S01.E04: We Interrupt This Program

[Kromm]

37 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Is he the one that looks kinda like David Schwimmer? If so, they did indeed identify him.

He is. And they did.

And as I've laid out elsewhere, we actually have no reason to think they couldn't identify Dottie.  Dottie Jones was first introduced to Wanda, and thus the Sitcom, AFTER the scene where Darcy saw Monica sitting on the bench, which was clearly set in a 1950s episode that happened off-screen for us.  But the scene with them pinning items on the wall happened before that, before Darcy saw Monica (which was literally the next scene after that--remember the dropped Ramen?).  Ergo, the 1950s episodes were still playing when that scene with the IDs happened.

Dottie's husband Phil Jones, the pseudo-Schwimmer, was introduced in in the office setting, set in the 1950s.  Dottie's intro was firmly in the 1960s.   We know it was Dottie's first appearance, even knowing off-screen episodes happened, because Agnes literally was introducing Wanda to her in it.

We didn't get to see the Wall of IDs again after that.  So it wasn't possible for Dottie to even be on it when we did, and we don't know what they were or weren't able to do with her ID after she did show up.

Edited January 31, 2021 by Kromm

[arc]

1 hour ago, Kromm said:

We see another drone sent in at a different point. It's just not highlighted in the forefront of the action.

Yeah but that one was a quadcopter drone and not in the red and yellow color scheme. The one in Ep 2 was probably the mini helicopter Monica flew in.

[Kromm]

21 minutes ago, arc said:

Yeah but that one was a quadcopter drone and not in the red and yellow color scheme. The one in Ep 2 was probably the mini helicopter Monica flew in.

You're very likely right, although it's worth noting that the color scheme isn't actually all that solid a link. Aside from the design differences Monica's copter was almost entirely blue.  The red and yellow were very very minor accents on it.  In contrast, the version Wanda sees has zero blue, but some silver (of which the original had none).

Aside from any timing headaches of why it took so long to get noticed, I will say it bolsters theories that instead of some outside force, it's Wanda herself consciously or unconsciously changing things. I mean the whole episode is about it really being her, but this is just more evidence.

Red and Yellow, barely a highlight on the original, only have that inflated importance to HER.  Even the silver buys into Iron Man, since that's the third color of his designs we've seen at other points.  But blue?  Never.  Thus the blue got erased.

We can still wank it, assuming anyone really feels a compelling need to explain the timing better.  Sure we saw Monica's own copter and a later quad-drone, but the simplest wank could be that SWORD has been sending other unseen (by us) surveillance devices in at other points.  Or not.  It's certainly not the most important mystery being presented to us.

Edited February 1, 2021 by Kromm

[Jenniferbug]

Monica's drone and the helicopter Wanda pulls from the bushes both have the number 57 on them, so I think they're supposed to be the same. But we didn't see the other drones up close so can't say for certain. 

[Kromm]

5 minutes ago, Jenniferbug said:

Monica's drone and the helicopter Wanda pulls from the bushes both have the number 57 on them, so I think they're supposed to be the same. But we didn't see the other drones up close so can't say for certain. 

Okay, I had difficulty finding a still showing the right part of Wanda's copter, but you are right.  From the exact right angle, it does have a 57.

[lovett1979]

I re-watched episode 4 to try to some timing questions I had. Yes, Monica's drone and the helicopter that Wanda finds in the bushes have the same number, so I think we are supposed to assume that they are the same thing. When SWORD shows up, they start sending in more drones (that don't have the helicopter look). The thing that doesn't make sense to me is the timing doesn't line up with the sounds in the original episode. In Episode 2, Wanda hears a number of "bangs" while in bed. It is eventually revealed to be a branch banging on their window. But, the next day she hears the SAME BANG and goes outside to investigate. That's when she finds the helicopter toy. It seems odd to me that a real branch hitting a window makes the exact same sound as a drone entering the bubble and transforming into a toy. But if the multiple sounds are supposed to match the multiple drones, it doesn't make sense for the helicopter to show up after the last of them (because it was the first thing to enter the bubble).

[arc]

Maybe Westview runs on Jeremy Bearimy* time.

* if this makes no sense to you, watch The Good Place and it’ll be explained in season 4

[Snapdragon]

11 minutes ago, lovett1979 said:

I re-watched episode 4 to try to some timing questions I had. Yes, Monica's drone and the helicopter that Wanda finds in the bushes have the same number, so I think we are supposed to assume that they are the same thing. When SWORD shows up, they start sending in more drones (that don't have the helicopter look). The thing that doesn't make sense to me is the timing doesn't line up with the sounds in the original episode. In Episode 2, Wanda hears a number of "bangs" while in bed. It is eventually revealed to be a branch banging on their window. But, the next day she hears the SAME BANG and goes outside to investigate. That's when she finds the helicopter toy. It seems odd to me that a real branch hitting a window makes the exact same sound as a drone entering the bubble and transforming into a toy. But if the multiple sounds are supposed to match the multiple drones, it doesn't make sense for the helicopter to show up after the last of them (because it was the first thing to enter the bubble).

I was wondering this too.  Originally I thought that the bangs were from the drone and Monica passing through the barrier but the timing doesn't work in regards to the episodes.  I'm assuming we'll find out later since that was the one kinda big thing that they didn't explain.  Well, that and the fate of the bee guy...

[Kromm]

10 minutes ago, Snapdragon said:

I was wondering this too.  Originally I thought that the bangs were from the drone and Monica passing through the barrier but the timing doesn't work in regards to the episodes.  I'm assuming we'll find out later since that was the one kinda big thing that they didn't explain.  Well, that and the fate of the bee guy...

If the bangs have nothing to do with the drone, then the timing between Monica flying the drone and Wanda finding it matters very little.

