S03.E09: Souls

[Sakura12]

After waking up on a mysterious train, Tim Drake teams up with two familiar heroes to locate an elusive bridge back to land of living. Meanwhile Rachel grapples with her own powers in a desperate attempt to resurrect Donna.

[Sakura12]

Wasn't expecting to see Hank again so that was a surprise. I was expecting him not to make it back though. The actor is busy elsewhere now. 

I guess in death, Donna remembered she has super speed since she rarely used it when she was alive. And she mentioned how stupidly she died. 

It seemed super easy to come back to land of living. Why would they need the Lazarus pit, if all it takes is walking across a bridge fighting second rate dementors. 

They didn't even mention Diana, Donna's adopted mother. Did she care that she was dead? Donna was like 6 when Diana took her in she spent a lot more time with Diana as her mother then Dick had with Bruce as his father. Yet Diana wasn't around at all or talked about. They could've even said Diana was in mourning and told Rachel she was causing her more pain or something. 

Also how did Donna know Bruce was trying to kill himself? And how did she get there so fast? Did she remember she can fly too? Is she going to tell him to train Tim Drake. When she would probably be the better option to train him to be the next Boy Wonder. 

While I liked not completely focusing on the BatFam drama. It seems like they rushed this resurrection to get back to the BatFam drama. I also hope with the meta commentary in this ep with Rachel saying she'd thought they'd be fighting more as a team actually means they will and not them just throwing a bone to the complaints. 

It's been 3 seasons and they've had maybe 2 or 3 actual team up fights. 

[UnoAgain]

I'd be down for more time and Donna time.... Throw in kori and he's got two awesome big sisters looking out for him

[KittenPokerCheater]

This was an excellent, excellent episode.    I loved it.

I love the idea of Hank being with his brother (it was his brother, right) was so great.

More Donna please.  I am confused thought- it doesn't seem like Rachel did anything in the episode other than cause some trouble on Themyscira.  Speaking of which, I never imagines it would be so....dour.  I wasn't necessarily expecting something like the movies but, yeah, I would leave about 6 seconds there after they wouldn't let her to bring Donns back.

Edited September 23, 2021 by KittenPokerCheater

[theschnauzers]

I’m surprised the shoe was able to tie Donna and Hawk stories together into an opening that may still leave the show a device get Hawk Bach at some future point and not the one way ticket to Ann Afterlife. The show tied together several threads and advanced the overall story by a lot during this hour.

[Primal Slayer]

It was definitely one of the better episodes but I question why Donna was more of a supporting character to everyone else. She is there to advance Rachels storyline, Hanks storyline, and Tims storyline. No mention of how Diana is dealing with Donnas death, how Hippolyta is dealing with her death, how even Donna is dealing with her own death. 

She's been dead for MONTHS compared to these 2 people that have been dead for weeks yet she knows the least about what is going on in this Supernatural rip off of an afterlife. She doesnt question why she hasnt moved on, how her friends or family are doing. Nothing really about her Amazon upbringing that I'd imagine she would've learned growing up on the island. Rachel has been trying to bring her back to life which one would assume messed up Donnas being able to move on but she's in the same place as Hank/Tim. And how did she come back to life but her body disappears from Themiscryia and right to where Bruce is staying just so she can save him from suicide?

Which brings me to Bruce Wayne...what have these writers done to Bruce Wayne? Never in a million years do I see him committing suicide by burning down his castle. The Bruce that this show has introduced really will go down as the worst interpretation of the character in live action history imo which is sad because they've been given access to use him as much as they do. DC is up in arms about how Batman wouldnt go down on Catwoman but they sign off on this? 

It was great seeing Hank again and that he seemingly got a happyish ending? Reunited with his brother only to live in limbo for the rest of their days to fight off soul suckers in a depressing cold forest. Seems more like Hell if you ask me. Dont even get me started how its limbo but there's a bar that people can go to and the soul suckers never went there until now to get Tims.

