The Books, The Movies, The Show: Compare And Contrast

[Affogato]

7 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

Not many, especially in isolated and small communities. More in urban areas, but still a small percentage. Even now, the UK is 87% white per the last census (in 2011, so probably a little bit smaller now... but still). Medieval myths/legends do include both non-European characters and women in armor, but the story typically comments on this. The stories don't acknowledge that the characters are not common for the setting.

If you think of how the actual LotR talked about Eowyn, it is very similar to how myth/legends. LotR acknowledged that Eowyn was unusual for her society. By contrast Rings of Power seems to just expect the audience to not be curious about how/why Galadriel is in the position she's in or think about how her being female in the role may affect her social relations with others. But we also can see that the elven army is predominantly (maybe even exclusively?) made up of male elves.

Tolkien was a Christian and said he didn’t address religion because he did not want to create or write about pagan religions nor include Christianity where it didn’t fit. I know more about CS Lewis but if they shared opinions about women, Tolkein cannot be described as a feminist either. 

I have to admit that I tried to read the Silmarillion several times and gave up, so I can’t speak on the society if elves in detail. For all of my childhood wonder at the four books, the string memory of Moria and the shire, i never felt that there was a lot to be return to, some of which is that I read it many times as a teen v

still an immortal group might find a place for this Galadriel and the elves are not human. That her army is mostly make might show she had taken  up ber brothers helm and cause, and the elves are sort of nordic. So it  might make sense she leads, especially in exile.   It makes sense as a story element. 

[Camera One]

6 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Having watched two episodes, I've completely given up trying to reconcile this show with the books.  They are just taking some of the characters and some of the lore and weaving their own tale.

That's the impression I'm getting too.  It does seem like most of the characters like Galadriel are "in name/looks only", which is sad considering their rich lore.  And they've already changed some of the events from the First Age (eg. Galadriel's brother quest to find Sauron becoming Galadriel's driving motivation) so what the characters experienced would have been different, possibly making them a different person.  Even for characters like Elrond whose past hasn't been spelled out on the show, I don't get the sense it's the Elrond who had experienced what the Book Elrond did (even the brief things they threw out like he wasn't important enough to be included in the councils, or Galadriel implying Elrond was naive).  

[quarks]

15 hours ago, rmontro said:

The difference there is Christopher Tolkien has died.  Chris was a very zealous guardian of his father's work, the rest of the family is more free with it.  As for people of color, I'm not looking to make it an issue, but Tolkien did not write them into his book.

Tolkien did write POC into his books:

From The Fellowship of the Ring:

"The Harfoots were browner of skin, smaller, and shorter...." almost immediately contrasted with "the Fallohides were fairer of skin and also of hair."

In the next paragraph:

"The Harfoots....were the most normal and representative variety of Hobbit, and far the most numerous."

Which is to say, the original text clearly states that Middle-Earth didn't just contain brown skinned hobbits; these brown skinned hobbits outnumbered the white hobbits, even if the films/shows so far have chosen to mostly show us white hobbits. 

From The Two Towers, bolding mine:

"For a moment he [Sam] caught a glimpse of swarthy men in red running down the slope.....Then suddenly straight over the rim of their sheltering bank, a man fell, crashing through the slender trees, nearly on top of them. He came to rest in the fern a few feet away, face downward, green arrow-feathers sticking from his neck below a golden collar. His scarlet robes were tattered, his corslet of overlapping brazen plates was rent and hewn, his black plaits of hair braided with gold were drenched with blood. His brown hand still clutched the hilt of a broken sword."

From The Return of the King:

"Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand, Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues."

...so, yeah, the representation is not always awesome (like, yikes!), and certainly isn't extensive, but POC are in the books.

[MJ Frog]

7 hours ago, quarks said:

browner of skin

I have to comment here, because I keep seeing this quote misused over and over again as referring to POC. "Browner" is a comparative term and does not automatically equal a race other than white. Caucasian folks come in a multitude of shades besides albino, unless we are now considering anyone of Mediterranean extraction to be POC. Maybe Sam was intended to be black, or non-white, but given that the Shire is essentially a stand-in for the English countryside, I don't think that's what the professor had in mind when he described the Harfoots as "browner of skin". The showrunners can do as they see fit, but that quote does not indicate that Tolkien envisioned Hobbits as anything but white -- the previous productions haven't hidden anything from anybody.

Edited September 12, 2022 by MJ Frog
For clarity.

[rmontro]

3 hours ago, quarks said:

"For a moment he [Sam] caught a glimpse of swarthy men in red running down the slope..

Yes, for sure, but those peoples were from outside of the "European" area of Middle-Earth.  I didn't include them since they are presented as villains. In fact, some have suggested that they could have had some men of the East in the show to fulfill their diversity requirements, while still staying within Tolkien lore.  They are normal men, and it isn't inconceivable that some of them might be traveling. 

But that aside, it's clear this isn't a show that's going to be adhering closely to Tolkien's stories, and maybe even can't do to their license limitations.  So if you're satisfied with a show that is "based on" Tolkien's works, this might fit the spot.  Someday though, it would be nice to see an accurate adaptation that brings stories from the Silmarillion to life.

[PeterPirate]

3 hours ago, quarks said:

...so, yeah, the representation is not always awesome (like, yikes!), and certainly isn't extensive, but POC are in the books.

Yikes is right.  Tolkien's overall message was the need for unity between diverse life forms, but the stuff about how the mixing of Numenorean blood with that of "lesser" men led to a decrease in their lifespan doesn't work in today's modern world.  

That said, I have very mixed feelings about creating a "modern re-imagining" and applying a "necessary redress of balance".  The statement issued on September 7 was especially divisive.  I can understand why a lot of people will not watch this show to avoid the possibility they will be called a racist if they say they don't like it. 

[rmontro]

3 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

That said, I have very mixed feelings about creating a "modern re-imagining" and applying a "necessary redress of balance"it. 

That's the main issue I have with it.  I resent the implication that Tolkien's writings are somehow not good enough or are somehow racist, and that they need to be repaired before they are fit to be presented to a modern audience.  Tolkien's aim in creating Middle-Earth was to create a mythology for England, with Scandinavian influences, so it can scarcely be considered a slight or unusual that it didn't contain POC.   

[Affogato]

15 hours ago, MJ Frog said:

I have to comment here, because I keep seeing this quote misused over and over again as referring to POC. "Browner" is a comparative term and does not automatically equal a race other than white. Caucasian folks come in a multitude of shades besides albino, unless we are now considering anyone of Mediterranean extraction to be POC. Maybe Sam was intended to be black, or non-white, but given that the Shire is essentially a stand-in for the English countryside, I don't think that's what the professor had in mind when he described the Harfoots as "browner of skin". The showrunners can do as they see fit, but that quote does not indicate that Tolkien envisioned Hobbits as anything but white -- the previous productions haven't hidden anything from anybody.