We don't see the copter land, right?  Just Wanda finding it. Ergo, it could have been there for quite a while.  Whatever transforms things, even if we determine SHE has to be doing it because of the Iron Man colors, isn't a conscious thing for her. Otherwise we'd never have seen her be surprised at anything.  Even external things, because the transformations consistently happened before she consciously dealt with them.

What she consciously knows vs. unconscious is a big thing here.  That's why I still don't discount the idea that Vision is nothing but a figment of part of her consciousness, even though there's countless examples now of him acting outside of her agency (including a total break between them coming up, as I've speculated).  

Edited February 1, 2021 by Kromm

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, Kromm said:

He is. And they did.

And as I've laid out elsewhere, we actually have no reason to think they couldn't identify Dottie.  Dottie Jones was first introduced to Wanda, and thus the Sitcom, AFTER the scene where Darcy saw Monica sitting on the bench, which was clearly set in a 1950s episode that happened off-screen for us.  But the scene with them pinning items on the wall happened before that, before Darcy saw Monica (which was literally the next scene after that--remember the dropped Ramen?).  Ergo, the 1950s episodes were still playing when that scene with the IDs happened.

Dottie's husband Phil Jones, the pseudo-Schwimmer, was introduced in in the office setting, set in the 1950s.  Dottie's intro was firmly in the 1960s.   We know it was Dottie's first appearance, even knowing off-screen episodes happened, because Agnes literally was introducing Wanda to her in it.

We didn't get to see the Wall of IDs again after that.  So it wasn't possible for Dottie to even be on it when we did, and we don't know what they were or weren't able to do with her ID after she did show up.

Everything you're saying is full of reasonable inferences. But the trouble is we can't know if they are the right conclusions for a few reasons.

First, even accepting that her encounter with Wanda is Dottie's first time with lines,  it's at least possible that Vision independently encountered Dottie through Phil, or that Dottie had been a background character that Wanda encountered without taking note of her or wrapping her into a front-line position on the show. Remember, Monica as Geraldine was on-screen in the 1950s as a background character. She and Dottie were seemingly introduced to Wanda in the same 1960s episode. That proves that Dottie could have been in the sitcom prior to her introduction to Wanda just like Geraldine was.

Second, we know that Wanda can and does rewrite the continuity to suit her (and there is also the possibility of another force at work). So it is entirely possible that another appearance by Dottie was left on the cutting room floor, so to speak.

We also don't know if the show is being broadcast in strict chronological order. Darcy noted that the show kept switching time periods, the 50s, the 60s and now the 70s. For my money, that is a weird way to put it if the episodes aired the 50s style ones and then the 60s style ones consecutively. YMMV, but that seems to indicate to me that it would veer between episodes set in the first two decades. 

We also can't tell just from watching (unless it's stated) what is a fresh broadcast and what is a recording. We know that the 70s episode was the first time that the SWORD folks had experienced the show in the 70s time frame because they tell us that. But they also tell us that they have been recording, so anything we see could simply be playback.

It also seems clear that they are not necessarily getting the full sitcom experience. In the snippets we see from familiar episodes, things have been clearly cut. I assume that is not meant to have any significance but who knows?

We do know that the agents were able to ID Beverly, the neighbor who Dottie slapped down in failing to get chairs for the talent show in the 1960s episode we saw. As far as we know, Beverly's first appearance was in the same episode as the one in which Dottie appeared. If that is the case, the agents presumably had the same opportunity to ID Dottie as they did Beverly. Whether we are to attach any significance to there not being an explicit identification of Agnes or Dottie (I think these are the only people with lines in the first two episodes who have not been IDed) remains to be seen.

[arc]

10 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Remember, Monica as Geraldine was on-screen in the 1950s as a background character. She and Dottie were seemingly introduced to Wanda in the same 1960s episode.

Minor nitpick: Geraldine was an extra in a 1960s episode we never saw. (This is clear from Wanda’s hair and clothing, which is like Ep 2 and not like Ep 1)

12 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

We also don't know if the show is being broadcast in strict chronological order. Darcy noted that the show kept switching time periods, the 50s, the 60s and now the 70s. For my money, that is a weird way to put it if the episodes aired the 50s style ones and then the 60s style ones consecutively.

I think it’s reasonable to assume the time periods are consecutive until we’re told otherwise. The pregnancy happened in sequential order, albeit much faster than regular pregnancies. First Wanda got pregnant, then she had the babies, in order, just as the decades progress in order.

14 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

We also can't tell just from watching (unless it's stated) what is a fresh broadcast and what is a recording. We know that the 70s episode was the first time that the SWORD folks had experienced the show in the 70s time frame because they tell us that. But they also tell us that they have been recording, so anything we see could simply be playback.

Monica was ejected from Westview moments after the censored portion of ep 3 aired to the SWORD encampment. Just enough time for her body to be flung out of town. It’s probably real time.

15 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

In the snippets we see from familiar episodes, things have been clearly cut. I assume that is not meant to have any significance but who knows?

It’s probably significant. Darcy even says that someone is censoring the broadcast and the specific things we haven’t seen (from the SWORD side) are Dottie’s moment of injury and the red blood.

[Kromm]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Everything you're saying is full of reasonable inferences. But the trouble is we can't know if they are the right conclusions for a few reasons.

First, even accepting that her encounter with Wanda is Dottie's first time with lines,  it's at least possible that Vision independently encountered Dottie through Phil, or that Dottie had been a background character that Wanda encountered without taking note of her or wrapping her into a front-line position on the show. Remember, Monica as Geraldine was on-screen in the 1950s as a background character. She and Dottie were seemingly introduced to Wanda in the same 1960s episode. That proves that Dottie could have been in the sitcom prior to her introduction to Wanda just like Geraldine was.

Second, we know that Wanda can and does rewrite the continuity to suit her (and there is also the possibility of another force at work). So it is entirely possible that another appearance by Dottie was left on the cutting room floor, so to speak.