Sadly the writers being the writers....used no known Amazons but one thing they did do.............the Amazons had children as the main Amazon we interact with reveals she had a daughter she lost in battle. So Diana isn't that special? Or I guess at least isnt sculpted from clay in this unvierse?

[Sakura12]

Yeah, how did Hank who died months after Donna know more about the afterlife. I mean they could've had Donna say that her people have been trying to bring her back and that's why her soul was still floating around in limbo and she just got in the train. 

I think Donna is the only Titan that we have no backstory on. Even her father's death was a Trigon illusion. Yet we spent multiple episodes a season on the back story of Hank and Dawn. Comic Donna has multiple backstories, which one is this show going with? If they don't care about the character, why bring her back at all? 

Also how was Hank planning on coming back to life? His body blew up. 

[UnknownK]

7 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Also how was Hank planning on coming back to life? His body blew up. 

I think that was why the bridge fell apart and cut him off. He would end up a ghost like what they recently did in the final season of Lucifer.

[Primal Slayer]

33 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Yeah, how did Hank who died months after Donna know more about the afterlife. I mean they could've had Donna say that her people have been trying to bring her back and that's why her soul was still floating around in limbo and she just got in the train. 

I think Donna is the only Titan that we have no backstory on. Even her father's death was a Trigon illusion. Yet we spent multiple episodes a season on the back story of Hank and Dawn. Comic Donna has multiple backstories, which one is this show going with? If they don't care about the character, why bring her back at all? 

Also how was Hank planning on coming back to life? His body blew up. 

And why/how did Donna return to the land of the living in her afterlife outfit? If she reinhabited her body....shouldn't she be wearing her clothes that she had when her dead lifeless body was laying on that Themiscryia table?

25 minutes ago, UnknownK said:

I think that was why the bridge fell apart and cut him off. He would end up a ghost like what they recently did in the final season of Lucifer.

But he technically could've just ran across it before anyone else. Or Donna could've Lassoed him. What you say would've made sense in the episode had they addressed it (as they should) but they didnt, they probably didnt even think about it.

[Nellise]

I liked this episode as long as I tried to keep myself from putting any logic to it. (Almost nothing makes any sense in this episode if you think about it for 2 seconds). Hank and Donna were fun together. It was nice seeing Rachel again. I think I was just happy to not see Jason and Scarecrow for an episode. Unfortunately it was all in service of more Bat-drama, but it was nice while it lasted.

 

Edited September 24, 2021 by Nellise

[blackwing]

I agree that this was a great episode, provided we just hand wave the things that don't make sense.  Too funny that after I posted on the prior week's thread that it was great that this season finally got rid of Hank and Dawn that Hank is back.  At least for this episode.  The sad part is that to me, this is the most likeable that Hank and the actor who plays Hank has ever been.  I found myself laughing and actually hoping he would make it back alive too.

Best part of the episode was that we didn't have to suffer through any of the Trifecta of Suck - Crane, Barbara and Jason.  But I did miss Starfire, Blackfire and Conner.

On 9/23/2021 at 7:40 AM, Sakura12 said:

Also how did Donna know Bruce was trying to kill himself? And how did she get there so fast? Did she remember she can fly too? Is she going to tell him to train Tim Drake. When she would probably be the better option to train him to be the next Boy Wonder. 

On 9/23/2021 at 12:08 PM, KittenPokerCheater said:

More Donna please.  I am confused thought- it doesn't seem like Rachel did anything in the episode other than cause some trouble on Themyscira.  Speaking of which, I never imagines it would be so....dour.  I wasn't necessarily expecting something like the movies but, yeah, I would leave about 6 seconds there after they wouldn't let her to bring Donns back.

I am confused as to why Donna materialised in Bruce's remote Irish castle or wherever the hell he was.  Wasn't that whole black and white sequence supposed to represent their souls in the afterlife, and then when they cross the bridge back to the land of the living, their souls go back into their bodies.  Tim went back into his body which was in the ER just moments after he got shot apparently.  Why wouldn't Donna have gone back into her body, wherever the priestesses of Themiscyra moved it to?  It certainly wouldn't have been in some Irish castle of Bruce Wayne's.  And why did she get to bring over her clothes from the afterlife (were those the clothes that she died in?  I thought she was in her Wonder Girl outfit when she died.)