I think that the hobbits may have some connection to the picts, as opposed to the Roman/Norman/Scandinavian invaders. Not people of color, but native to the islands, not from outside the islands.

https://allthatsinteresting.com/picts

You know, casting people of color isn't really something that should bother people, in my opinion. If a black man and a white man are cast in a family as brothers and they act as brothers, does it matter if they look alike? We know they are playing a part. It is a good thing that more jobs are being made available to more people. It is also good that different kinds of stories are told, but this particular story isn't telling a tale that is informed in that way.

[Affogato]

14 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Yikes is right.  Tolkien's overall message was the need for unity between diverse life forms, but the stuff about how the mixing of Numenorean blood with that of "lesser" men led to a decrease in their lifespan doesn't work in today's modern world.  

I honestly think that Tolkeins overall message is more that that the strength of a society is in the common and overlooked members of that society, pastoral and retiring, with reserves that they can call on when threatened.

Edited September 12, 2022 by Affogato

[Affogato]

On 3/6/2022 at 5:17 PM, Anduin said:

 Furthermore, do you really want to see beards on dwarf women?

Yes. I do. I really want bearded dwarf women. The idea that the whole race has been moving around in the world and most people can't tell the difference between the sexes is pretty fantastic. It isn't a deal breaker, or anything, but still, yes, I want bearded female dwarves.

[PeterPirate]

22 hours ago, rmontro said:

That's the main issue I have with it.  I resent the implication that Tolkien's writings are somehow not good enough or are somehow racist, and that they need to be repaired before they are fit to be presented to a modern audience.  Tolkien's aim in creating Middle-Earth was to create a mythology for England, with Scandinavian influences, so it can scarcely be considered a slight or unusual that it didn't contain POC.   

I have a slightly different take.  Human history is replete with racism, tribalism, conquest, colonization, pillaging, and so on.  Tolkien's works are applicable to all this, so there is no need to "fix" them.  

I personally don't have a problem with the casting of POC actors.  I do find the use of race as a shield  to deflect criticism of the show highly objectionable. 

There is also the issue of having only Harfoots, which are supposedly "proto-Hobbits".  It raises the question of whether the Stoors and Fallohides even exist yet, and whether the darker Harfoots are somehow less developed than their fairer-skinned counterparts.  

Edited September 13, 2022 by PeterPirate

[rmontro]

5 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

I do find the use of race as a shield  to deflect criticism of the show highly objectionable. 

Yeah, I really dislike the whole "if you don't like this show, you're a racist" approach.

[johntfs]

17 hours ago, rmontro said:

Yeah, I really dislike the whole "if you don't like this show, you're a racist" approach.

OTOH if you dislike this show because of black Elves or other non-white characters, then yeah, you're a racist.

[rmontro]

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

OTOH if you dislike this show because of black Elves or other non-white characters, then yeah, you're a racist.

I don't agree with that.  A Tolkien purist might not like the show because it isn't true to Tolkien.  Some people are very particular about being true to the source material.  That's the only complaints about black Elves that I've heard.  Automatically assuming they are racists is a rush to judgement.

[PeterPirate]

4 hours ago, johntfs said:

OTOH if you dislike this show because of black Elves

This, I submit, is why this show is getting less viewers than House of the Dragon (according to Samba).  Tolkien specifically wrote his elves with fair skin, but if someone points that out, they run the risk of being canceled.  For the average viewer it's going to be safer to watch other shows.  

Edited September 13, 2022 by PeterPirate

[cambridgeguy]

2 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

This, I submit, is why this show is getting less viewers than House of the Dragon (according to Samba).  Tolkien specifically wrote his elves with fair skin, but if someone points that out, they run the risk of being canceled.  For the average viewer it's going to be safer to watch other shows.  

Or the average viewer can watch (or not) without running to the internet or social media and posting a 2 hour video explaining why the show is awesome or sucks.  There's no question they massively compressed the timeline, invented some new characters, and altered existing ones.  Whether or not that created a good show is subjective.

[johntfs]

20 hours ago, rmontro said:

I don't agree with that.  A Tolkien purist might not like the show because it isn't true to Tolkien.  Some people are very particular about being true to the source material.  That's the only complaints about black Elves that I've heard.  Automatically assuming they are racists is a rush to judgement.

These people that are "very particular about being true to the source mater" are they also bitching about pale people playing the Southern folks who are supposed to be darker hued?  No?  Didn't think so.

If this show was something like Vikings where a few of the Vikings were black people without explanation, you might have something.  But elves, dwarves, etc are fictional, made-the-fuck-up beings.  So they can be any damned color/race the show-runner wants.

Also, the Tolkien estate sold Bezos and co. the rights to do this show.  Presumably they demanded a presentation on how that show would.  The Tolkien estate are presumably the purist Tolkien purists around.  If they were fine with black elves, why would anyone else care?

Unless they're racist.

[PeterPirate]

16 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Or the average viewer can watch (or not) without running to the internet or social media and posting a 2 hour video explaining why the show is awesome or sucks.  There's no question they massively compressed the timeline, invented some new characters, and altered existing ones.  Whether or not that created a good show is subjective.

I don't think what's happening is the result of a bunch of YouTubers.  Responsibility lies with Amazon, for promoting this show as a "modern reimagining" and so on.  Amazon telegraphed to viewers that this show was going to be a fundamentally different viewing experience than the Jackson films.  Worse, they surrounded the show with the aura of politics--as evidenced by their September 7 statement--which preternaturally divides people into "good" and "bad" categories.  

HBO didn't infuse House of the Dragon with a political message, and Steve Toussaint has been nothing but gracious since his show became a hit.  I hope Amazon will dial back the political rhetoric.  People may wish to "just watch the show", but nobody is going to be unaware of the externalities going on.  

[JustHereForFood]

I've seen zero marketing of the show that concentrated on anything "political". 

Then again, I've only watched trailers, teasers and some cast interviews, maybe there was some other promotion I didn't notice.

[rmontro]

7 hours ago, johntfs said:

If this show was something like Vikings where a few of the Vikings were black people without explanation, you might have something.  But elves, dwarves, etc are fictional, made-the-fuck-up beings.  So they can be any damned color/race the show-runner wants.

I think you underestimate the amount of passion that Tolkien fans have for him and his writing.  The majority of complaining I have heard is about everything that the show runners have added to that does not come from Tolkien's stories.  This may include, but is not limited to  the race of certain peoples.  In fact, I have not seen anyone whose sole complaint was that there are black people in the show.  They don't like that this show is not true to the source material.  In other words, the race stuff may or may not be a part of the complaint, but it is only a part of the complaint. 

This is in part Amazon's fault, for not making clear from the start that this was not going to be a show that was a faithful adaptation of Tolkien (nor could it be, apparently, because of the licensing).  If they had made clear from the start this was just going to be a show based on Tolkien's work, it might have lessened the backlash somewhat.

As for the Tolkien estate, from what I understand Amazon has the original licensing that Tolkien himself sold decades ago, essentially they bought the license that Jackson made LOTR with.  I don't think there is any particular licensing issued by the Tolkien estate for this show in particular.  Amazon is the only company that can make Tolkien shows right now, if I understand correctly.

I don't know what Tolkien's relatives think of the show, but I have read commentary from J.R.R. Tolkien himself about adaptations of his work, and I can say with a good deal of confidence he would not approve of this show.