We also don't know if the show is being broadcast in strict chronological order. Darcy noted that the show kept switching time periods, the 50s, the 60s and now the 70s. For my money, that is a weird way to put it if the episodes aired the 50s style ones and then the 60s style ones consecutively. YMMV, but that seems to indicate to me that it would veer between episodes set in the first two decades. 

We also can't tell just from watching (unless it's stated) what is a fresh broadcast and what is a recording. We know that the 70s episode was the first time that the SWORD folks had experienced the show in the 70s time frame because they tell us that. But they also tell us that they have been recording, so anything we see could simply be playback.

It also seems clear that they are not necessarily getting the full sitcom experience. In the snippets we see from familiar episodes, things have been clearly cut. I assume that is not meant to have any significance but who knows?

We do know that the agents were able to ID Beverly, the neighbor who Dottie slapped down in failing to get chairs for the talent show in the 1960s episode we saw. As far as we know, Beverly's first appearance was in the same episode as the one in which Dottie appeared. If that is the case, the agents presumably had the same opportunity to ID Dottie as they did Beverly. Whether we are to attach any significance to there not being an explicit identification of Agnes or Dottie (I think these are the only people with lines in the first two episodes who have not been IDed) remains to be seen.

All of that is definitely possible, but my post was in response to people claiming Dottie was inherently suspicious because she was excluded from that board.

Supposing there are ways she COULD have been on that board doesn't mean her absence is suspicious.  Merely that a scenario can be strung together where she should have been and wasn't.

I admit Beverly being there is suspicious, but I'm not sold on the idea that her being there makes a completely different person suspicious.  Maybe it makes Beverly suspicious.

My actual theory on why Beverly is up there is two fold.  In OUR world she could be part of that sequence because a scene with that actress was cut from Episode 1 or earlier in Episode 2.

In the world of the show, she could be part of that sequence because like Monica, she was part of an episode we didn't see.

You've made the point that Dottie could have been as well, but if so only the "Vision met her" version really works.  While we have seen that Wanda can edit reality, I think in terms of the show there'd need to be a logical reason for that to have happened with Dottie, and if there was it's a huge thing to leave out of what we've been shown.  Whereas Beverly being missing follows the much simpler logic of something insignificant having not been shown to us.

It is worth noting that as an overall trend, our characters seem to remember relationships and broad outlines of what happens in the sitcom, even if it's nonsensical that the decades change.  Possibly the only slightly jarring thing I saw that defies that is that the first time we meet Phil Jones, he's being fired, and the next time we meet him, he lives with his snooty wife in the nicest house on the block, and if he's out of work it certainly isn't mentioned.

In summary, I can't dismiss the notion that it could mean something that Dottie isn't on the board, but the simplest possible logic explains it, and I can't explain why Beverly IS on the board, but you don't have to jump through huge hoops to explain it, the way you'd have to in order to explain the suggestion of it seeming like Dottie's first appearance but not actually being so.

1 hour ago, arc said:

Minor nitpick: Geraldine was an extra in a 1960s episode we never saw. (This is clear from Wanda’s hair and clothing, which is like Ep 2 and not like Ep 1)

It's actually hard to tell (I just checked).  Wanda is wearing a dress, but I agree her hair on second look is far more 60s-like.

It doesn't change the general logic though that Darcy doesn't notice Monica until AFTER we see the Whiteboard scene, and that the Pool Party scene is even later in the sequence. Meaning that although complex explanations can be made to make it seem Dottie being missing from the board is suspicious, that there's a more logical reason she wasn't up there.

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 minutes ago, arc said:

Minor nitpick: Geraldine was an extra in a 1960s episode we never saw. (This is clear from Wanda’s hair and clothing, which is like Ep 2 and not like Ep 1)

Darcy explicitly refers to Monica being in a 1950s sitcom. Now it could be that she doesn't know what she was talking about, or that she was playing fast and loose with the language, but it seems like she was in the 1950s. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Kromm said:

In summary, I can't dismiss the notion that it could mean something that Dottie isn't on the board, but the simplest possible logic explains it, and I can't explain why Beverly IS on the board, but you don't have to jump through huge hoops to explain it, the way you'd have to in order to explain the suggestion of it seeming like Dottie's first appearance but not actually being so.

The information sheets for people involved do not follow the timeline of the show. Dottie’s planning meeting was mentioned on other people’s info sheets before that scene happens according to the timeline. Dottie not having a sheet could be important or it could be a red herring but it’s unlikely that it’s because she hasn’t appeared yet. 

5 hours ago, Snapdragon said:

They did?  Well drat, there goes my theory then.  

You may still be on to something. We see Darcy screen when he’s identified and it lists his alias as Sit Amet. As in the placeholder text Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet which originally comes from a Latin text on ethics about good and evil. It could just be a random Easter egg or hint to something more. Particularly since he’s married to Dottie. 

Edited February 1, 2021 by Guest

[Kromm]

5 minutes ago, Dani said:

The information sheets for people involved do not follow the timeline of the show. Dottie’s planning meeting was mentioned on other people’s info sheets before that scene happens according to the timeline. Dottie not having a sheet could be important or it could be a red herring but it’s unlikely because she hasn’t appeared yet. 

If so (I haven't looked at close zooms of all of those sheets) that sounds like we could be dealing with a real world continuity error then, rather than an in-show one.  It doesn't necessarily add to the tally for Dottie being suspicious but it doesn't necessarily subtract from it either. 

We'd have to speculate that the show editors/writers originally had a different placement for the Whiteboard scene and it got moved.  But that would open the door to the question of why Monica wasn't on the whiteboard.

Another possible explanation could again be a real world continuity issue, but involving an overenthusiastic prop department or one who made general props for those people not based around when the scene would actually occur.  In this scenario Monica not being up there is simply because a director realized at the time it made no sense, but the director not looking closer at the props.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Kromm said:

If so (I haven't looked at close zooms of all of those sheets) that sounds like we could be dealing with a real world continuity error then, rather than an in-show one.

