S02.E12: Initiate Self-Destruct

[Trini]

Ryan is faced with a difficult decision that could expose her as Batwoman, creating a rift in the Bat Team. Meanwhile, Black Mask's (guest star Peter Outerbridge) plans for Kate Kane (Wallis Day) begin to unfold. Alice is reunited with someone from her past, and Sophie must decide where her loyalty lies.

Glen Winter directed the episode with a story by Zack Siddiqui and teleplay by Jerry Shandy.

Airdate: 5/2/21

Edited April 29, 2021 by Trini

[scarynikki12]

I was wondering when Roman was going to remove the mask. So he’s turning Kate into his daughter Circe? That’s appropriately villainous.

Awww Alice didn’t get to do the Walk of Shame. Still applauding her for hooking up with Ocean.

Russell the Crow is arrogantly hot.

Ryan totally does Oliver’s Arrow to the Moon move. Except she’s not using arrows so...Grapple to the Moon?

Ha even Alice loves the Batmobile.

Look, Ryan, you’re right but you’re both on contract so you might as well get to know Alice since neither of you is going anywhere. It’ll be fun!

It’s a good thing that Jacob’s in the midst of his Snake Bite addiction because Mary was not at all subtle handing over Luke’s device. I’m glad her clinic is legit and not just a way to distract him.

Ryan vs Circe and Alice vs Circe were born excellent fights. And Circe is creeping the fuck out of Alice which is fun. 

Angelique in Witness Protection is a good choice. Gets rid of her and leaves it open for her to return one day.

[Primal Slayer]

Wow this was the best episode of the season! Everything clicked, all the storylines ran together smoothly, all of the "team ups" were very delightful.

Alice/Ryan were funny as hell to watch together, loved their dynamic. Batmobile scene was gold.

Mary/Sophie were fun, when Mary goes to the Crows office, pure gold. Mary finally gets a good storyline and plenty to do once she knows who Batwoman is.

What they are doing with Kate is EXACTLY what they should've done with Sara back in S4 of Arrow instead of the ridiculous Laurel lazarus pit storyline. It was nice to see how formidable of a threat she was to Ryan. More villains should be like that in general instead of all these red shirts who might as well lay down once Batwoman approaches. 

Ryan leaving Alice to die...wow. Sure I get it but girl you better make sure that she is dead cause if she aint...now you have Alice on your back again. I'm surprised they have Kate so brainwashed that she has zero twintuation with Alice and vice versa. 

If they were going to kill Alice off, this probably would've been the perfect way to do it. Kate unwillingly killing her sister and Batwoman leaving her to die sets a tone.

[Lantern7]

Ryan and Alice did make for a fun team. Naturally, that didn't last . . . but it was Ryan that walked away, leaving Alice to die at the hands of Black Mask's newest goon. Who is Kate Kane. Who was Batwoman. Who has a mask attached made from the coffin of the girl whose place she's taking. Hey, this series is now following Legends of Tomorrow. Veering into the insane is the right call.

Fun to watch Sophie run interference, knowing that Ryan is Batwoman. And, naturally, Jacob left a Snake Bite injector in the garbage out for anyone to find. I know, it's his office, and he can black it out at any time, but you have to figure someone cleans the place up.

Mary is still a treasure. The guy investigating Batwoman's identity can die any week now.

[Chicago Redshirt]

The good

1. Alice was a lot more fun this episode than she has been for most of this season.

2. More Mary than it seems like we've had in a while

3. Kate's  debut as a villain went pretty well

4. Sophie was mostly decent and useful for a change

Things I wish they would have changed

1. Things would have been so much better if Sophie had just frigging admitted to Ryan that she knew Batwoman's identity instead of playing coy. Or at least that they gave some reason for Sophie to have played coy.

2. It seemed like they were playing the clinic scene as though Mary was seeing that something was wrong with Jake So it was jarring that when Sophie comes to talk to her about the possibility that Jake is using Snakebite to have Mary be in denial about that as a possibility.

3. Sophie probably should have taken the possibility that Jake is compromised by Snakebite addiction a lot more seriously than just telling his daughter to talk to him about it. The notion that Jake's decisionmaking could be influenced by his being on the drug, or that he could be actively colluding with the FFS are scary prospects. And the PR of the person in charge of getting Snakebite off the street actually being a user should be worrisome. I think it's time for Sophie to stop being an analogue to Jim Gordon in Batman: Year One/the first two Chris Nolan movies and just join Team Batwoman full-time. The Crows are beyond salvaging. 