6 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Worse, they surrounded the show with the aura of politics--as evidenced by their September 7 statement--which preternaturally divides people into "good" and "bad" categories.    

Amazon most definitely promoted this show with a political aura.  It wasn't promoted so much as a Tolkien show as a show pushing identity politics.  House of the Dragon also engaged in some race swapping from the books, but that was not pushed as part of the publicity.  And also, GRR Martin, as great as he is, simply does not inspire the type of loyalty that JRR Tolkien does.

[PeterPirate]

59 minutes ago, JustHereForFood said:

I've seen zero marketing of the show that concentrated on anything "political". 

Then again, I've only watched trailers, teasers and some cast interviews, maybe there was some other promotion I didn't notice.

I've referred to the September 7 statement a couple times.  Here it is in full:  

We, the cast of Rings of Power stand in absolute solidarity and against the relentless racism, threats, harassment, and abuse of some of our castmates of color are being subjected to on a daily basis. We refuse to ignore it or tolerate it.

JRR Tolkien created a world which, by definition, is multi-cultural. A world in which free people from different races and cultures join together, in fellowship, to defeat the forces of evil. Rings of Power reflects that. Our world has never been all white, fantasy has never been all white, Middle-earth is not all white. BIPOC belong in Middle-earth and they are here to stay.

https://collider.com/rings-of-power-cast-statement-condemning-racist-backlash/

I'm sorry, but where is the evidence of "relentless racism, threats, harassment and abuse"?  Do they have the receipts?  

I suppose it depends on one's point of view if this activity can be characterized as "political".   I find it highly distasteful and I grieve that Professor Tolkien's work is being used in this manner.  

[Anduin]

26 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

I've referred to the September 7 statement a couple times.  Here it is in full:  

We, the cast of Rings of Power stand in absolute solidarity and against the relentless racism, threats, harassment, and abuse of some of our castmates of color are being subjected to on a daily basis. We refuse to ignore it or tolerate it.

JRR Tolkien created a world which, by definition, is multi-cultural. A world in which free people from different races and cultures join together, in fellowship, to defeat the forces of evil. Rings of Power reflects that. Our world has never been all white, fantasy has never been all white, Middle-earth is not all white. BIPOC belong in Middle-earth and they are here to stay.

https://collider.com/rings-of-power-cast-statement-condemning-racist-backlash/

I'm sorry, but where is the evidence of "relentless racism, threats, harassment and abuse"?  Do they have the receipts? 

I take it you stay off Tolkien twitter. Because I've seen some pretty bad stuff. Believe me, there is a backlash. No I can't show you, I long ago muted all those people. But it was there.

[johntfs]

27 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

I'm sorry, but where is the evidence of "relentless racism, threats, harassment and abuse"?  Do they have the receipts?  

I suppose it depends on one's point of view if this activity can be characterized as "political".   I find it highly distasteful and I grieve that Professor Tolkien's work is being used in this manner.  

Well, I mockingly laugh that once again "being true to the source material" is getting used as cover for bigoted bitching because assholes are feeling their pee-pees getting pinched because non-white, non-male people are showing up in their nerd crap.

[PeterPirate]

35 minutes ago, Anduin said:

I take it you stay off Tolkien twitter. Because I've seen some pretty bad stuff. Believe me, there is a backlash. No I can't show you, I long ago muted all those people. But it was there.

I don't follow Twitter so I'll have to take your word for it.  Frankly, I would have thought that if there was a large amount of awful posts there would have been an article about it in Forbes or the Washington Post.  

6 minutes ago, johntfs said:

Well, I mockingly laugh that once again "being true to the source material" is getting used as cover for bigoted bitching because assholes are feeling their pee-pees getting pinched because non-white, non-male people are showing up in their nerd crap.

Well, to repeat myself, I don't have a problem with the casting of POC.  And after watching the first two episodes I abandoned all hope that the show would exhibit fidelity to the source material.  To clarify, when I said, "I grieve that Professor Tolkien's work is being used in this manner" I meant that his work has been politicized by those who enjoy using disputatious language and casting aspersions at others.  

As to your reference to "nerd crap", despite my avatar, I've never done cosplay or attended a comicon.  There is a war in Ukraine being fought by men in trenches, much like JRR Tolkien did before he started his literary career.  That is why his work has special poignancy to me at this time. 

[rmontro]

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

Well, I mockingly laugh that once again "being true to the source material" is getting used as cover for bigoted bitching because assholes are feeling their pee-pees getting pinched because non-white, non-male people are showing up in their nerd crap.

And I mockingly laugh that anyone can think that no one can object to the show for not being true to the source material without being a bigot.  But hey, people today love to throw around all the "ist" words real fast and real loose.

[MJ Frog]

We are being asked to accept a dramatic conceit, as often happens in make-believe land. The conceit being a very modern racial mix in a what was meant to be an ancient version of our own world. This is a conceit that carries with it significant benefits, notably providing opportunities for POC to get a foothold in the industry, and providing representation for the under-represented. This is important stuff. And honestly, this show is so far removed from Middle Earth in so many ways that I didn't really pay much mind anyway. And even though it doesn't make a lick of sense for someone whose people have spent most of their existence underground to have dark skin, I like Disa and I like the actress.

This is the way we do things now, up to and including regency period drama, and movies about Anne Boleyn. But I am uneasy with the idea that everything, regardless of context, time, or place, must be cast like a modern American police procedural or it's some kind of -ist. My question is, should representation be the overriding concern all the time every time? I don't have the answer to that one, but I despair that this country will ever have the maturity to have a real discussion on the matter.

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

Well, I mockingly laugh that once again "being true to the source material" is getting used as cover for bigoted bitching because assholes are feeling their pee-pees getting pinched because non-white, non-male people are showing up in their nerd crap.

I am sure this describes some people, but I am equally sure most of the objections are coming from people who have no problem with brown faces on their TV screen, but who find a cast resembling an idealized American community jarringly modern in a way that takes them out of the story.  

1 hour ago, PeterPirate said:

I don't follow Twitter so I'll have to take your word for it.

Believe it. People are awful. As demonstrated by those who lost their shit when Star Wars cast an asian woman in a fictional universe that was tailor made for diversity. She took a lot of abuse for that.

[rmontro]

7 minutes ago, MJ Frog said:

I am sure this describes some people, but I am equally sure most of the objections are coming from people who have no problem with brown faces on their TV screen, but who find a cast resembling an idealized American community jarringly modern in a way that takes them out of the story.  

Agree, that's the real truth of it.  Especially when Amazon markets it on its diversity, saying something like "Now at last Tolkien can be for everyone".  As if it were not accessible for everyone in the first place.

The books will always be superior to any film version, at least that's my opinion.  Peter Jackson probably did as good a job adapting LOTR that anyone could.  But I have massive problems with all sorts of decisions he made, all having to do with changes from the books.  I had to watch the movies a second time before I could even relax enough to enjoy them, because the changes were too jarring.  The only change he made that I really liked was at the end, when Aragorn told the hobbits:  "My friends, you bow to no one".  