The strange thing is that they are not hiding those details. It doesn’t require any zooming or particular effort to read them. They are seen in close up and perfectly legible. Most of it even appears in a promo so it’s seems unlikely that it purely an real world continuity error. Either it is deliberate or the editors really suck. I tend to think it’s deliberate. 

[Kromm]

1 minute ago, Dani said:

The strange thing is that they are not hiding those details. It doesn’t require any zooming or particular effort to read them. They are seen in close up and perfectly legible. Most of it even appears in a promo so it’s seems unlikely that it purely an real world continuity error. Either it is deliberate or the editors really suck. I tend to think it’s deliberate. 

I'm good at speculating (go see the Speculation thread) but I wouldn't even know where to begin speculating around this.

The idea that the episodes could be showing out of order/decades was mentioned somewhere. That doesn't make much sense for Wanda and Vision's narrative, but it also wouldn't explain events we clearly see in the general MCU being out of order.

I mean it's not in sitcom-world where we see the Pool Party after the Whiteboard and Darcy dropping Ramen/Monica-reveal scenes. It's in the MCU's view of things.

We can't even draw some conclusion like "maybe the Pool Party is a repeat", because we see Jimmy in real time interacting with what happens in the sitcom--at least to the extent allowed before there's a glitch.

There'd have to be some truly far out stuff going on where the MCU side of this is being controlled just as much as sitcom-world. Where their notions of things is just as unreliable. Ergo, someone knows things about the Pool Party before the time we clearly see it has to be for Jimmy Woo to be involved.

[Chicago Redshirt]

11 minutes ago, Dani said:

The information sheets for people involved do not follow the timeline of the show. Dottie’s planning meeting was mentioned on other people’s info sheets before that scene happens according to the timeline. Dottie not having a sheet could be important or it could be a red herring but it’s unlikely that it’s because she hasn’t appeared yet. 

Lovely Lady Wife Mrs. Hart's sheet mentioned that she was seen attending the talent show with Mr. Hart and Agnes. Well, Mr. Hart was not in the version of the talent show episode we saw.

We don't get to see Jones's sheet.

The Beverly sheet says, "First seen at Dottie's Planning Committee where she helps to source meeting items and itmes needed for the talent show. Heavily intimidated by Dottie." It also lists for her next appearance: "Reappears at the Town Talent fundraiser dressed in a ____costume. She questioned [Wanda] and Vision's magic act. Appears to notice Vis____ do not look fake." (part of this is obscured by her driver's license.

The Herb sheet refers to the events from Episode 2 as well, talking about the first occurence being at the public library scene and the seccond being at the talent show. But it also has a note about Herb being Wanda and Vision's neighbor and that he was acting strangely, something that is only established in Episode 3, which they had not gotten to yet.

So it seems clear that some variant of the second episode has already appeared at this point, and the agents have been introduced to Dottie as a character. The version that we ended up seeing as the WandaVision audience is presumably different than what the SWORD people had seen up till that point, because Darcy idenitified Dottie's backyard as a new set. 

The Norm sheet makes reference to an event that we the WandaVision audience have not seen. Norm expressed concern for his father and sister when Vision awakened him, but reverted to Norm when Vision released him. The agent said raised questions about the safety of the residents and posed the question as to whether Wanda was controlling the whole town.

Now we generally know that the agents had been operating under the assumption that Wanda was having this done to her, so maybe we are making too much of what is on the sheets and maybe the editors were just sloppy.

 

[Chicago Redshirt]

13 minutes ago, Kromm said:

I'm good at speculating (go see the Speculation thread) but I wouldn't even know where to begin speculating around this.

The idea that the episodes could be showing out of order/decades was mentioned somewhere. That doesn't make much sense for Wanda and Vision's narrative, but it also wouldn't explain events we clearly see in the general MCU being out of order.

I mean it's not in sitcom-world where we see the Pool Party after the Whiteboard and Darcy dropping Ramen/Monica-reveal scenes. It's in the MCU's view of things.

We can't even draw some conclusion like "maybe the Pool Party is a repeat", because we see Jimmy in real time interacting with what happens in the sitcom--at least to the extent allowed before there's a glitch.

There'd have to be some truly far out stuff going on where the MCU side of this is being controlled just as much as sitcom-world. Where their notions of things is just as unreliable. Ergo, someone knows things about the Pool Party before the time we clearly see it has to be for Jimmy Woo to be involved.

We know that Westview has been having weird stuff happening for quite some time before SWORD first learns of the broadcast. 

In the real world, it was going on for some time prior to Jimmy learning that his WitSec person was gone and no one remembered him. Then there was additional time needed for him to fly to Westview and do some investigation, for him to request SWORD help, for Monica to make her way to Westview, for the drone to disappear,for Monica to disappear, all the agencies to mobilize, for Darcy to discover the radiation, and for her to see the first episode.

Let's conservatively call this three days' time.

During that time, presumably, the Westview residents have been living through variants of the sitcom themes. The first time that the SWORD people notice the 50s episode isn't the first time it's happened or been broadcast. It and things like it have been happening for three days up till this point. 

If we are to take the reports seriously, the SWORD agents have seen a version of the second episode, but with a number of differences from the one that we viewers ended up seeing. For instance, it didn't take place at Dottie's pool and Mr. Hart was present at the talent show along with his wife.

[Kromm]

3 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

We know that Westview has been having weird stuff happening for quite some time before SWORD first learns of the broadcast. 

In the real world, it was going on for some time prior to Jimmy learning that his WitSec person was gone and no one remembered him. Then there was additional time needed for him to fly to Westview and do some investigation, for him to request SWORD help, for Monica to make her way to Westview, for the drone to disappear,for Monica to disappear, all the agencies to mobilize, for Darcy to discover the radiation, and for her to see the first episode.

Let's conservatively call this three days' time.