4. I wish Luke could have come up with the solution to the Batwoman identity reveal. Hacking into the national database and taking Ryan's DNA profile out of it would probably be something he could do (or have that hacker person from S1 do)

5. Echoing the moment from Batman Begins when Bats was like I don't have to save you doesn't make much sense in this context. There's a reason why Bruce doesn't save R'as -- they are in an emergency situation and Bruce barely can escape with his own life. As presented,  Ryan easily could have thrown a Batarang at Kate while Kate was choking Alice out. And she has every reason to take care of Kate -- this is the first time she has confronted a member of the FFS who seemingly can beat her in 1-on-1 fighting. Just letting her go on her merry way is a bad idea.

6. Killing Ocean and Angelique immediately after they made the how-to-make Snakebite video is not the greatest of ideas. You haven't even had  a chance to see if they didn't mess around in making it, or if there are not complications to making it that the video would not cover.

[Trini]

So some of Batwoman and Alice's banter was fun - LOL at them dishing about their relationships - but it still makes zero sense that Alice is still going on murder sprees with no consequences. Even Ryan leaving her to "die" didn't work for me because she was letting another criminal go on a murder spree. There's got to be a line somewhere.

Poor Ocean, though. They didn't even let us know if he survived getting shot. (I'm sure he's fine.) at least he and Alice had... one night together. Still kind of rooting for them, but they're not a 'happily ever after' couple at all.

Nice to see Sophie with a plot. Her being the Bat Team's inside man is what should have been happening since season 1. I wonder how much longer she's going to keep hinting that she knows Ryan is Batwoman and/or nudging them to tell her Ryan is Batwoman. Might be fun to see who cracks first.

I do wonder why Luke didn't also think to scrub Ryan's file in addition to corrupting the DNA sample results.

I don't get what going on with Black Mask/his daughter/Kate. Just a whole lot of nonsensical stuff. And I'm pretty sure it's not going to make more sense even with more information. I guess I'll just wait until Kate gets her own mind back.

So Sionis' daughter was in Arkham? Is she a character from the comics?

Well, I'm glad someone's found out about Jacob's addiction. At least he'll have an arc to share with Mary and Sophie.

[possibilities]

I honestly don't get why Sophie doesn't tell them she knows Ryan is Batwoman.

The Crow who took the blood sample would be a good guy if this show was the usual detective show where you want competence, but they did a good job of making him an unlikable prick, so it would be easier to root against him.

I can't get past Ocean being the source of Snakebite. It makes him evil, and thus a reasonable match for Alice, but it doesn't make him likable. He's weirdly wimpy for a supervillian's love interest.

 

[tennisgurl]

Instead of playing coy, why doesn't Sophie just tell the BatCrew that she knows Ryan is Batwoman? I do like this plot for her though, Sophie as the teams women on the inside is one of the best things they could do for her as a character, she really needed something more to do. Good thing they made the Crow who was looking into Batwoman's DNA a total prick, or else we might have to feel kind of bad that he got a bit screwed over for doing his job and being the most competent person in the office. 

Pretty good episode, the Ryan/Alice team up was fun, and while Ryan leaving Alice to die was pretty cold I am really glad that she isn't totally cool with Alice now that they have similar goals. The show seems like they're definitely setting up Alice becoming more of an anti hero than a supervillain, and I don't totally hate that idea but if they want to make us cheer for her redemption she really has to stop murdering people and doing villainous stuff. I am also glad that Mary's revamped clinic is for real, Jacob's complaints did raise a few good points about the hygiene of the place, it being understaffed, and Mary not being a licensed doctor. So now she can still keep the things that are important to her, like not reporting patients to the police and not requiring insurance, but in a safer and cleaner environment. Also very glad that Sophie and Mary have caught onto Jacobs addiction, makes sense as the guy is not being even a little subtle about it. The only reason no one has probably noticed before is because he doesn't seem to have many people in his life besides the people who work under him and Mary, who he hasn't been talking to. 

So Black mask decided to turn Kate into his dead daughter Circe, that's certainly suitably creepy. Poor Kate, now she's the one who got kidnapped, tortured, and had her identity stolen and morphed into a supervillain, this family just has zero luck. 

I am not a fan of Angelique but I can see why Ryan is still hung up on her so I am glad she made it. Her going into witness protection was a good call, that way she can leave the show and Ryan can find a better love interest but she can still come back later if they want more drama. 

[Quark]

Great episode. Alice was a hoot.

And you know that Black Mask's daughter/Kate is strange if even Alice is creeped out by her.

