:

It always seems to me that when the creators of a show loom larger than the show itself -- Michelle and Robert King, Shonda Rhimes, etc. -- the creative product suffers.   I have always wanted to like Marvelous Mrs. Maisel.  I love the titular character and her portrayal by Rachel Brosnahah.   But there is very little else about the show I enjoy.  

Is it possible that "Palladino-ness" of the show has actually had a negative impact on what might have been a better series? 

I'd say no. Virtually every celebrity creator has favourite actors and a distinct style of writing, and the few negative tics from their style usually comes with a lot of positives that made them famous in the first place. Palladino characters are talky and annoying, but their shows are charming and heartfelt. Shonda shows are talky and over-the-top, but they are romantic and addictive. Damon Lindelof shows are often frustrating, but they are ambitious/innovative.

[kwnyc]

One thing I realized just now is that this year in the show is 1960, and it's close to the end of the year when the season ends. If it's in October, the Presidential election is less than 4 weeks away! And yet the election is barely mentioned (and is a backdrop for Midge's set where she make Jackie Kennedy cry). So the show runners don't really seem to think it plays much of a role in the Weissman/Maisel lives, which doesn't make much sense, as it was a HUGELY contentious election, decided by a very small margin, and the first Catholic President. I find it hard to believe that no one in the main circle of characters was following it more closely.

[chessiegal]

I thought the point of having a car drive by with folks yelling out the window - woohoo, we won! - in the final scene of the season was that Kennedy had won the election. We know Halloween was soon or had passed. The 1960 Presidential election was held on November 8. I can't think of any other reason for the folks in the car to be celebrating.

[mostlylurking]

I can’t believe the season is over already. Eight episodes?  That’s it!?  I guess I’m just old but I don’t like these short seasons.  Ten episodes is bad enough but now we’re down to eight.  I won’t even miss it because I barely had enough time to get into it and it’s already over.  I miss long 20+ episode seasons. It also makes me appreciate soap operas, still cranking out one hour shows five days a week. 

[debraran]

1 hour ago, mostlylurking said:

I can’t believe the season is over already. Eight episodes?  That’s it!?  I guess I’m just old but I don’t like these short seasons.  Ten episodes is bad enough but now we’re down to eight.  I won’t even miss it because I barely had enough time to get into it and it’s already over.  I miss long 20+ episode seasons. It also makes me appreciate soap operas, still cranking out one hour shows five days a week. 

I know! I liked Kaminsky Method and I think we got 6 last season.

[Sarah 103]

On 3/14/2022 at 12:58 PM, kwnyc said:

One thing I realized just now is that this year in the show is 1960, and it's close to the end of the year when the season ends. If it's in October, the Presidential election is less than 4 weeks away! And yet the election is barely mentioned (and is a backdrop for Midge's set where she make Jackie Kennedy cry).

We saw campaign posters in hallway of The Village Voice. I can't think of a character that would be closely following politics who would be talking about the election on a regular basis. Unless something political is directly connected to something happening in the show or the characters, why would they mention it on a regular basis?      

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

We saw campaign posters in hallway of The Village Voice. I can't think of a character that would be closely following politics who would be talking about the election on a regular basis. Unless something political is directly connected to something happening in the show or the characters, why would they mention it on a regular basis?      

I was thinking if they just didn't want to waste dialog on it, they could have at least had some Nixon and Kennedy buttons on characters' coats.
But maybe they made a decision to downplay the 1960 election because politics is still currently so distracting? 
I mean, the Palladinos would probably prefer we argue about Shy and Midge rather than totally digress.
And given the attention paid to wardrobe, the absence of those buttons seems like a conscious choice.
Or did I miss some campaign buttons? I didn't notice the campaign poster in the Voice offices.

Edited March 16, 2022 by shapeshifter

[Sarah 103]

20 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I didn't notice the campaign poster in the Voice offices.

I could be wrong about the location, but I remember seeing Kennedy campaign posters in a hallway early in the season. 

 

[janie jones]

On 3/15/2022 at 4:07 PM, Sarah 103 said:

We saw campaign posters in hallway of The Village Voice. I can't think of a character that would be closely following politics who would be talking about the election on a regular basis. Unless something political is directly connected to something happening in the show or the characters, why would they mention it on a regular basis?      

There was also the scene when they were talking about what pictures to use on the cover with the outcome of the election. Also, I, too, thought the car that drove by was talking about the election.

Can anyone remind me how Susie got mixed up with the mob in the first place? I remember those guys kidnapping her, but I don't remember why.

[shapeshifter]

18 minutes ago, janie jones said:

Can anyone remind me how Susie got mixed up with the mob in the first place? I remember those guys kidnapping her, but I don't remember why.

Short answer: Susie was a gambling addict.

[Pallas]

Harry Drake sent the boys after Susie in retaliation for Midge's exposing Sophie Lennon. 

[janie jones]

@Pallas Oh that's right!

[vteal]

On 3/14/2022 at 7:19 AM, millennium said:

Probably not.   I love Midge but every episode this season has been a disappointment.   Last season had an actual story -- Midge  befriends Shy and earns his respect, Midge works well with Shy's team, Midge gets her big break ... and fucks up.   Not only did this season lack any story  but all of Midge's instincts were wrong and her choices were bad (turning down Tony Bennett) if not outright stupid (the Kennedy luncheon).   Consequently Midge's career went nowhere.  I think Rose had a better career arc this season than Midge did.  Maybe they should call it the Marvelous Mrs. Weissman.

I would watch that!  How fun would that be to follow a matchmaker around?  Different story every episode built in.  And more Rose with the fabulous clothes!  

[gorgy]

22 hours ago, vteal said:

I would watch that!  How fun would that be to follow a matchmaker around?  Different story every episode built in.  And more Rose with the fabulous clothes!  

ABC used to have a show decades ago called Cupid that had a similar sort or premise (other than the main character thought he was actually Cupid). I used to love that show, but I don't think it lasted a full season

Edited April 14, 2022 by gorgy

[vteal]

5 hours ago, gorgy said:

ABC used to have a show years decades ago called Cupid that had a similar sort or premise (other than the main character thought he was actually Cupid). I used to love that show, but I don't think it lasted a full season

I watched that!  I think there were only a handful of episodes.