S01.E03: The Dollhouse

[bilgistic]

I thought the same thing, @Dewey Decimate.

[Cinnabon]

On 12/3/2021 at 6:27 PM, WaltersHair said:

I think the strange symbol is actually trigonometry or at least math based

circles and triangles

Or related to a hobo code of some sort. 

[blixie]

Quote

I'm also with those who wish we could avoid the supernatural elements,

I don't really get insisting a show avoid the supernatural "elements' when its very first images are very obvious references to Blair Witch totems and spooky voices soundtrack, both carried through each and every episode we have seen to greater or lesser extent.. I'd much rather:  it was a witch! than multiple non believable contrivances as to why they weren't found for so long and why they decided heh let's kill and eat each other even though we have shelter, water, tools, weapons, and abundant prey although a lake that seems to have no fish since they went for a much harder thing to catch/clean in a deer? Yup give me that saweet folk horror witch wood spirit shit over that, it doesn't undermine drama for me it adds layers of meaning and metaphor and actual interest.

[Cinnabon]

6 minutes ago, blixie said:

I don't really get insisting a show avoid the supernatural "elements' when its very first images are very obvious references to Blair Witch totems and spooky voices soundtrack, both carried through each and every episode we have seen to greater or lesser extent.. I'd much rather:  it was a witch! than multiple non believable contrivances as to why they weren't found for so long and why they decided heh let's kill and eat each other even though we have shelter, water, tools, weapons, and abundant prey although a lake that seems to have no fish since they went for a much harder thing to catch/clean in a deer? Yup give me that saweet folk horror witch wood spirit shit over that, it doesn't undermine drama for me it adds layers of meaning and metaphor and actual interest.

Some like supernatural elements, some don’t. I detest them and will be upset if that’s how this show goes . To each their own.

[Black Knight]

Personally, I love and consume a lot of content that is supernatural-related, from books to movies to TV shows.

I just think that here, first, there's a lot of drama already without supernatural elements needed; second, I'm dubious the show would be able to make it all come together well; and third, it's the personal and interpersonal aspects of the characters that really interest me. I don't want to see that some witch demon got into the girls' heads and caused trouble; I'd rather see how previously existing resentments as well as new resentments manifested themselves and turned the natural power struggles over what to do into really toxic ones that divided the girls, as the veneers of civilization dropped away through isolation and survival concerns. The creator said she came up with the idea for this show because somebody told her that a Lord of the Flies situation would never happen with girls. If some evil demon ultimately influenced the girls, then the creator didn't do what she set out to do. It'd be a cop-out.

[paulvdb]

Personally I love a lot of shows with supernatural elements, but only if it is made clear in the show's premise that it will have those elements. I don't like it when shows start off seemingly without supernatual elements and then suddenly adds them later.

[Cinnabon]

6 hours ago, Black Knight said:

Personally, I love and consume a lot of content that is supernatural-related, from books to movies to TV shows.

I just think that here, first, there's a lot of drama already without supernatural elements needed; second, I'm dubious the show would be able to make it all come together well; and third, it's the personal and interpersonal aspects of the characters that really interest me. I don't want to see that some witch demon got into the girls' heads and caused trouble; I'd rather see how previously existing resentments as well as new resentments manifested themselves and turned the natural power struggles over what to do into really toxic ones that divided the girls, as the veneers of civilization dropped away through isolation and survival concerns. The creator said she came up with the idea for this show because somebody told her that a Lord of the Flies situation would never happen with girls. If some evil demon ultimately influenced the girls, then the creator didn't do what she set out to do. It'd be a cop-out.

Well said! 

[blixie]

Quote

I don't want to see that some witch demon got into the girls' heads and caused trouble; I'd rather see how previously existing resentments as well as new resentments manifested themselves and turned the natural power struggles over what to do into really toxic ones that divided the girls, as the veneers of civilization dropped away through isolation and survival concerns.