[MJ Frog]

6 minutes ago, rmontro said:

The only change he made that I really liked was at the end, when Aragorn told the hobbits:  "My friends, you bow to no one". 

You know, given the respect that Aragorn showed the Hobbits and their lands as King, that line felt totally in character.

[quarks]

1 hour ago, PeterPirate said:

I don't follow Twitter so I'll have to take your word for it.  Frankly, I would have thought that if there was a large amount of awful posts there would have been an article about it in Forbes or the Washington Post.  

And you would be correct! There were indeed articles about this in People, Entertainment Weekly, The New York Post, Variety, Yahoo!, The Guardian, CNN, and yes, The Washington Post, along with multiple other outlets.  And although yes, much of this reporting is fairly recent, and in response to Amazon shutting down comments on its site, a very quick Google search showed that news outlets reported on this in February, July and August of this year - before Amazon shut down those comments. 

I will note that people cannot get Amazon to shut down fake products, fake reviews, reviews that have nothing to do with the product but just shipping issues, and - new problem! - pirated editions of some ebooks, and that Amazon rarely removes 1 star reviews, so I think it's safe to say that the comments left on Amazon were probably pretty terrible.

[Anduin]

2 hours ago, MJ Frog said:

And even though it doesn't make a lick of sense for someone whose people have spent most of their existence underground to have dark skin, I like Disa and I like the actress.

The genre's called fantasy. It's meant to be unrealistic. Source. Besides, dwarves aren't human. They didn't evolve. There was no neanderthal dwarf. They were created by Aulë. There's no need for their skin colours to adhere to human standards.

[PeterPirate]

3 hours ago, MJ Frog said:

We are being asked to accept a dramatic conceit, as often happens in make-believe land. The conceit being a very modern racial mix in a what was meant to be an ancient version of our own world. This is a conceit that carries with it significant benefits, notably providing opportunities for POC to get a foothold in the industry, and providing representation for the under-represented. This is important stuff. And honestly, this show is so far removed from Middle Earth in so many ways that I didn't really pay much mind anyway. And even though it doesn't make a lick of sense for someone whose people have spent most of their existence underground to have dark skin, I like Disa and I like the actress.

This is the way we do things now, up to and including regency period drama, and movies about Anne Boleyn. But I am uneasy with the idea that everything, regardless of context, time, or place, must be cast like a modern American police procedural or it's some kind of -ist. My question is, should representation be the overriding concern all the time every time? I don't have the answer to that one, but I despair that this country will ever have the maturity to have a real discussion on the matter.

I am sure this describes some people, but I am equally sure most of the objections are coming from people who have no problem with brown faces on their TV screen, but who find a cast resembling an idealized American community jarringly modern in a way that takes them out of the story.  

Believe it. People are awful. As demonstrated by those who lost their shit when Star Wars cast an asian woman in a fictional universe that was tailor made for diversity. She took a lot of abuse for that.

3 hours ago, quarks said:

And you would be correct! There were indeed articles about this in People, Entertainment Weekly, The New York Post, Variety, Yahoo!, The Guardian, CNN, and yes, The Washington Post, along with multiple other outlets.  And although yes, much of this reporting is fairly recent, and in response to Amazon shutting down comments on its site, a very quick Google search showed that news outlets reported on this in February, July and August of this year - before Amazon shut down those comments. 

I will note that people cannot get Amazon to shut down fake products, fake reviews, reviews that have nothing to do with the product but just shipping issues, and - new problem! - pirated editions of some ebooks, and that Amazon rarely removes 1 star reviews, so I think it's safe to say that the comments left on Amazon were probably pretty terrible.

I suppose.  I skimmed several news articles on this topic and none of them provided examples of actual racism.  Most of them contain stuff like this snippet about the first photo of Disa:

When this was shown in The Rings Of Power trailer, certain groups within the fandom targeted both the show's creators and actors with racist backlash, accusing them of being "woke" and "disrespecting the source material".

https://www.buzzfeed.com/ishabassi/lord-of-the-rings-rings-of-power-review-bombing-racism

I don't consider the term "woke" to be necessarily racist.  It's about more than representation, it's about how that representation becomes manifest.  It means that POC and female characters will always be good and smart, and evil and stupid characters will always be White men.  The people of the Southlands, descendants of the servants of Morgoth, must be played by White people, except for the one who forms a bond with an Elf.  Galadriel is the only one who fears the return of Sauron, and she single-handedly dispatches a troll that a squad of White, male Elves couldn't lay a blade on.  And the Orcs in this show all have white faces.  

We're only three episodes in so it's too soon to know if this trend will continue.  But I'd be willing to bet money that Tar-Miriel will turn out to be supportive of the Faithful, and she will lose her throne to Pharazon because of it. 

[QuantumMechanic]

Well, canonically Miriel does support the faithful and does lose her throne over it (though in a different way than she’ll probably lose her throne here if the show does indeed make her non-evil).

[PeterPirate]

2 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

Well, canonically Miriel does support the faithful and does lose her throne over it (though in a different way than she’ll probably lose her throne here if the show does indeed make her non-evil).

True.  Although it was her father who was the repentant one.  I don't recall if the Akallabêth says specifically that  Miriel was planning to follow her father's footsteps, but it's a safe bet since Pharazon usurped her position.

Since Miriel is "Queen Regent" I imagine her father is alive but incapacitated, and we'll be seeing him presently.  

[quarks]

2 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

I don't consider the term "woke" to be necessarily racist.  It's about more than representation, it's about how that representation becomes manifest.  It means that POC and female characters will always be good and smart, and evil and stupid characters will always be White men.  The people of the Southlands, descendants of the servants of Morgoth, must be played by White people, except for the one who forms a bond with an Elf.  Galadriel is the only one who fears the return of Sauron, and she single-handedly dispatches a troll that a squad of White, male Elves couldn't lay a blade on.  And the Orcs in this show all have white faces.  

Just three episodes in, and this is objectively untrue:

1. The black woman on the raft in episode two, who initially helps Galadriel up to the raft, and then about one minute later, deliberately pushes Galadriel right back into the water and into the path of an approaching monster. 

2. Theo, the son of a character portrayed by a British/Iranian actress, who activates the EVIL SWORD in episode two, apparently not hearing the Evil Music of Doom, and at the very least does not tell his mother about this. The camera heavily implies that he has the EVIL SWORD with him.

3. The black leader of the Harfoots in episode three, who just ordered an entire family to suffer because of the choices of one - white - Harfoot girl. 

4. And the descendants of the servants of Morgoth in the Southlands village include at least a few black people - the first and most visible one appears at the 37.0 mark in episode one. 

And while I don't expect Arondir or Disa to go evil, I think it's way too soon to know what this show is planning on doing with Miriel. 

[PeterPirate]

15 hours ago, quarks said:

Just three episodes in, and this is objectively untrue:

1. The black woman on the raft in episode two, who initially helps Galadriel up to the raft, and then about one minute later, deliberately pushes Galadriel right back into the water and into the path of an approaching monster. 

2. Theo, the son of a character portrayed by a British/Iranian actress, who activates the EVIL SWORD in episode two, apparently not hearing the Evil Music of Doom, and at the very least does not tell his mother about this. The camera heavily implies that he has the EVIL SWORD with him.