During that time, presumably, the Westview residents have been living through variants of the sitcom themes. The first time that the SWORD people notice the 50s episode isn't the first time it's happened or been broadcast. It and things like it have been happening for three days up till this point. 

If we are to take the reports seriously, the SWORD agents have seen a version of the second episode, but with a number of differences from the one that we viewers ended up seeing. For instance, it didn't take place at Dottie's pool and Mr. Hart was present at the talent show along with his wife.

I can see something like this.  But only if it's actually part of our reveals going forward.

There's a lot to be said for shows planting Easter Eggs and more complicated narratives to reward viewers.  But the pure scope of what you're suggesting, if it was just a background thing, would be ludicrous.  

You don't have to drill down to all of the details, but this state of knowledge of what's SUPPOSSED to happen from our observers, under this theory, has to also explain why they thought it could be changed on a subsequent repeat/2nd run at an episode.  Darcy clearly believes it's possible that Woo can speak to Wanda. For that to be the case, wouldn't she have to be aware that things didn't always pan out the same? Why did she even think the broadcasts were real time? That's what I don't get if the idea is that the episodes are happening over and over.

Is Mr. Hart not being at the talent show the key here?  If they'd already recorded one instance of Episode 2 where he WAS there, and one where he wasn't, I could see how that would unlock this as an idea for Darcy.  That said, the obvious rationale for Hart being missing is that Wanda, or someone, eliminated him from Sitcomland because of what he did in the Episode 1 version we wound up seeing--pushing her with questions so hard it not only made him choke, but broke his wife.

This all hurts the head, because again, this would all be SO complicated under a multiple runs theory that we'd need a real reason why this was never mentioned overtly in what we saw.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Darcy can only guess at how any of this works. Like she told the SWORD guy and Jimmy, she doesn't know if this was live or recorded, a social experiment, an alternate reality, or what. Same with us. We just are equipped with more/different information than she is.

I think we can safely assume that TPTB weren't just being sloppy when they came up with the reports on the true identities of the Westview residents. They describe events that did not yet happen if the episode with the patio party version of the planning committee meeting is the first and only occurrence of anything like that.  

Darcy thinks that she was unable to patch Jimmy through to Wanda. We know that she was able to get a signal in, but that she or some other power glitched over that and covered it up.

She saw Monica as Geraldine ask about Ultron and then suddenly disappear. We know more about what happened.

I'm open to other explanations, but mine fits the facts as they have been shown and described without reducing things to production errors.

[arc]

3 hours ago, Kromm said:

It's actually hard to tell (I just checked).  Wanda is wearing a dress, but I agree her hair on second look is far more 60s-like.

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Darcy explicitly refers to Monica being in a 1950s sitcom. Now it could be that she doesn't know what she was talking about, or that she was playing fast and loose with the language, but it seems like she was in the 1950s. 

I rewatched and in the scene where Monica is a foreground extra, Wanda has her 60s hair and she’s definitely wearing pants, not a dress or skirt. But Darcy does say it’s a 1950s sitcom. I’m gonna guess that Darcy was just a little inaccurate or imprecise with her phrasing. Also, Monica basically has almost her same hairdo as in the Ep 2 appearance.

one other weird thing about how time works here: when the inner show jumped over the Agent Woo radio call, it just jumped over. There wasn’t, say, a blackout where those events that happened inside Westview could have time to happen but be hidden from broadcast. They were just edited out. Yet in some sense Agent Woo’s message went out in real time from the outside world into Westview. (And of course time inside Westview doesn’t progress like real time outside since the inner show has regular cuts, besides the glitching.)

[Kromm]

34 minutes ago, arc said:

I rewatched and in the scene where Monica is a foreground extra, Wanda has her 60s hair and she’s definitely wearing pants, not a dress or skirt.

I hate pausing on Disney+ for a frame.  I tried again and I think the hatbox in that scene was throwing me.  There's an angle where it seems like it has to be a dress, but I realized after your post that you're correct.  The hatbox covers the split in the pants.  They're also very high waisted pants so there's a lot of material at the top.  A different frame when the hatbox is slightly to the left does make it clearer.

Since Darcy's statement is clear, I suppose this brings back up Chicago Redshirt's theory about this being out of order. Maybe Darcy is saying 1950s because it's all she's knowingly seen to that point, but the piece she's seeing is a 60s clip.  But that's at odds with the whiteboard one scene earlier talking about events from other decades.  My head hurts from the suggestions here.

[swanpride]

We also should keep in mind that we and the sword agents don't see completely the same thing. It is suggested in the episode that there are more episodes which we never got to see, episodes in which Wanda washes the dishes pretty much every time at one point. And in reverse, the episodes we do see we see fully, while Sword sees an edited version. Though we know both more and less than them.

[Kel Varnsen]

There was also some weird timing stuff going on in this episode. The guy goes in the sewer before Darcy and Woo do their radio experiment. And the it apparently takes him longer to crawl through the sewer than it does to set up the experiment call Wanda and realize it doesn't work. And in the Wanda show world they call the radio during the day but the beekeeper comes out of the sewer at night.

[johntfs]

8 hours ago, arc said:

I rewatched and in the scene where Monica is a foreground extra, Wanda has her 60s hair and she’s definitely wearing pants, not a dress or skirt. But Darcy does say it’s a 1950s sitcom. I’m gonna guess that Darcy was just a little inaccurate or imprecise with her phrasing. Also, Monica basically has almost her same hairdo as in the Ep 2 appearance.

 

Dr. Darcy Lewis is a physicist living in 2023 watching a black and white sitcom.  In response to Woo's"WTF is this?  Alternate reality?  Social experiment?" she replies that it's a 1950s sitcom.  Darcy being a little inaccurate about the sitcom's specific timing is understandable at that point because she has an intellectually demanding job and doesn't veg out watching Nick at Nite on a regular basis.