I mean I think it can and it should be two things. One element does not eradicate the reading of the other. 

And yeah I think hunting your friends to eat them is way way way beyond what your describing and I'm gonna need a bigger and much more believable reason for unrealistic high concept premise to be explained: aka in an high concept way, and involving horror/supernatural elements does not have to eliminate any of those other things it simply heightens those issues and makes the non believable parts work for me. such as not being found in fucking Canada for 19 months, or even trying to be rescued at all which we haven't seen them attempt.  I'll take doing dumb shit because a witch made it all possible, rather doing dumb shit because you want a morality social commentary story to play out. The truth to me,  is people are much more awful while operating within civilization than outside it. And honestly I think this show is less why/how they did it and more how they are living with having done it and if it's really in the past. A good example is the death of Nat's dad, she didn't actually shoot him, but she would have been justified in doing so and still feels terrible that it happened in the grand scheme because she pulled it on him in the first place. A wood spirit witch (aka determination) influencing their ability to be rescued, or influencing and heightening their fears about survival doesn't eliminate their will and agency while they were out there. 
 

[Cinnabon]

5 hours ago, blixie said:

I mean I think it can and it should be two things. One element does not eradicate the reading of the other. 

And yeah I think hunting your friends to eat them is way way way beyond what your describing and I'm gonna need a bigger and much more believable reason for unrealistic high concept premise to be explained: aka in an high concept way, and involving horror/supernatural elements does not have to eliminate any of those other things it simply heightens those issues and makes the non believable parts work for me. such as not being found in fucking Canada for 19 months, or even trying to be rescued at all which we haven't seen them attempt.  I'll take doing dumb shit because a witch made it all possible, rather doing dumb shit because you want a morality social commentary story to play out. The truth to me,  is people are much more awful while operating within civilization than outside it. And honestly I think this show is less why/how they did it and more how they are living with having done it and if it's really in the past. A good example is the death of Nat's dad, she didn't actually shoot him, but she would have been justified in doing so and still feels terrible that it happened in the grand scheme because she pulled it on him in the first place. A wood spirit witch (aka determination) influencing their ability to be rescued, or influencing and heightening their fears about survival doesn't eliminate their will and agency while they were out there. 
 

Have you read “Lord of the Flies?”

[Black Knight]

5 hours ago, blixie said:

And yeah I think hunting your friends to eat them is way way way beyond what your describing and I'm gonna need a bigger and much more believable reason for unrealistic high concept premise to be explained: aka in an high concept way, and involving horror/supernatural elements does not have to eliminate any of those other things it simply heightens those issues and makes the non believable parts work for me. such as not being found in fucking Canada for 19 months, or even trying to be rescued at all which we haven't seen them attempt.  I'll take doing dumb shit because a witch made it all possible, rather doing dumb shit because you want a morality social commentary story to play out.

Lord of the Flies with girls and no demons influencing them is a tricky high concept to pull off, certainly. But I am not prepared to declare it unrealistic in itself before I see how the show does in executing it. My mind remains open. The girls were out there for 19 months, so I think there's opportunity for a realistic devolution of their group that doesn't involve demons influencing them to do things they'd never have done otherwise. It comes down to the writing, naturally. The characterizations and interpersonal relationships have been done well enough so far that I think the writers could turn out to be capable of executing that concept in full without falling back into demons as explanation. Even if a demon only "influenced" them rather than full-on possessed them, there would still be an element of the girls would never have done whatever they did without that. And for this particular show, I would find that a cop-out from what the creator essentially promised.