3. The black leader of the Harfoots in episode three, who just ordered an entire family to suffer because of the choices of one - white - Harfoot girl. 

4. And the descendants of the servants of Morgoth in the Southlands village include at least a few black people - the first and most visible one appears at the 37.0 mark in episode one. 

And while I don't expect Arondir or Disa to go evil, I think it's way too soon to know what this show is planning on doing with Miriel. 

Well, my goal wasn't to prove this show was woke, only to show examples that fit a particular narrative.  I don't have a problem with this show if it is woke, just so long as they end up telling a story that is engaging and, well, Tolkien-esque.  Tolkien's works are applicable to any agenda or framework.  

ETA:  And just to be clear, my problem is the way this show has been marketed, not about its content.  

Edited September 16, 2022 by PeterPirate

[MJ Frog]

23 hours ago, Anduin said:

The genre's called fantasy. It's meant to be unrealistic. Source. Besides, dwarves aren't human. They didn't evolve. There was no neanderthal dwarf. They were created by Aulë. There's no need for their skin colours to adhere to human standards.

Of all the arguments to have a modern racial mix in every show, this is my least favorite: “I mean, like, it’s fantasy, so whatever dude.” By that logic we could have Gandalf flying around on a fart powered broom made of licorice and Cheetos.

Middle Earth, as stated earlier, is a proto western Europe, the legendarium intended as a mythology for the English people, very deliberately wearing its European influences on its sleeve. There is nothing inherently wrong with that, and it doesn’t exclude anyone anymore than the mythical Finland of the Kelavala, or Wakanda of Black Panther. They simply are what they are.

We can fanwank any number of reasons why there is an improbable mix of peoples more appropriate to a world with modern transportation. But the reason we have to fan-wank in the first place is that the producers made a choice to cast against the source material, a choice that was political rather than creative. It was made because we have decided the cost of the conceit is outweighed by the benefits of representation. This is not an unreasonable calculation.

But it also means the strings are showing. And this isn’t limited to fantasy these days but includes historical drama as well (which has the truly bizarre effect of erasing the history of racial inequality). All of which combines to make a lot of people feel manipulated by and wary of the kind of casting that needs fanwanking -- or just plain old handwaving -- to make sense of it.

The showrunners missed an excellent opportunity to have plenty of POC playing a whole new raft of heroes and scoundrels in the form of ancestral Southrons and Easterlings, whom the ancient Numenoreans gave plenty of reasons to hate the men of the West. Between their story and that of the Blue Wizards who were sent east to fight the influence of Sauron (and could be cast as POC) there is a lot of open canvas to paint on. With any luck we may yet see this.

Edited September 16, 2022 by MJ Frog
Prepositions are grand.

[Constantinople]

8 hours ago, MJ Frog said:

Middle Earth, as stated earlier, is a proto western Europe, the legendarium intended as a mythology for the English people, very deliberately wearing its European influences on its sleeve.

Yet everyone -- elves, dwarves, hobbits and humans -- of every social class and region speaks Modern English, a language that didn't exist at the time, and whose antecedents were limited in geographic scope, not some lingua franca that was commonly spoken across the continent.

Which is why just can't bring myself to care about "realism". The concern about it seems very selective.

Did anyone get upset when Denzel Washington played Macbeth in The Tragedy of Macbeth or when Sophie Okonedo played Margaret of Anjou in The Hollow Crown, the BBC's adaptation of Shakespeare's history plays? Many Shakespeare adaptations have changed the original setting but these were both set in the Middle Ages. The chances that an 11th century Scottish King or a 15th century Queen of England were Black are about zero.

Edited September 16, 2022 by Constantinople

[PeterPirate]

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

Yet everyone -- elves, dwarves, hobbits and humans -- of every social class and region speaks Modern English, a language that didn't exist at the time, and whose antecedents were limited in geographic scope, not some lingua franca that was commonly spoken across the continent.

Which is why just can't bring myself to care about "realism". The concern about it seems very selective.

Did anyone get upset when Denzel Washington played Macbeth in The Tragedy of Macbeth or when Sophie Okonedo played Margaret of Anjou in The Hollow Crown, the BBC's adaptation of Shakespeare's history plays? Many Shakespeare adaptations have changed the original setting but these were both set in the Middle Ages. The chances that an 11th century Scottish King or a 15th century Queen of England were Black are about zero.

I don't think anyone was "upset" by the casting of melanated people per se.  It was that it was a signal that there might be other departures from the source material.  The comments weren't just about skin color, it was the fact that Disa was clearly female, and that Arondir (and other Elves) all had short hair.  True Tolkien fans were well aware about his disdain for proposed TV/movie adaptations that departed from his work, and they were justifiably worried about what the show was going to do.  

Now that actual product is out there, those fears have been realized to the nth degree.  There is more than just time compression taking place.  There are major elements of the story that simply cannot be reconciled with the source material.  The only way to get something positive from this show is either to have not read the books or to accept that this is a "modern reimagining" and go along for the ride.  

And then there's the fact that those who raise such questions are being painted as ists and phobes and nerds who like nerd crap.  I don't recall hearing Denzel Washington complaining about being subjected a relentless stream of racism.  In fact, I found this snippet about the casting of Hamlet:

You know, in my humble opinion, we ought to be at a place where diversity shouldn’t even be mentioned, like it’s something special. These young kids — Black, white, blue, green or whatever — are highly talented and qualified. So that’s why they’re there.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/denzel-washington-wants-viewers-look-macbeths-race-rcna12143

But, in the end, the show itself is not that bad, and may turn out to be pretty good, and I think it is better to just go along for the ride.  

Edited September 16, 2022 by PeterPirate

[johntfs]

6 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

I don't think anyone was "upset" by the casting of melanated people per se.  It was that it was a signal that there might be other departures from the source material.  The comments weren't just about skin color, it was the fact that Disa was clearly female, and that Arondir (and other Elves) all had short hair.  True Tolkien fans were well aware about his disdain for proposed TV/movie adaptations that departed from his work, and they were justifiably worried about what the show was going to do.  

Now that actual product is out there, those fears have been realized to the nth degree.  There is more than just time compression taking place.  There are major elements of the story that simply cannot be reconciled with the source material.  The only way to get something positive from this show is either to have not read the books or to accept that this is a "modern reimagining" and go along for the ride.  

And then there's the fact that those who raise such questions are being painted as ists and phobes and nerds who like nerd crap.  I don't recall hearing Denzel Washington complaining about being subjected a relentless stream of racism.  In fact, I found this snippet about the casting of Hamlet:

You know, in my humble opinion, we ought to be at a place where diversity shouldn’t even be mentioned, like it’s something special. These young kids — Black, white, blue, green or whatever — are highly talented and qualified. So that’s why they’re there.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/denzel-washington-wants-viewers-look-macbeths-race-rcna12143

But, in the end, the show itself is not that bad, and may turn out to be pretty good, and I think it is better to just go along for the ride.  

My thing is if you want something that does not deviate from the source material, then read/watch the source material.

