S05.E12: Both Things Can Be True

[Jeddah]

57 minutes ago, CrystalBlue said:

ETA: I love Beth and trust that if she were getting Tess ready for a date by helping her with her hair, she'd be focusing on the hairstyling and not the sexual preference/orientation of her daughter.

Then why did she specifically mention helping Tess get ready for dates as something she can’t do anymore?

Edited April 28, 2021 by Jeddah

[OdinO.]

11 hours ago, Jeddah said:

Then why did she specifically mention helping Tess get ready for dates as something she can’t do anymore?

Because the writers suck and can't keep up with all the woke-ness.

[Trillian]

13 hours ago, Jeddah said:

That’s definitely not true for everyone. I really can’t see how helping your daughter get ready for a date with a boy is different than helping her get ready for a date with a girl. I think most parents really do just want their kids to be happy. I live in the South, so it’s not like I live in some liberal bubble, but I know plenty of parents who accept their LGBT kids wholeheartedly and didn’t need time to get used to it. They don’t view their kid any differently now. They wouldn’t think twice about helping their kid get ready for a date. I would have thought that’s how Beth would be, and I’m disappointed the writers went in this direction instead.

Everyone’s different, of course, but I don’t think it’s unusual both to accept one’s child wholeheartedly and still to have to re-orient one’s thinking. As the episode title says, both things can be true. I can see Beth having some thought of helping her daughters get ready for a date, while giggling together about the discomfort of the young man waiting downstairs being politely grilled by Randall as to his suitability for his daughter. It’s a charming notion that probably doesn’t happen much anymore (assuming it ever did), but it might be a version of what she did or had wanted to do with her own parents. And she pictured her daughter walking down the aisle with a man like Beth’s own husband or father waiting for her. Being Beth, she’ll reorient quickly now that she’s realized, and the dream image in her head will be replaced by a new one. But I don’t think it’s bad or homophobic to have those thoughts. Just human. 

[qtpye]

2 hours ago, Trillian said:

Everyone’s different, of course, but I don’t think it’s unusual both to accept one’s child wholeheartedly and still to have to re-orient one’s thinking. As the episode title says, both things can be true. I can see Beth having some thought of helping her daughters get ready for a date, while giggling together about the discomfort of the young man waiting downstairs being politely grilled by Randall as to his suitability for his daughter. It’s a charming notion that probably doesn’t happen much anymore (assuming it ever did), but it might be a version of what she did or had wanted to do with her own parents. And she pictured her daughter walking down the aisle with a man like Beth’s own husband or father waiting for her. Being Beth, she’ll reorient quickly now that she’s realized, and the dream image in her head will be replaced by a new one. But I don’t think it’s bad or homophobic to have those thoughts. Just human. 

My parents were immigrants who totally did not understand that I was not living my life according to their expectations. My mother actually went into mourning when I decided to go to a well regarded state school for college (I got a partial scholarship) rather than a private university. She would say things to me "I ALWAYS pictured you at Harvard". 

Now, many years later she finally is beginning to forgive me (rolling eyes).

Sort of like the way Beth's mom always criticizes her life choices even though Beth has built a great life for herself.

Like you said, Beth is cool and she will eventually come around.

They really did not do a great job with this story line because it feels forced and and does not fit what we know of Beth's nature.

[gonzosgirrl]

The problem is, if they wanted to have Beth giving a 'look' or being uncomfortable with the idea of Tess being a lesbian, they should have created a different scenario. Beth was totally justified to be surprised and unhappy walking in on Tess and Alex on the bed together with the door closed, regardless of who the other person was. Now if she'd had this 'look' after seeing them holding hands on the street, then yeah, I would have bought what they were trying to sell.

Honest question here. How do couples in which one or both parties identify as 'they', how do they refer to their partners? I get using 'partner' in relationships between older people, but young teens? Would Alex and Tess be considered girlfriends? Do they just say 'friend'?

[BoogieBurns]

On 4/28/2021 at 2:25 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

Honest question here. How do couples in which one or both parties identify as 'they', how do they refer to their partners? I get using 'partner' in relationships between older people, but young teens? Would Alex and Tess be considered girlfriends? Do they just say 'friend'?

They covered this on an episode of the rebooted One Day At A Time. There's no hard and fast rule. Options are "partner, my person, my love, my significant other, boo, date mate, sweetie, etc" and the couple on the show decided to make up an entirely new term that was specific to their relationship (I forgot what it was, but it was a cute way of saying partner). 

[RedbirdNelly]

I wanted Beth to point out to Tess "my mistake for not going over ground rules, but not ok to be up here with the door closed." it was a fair point. 

I liked Nicky giving it to Miguel and then apologizing. It was not ok, but I can imagine part of Nicky thinking he owed that to Jack--the old "I've got my brother's back" and overcompensating--and then realizing he was being silly. Miguel's speech to Nicky about knowing Jack wanted Nicky as his best man had me in tears. Thank you, Miguel for that.

I liked Beth telling Randall not to dominate the support group and him acknowledging he's a speech giver. I love characters with some self-awareness.