Search efforts back then didn't go on for very long, and as one commenter pointed out, the TWA flight disaster a short bit later would have pulled any remaining efforts away. Some of the other complaints about rescue and such - well, they did write SOS in big red letters on the white plane, for instance, not to mention there's the plane itself for searchers to spot, so whether they put SOS rocks out on the beach isn't that important to me. They've had fires going, so putting a bonfire on the beach also isn't that important to me. We don't know where in Canada they actually are, but we do know that they're not in the country they're supposed to be in, so American authorities would have looked in America while Canadian authorities wouldn't have been looking at all. They have one adult with an amputated leg who really can't go anywhere, so some need to stay with him, and I can certainly understand why there would be hesitation among the other girls about sending some of them out to hike in hope of finding something. People die that way, too, by leaving where they are and hiking through wilderness. And what do they do about food, when there is only one gun? Does the gun go with the hikers or stay with the others? It isn't winter yet, when they can easily freeze meat for the hikers to take. They aren't survivalists. Lots of hard decisions here to be made by people ill-equipped to make them. The advice in these situations is generally to stay put, though every situation has to be evaluated on its own merits.

And, of course, we don't know how they do get rescued. So we're looking at an incomplete picture here. I don't need demons yet to explain how they went un-rescued for 19 months, just as I don't need demons yet to explain how the girls devolved. I'm prepared to give the show time to play out.

[Anela]

I thought the little carving was marking someone’s way through those trees and mountains.  Maybe the person who owned the hunting lodge.  

[heatherchandler]

On 12/12/2021 at 3:27 PM, Cinnabon said:

Or related to a hobo code of some sort. 

The Hobo Code!  I remember this from Mad Men.  Don (Dick)'s step-father was labeled a dishonest man.

 

On 12/13/2021 at 10:44 AM, Black Knight said:

Personally, I love and consume a lot of content that is supernatural-related, from books to movies to TV shows.

I just think that here, first, there's a lot of drama already without supernatural elements needed; second, I'm dubious the show would be able to make it all come together well; and third, it's the personal and interpersonal aspects of the characters that really interest me. I don't want to see that some witch demon got into the girls' heads and caused trouble; I'd rather see how previously existing resentments as well as new resentments manifested themselves and turned the natural power struggles over what to do into really toxic ones that divided the girls, as the veneers of civilization dropped away through isolation and survival concerns. The creator said she came up with the idea for this show because somebody told her that a Lord of the Flies situation would never happen with girls. If some evil demon ultimately influenced the girls, then the creator didn't do what she set out to do. It'd be a cop-out.

The show is about high school girls... there is no need for a supernatural witch to make this about evil, high school girls can be plenty evil.  In civilization or isolation, either way!

 

[BitterApple]

1 hour ago, heatherchandler said:

 

The show is about high school girls... there is no need for a supernatural witch to make this about evil, high school girls can be plenty evil.  In civilization or isolation, either way!

 

I agree. I'm hoping this doesn't come down to "the girls did x/y/z because of some spirit entity out in the woods." I think it'll be such a copout in terms of the writing. As you said, they don't need to go there. You have a bunch of teenagers who don't even have fully developed brains, trying to gut it out in the woods for 19 months. It stands to reason the stress will cause many of them to break down mentally, and the trauma stays with them well into adulthood. 

I don't hate supernatural elements per se, but they're rarely done well. I'd hate to see another show ruined by them.

Edited December 16, 2021 by BitterApple

[Black Knight]

1 hour ago, BitterApple said:

I don't hate supernatural elements per se, but they're rarely done well. I'd hate to see another show ruined by them.

Right? I ask myself what the endgame would be, if something supernatural is involved here. Can you just imagine adult Shauna, Taissa, Misty and Natalie chanting a spell to cast out the evil demon? No thank you. The present day, especially, does not feel like it lends itself to that. There are shows and films I love this stuff on. This doesn't feel like the kind of show that would do this well. The strengths of this show are clearly in its characterizations and its interpersonal relationships. I don't see any need to move away from those strengths to supernatural explanations that are likely weaker.