[cardpetree]

Okay, here's what I don't understand. Vision died 5 years ago and Wanda was snapped away as well. When everyone was snapped back by Hulk, Wanda seemed to be normal and immediately helped in the fight against Thanos and his army. Where has Vision's body been this whole time? At what point after the big fight with Thanos did Wanda create this alternate reality. How did she get Vision's body if his body is actually in there with her? 

[lovett1979]

I think people are getting a little too hung-up on separating each decade and episode and what Darcy meant by 1950s sitcom when she was CLEARLY watching the 1960s episode. I looked up the run years of all the shows that WandaVision is pulling from:

I Love Lucy - 1950-1957

Dick Van Dyke Show - 1961-1966 (entirely in the '60s, but the first WV episode had tons of references to it)

Betwitched - 1964-1972

The Brady Bunch - 1969-1974

Partridge Family - 1970-1974

Spoiler

 

(future shows that seem like obvious inspirations from the previews)

Family Ties - 1982-1989

Roseanne - 1988-1997

Modern Family - 2009-2020

 

The shows don't necessarily line-up with a decade, or with the episode decade portrayed in WV. If a 2023 woman saw a show in B&W with period costumes and styling, I think calling it a "1950s sitcom" is very likely, even if the styling is a little off. Also, she's not bringing the expectation that we all have that "each episode takes place in a different decade."

[Chicago Redshirt]

I've already acknowledged that it is possible Darcy was wrong or speaking loosely.

But I don't think that it is necessarily clear from the snippets we saw in the segment whether it is in the 50s or the 60s. We just have fashions to go on, no dialog. While the fahsions would seem to place things in the 60s, the characters could be fashion-forward or retro. 

[questionfear]

As far as the period pieces of 50s vs 60s...I think it also depends on who is manipulating and creating this illusion. If Wanda's the one "inventing" the styles, I think it could be as simple as her just not knowing the nuances of skirts vs pants in the 50s vs the 60s...she did grow up in Sokovia and if she's drawing on sitcoms from different eras there's bound to be a fair bit of anachronism and bleeding between the styles, because she would have seen all these as reruns and wouldn't perfectly align them to the right period.

Unrelated: I think part of why Wanda's gone so off the deep end is that out of all the loss in her life, Vision was the one who was never supposed to die. Her parents died during the war, her brother died tragically...but they were also all mortal, flesh and blood people. Vision is a synthedroid and hypothetically should be nearly indestructible. I wonder if subconsciously the fact that he would be unlikely to be killed by surprise violence, or even just old age, might have been part of his appeal for her, so him dying so traumatically makes it even worse. Her killing him by blowing the mind stone was bad enough, but watching the person who was supposed to be indestructible get smooshed like a bug might have stressed Wanda's grief beyond the breaking point.

[Kel Varnsen]

40 minutes ago, questionfear said:

Unrelated: I think part of why Wanda's gone so off the deep end is that out of all the loss in her life, Vision was the one who was never supposed to die.

My kids wanted to watch Infinity War last night and I hadn't realized before that Vision and Wanda were doing the secret long distance relationship for 2 years at that point. So pretty serious, especially compared to Cap who basically knew Peggy for what a few months and during most of it they were co-workers.

As for Vision, it sounded like he was going to do something like a robo-proposal before Thanos's minion stabbed him. So thinking of that I can even more see her wanting a happily ever after story.

[Fool of Chat]

Great show so far, easily fill the gap of a week between shows catching up on all the theories & predictions, haha

[Kromm]

The new so called "Mid Season Promo" on Marvel Entertainment's YouTube channel has some moments that feed the discussion already in this thread about how the episode/decade sequencing may not be what we first assume. There's a bit at the end with Woo and Darcy (where they hold a slightly different version of a conversation they've arguably already had) that make me suspicious of THEIR sequencing too, but the main thing is seeing Agnes do the same entrance and same line reading in different decades in quick sequence.  It's unclear if it's the promo editing her that way, of if it happens in the show like that. But if it DOES, it's fodder for some of the theories already discussed here. 

[Ilovepie]

I didn't read through any of the comments, so apologies if someone already addressed this, but my (limited) understanding is that SWORD is for dealing with aliens, correct? Why are they dealing with this situation and not SHIELD? Wouldn't this be something they would be involved with? I admittedly am not well versed in the MCU, and I didn't really watch SHIELD, but my husband did and I saw some of it sporadically. Wouldn't what's happening here fall under their purview?

As a casual Marvel viewer I am still on the fence if this show is for me. I understand what's happening even if these characters are new to me (I do know Darcy since I did see the Thor movies), but I am just not finding this very compelling.

[Chicago Redshirt]

5 minutes ago, Ilovepie said:

I didn't read through any of the comments, so apologies if someone already addressed this, but my (limited) understanding is that SWORD is for dealing with aliens, correct? Why are they dealing with this situation and not SHIELD? Wouldn't this be something they would be involved with? I admittedly am not well versed in the MCU, and I didn't really watch SHIELD, but my husband did and I saw some of it sporadically. Wouldn't what's happening here fall under their purview?

As a casual Marvel viewer I am still on the fence if this show is for me. I understand what's happening even if these characters are new to me (I do know Darcy since I did see the Thor movies), but I am just not finding this very compelling.

In the comics, SWORD stands for Sentient Worlds Observation and Response Division, so it is dedicated to dealing with threats that originate from off-world exclusively. SHIELD still exists as the front line agency to deal with weird terrestrial stuff, and I'm sure there are a number of others.

Now in the MCU, SWORD stands for Sentient Weapons Observation and Response Division. A "sentient weapon" would be basically any of these uber powerful people who were supposed to be bound by the Sokovia Accords.