Themyscira seems like it sucks.  It seemed so authoritarian.  I get that the old lady was in charge, but I hated how Rachel's sponsor had to docilely make formal requests and follow some kind of strict procedure code, only to get denied anyways.  Clearly not a very democratic society.

21 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

Which brings me to Bruce Wayne...what have these writers done to Bruce Wayne? Never in a million years do I see him committing suicide by burning down his castle. The Bruce that this show has introduced really will go down as the worst interpretation of the character in live action history imo which is sad because they've been given access to use him as much as they do. DC is up in arms about how Batman wouldnt go down on Catwoman but they sign off on this? 

Agreed.  Other actors can breathe a sigh, whoever it used to be is no longer the Worst. Bruce. Wayne. Ever.  Everything about Iain Glen sucks.  His terrible accent, his ancientness, his manner of speaking, and then the things this Bruce is doing.  They should have cast a younger actor in his mid 40s who could play a more believable Bruce.  I don't think Bruce would ever have tried to kill himself.  And for what?  Because of Jason?

[MarkHB]

My theory, and it's only a theory: the train is Purgatory, and a soul has to spend a certain amount of time there in expiation of its sins before moving on to "its destination" (i.e., Heaven). Tim was relatively innocent, so he would have been allowed off fairly quickly. Donna, having spent most of her life as an Amazon warrior, had more guilt on her soul and had to spend more time on the train.  "Off the train" is a form of Limbo, neither here nor there.  We saw nothing of Hell, but I'll torture the analogy and say it's a baggage claim carousel with no seats and they're always "still unloading".... for eternity... and your bags never show up.

Going further... I think the Amazon ritual didn't work because Donna was, initially, unwilling to return, and I bet that goes for most souls who find peace in the afterlife. The Lazarus Pit brings you back whether you want to come or not.  And Donna was brought back in the Scottish castle because "Someone" felt she was needed there.

I'm very glad Donna agrees with all of us that her death at the carnival was stupid. I wonder if that was planned initially, or just the writers getting meta. And I'm also very glad that Hank was reunited with Don at the end. And make it triply glad that I didn't watch the "Previously" clip before watching the show, because that shit telegraphed everything.

Damn, Teagan got tall. That formerly little kid is going to be quite the Raven.

[KittenPokerCheater]

I like your theory @MarkHB

[Sakura12]

I think they should've shown Hank trying to to jump across but get put back on the other side to show he can't come back without a body. Or at least go with it was easier for Donna and Tim because people were trying to bring them back at the same time. 

Having watched the episode again it kind of looked like Donna was teleported to wherever Bruce was. She showed up in the exact room that was on fire. They probably won't explain that. It was kind of funny that she picked Bruce up like he was a sack of potatoes. 

[millennium]

On 9/23/2021 at 3:55 PM, Primal Slayer said:

 this Supernatural rip off of an afterlife ...

Which brings me to Bruce Wayne...what have these writers done to Bruce Wayne? Never in a million years do I see him committing suicide by burning down his castle. The Bruce that this show has introduced really will go down as the worst interpretation of the character in live action history imo which is sad because they've been given access to use him as much as they do. DC is up in arms about how Batman wouldnt go down on Catwoman but they sign off on this? 

 

Whoa, whoa ... Dean was tooling around in Baby in summertime.   Hank was tooling around in Baby-ish in winter.  Totally different, see? 😁

re: Bruce Wayne.  Until Frank Miller's regrettable trilogy of the mid-1980s, Batman was never regarded as psychotic.  He was the World's Greatest Detective and a decent guy carrying on his crusade despite being haunted by the pain of childhood trauma.  He never wanted to be/kill/marry the Joker or any of his foes.

Thanks to the folks at DC who saw there was money to be made on Miller's revisionist bullshit, Batman over the past 30 years or so has been accused of nearly every psychosis/neurosis/personality disorder in the DSM-V.    Now to this we can add suicidal.  