I also felt it was useful to see that support group and just get those perspectives. I'm not sure what the impact will be on Randall. But even though part of me wanted to argue with the woman who wishes she could have grown up with her bipolar mom, I also kind of appreciated listening to it--and then thinking I hope this group or some counselor helps them evaluate those feelings. How you feel is how you feel--acknowledge that--but some thoughts we have are unrealistic and can be damaging if we allow them to create this fake reality in our heads. So I think it would be healthier to acknowledge those feelings but also work through do they really make sense? would that have been better? and maybe getting to a point where, although you have hurts and wishes of how things should have been, you actually don't wish you'd never met your adoptive family? [I say all of this as someone with no personal experience in this area and aware I may be off base]

[Scarlett45]

On 5/2/2021 at 12:27 PM, RedbirdNelly said:

I also felt it was useful to see that support group and just get those perspectives. I'm not sure what the impact will be on Randall. But even though part of me wanted to argue with the woman who wishes she could have grown up with her bipolar mom, I also kind of appreciated listening to it--and then thinking I hope this group or some counselor helps them evaluate those feelings. How you feel is how you feel--acknowledge that--but some thoughts we have are unrealistic and can be damaging if we allow them to create this fake reality in our heads. So I think it would be healthier to acknowledge those feelings but also work through do they really make sense? would that have been better? and maybe getting to a point where, although you have hurts and wishes of how things should have been, you actually don't wish you'd never met your adoptive family? [I say all of this as someone with no personal experience in this area and aware I may be off base]

When hearing that woman’s story, I heard “I wish my biological mother had been healthy and well enough to properly care for me, even though I love and have affection for my adoptive family.”

I can imagine it could be the same for people who’s parents died when they were young, even though they were raised by loving family members (or even a step parent). But that doesn’t take away their wish that their parent hadn’t died and they could’ve been raised by them. Human emotions can be complex. 
 

That doesn’t take away the right for her adoptive family to be hurt by the statement “I wish I’d never met you.”- I don’t know why she said that TO THEM, that’s a discussion for therapy, telling them that just seems cruel and lashing out.
 

Which ties into how awful it was when Kevin said similar things to Randall, but in that fight I’m still on Kevin’s side, because Randall started the whole mess LYING and manipulating their mother and brought their dead father into it. 

[RedbirdNelly]

On 6/19/2021 at 2:31 PM, Scarlett45 said:

When hearing that woman’s story, I heard “I wish my biological mother had been healthy and well enough to properly care for me, even though I love and have affection for my adoptive family.”

I can imagine it could be the same for people who’s parents died when they were young, even though they were raised by loving family members (or even a step parent). But that doesn’t take away their wish that their parent hadn’t died and they could’ve been raised by them. Human emotions can be complex. 

very true. My dad's mom died when he was 16. My grandpa remarried the woman I knew as grandma. She was wonderful. I loved her but there is part of me that wishes I could have known my dad's mom. It is complex.

[gonzosgirrl]

On 6/21/2021 at 9:20 AM, RedbirdNelly said:

very true. My dad's mom died when he was 16. My grandpa remarried the woman I knew as grandma. She was wonderful. I loved her but there is part of me that wishes I could have known my dad's mom. It is complex.

Understandable, but IMO this was not the impression given off by the woman in this episode. I got an 'instead of' vibe. Not only that she wished her birth mother could/would have raised her, but that she regretted the family she was raised by (i.e., the purpose of this support group in the first place). That's on the writers and the performance, and perhaps my own feelings about the situation as an adoptee who never had an interest in knowing my bio- parents, but it was definitely my take-away from the scene.

[RedbirdNelly]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Understandable, but IMO this was not the impression given off by the woman in this episode. I got an 'instead of' vibe. Not only that she wished her birth mother could/would have raised her, but that she regretted the family she was raised by (i.e., the purpose of this support group in the first place). That's on the writers and the performance, and perhaps my own feelings about the situation as an adoptee who never had an interest in knowing my bio- parents, but it was definitely my take-away from the scene.

I agree--that is not how she came across but maybe after therapy she'll get to a more comfortable place. I don't think the writers or the performance were trying to depict my situation/type feelings. I think they were trying to show a person with a really strong reaction--one not shared by everyone in her situation I'm sure.  (my very true was in reference to human emotions being complex)

 

Edited June 22, 2021 by RedbirdNelly

[CrystalBlue]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Understandable, but IMO this was not the impression given off by the woman in this episode. I got an 'instead of' vibe. Not only that she wished her birth mother could/would have raised her, but that she regretted the family she was raised by (i.e., the purpose of this support group in the first place). That's on the writers and the performance, and perhaps my own feelings about the situation as an adoptee who never had an interest in knowing my bio- parents, but it was definitely my take-away from the scene.

Def was my take on it too.   I guess if you're gonna whine about your tragic life, a group therapy session is the proper place to do so.  Looking on from the outside in, however, results in a different judgement sometimes.  She rubbed me the wrong way with her boo hoo I wish I was raised by a drug addict and/or bipolar disorder sufferer (I don't exactly remember).

Edited June 22, 2021 by CrystalBlue
added some words