The status of MCU SHIELD is sort of ambiguous. Purely in the movies, after the reveal that it was corrupted by Hydra, SHIELD sort of went away-ish. I think in this or another thread, one of the last movie references to SHIELD may have been in Avengers: Age of Ultron, where Fury and Hill used a helicarrier to help evacuate Sokovia. The series Agents of SHIELD had various versions of the organization's status too. There's an argument to be made that the series stopped being in the same timeline as the movies, and that even if it is, it has somewhat split off. 

Let's just say that Marvel decided to slightly rebrand SWORD and let it emerge as either THE agency for weird stuff or AN agency for weird stuff.

[Chicago Redshirt]

22 hours ago, cardpetree said:

Okay, here's what I don't understand. Vision died 5 years ago and Wanda was snapped away as well. When everyone was snapped back by Hulk, Wanda seemed to be normal and immediately helped in the fight against Thanos and his army. Where has Vision's body been this whole time? At what point after the big fight with Thanos did Wanda create this alternate reality. How did she get Vision's body if his body is actually in there with her? 

To paraphrase Darcy, we're all working with the same scarcity of intel.

But some possibilities:

1. No one obtained Vision's physical body. It is wherever it was taken and what we are seeing is a magical/mental recreation of the body. 

2. Wanda's magic, which basically can do as much or as little as the plot wants it to, allowed Wanda to instantly teleport Vision's body from wherever it was to Westview.

3. After the Snap, one of the surviving Avengers took vision's body and enshrined it somewhere (Wakanda, the Avengers compound, Arlington National Cemetery, doesn't really matter where). After helping defeat Thanos, Wanda physically robbed that grave to get the body and physically took it to Westview.

4. An outside influence is working on Wanda and it obtained Vision's body for Wanda.

We know that it's roughly three weeks after the battle with Thanos in Endgame, because we are told that Monica's return to SWORD is roughly three weeks after being blipped back. Some time presumably passes between the blip and Tony's funeral,, where we last see Wanda. I just went back to see her last scene. Hawkeye tells her that he wishes that he could tell Black Widow that they'd won, and Wanda replies that she knows, that they both do, meaning Vision. In the context of the scene, it's a sweet sentiment that they both have a spirit that transcends death. But in the context of this series, it could mean that Wanda is starting to unravel over the notion tha Vision is dead-dead.  

[lovett1979]

Putting this under a spoiler tag, but talking about an unused post-credits scene in Endgame

Spoiler

Paul Bettany mentioned in an interview that there was maybe going to be a post-credits scene in Endgame where Wanda took Vision's body from an Avengers' facility. Assuming that this did happen, and they just chose not to show it to us, makes pretty clear that we're dealing with Vision's actual body, either being animated or projected somehow by Wanda.

 

[FnkyChkn34]

13 minutes ago, lovett1979 said:

Putting this under a spoiler tag, but talking about an unused post-credits scene in Endgame

  Reveal spoiler

Paul Bettany mentioned in an interview that there was maybe going to be a post-credits scene in Endgame where Wanda took Vision's body from an Avengers' facility. Assuming that this did happen, and they just chose not to show it to us, makes pretty clear that we're dealing with Vision's actual body, either being animated or projected somehow by Wanda.

 

There is also concept art portraying this scene.  (I think it's straight from the MCU, rather than fan art.)  I saw a tweet about it the other day, but forget where; sorry I'm not any more help.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 1/29/2021 at 4:14 AM, vb68 said:

I never developed any affinity for Jimmy. He was just kinda there. They needed somebody. Once they realized it was Wanda and Vision, why didn't they try and contact other Avengers... Bruce? Or Sam or Clint, maybe? 

I have a feeling Randall Park works on a different pay scale than actual Avengers actors.

On 1/29/2021 at 3:11 PM, Featherhat said:

People in this franchise literally fall through sky portal, get thrown through walls, off buildings, are in space without any life support, beat each other up with powers/equipment etc and survive with nothing but an aesthetically pleasing scratch. Unless you're Rhodey and are the CW sacrifical lamb. Granted most of them have suits on at the time but I doubt she'll have any lasting damage. 

Dr. Strange did lose the ability to perform operations....

On 1/30/2021 at 2:35 AM, lynxfx said:

On 1/30/2021 at 1:45 AM, Kromm said:

I agree her not being snapped is the only way her career progression makes sense. Remember that she wasn't even a student of the field she's a doctor in when we last saw her. Political Science to Astrophysics is a big change. 

I agree not snapped. She was doing pretty well as Jane's intern in Thor 2. Even hired her own intern. That was 10 years ago in this timeline. Plenty of time to advance especially with their connections to Thor and what happened in Dark World. I like that they brought her back for this. 

Much less competition for PhD astrophysics programs with half the potential students gone.

On 1/30/2021 at 9:39 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

That position -- someone who was snapped and lost someone she lost dearly and hasn't really been able to fully process those events -- is likely to be the key to getting through to Wanda and putting an end to Westview.

Very good observation.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 1/29/2021 at 3:14 AM, vb68 said:

Once they realized it was Wanda and Vision, why didn't they try and contact other Avengers... Bruce? Or Sam or Clint, maybe?  I was also convinced we were going to see some version of Fury or at least Maria Hill.

If I were to bet (being spoiler-free), I would err on the side of seeing a previously established MCU character or a name Marvel Comics character who has not yet been in the MCU before the season is done.

In terms of this episode, I'd guesstimate that the period between when Darcy realizes the Wanda sitcom exists to the end is not even a full day. So assuming they put out an alert to superheroes to assist, it's still fairly early for any of them to have responded to the call.

The one downside of a shared universe is the sort of situation of "Why not call in Iron Man to make short work of those helicarriers in Winter Soldier?" and what not.

Although here, it is unclear what most superheroes could do at the moment that isn't being done.

You can't smash or shoot your way into Westview, so that eliminates the usefulness of most of the Marvel people.

You can't, as far as SWORD knows talk to Wanda yet, so people who might make an emotional connection to her for the moment are not likely to make a breakthrough.