I watched and thought This would never happen.  No version of Batman would ever kill himself.   The writers apparently have grown weary of the Batman plotline and are just phoning it in now. 

Being in the minority who hasn't minded Iain Glen's Bruce Wayne, I was sorry to see him receive such shabby treatment.   If this version of Bruce does go down as the worst-ever, I don't think it's the actor's fault.   The writers suck.

Edited September 25, 2021 by millennium

[Affogato]

On 9/23/2021 at 1:08 PM, KittenPokerCheater said:

 I am confused thought- it doesn't seem like Rachel did anything in the episode other than cause some trouble on Themyscira. 

This is how Rachel becomes able to control her inner self and also learn some hand to hand combat and how to take orders--this gave her some time to train. She needed it. While she did this she also kept Donna from moving on--not a wild guess, the teacher was trying to nudge her into letting Donna go.

Was 'the bridge' a one time structure, is it now gone for good? I wonder if it has something to do with the lazarus pit as well?

Hawk and brother Dove did make a nice tribute to supernatural.

6 hours ago, millennium said:

 

re: Bruce Wayne.  Until Frank Miller's regrettable trilogy of the mid-1980s, Batman was never regarded as psychotic.  He was the World's Greatest Detective and a decent guy carrying on his crusade despite being haunted by the pain of childhood trauma.  He never wanted to be/kill/marry the Joker or any of his foes.

ght This would never happen.  No version of Batman would ever kill himself.   The writers apparently have grown weary of the Batman plotline and are just phoning it in now.

I think Miller is a great writer but I don't connect with his stories very much (mostly because I'm female and over the years, just tired of it), however I do like comic book stories that dig into and root their stories in reality. If you do this they end up being fairly grim, but otherwise the fantasy hurts my metaphorical teeth. I'm totally a grimdark fan.

I don't think Batman was ever psychotic in Miller's work. (Maybe Alan Moore). He was as he always is a traumatized and frightened boy who wets himself at the sight of bats who uses his considerable intellect and fortune and determination to make himself into a person who faces and conquers his fears and makes other people wet themselves. His identity is as Batman, Bruce is a mask he wears. This Batman has lost that identity. He is older, it has become apparent that he may be enabling the villains of Gotham, he has failed Dick and Jason. He has given Gotham over to Dick to straighten out and maybe he has willed his fortune to provide for the city (schools, hospitals, etc) instead of providing him with toys and surveillance (we'll see). Now standing as only Bruce, suicide makes a lot of sense as a choice. I'm betting he won't make it twice, though. Donna will give him Drake and Batman wouldn't do that to Tim.

This by the way is why Batman and Superman are such good foils, and have been forever. Superman is Clark Kent and when he puts on the cape he still makes the decisions and acts as Clark acts. Batman is the opposite. They are like bookends. Have been since very early on, can't be blamed on Miller.

 

Of course it is still possible in this story that this Bruce is the Joker. They can find a pig somewhere he beat to death to get blood on the tire iron. I think this would be amazing but I honestly don't think this will happen. Too much for a story that isn't really about the Batman, and is more about the batman's children. The Titans are the batman's children in many ways, too. Many are sidekicks and the sidekicks were made because Dick was so popular. If there hadn't been batman and robin, no aquaman and aqualad.

If Donna's upset he thinks she's thirty how old are they supposed to be? she should be of an age with Dick and Barbara and Hawk and Dove, I'd think. Maybe not, though.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Affogato

[Sakura12]

20 minutes ago, Affogato said:

If Donna's upset he thinks she's thirty how old are they supposed to be? she should be of an age with Dick and Barbara and Hawk and Dove, I'd think. Maybe not, though.

I think the older Titans are early to mid 30's. With Donna being a little older then Dick. Since she had that older, smarter, prettier line. They were going with Tim thinks 30 is old. So to him she's Miss Troy. 