[thuganomics85]

Didn't predict that Black Mask/Roman was going to use Kate's body to basically bring back his daughter, thanks to Enigma's memory tricks and using a cast of Circe/his daughter's face to cover her face (because of course he would have that!)  I'm sure Kate's real memories are still in there and will come back at some point, but I'm interested in seeing her in the antagonist role.  Especially since she is a massive physical threat with the way she handled both Ryan and Alice with ease.  Didn't get enough yet to judge how Wallis Day will fare in the role, but I'm optimistic she will do well (I thought she was one of the better things about Krypton.)

The Ryan/Alice team-up was fun, but I'm glad that they still remember that Alice and her goons killed Ryan's mom, and there is just no way in hell they would ever be buddy-buddy.  I can't even blame Ryan for leaving Alice to basically die (even though Alice saved her earlier) because of it, but, of course, Alice ends up simply being captured, because Roman has "need of her."  You just don't that Alice will make Ryan regret that decision somehow.

Sophie teaming with the Curtis/Mary was also good and allowed her to get more involved with the main story.  But it looks like she's keeping her knowledge of Batwoman's identity a secret for now, so I'm curious to see how that will play out.

Oh, Mary!  I'm glad the clinic seems to be working out for you now, but you really need to prepare yourself because, yes, Jacob is, in fact, addicted to Snake Bite.

I'm sure Ocean will be okay, but it's still weird they didn't check on him after he got shot.

Bye for now, Angelique!

[RobertDeSneero]

If I were Sophie, I wouldn't admit that I knew who Batwoman was.  She should reassess and go check out Ryan in civilian mode.  Sophie knows they have an antagonistic relationship.  She needs to build trust.  And they were in a time crunch where arguing about the how and of why of finding out secret identities would have been a costly distraction.

Anyways, Sophie kind of wants to be part of the Bat Team as she gets disillusioned with the Crows.  But she wants to earn it and be asked, not barge in and blackmail her way in by being able to threaten to reveal who Batwoman is.

Besides, we need that cute scene where Sophie visits the bar and drops some double entendre that Ryan interprets as weird flirting.

If Alice remembers Cora, has she already figured out who the new Batwoman is?

[Stardancer Supreme]

But how would Alice know Ryan's mother's name? She showed up after her goons killed her.  But yes, I am glad that Ryan would not let Alice off that particular hook.

It will take Sophie a while to get out of the Crow gang.  At least she is now beginning to see the bigger picture and show that she is smarter than the average Crow. 

 

[Chicago Redshirt]

7 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

If I were Sophie, I wouldn't admit that I knew who Batwoman was.  She should reassess and go check out Ryan in civilian mode.  Sophie knows they have an antagonistic relationship.  She needs to build trust.  And they were in a time crunch where arguing about the how and of why of finding out secret identities would have been a costly distraction.

Anyways, Sophie kind of wants to be part of the Bat Team as she gets disillusioned with the Crows.  But she wants to earn it and be asked, not barge in and blackmail her way in by being able to threaten to reveal who Batwoman is.

Besides, we need that cute scene where Sophie visits the bar and drops some double entendre that Ryan interprets as weird flirting.

If Alice remembers Cora, has she already figured out who the new Batwoman is?

One way for Sophie to earn trust would be to reach out to Ryan and say "Listen, I know you think of me as Crow-phie, but I have come to see the good that you do as Batwoman and the problems with the Crows. I will show you that I've got your back as an inside person in the Crows. I know it will take some time for you to rely on me after the shady shiznit I have pulled with both you as yourself and as Batwoman. I know we have our differences, but I'm willing to give it a try if you are."

One way to not build trust is to sit on the secret identity because if/when it comes out that Sophie knew and acted as though she didn't....well, obviously some might see that as deceptive and untrustworthy.

I don't think letting Team Batwoman know Sophie knew would be a distraction at all. Indeed, the only reason that Batwoman's secret is safe (at least for now) is that Sophie knew the identity and was able to delete Ryan's record. Again, this is probably something Luke should have thought of,  considering revealing Ryan to Sophie the lesser of the evils to all Crows knowing Ryan's secret identity. 

[sugarbaker design]

As always, I'm left with questions.  Does Kate/Circe still have Kate's face?  Or is disfigured?  Or doctored to look like Circe?  Circe does seem very formidable in one-on-one combat, but are those Kat's fighting skills, or the original Circe's fighting skills?  Is Circe an established character in the DC universe?  The way Circe handled those weapons reminded me of Elektra.