If I want to watch teens being influenced by evil supernatural entities I'll rewatch the Fear Street film trilogy for the fourth or fifth time...I've lost track of how many times I've watched that. As I've said, I do love supernatural stuff! But with Fear Street that's baked in. paulvdb made the excellent point upthread that there was nothing in the promotion for this to suggest anything supernatural. And I also feel like there is a ton of supernatural content out there (I've watched so much of it, ha!) but not as much that really gets teenage girls or their relationship dynamics. This show has a chance to do something I haven't seen before. That intrigues me. And even if it fails, honestly, for a long time I've been in the camp where I'd rather read or watch an interesting failure than something that's adequately executed but wholly conventional. It's not that I don't love and enjoy conventional tropes, but I've got my stellar and really good examples of them already. I don't feel the potential with this show to do something amazing with supernatural tropes. That's not where the writers' strengths seem to lie.

[Cinnabon]

If I wanted to see the supernatural as part of a story I’d watch the CW 🤣

[sistermagpie]

On 12/14/2021 at 11:35 AM, blixie said:

I mean I think it can and it should be two things. One element does not eradicate the reading of the other. 

 

Agreed.

I'm just getting into this show now - binging maybe before the finale and loving it, but wanted to weigh in on the supernatural vs not debate just to say that I love Folk Horror, and sometimes it's supernatural and sometimes it isn't. It's very possible that the group could believe in something spiritual/supernatural/pagan after their time in the woods that would feel real--and maybe still feel real to them--without there being an actual wendigo or whatever. That seems very in keeping with where the show sits. When you're living along in the winter woods with no streetlights, the line between natural and supernatural's going to get pretty thin once you step away from the campfire.

That also seems like it goes along with Tai's grandmother's experience. She believed in angels and thought she'd be with Jesus after death, but saw/hallucinated a man with no eyes coming for her in the end.

[Zonk]

I think this just broke my suspension of disbelieve. Even if nobody had been in that cabin for 20 years, there still has to be a path to the outside world and it can't be that far away from civilisation. How did they get stuck there for 19 months?

 

Also no duh, Travis didn't kill himself. how would he have extended that machine to hoist himself up there. Somebodie else must have done it.

[Zonk]

On 11/28/2021 at 6:01 PM, WaltersHair said:

The police conveniently showed up not once, but twice at very remote and not particularly interesting places: Travis' house and the farm. Either Travis was doing some illegal stuff and was being watched, or Nat and Misty were followed.

Or it was bad writing. Always an option.

On 12/12/2021 at 10:27 PM, Cinnabon said:

Or related to a hobo code of some sort. 

Is it just me or did whoever wrote that chart also use code because there is no way "gentleman" and "kind gentleman" doesn't mean "(kind) gay guy".

[Emily Thrace]

On 11/29/2021 at 11:35 PM, Yakima said:

Ignoring all the ludicrous stuff in this show one thing that just really stands out for me is that they find that cabin, And that cabin is full of processed lumber and heavy timbers, glass windows, tools, furniture and none of that got carried in there on someone's back.  There would have to be a road out.  

 

It hasn't been occupied in decades though. It's most likely there was a road but it's overgrown. Or was flooded out by a Dam. Ontario built a lot of hydro dams in the 60s and 70s and it rearranged a lot of their northern landscape. It also could still be hundreds of miles from anywhere there are a few abandoned mining towns in that part of the country. 

[Affogato]

On 11/28/2021 at 6:05 PM, Armchair Critic said:

That may be, but her face looks rough for her age.

they did show her in makeup when she looked 'prettier'. Makeup can also emphasize bad aspects of your appearance and people who have very flexible and expressive faces will age faster.

[Red Fields]

On 11/29/2021 at 6:58 PM, BitterApple said:

For those old enough to remember, TWA 800 exploded off of Long Island in mid-July of 1996. That flight was a Boeing 747 with 200+ people on board.

I heard the explosion! I was sitting in my parents backyard on LI, 38 miles away. It was shockingly loud. We all jumped and said WTF was that?