[millennium]

2 hours ago, Affogato said:

I think Miller is a great writer but I don't connect with his stories very much (mostly because I'm female and over the years, just tired of it), however I do like comic book stories that dig into and root their stories in reality. If you do this they end up being fairly grim, but otherwise the fantasy hurts my metaphorical teeth. I'm totally a grimdark fan.

I don't think Batman was ever psychotic in Miller's work. (Maybe Alan Moore). He was as he always is a traumatized and frightened boy who wets himself at the sight of bats who uses his considerable intellect and fortune and determination to make himself into a person who faces and conquers his fears and makes other people wet themselves. His identity is as Batman, Bruce is a mask he wears. This Batman has lost that identity. He is older, it has become apparent that he may be enabling the villains of Gotham, he has failed Dick and Jason. He has given Gotham over to Dick to straighten out and maybe he has willed his fortune to provide for the city (schools, hospitals, etc) instead of providing him with toys and surveillance (we'll see). Now standing as only Bruce, suicide makes a lot of sense as a choice. I'm betting he won't make it twice, though. Donna will give him Drake and Batman wouldn't do that to Tim.

 

I don't mind grim stories as long as there is something redemptive at the end (it's comic books, after all).   Miller's trilogy was intended as a futuristic, Elseworldish tale.  Instead DC turned it into a template for the character, almost like they decided to reverse-engineer Batman.  How do we get Batman from who he is now to the character Miller envisioned?   And it has been a free-for-all ever since.

The way you described Bruce's deterioration does make his suicide attempt sound plausible, but the Batman I grew up with never would have lost that identity in the first place.   The Titans Bruce/Batman had me right up until he gave up.   It's one of the reasons I think the Christopher Nolan Dark Knight trilogy was a failure -- Batman quits at the end.   I don't watch Batwoman because it is premised on the idea that Batman has abandoned Gotham, another scenario I must reject.  Batman always fights his way through, he never turns his back, that's why he's a superhero.

[Affogato]

18 hours ago, millennium said:

I don't mind grim stories as long as there is something redemptive at the end (it's comic books, after all).   Miller's trilogy was intended as a futuristic, Elseworldish tale.  Instead DC turned it into a template for the character, almost like they decided to reverse-engineer Batman.  How do we get Batman from who he is now to the character Miller envisioned?   And it has been a free-for-all ever since.

The way you described Bruce's deterioration does make his suicide attempt sound plausible, but the Batman I grew up with never would have lost that identity in the first place.   The Titans Bruce/Batman had me right up until he gave up.   It's one of the reasons I think the Christopher Nolan Dark Knight trilogy was a failure -- Batman quits at the end.   I don't watch Batwoman because it is premised on the idea that Batman has abandoned Gotham, another scenario I must reject.  Batman always fights his way through, he never turns his back, that's why he's a superhero.

I think what we are getting her is Miller's Dark Knight ending. Tim is too old for Bruce to adopt but he needs a hero and a mentor, and Bruce will rise up to that challenge. Maybe Molly and Jason and other homeless, rudderless kids will be included. I remember when I read it the first time, long ago, I thought that yes, those were the best relationships Bruce/Batman ever had, the mentoring ones. I guess I am interested in Batman as a fairly complex and not necessarily happy person, less as a hero. Barbara, who is completely herself, whatever costume she is or isn't wearing at the time, whether she can walk or can't walk, is closer to my personal idea of a hero.

I hope this takes us into the middle of season 4 because we've had such a long buildup and dropping the Gotham arc at the end of this season would be hurried. I also anticipate something in the next bit will convince Barbara she needs to be Oracle and that Dick's leaving will cause them to separate. I wonder if they go to Bludhaven?

[Wonderlad71]

Thank goodness this show gets Donna Troy right (although there is still so much they can do with her). Connor Leslie is just lovely.

Not sure what in the world they are doing with Bruce Wayne. Although I too think that Iain Glen is well cast as an older Bruce (ala Kingdom Come).