The genius science types like Hulk, Pym or Shuri might be able to figure things out,  but then they might be as stuck as the not quite-genius types that are on scene..  

[swanpride]

...they might simply be busy elsewhere. Plus, there are currently not that many heroes around, are there?

[kay1864]

(if this was already mentioned in the thread, I missed it)

 So not only is Wanda (1) creating sitcom scenes in multiple decades...  she also (2) has virtual cameras in the scenes, and is broadcasting them outside of Westview?

I can see the first as a way to deal with her grief, but why the second?

(also, I totally LOL’d at Darcy‘s line, “I’m invested”)

Edited February 3, 2021 by kay1864

[lovett1979]

41 minutes ago, kay1864 said:

(if this was already mentioned in the thread, I missed it)

 So not only is Wanda (1) creating sitcom scenes in multiple decades...  she also (2) has virtual cameras in the scenes, and is broadcasting them outside of Westview?

I can see the first as a way to deal with her grief, but why the second?

(also, I totally LOL’d at Darcy‘s line, “I’m invested”)

I don't think we know for sure that #2 is Wanda's doing or even if she is aware of that fact.

[lovett1979]

10 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

You can't, as far as SWORD knows talk to Wanda yet, so people who might make an emotional connection to her for the moment are not likely to make a breakthrough.

 

I don't think there's really anyone left who COULD make a breakthrough on an emotional level. Think about who she actually spent time with across the films:

Spoilers if you haven't watched Infinity War/Endgame (but if you haven't, why are you even here?)

Spoiler

 

Iron Man - dead

Captain America - probably presumed missing, actually a really old man now

Black Widow - dead

Thor - in space with the Guardians

Hulk - maybe available, but did she really ever know him?

Hawkeye - he probably has the best chance, since he gave her that pep talk in Sokovia

Shuri - they were together when Shuri was trying to remove the stone from Vision, but that's not really the basis for a lasting friendship

 

Is there anyone else she's even met?

 

 

[kay1864]

20 minutes ago, lovett1979 said:

I don't think we know for sure that #2 is Wanda's doing or even if she is aware of that fact.

I would think she’d have to be the one doing it. First, Darcy and Woo appeared surprised at the transmission. Second, if someone at Sword is doing the broadcasting, surely Wanda would notice two or three TV cameras (each!) in her different fantasy living rooms, kitchen, and front yard. 

[Kromm]

17 hours ago, swanpride said:

...they might simply be busy elsewhere. Plus, there are currently not that many heroes around, are there?

There's a far simpler explanation everyone is ignoring.

SWORD doesn't trust The Avengers.  SWORD, at least in it's current form, is something of an entity created to counterbalance The Avengers.  They aren't their friends.

This wasn't necessarily the case when Maria was in charge, for those with head-canon about how with Carol Danvers as a friend she couldn't possible be opposed to Superheroes.  We have words right out of Monica and Hayward's mouths that things have changed with the organization.

18 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

You can't, as far as SWORD knows talk to Wanda yet, so people who might make an emotional connection to her for the moment are not likely to make a breakthrough.

And this is the second part of that.  I think previews suggest that it takes Monica to be the one to convince anyone that appealing to Wanda on an emotional level might even be a valid thing vs. just going and getting her. 

EDIT - To be clear, there's just ONE specific moment, like a second long, in one of the many new previews recently to indicate this. The rest of them just show Monica out cold.

Quote

I would think she’d have to be the one doing it. First, Darcy and Woo appeared surprised at the transmission. Second, if someone at Sword is doing the broadcasting, surely Wanda would notice two or three TV cameras (each!) in her different fantasy living rooms, kitchen, and front yard. 

It's interesting, because the little we've seen from Wanda's actual point of view indicate there aren't any cameras.  Or that they mysteriously disappear at the very least when not wanted.  There certainly weren't any when she tossed Monica out like yesterday's trash.

This may be why the studio audience didn't actually appear in Episode 1, despite the episode even being named about them, and actual information about the filming suggesting the audience was made camera ready with period dress.  The showrunners decided a bit later on to err on the side of keeping us more unsure about how all of this actually looks and works.

Edited February 3, 2021 by Kromm

[kay1864]

34 minutes ago, Kromm said:

because the little we've seen from Wanda's actual point of view indicate there aren't any cameras.

Yep. That’s why I indicated virtual cameras in my OP— something I would think would be within Wanda’s superlative capabilities.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, lovett1979 said:

I don't think there's really anyone left who COULD make a breakthrough on an emotional level. Think about who she actually spent time with across the films:

Spoilers if you haven't watched Infinity War/Endgame (but if you haven't, why are you even here?)

  Hide contents

 

Iron Man - dead

Captain America - probably presumed missing, actually a really old man now

Black Widow - dead

Thor - in space with the Guardians

Hulk - maybe available, but did she really ever know him?

Hawkeye - he probably has the best chance, since he gave her that pep talk in Sokovia

Shuri - they were together when Shuri was trying to remove the stone from Vision, but that's not really the basis for a lasting friendship

 

Is there anyone else she's even met?

 

 

Sam Wilson would be the best choice. Personally I get tired of this constantly coming up. The others aren’t there because it’s not their story and it’s not practical to turn every project into an Avengers story. 

1 hour ago, kay1864 said:

I would think she’d have to be the one doing it. First, Darcy and Woo appeared surprised at the transmission. Second, if someone at Sword is doing the broadcasting, surely Wanda would notice two or three TV cameras (each!) in her different fantasy living rooms, kitchen, and front yard. 

This is one of the reason I think there is a third party involved. Wanda has no reason to broadcast what is happening. 

[swanpride]

Clint would make sense though. If there is an Avenger who has a connection to Wanda it is him.

[kay1864]

28 minutes ago, Dani said:

This is one of the reason I think there is a third party involved. Wanda has no reason to broadcast what is happening. 

That we know of. 

Also, why would a third party broadcast in black-and-white?