Anything adapted from source material into another medium will deviate substantially.  I look at adaptions, any adaptions as basically alternate universes based on some "source universe."

Is there going to be time compression here?  Sure.  Why?  Because they don't want to have to replace their non-elven main cast every couple of episodes.

If we're going to concede that all the characters are speaking modern English instead of having them speak whatever their language is and putting it in sub-titles, then we can also accept black elves, Iranian humans, etc.

[MJ Frog]

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Yet everyone -- elves, dwarves, hobbits and humans -- of every social class and region speaks Modern English, a language that didn't exist at the time, and whose antecedents were limited in geographic scope, not some lingua franca that was commonly spoken across the continent.

Which is why just can't bring myself to care about "realism". The concern about it seems very selective.

Yeah, but Tolkien makes it clear that they aren't speaking modern english, that the books are a translation. You aren't going to find anyone more careful, knowledgeable (or more obsessed) with language than the professor. I won't go into detail here, not enough time or expertise, but it's out there if you want to find it. Words were chosen carefully so that as many as possible had their antecedents in older forms of english, to give the language as english a feel as possible, and provide an analogue as to how the "real" languages related to each other. But what they were actually speaking was definitely not english. Samwise, for example is a modern translation of an older english form which is itself a translation of another language (Westron) altogether.

And honestly, I would have assumed that any fantasy or science fiction is a translation anyway. And it's no different than english speaking productions with actors playing people in foreign countries. You don't then say that realism isn't a thing because the actors aren't all speaking Dutch. 

As for Shakespeare, there is a long tradition of doing the plays in various settings with various kinds of people. Heck, in the beginning the women were played by men. And Shakespeare has been around so long, and is so universal, that it belongs to everyone. Furthermore, plays are already asking us to do quite a bit of heavy lifting -- something large is happening is a very small space, that may or may not resemble the real world, and is happening live in front of an audience. So a Moor who isn't really a Moor, or a Scottish king played by a Black man isn't a big thing.

Listen, if it doesn't bother you, great. You do you. Other than some irritation when I first heard about it, the casting hasn't really bothered me either. But I'm not going to say everyone who is annoyed by it is racist. I think that's far too facile and, honestly, smug a conclusion. It would be nice to say that we should be above what people look like, but the very fact that representation is a thing proves that it does mean something, that we do notice. And being expected to never notice is a bit of an ask. As stated upthread, I wish we could have a mature discussion about this without people yelling woke! on one side and racist! on the other.

Edited September 16, 2022 by MJ Frog
Clarity.

[PeterPirate]

On 9/16/2022 at 11:00 AM, MJ Frog said:

As stated upthread, I wish we could have a mature discussion about this without people yelling woke! on one side and racist! on the other.

I agree.  From my perspective no person or work of art is ever going be to 100% or 0% of something.  There are always levels of gray.  Tolkien's works are not without problems with regard to race.  He once wrote that Orcs were "squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types".  Just because he fought against the Nazis and wrote a book about different races working together doesn't erase that.  But it also doesn't make him a monster. Just a little less than perfect according to modern standards. 

Along those lines, here is a video by my favorite YouTuber, Lindsay Ellis.  This is the first of a four-part series about the LOTR films.  She also has a three-part series on the Hobbit films.  As she says in her video about The Two Towers, "You can like a thing whiile still examining its cultural impact and exploring its flaws".  

With regard to the language issue, I find it odd that Durin's children sang the Open Sesame rhyme in the common tongue instead of the Dwarven language.  I know the Dwarves do not use their own language around outsiders, but those children seemed too young and high-spirited to know or follow that practice.  

Also, I hope Disa accompanies Durin to Lindon, and she puts on a fake beard and male garments.  Dwarven women cannot be distinguished from Dwarven men by outsiders.  That doesn't mean they have to look that way when inside their own well-protected homes.  If that happens it will put that controversy to bed.  Besides, the more Sophia Nomvete, the better

Edited September 17, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Constantinople]

3 hours ago, MJ Frog said:

Yeah, but Tolkien makes it clear that they aren't speaking modern english, that the books are a translation. You aren't going to find anyone more careful, knowledgeable (or more obsessed) with language than the professor. I won't go into detail here, not enough time or expertise, but it's out there if you want to find it.

The main point is that everyone is speaking the exact same language without the need for any translation. The chances of that happening at any time in the Middle Ages is zero.

It's zero now or the United Nations wouldn't have multiple official languages and I don't know how many translators.

[JustHereForFood]

On 9/15/2022 at 5:32 AM, PeterPirate said:

I've referred to the September 7 statement a couple times.  Here it is in full:  

We, the cast of Rings of Power stand in absolute solidarity and against the relentless racism, threats, harassment, and abuse of some of our castmates of color are being subjected to on a daily basis. We refuse to ignore it or tolerate it.

JRR Tolkien created a world which, by definition, is multi-cultural. A world in which free people from different races and cultures join together, in fellowship, to defeat the forces of evil. Rings of Power reflects that. Our world has never been all white, fantasy has never been all white, Middle-earth is not all white. BIPOC belong in Middle-earth and they are here to stay.

https://collider.com/rings-of-power-cast-statement-condemning-racist-backlash/

I'm sorry, but where is the evidence of "relentless racism, threats, harassment and abuse"?  Do they have the receipts?  

I suppose it depends on one's point of view if this activity can be characterized as "political".   I find it highly distasteful and I grieve that Professor Tolkien's work is being used in this manner.  

But that is not promotion of the show as you have been saying. That is the reaction to horrible abuse that POC actors have been subjected to and to racist comments that are all over internet. You are lucky if you haven't seen it.

It's nothing new, similar has happened to Star Wars actors  - who were in the series that is not "inspired by European mythology", so there wasn't even that excuse and surprise, people were still racist.

It wouldn't be so in your eyes if people haven't complained for years "Don't change the race of existing characters, if you want POC characters, create your own!" Well, they did an this is the result.

On 9/15/2022 at 8:06 AM, rmontro said:

And I mockingly laugh that anyone can think that no one can object to the show for not being true to the source material without being a bigot.  But hey, people today love to throw around all the "ist" words real fast and real loose.

If you only complain about the difference from source material, nobody will call you any -ist. The problem is that the racist people, many of whom most likely don't even watch are the loudest and they make any relevant critique of the show difficult. There have been complains about not staying true to source material and complains about pacing (whatever that is supposed to mean), but they get drowned out by the hate.

Then of course, there is the usual back and forth about adaptations, where you might hear the usual "If you want accuracy, stay with books.", but that happens with every adaptation. 

[rmontro]

42 minutes ago, JustHereForFood said:

If you only complain about the difference from source material, nobody will call you any -ist. The problem is that the racist people, many of whom most likely don't even watch are the loudest and they make any relevant critique of the show difficult.

I'm sure there are racist people out there who don't want to see POC on their screen.  But I feel like Amazon is lumping all the people who want the show to be faithful to the books in with the people who are trolling the black actors (I'll take your word on that, since I'm not on Twitter or Instagram or wherever this happens).  The most common complaint I've heard is that the female dwarves don't have beards.