Edited September 28, 2021 by Wonderlad71
spelling

[Bruinsfan]

I thought it was weird the way the show presented the society on Themiscyra—as if it's an ancient culture but the inhabitants are mortals many generations removed from its founding. In the source material the Amazons are immortal—there aren't sketchily recorded legends of the island's founding because everyone around today except Diana and Donna has personal memories of what went down 3,000+ years ago.

[Affogato]

On 9/28/2021 at 11:26 AM, Bruinsfan said:

I thought it was weird the way the show presented the society on Themiscyra—as if it's an ancient culture but the inhabitants are mortals many generations removed from its founding. In the source material the Amazons are immortal—there aren't sketchily recorded legends of the island's founding because everyone around today except Diana and Donna has personal memories of what went down 3,000+ years ago.

Well. If we follow the movie immortality was nixed when Trevor landed on the isle.  Aphrodite's law states they are immortal as long as no man steps on the island. The question is where does the next generation we see here come from? 

Edited September 29, 2021 by Affogato

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 9/25/2021 at 4:19 AM, millennium said:

Whoa, whoa ... Dean was tooling around in Baby in summertime.   Hank was tooling around in Baby-ish in winter.  Totally different, see? 😁

re: Bruce Wayne.  Until Frank Miller's regrettable trilogy of the mid-1980s, Batman was never regarded as psychotic.  He was the World's Greatest Detective and a decent guy carrying on his crusade despite being haunted by the pain of childhood trauma.  He never wanted to be/kill/marry the Joker or any of his foes.

Thanks to the folks at DC who saw there was money to be made on Miller's revisionist bullshit, Batman over the past 30 years or so has been accused of nearly every psychosis/neurosis/personality disorder in the DSM-V.    Now to this we can add suicidal.  

I watched and thought This would never happen.  No version of Batman would ever kill himself.   The writers apparently have grown weary of the Batman plotline and are just phoning it in now. 

Being in the minority who hasn't minded Iain Glen's Bruce Wayne, I was sorry to see him receive such shabby treatment.   If this version of Bruce does go down as the worst-ever, I don't think it's the actor's fault.   The writers suck.

Frank Miller's Batman seemed to have a death wish for most of Dark Knight Returns. which was why he kept thinking to himself "This would be a ______ death." So I don't know if it's altogether new as to him being suicidal. (Also, mildly hate going all Comic Book Guy but can't....resist, DKR was four parts). 

Anyway, when I first was watching I missed Bruce dousing the place with gasoline (doing other stuff) so I didn't get that he was trying to commit suicide until I came here.

I could buy that Bruce, driven to despair over the supposed loss of Jason and breaking his vow to not kill over the Joker, could be suicidal.

The problems I have include:

1. One would have to presume that Bruce Wayne had a will in place long long ago. He's the goddamn Batman so he plans for everything. Even if he were just a billionaire playboy, it's pretty inconceivable that he would not have one. So is he revising his will just now? What for?

2. Why hasn't anybody let Bruce know that Jason is alive, that he's been compromised by Crane, that Crane knows the Bat-secret, and that Jason has broken bad? Or if someone has, why hasn't a) it been shown and b) Bruce gotten the heck back to Gotham to try to straighten things out?

3. Given that Batman is suicidal, why burn down a million dollar castle rather than any of the many methods of suicide available to him (drugs, wrist-slashing, etc.)? I mean, other than there needing to be a way to intervene to stop him from carrying it out?

4. How the frak does Donna Troy somehow know that Bruce is suicidal, let alone manage to get from Themyscira to wherever Bruce is keeping himself, in time to intervene?

[millennium]

30 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

(Also, mildly hate going all Comic Book Guy but can't....resist, DKR was four parts). 

My mistake.   I read 'em when they came out mid-80's, Mylar'ed them and put them in a storage container.   Haven't looked at them since.   Not that I need to, considering the story refuses to die.

I prefer the Bruce/Batman of Batman Beyond to anything Miller created.

Edited October 2, 2021 by millennium

[Affogato]

22 hours ago, millennium said:

My mistake.   I read 'em when they came out mid-80's, Mylar'ed them and put them in a storage container.   Haven't looked at them since.   Not that I need to, considering the story refuses to die.