Edited May 4, 2021 by sugarbaker design

[Chicago Redshirt]

16 hours ago, sugarbaker design said:

As always, I'm left with questions.  Does Kate/Circe still have Kate's face?  Or is disfigured?  Or doctored to look like Circe?  Circe does seem very formidable in one-on-one combat, but are those Kat's fighting skills, or the original Circe's fighting skills?  Is Circe an established character in the DC universe?  The way Circe handled those weapons reminded me of Elektra.

I think we were told that Kate was disfigured in the accident and was given a new face. Presumably, it is a face similar to Circe's.

Presumably, we are seeing Kate's fighting skills with Circe's personality/

According to this, there was a Circe character in the Bat-comics associated with Black Mask, but she was not his daughter:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/circe/4005-77549/

[sugarbaker design]

43 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I think we were told that Kate was disfigured in the accident and was given a new face. Presumably, it is a face similar to Circe's.

Yes, that's right!

 

43 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Presumably, we are seeing Kate's fighting skills with Circe's personality/

Gotcha.

[Trini]

Wait - didn't Julia say they found "body parts" that matched Kate in a previous episode? Circe/Kate seems to be in perfect fighting shape; what parts did they find??

[scarynikki12]

Maybe Kate's missing her spleen and a kidney?

[Chicago Redshirt]

21 hours ago, Trini said:

Wait - didn't Julia say they found "body parts" that matched Kate in a previous episode? Circe/Kate seems to be in perfect fighting shape; what parts did they find??

I don't think Julia ever said what body parts were found.

It's certainly possible that whatever body parts were found were plants and the DNA match to Kate was either completely faked, or samples of real Kate DNA were used to prove that parts from someone else were Kate.

It's also possible that real Kate parts were found (for instance, whatever happened to her original face) and that either she has replaced them or regrown them. We live in a universe where there is super-science, Lazarus Pits, Desert Roses that can reverse death, among other things. She could just have a very good set of prosthetics.

[legaleagle53]

6 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

It's certainly possible that whatever body parts were found were plants and the DNA match to Kate was either completely faked, or samples of real Kate DNA were used to prove that parts from someone else were Kate.

 

And there is in-show canon precedent for that. It's how Mary's mother was able to convince Jacob to finally abandon his search for Beth, accept her death as an established fact, and move on.

[Trini]

10 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

And there is in-show canon precedent for that. It's how Mary's mother was able to convince Jacob to finally abandon his search for Beth, accept her death as an established fact, and move on.

Yes, but our Bat Team knows this. So they should know to double and triple check the results and do their own analysis.

I agree the evidence could be faked, etc.; but I'm going to need them to explain that exactly since everyone should know better.

[possibilities]

I'm guessing fingers or toes.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 5/9/2021 at 9:38 AM, Trini said:

Yes, but our Bat Team knows this. So they should know to double and triple check the results and do their own analysis.

I agree the evidence could be faked, etc.; but I'm going to need them to explain that exactly since everyone should know better.

I believe Julia said that the results were double- or triple-checked.

But the efforts to fake things could have just been that good, or like someone said, the body part(s) that was/were recovered might have been something like toes or fingers that would be substantial yet not disabling.

[John Potts]

I’m glad Ryan made the heroic choice of protecting Angelique rather than herself. Though wasn’t the obvious solution be to delete Ryan from the system entirely? Sure, that would be hard to do (and wouldn’t eliminate any physical files, but who checks them?) but it’s well within the magical abilities of comic book science.

Alice actually had something to do! I’m guessing she’ll uncover what’s happened to Kate in captivity. And be pissed! Though I laughed at:

Ryan: You’re in love with him!

Alice: I put a knife in his gut!

Ryan: From you, that’s not a no.

On 5/3/2021 at 5:52 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

It seemed like they were playing the clinic scene as though Mary was seeing that something was wrong with Jake So it was jarring that when Sophie comes to talk to her about the possibility that Jake is using Snakebite to have Mary be in denial about that as a possibility.

Yeah, that was badly done. I could buy Mary not noticing in the moment (she was kinda worried about her mission and wants the Clinic reopened) but in retrospect she should have recognised Jake was acting weird.

On 5/3/2021 at 2:59 AM, scarynikki12 said:

I was wondering when Roman was going to remove the mask. So he’s turning Kate into his daughter Circe? That’s appropriately villainous.

But also dumb. Her real personality will inevitably re-emerge and bring him down (I'm guessing Alice will figure out who she is and will rescue them both).