49 minutes ago, JustHereForFood said:

It wouldn't be so in your eyes if people haven't complained for years "Don't change the race of existing characters, if you want POC characters, create your own!" Well, they did an this is the result.

That's a fair point.  I think when people say that, they mean write a new story of your own.  But regardless, you have to understand that Tolkien has one of the most fanatical fanbases in the world, and many of them are not going to respond well to changes.  Amazon seems to be sending the message that they value diversity and inclusion over getting the story right, over being true to Tolkien's vision.  I'm sure that's admirable on some level, but if you're doing a Tolkien story I would think that should be your number one priority.  But instead it comes off as secondary to a political statement, or virtue signaling or making sure it fits into modern US sensibilities, or however you want to describe it.

[JustHereForFood]

2 minutes ago, rmontro said:

That's a fair point.  I think when people say that, they mean write a new story of your own.  But regardless, you have to understand that Tolkien has one of the most fanatical fanbases in the world, and many of them are not going to respond well to changes.  Amazon seems to be sending the message that they value diversity and inclusion over getting the story right, over being true to Tolkien's vision.  I'm sure that's admirable on some level, but if you're doing a Tolkien story I would think that should be your number one priority.  But instead it comes off as secondary to a political statement, or virtue signaling or making sure it fits into modern US sensibilities, or however you want to describe it.

But what is this unfaithfulness that you speak of? 

If you mean having a completely new story only inspired by the appendixes, that would have happened even if they cast only white actors. They don't have rights to other material. Again, it is relevant point of criticism that they perhaps should not have made any series in that case, until they get those rights, but that has nothing to do with casting, identity politics, wokeness or any of that.

If you mean having actors of color play some characters (and there isn't really that many of them if you watch it), then it is racist, because it's a fantasy series and characters can be played by any actors, they don't portray any existing people. And most of them play new characters, so there is no unfaithfulness to book description, characters from books like Elrond and Galadriel are played by white actors. Unless, of course, Tolkien stated somewhere that all inhabitants of Middle Earth are white. I mean, I've only read LOTR and Hobbit, so it is possible it was stated in some other book, but I find it hard to believe, if only because I would expect people to copy-paste such quote into every conversation by now if it existed.

[rmontro]

42 minutes ago, JustHereForFood said:

If you mean having a completely new story only inspired by the appendixes, that would have happened even if they cast only white actors. They don't have rights to other material.

Having on the appendixes is a major problem, but not everyone realizes the limitations, or maybe did not realize the limitations when the series was originally announced.  There was speculation going around that we were going to see a series on the Silmarillion.  Which this is....  kind of.  If you accept that this isn't really a Tolkien show, but rather just a show loosely based on Tolkien, you're going to enjoy it more.  But I'm not sure that's what everyone was originally expecting.

43 minutes ago, JustHereForFood said:

If you mean having actors of color play some characters (and there isn't really that many of them if you watch it), then it is racist, because it's a fantasy series and characters can be played by any actors, they don't portray any existing people. 

I disagree that it is necessarily racist, because there are not black elves or dwarves in the books, nor does it really make any sense that there would be.  Elves were born under starlight, and dwarves live underground.  Now you can put anyone of any race in any role, maybe it will work, maybe it won't.  Maybe it will work for some people, maybe it won't for others.  I think it works well in Hamilton, for instance.  Frankly, I wouldn't be discussing this race stuff at all right now, except that I want to defend Tolkien fans who want to see the material as Tolkien wrote it, I don't like seeing them all denounced as racists.

[PeterPirate]

3 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

But that is not promotion of the show as you have been saying. That is the reaction to horrible abuse that POC actors have been subjected to and to racist comments that are all over internet. You are lucky if you haven't seen it.  

If you only complain about the difference from source material, nobody will call you any -ist. The problem is that the racist people, many of whom most likely don't even watch are the loudest and they make any relevant critique of the show difficult. There have been complains about not staying true to source material and complains about pacing (whatever that is supposed to mean), but they get drowned out by the hate.

Then of course, there is the usual back and forth about adaptations, where you might hear the usual "If you want accuracy, stay with books.", but that happens with every adaptation. 

An internet search for "Rings of Power racism" won't turn up news articles referring to racists on Twitter.  It will turn up article after article referring to complaints about "woke" and "deviation from the source material".

Amazon is a massive company.  And in these days of access journalism, it is inconceivable that these writers weren't directed in some way to conflate "woke" with "racist".  Find me an article about how Ismael Cruz or Sophia Nomvete are/were subjected to a "relentless" stream of racist tweets and I'll change my mind on this.  

And in the end, it doesn't really matter anymore if that statement was directed at tweets or not.  The show is now surrounded by racial politics.  And that is just going to keep driving away viewers. 

And again, the term "woke" is about more than skin color, it's about content.  Can you imagine JRR Tolkien writing "Elf workers taking your trades"?  I can't.  Ar-Pharazon invaded Valinor because he wanted to be immortal, not because he feared the Elves were going to take over Númenór.  And I fear that racism will turn out to be the reason for the invasion in this show.   

The real tragedy is that Tolkien's works are "woke" enough to fulfill a Marxist's wet dreams.  At this point of the Akallabêth, Númenór had established colonies in Middle Earth and made war on any number of the indigenous peoples.  Ar-Pharazon went to war against Sauron to establish dominion over Middle Earth, not to save some group of farmers.  Tolkien hated allegory, but at least that story has its parallels with the clash of imperialist powers that was the First World War. 

Edited September 18, 2022 by PeterPirate

[quarks]

On 9/16/2022 at 1:17 PM, PeterPirate said:

And then there's the fact that those who raise such questions are being painted as ists and phobes and nerds who like nerd crap.  I don't recall hearing Denzel Washington complaining about being subjected a relentless stream of racism.  In fact, I found this snippet about the casting of Hamlet:

So. That quote.

It's about Macbeth, by the way, not Hamlet. And in it, Denzel Washington said that we ought to be at a place where diversity doesn't matter, not that we are at a place where diversity doesn't matter. And the reason he said that was because he was being asked why a black person was playing Macbeth. Which is to say, absolutely, yes, Denzel Washington was being questioned about that casting, and he was asking people to stop asking that question and instead just accept that, yeah, black actors appear in Shakespeare plays/films.

So I'm not sure this is the best quote to use to defend those who, as you put it, raise such questions - since Washington doesn't think you should be raising those questions at all.  He wanted you to focus on his performance as Macbeth, not that he was a black man playing Macbeth. And yet, here we are - bringing up that he was a black man playing Macbeth.

That's aside from the problem of comparing A-lister Denzel Washington, who has plenty of managers and personal assistants to shield him from stuff, to every cast member in this show - many of whom have their DMs open on Twitter at least in part so that they can be contacted for potential opportunities. This show barely even has any B-listers attached to it (maybe Lenny Henry). Many of them don't even rate Wikipedia pages.

But I think the biggest issues here? The implication that because an actor attached to a completely different project didn't mention getting deluged with racist comments, that the racist comments that yes, I and other people on this forum saw on Twitter (and in my case, Reddit) somehow don't exist. Or that, relatedly, a lack of complaints from one actor who, again, is not even attached to this project, somehow outweighs the reports made by multiple cast members, producers, writers and Amazon employees.