I prefer the Bruce/Batman of Batman Beyond to anything Miller created.

Batman Beyond is the only Batman I actually like.

[Affogato]

On 10/2/2021 at 4:06 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

Frank Miller's Batman seemed to have a death wish for most of Dark Knight Returns. which was why he kept thinking to himself "This would be a ______ death." So I don't know if it's altogether new as to him being suicidal. (Also, mildly hate going all Comic Book Guy but can't....resist, DKR was four parts). 

Anyway, when I first was watching I missed Bruce dousing the place with gasoline (doing other stuff) so I didn't get that he was trying to commit suicide until I came here.

I could buy that Bruce, driven to despair over the supposed loss of Jason and breaking his vow to not kill over the Joker, could be suicidal.

The problems I have include:

1. One would have to presume that Bruce Wayne had a will in place long long ago. He's the goddamn Batman so he plans for everything. Even if he were just a billionaire playboy, it's pretty inconceivable that he would not have one. So is he revising his will just now? What for?

2. Why hasn't anybody let Bruce know that Jason is alive, that he's been compromised by Crane, that Crane knows the Bat-secret, and that Jason has broken bad? Or if someone has, why hasn't a) it been shown and b) Bruce gotten the heck back to Gotham to try to straighten things out?

3. Given that Batman is suicidal, why burn down a million dollar castle rather than any of the many methods of suicide available to him (drugs, wrist-slashing, etc.)? I mean, other than there needing to be a way to intervene to stop him from carrying it out?

4. How the frak does Donna Troy somehow know that Bruce is suicidal, let alone manage to get from Themyscira to wherever Bruce is keeping himself, in time to intervene?

It has been a looong time and my copy is taped into a box but I seem to remember that the point of the dark knight was that it starts out with Bruce being suicidal and ends with him finding a purpose and reason to go on.

We could theorize that the castle Bruce burns had some special function--maybe the center of the 'eye in the sky' operation that the computer Oracle was part of (I know they have a comic book name but I don't know much about it, you wouldn't want everything centered in Gotham, though.) and he didn't want it to fall into the wrong hands after his death. Maybe this will come to light as part of the denouement. No, Oracle can't be fixed, because I've destroyed the controls and self destructed the satellites. Because being a supervillain for good may be a bad idea.

Also, why would he want an easy death?

Of course he'd have to make sure everything is destroyed and then burn the rest to make it harder to duplicate.

Even if he decides not to kill himself he still has to deal with his doubts about whether he is doing good by being the batman. He enables the villains of Gotham and frankly, if he learns Jason is alive, there is another one he's enabled.  He has to have a compelling reason to return and he would need to think Gotham is better off with him than without him. There isn't any evidence that Gotham is better off with him than without him at this point. Batman alive doesn't mean batman, returning to Gotham.

He has also, or is believed to have, killed the Joker. We didn't see the body. There is that lazarus pit. Crane is an idiot. Anyway, Bruce may not want to deal with that at this moment. Jail, trials, paperwork.

I'm sure he had a will, but probably wanted to change it. I'm guessing this one changed the focus. Maybe he made provisions for Dick to be and phase out Batman. Maybe he shifted money away from Jason. Maybe he made provision to rehabilitate the inhabitants of Arkham and prepare the city for the loss of their vigilante, funding even more of the schools and social services.

I suspect the bridge of death works in mysterious ways and just dumped Donna there in time to save Bruce.

 

 

 

Edited October 3, 2021 by Affogato

[Quark]

Good episode. Great to see Donna again and I'm glad she is alive now.

Very confused by the ending with Hank and the new (old?) Dove. Who is this guy? Have we seen him before in the show?

Can't say I care about Tim, he irritates me.

Really not liking Batman.

[Sakura12]

2 hours ago, Quark said:

Very confused by the ending with Hank and the new (old?) Dove. Who is this guy? Have we seen him before in the show?

That's his brother Don that died when he got hit by a car along with Dawn's mother. That's how they met.