And again, Amazon has a documented history of leaving up negative reviews - for instance, the first comment right now on Season 6 of The Expanse, also an Amazon produced show, is a negative (and if I may say, irrelevant) comment on the season. Amazon also left up all the 1 star comments complaining about the season's release schedule, or that the show had "gone the way of smut," and so on, and complaints about sex addicts and whatever - not just negative, but irrelevant. 

1 hour ago, PeterPirate said:

Find me an article about how Ismael Cruz or Sophia Nomvete are/were subjected to a "relentless" stream of racist tweets and I'll change my mind on this.  

Took about 20 seconds on Google. From NPR:

https://www.npr.org/2022/09/06/1121293090/rings-of-power-ismael-cruz-cordova-response-to-trolls

"Córdova — who is Afro Puerto Rican and plays the Elven warrior Arondir — recently told Esquire that he has received "pure and vicious hate speech" in his DMs nearly every day for the past two years."

(Suggesting that Esquire also wrote about this, but that might be behind a paywall.)

[MJ Frog]

On 9/16/2022 at 5:23 PM, Constantinople said:

The main point is that everyone is speaking the exact same language without the need for any translation. The chances of that happening at any time in the Middle Ages is zero.

Well, it’s a good thing this isn’t Middle Ages Europe, then.

I’ve already answered this, but this is a time-honored storytelling expedient in both fantasy and science fiction, lest we weigh down the story with procedure – Star Trek and Star Wars being the worst offenders. The thing that baffles me is the assertion that if we accept a technique used so often it's nearly invisible, then we have no right to expect any kind of internal consistency or logic because look, they’re all speaking modern english! Well yeah. Drama of all kinds is full of these kinds of compromises – these aren’t documentaries we’re watching, but a sort of received version of the story, one which we are layers removed from. We can understand and accept this and yet still have critiques and certain expectations, including a qualified level of "realism".

And, of course, we aren’t talking about Middle Ages Europe. We are talking about a proto western Europe, a mythical, magical, pre-Christian, pre-known-history Europe, as indicated by the sources and traditions it borrows from, and from the stated intentions of the author himself. Given its not-Middle-Ages history, and given that lingua francas (linguas franca?) are a thing, hence the term, it is not at all out the realm of possibility that this part of Middle Earth we are concerned with would have one.

The standard now seems to be casting every show as if it takes place in 21st century America. We even see this in historical dramas including modern adaptations of Jane Austen, in Bridgerton (although I really see that show as being about a new Delos park called Regency World), and a movie about Anne Boleyn whose lead was Black but was otherwise historically accurate. To some people this may feel performative, or pedantic, or too obvious an intrusion of modern sensibilities. Despite that, it may well be that this kind of casting is the best way to go, that the benefits outweigh any other concerns. But reasonable concerns can be raised without being the result of racism. One wonders if there was a production of the Kalevala, or of Norse mythology, that didn’t have people of color, would that be considered racist? Would it depend on the racial make-up of the country producing it?

Anyway, I have said all I can say on this and I find myself having to respond to the same points over and over, so I will get off this merry-go-round. The show has many problems, and casting is very far down that list, if it’s on there at all, but its covering an era we haven’t seen on screen before (despite having the rights to very little of it) and I will continue to watch with interest.

Edited September 18, 2022 by MJ Frog
Clarity.

[PeterPirate]

5 hours ago, quarks said:

So. That quote.

It's about Macbeth, by the way, not Hamlet. And in it, Denzel Washington said that we ought to be at a place where diversity doesn't matter, not that we are at a place where diversity doesn't matter. And the reason he said that was because he was being asked why a black person was playing Macbeth. Which is to say, absolutely, yes, Denzel Washington was being questioned about that casting, and he was asking people to stop asking that question and instead just accept that, yeah, black actors appear in Shakespeare plays/films.

So I'm not sure this is the best quote to use to defend those who, as you put it, raise such questions - since Washington doesn't think you should be raising those questions at all.  He wanted you to focus on his performance as Macbeth, not that he was a black man playing Macbeth. And yet, here we are - bringing up that he was a black man playing Macbeth.

That's aside from the problem of comparing A-lister Denzel Washington, who has plenty of managers and personal assistants to shield him from stuff, to every cast member in this show - many of whom have their DMs open on Twitter at least in part so that they can be contacted for potential opportunities. This show barely even has any B-listers attached to it (maybe Lenny Henry). Many of them don't even rate Wikipedia pages.

But I think the biggest issues here? The implication that because an actor attached to a completely different project didn't mention getting deluged with racist comments, that the racist comments that yes, I and other people on this forum saw on Twitter (and in my case, Reddit) somehow don't exist. Or that, relatedly, a lack of complaints from one actor who, again, is not even attached to this project, somehow outweighs the reports made by multiple cast members, producers, writers and Amazon employees.

And again, Amazon has a documented history of leaving up negative reviews - for instance, the first comment right now on Season 6 of The Expanse, also an Amazon produced show, is a negative (and if I may say, irrelevant) comment on the season. Amazon also left up all the 1 star comments complaining about the season's release schedule, or that the show had "gone the way of smut," and so on, and complaints about sex addicts and whatever - not just negative, but irrelevant. 

Took about 20 seconds on Google. From NPR:

https://www.npr.org/2022/09/06/1121293090/rings-of-power-ismael-cruz-cordova-response-to-trolls

"Córdova — who is Afro Puerto Rican and plays the Elven warrior Arondir — recently told Esquire that he has received "pure and vicious hate speech" in his DMs nearly every day for the past two years."

(Suggesting that Esquire also wrote about this, but that might be behind a paywall.)

Fair enough.  As I said before, I skimmed through about a half-dozen articles and none of them mentioned DMs.  Or if they did, the focus was on criticisms about wokeism.  

But I still maintain that the September 7 statement struck a defiant tone that did more damage than good.  In the NPR and Esquire articles Cruz discussed the hateful DMs but maintained a conciliatory tone much like Denzel Washington.  The studio statement had the impact of painting all negative comments as racist, and that has spread to the mainstream media.  The NPR article says this:  

Since the show's premiere, the trolling aimed at the actors has since transformed into a review-bombing campaign of the series. Despite having critical success with a Rotten Tomatoes score of 84%, the show's current audience score is 39%. 

The implication is the audience rating at Rotten Tomatoes is the result of racism.  No mention of the possibility that show might not be that popular, or that the critic rating might be the result of access journalism.  No mention of the fact that House of the Dragon is not suffering the same problems despite having POC actors.  

Then there's the timing.  If Cruz was subjected to two years of relentless racism, why did Amazon waited until the show started before addressing it?  Please.  

It's still possible the ratings will pick up over time and the impact of the September 7 statement will fade.  But right now the show is surrounded by the aura of American racial politics.  And that's not good for the show.  

And we have yet to learn why Númenor invades Valinor.  Pharazon's assertion that "Elven hands will never take Númenor's helm" doesn't bode well, I must say.  

Edited September 18, 2022 by PeterPirate