S15.E20: Carry On (Series Finale)

[MAK]

Sorry if this is the wrong thread, but I'm new here. Also, sorry for length.

Making God the big bad was very short sighted and not very creative IMO. They should have stuck with the "hands off" just setting up scenarios type of character if they had before.

But they went there, so it's up to the fans to figure out how it could fit into the overall narrative. Especially since the writers did not do a good job of it.

IMO, the Winchesters never had "plot armor." If they did, Faith would not have happened. Roy wouldn't have been guided (by Chuck/angels) to save Dean. Because sh*t happens to the best of us. If Dean had died instantly of electrocution in Faith, it would have been a heroic death. It would not have been because he was incompetent. He was focused on sighting and shooting the monster, not where he stepping. Chuck/Angels wanted to keep their pieces on the board. (Sorry not quoting whoever said this.)

When I watched the finale, it seemed to me that there was more of a time lapse than a few days. I know a lot of people say it was only a few days, but that seems unrealistic. I think some else also pointed this out. (I would quote that comment if I remembered where it was.)

It had to be a few months if not a year. So this was not their first hunt post Chuck, because:

It took time for the brothers to mourn. For Cas, Jack, and probably Eileen. Jack possibly did not bring back resurrected people.

It took time to get into a routine that was "normal." 8 am alarm, breakfast, washing clothes, washing dishes, cleaning guns, checking for stuff online, all by 10 am. Anyone really think they started a week later?

Dean seemed to be drinking less, only beer bottles in his room.

The hunts also seemed to be less. Whatever Jack did, seems to have limited the monsters to, what I call "corrupted human dna" monsters (vampires, werewolves, shapeshifters, rawheads, wendigos, etc). And other hunters were out there.

Whatever the application/contract was, it does not take that long to fill it out an application or accept a contract, but it would take a while for Dean to get into a headspace where he wanted to apply and makes the decision to follow through. I refuse to believe he woke up a week after everything went down and decided to apply for a job (or whatever).

Going to a pie festival? A week later? Casually saying they died for us, so we should just enjoy life! Have some pie! Yes, Dean suppresses everything, but even Sam? He plays a prank on his brother?

As for Dean dying that way, it makes sense in the way that "bad things happen to good people" through no fault of their own. Like in Faith. No one is writing their story. That is why Dean was resigned to it. He was ready to live, he did "not think that was the day".

Do I wish Dabb had given him a heroic death like Dean pushes the children out of the way as he falls onto the hook? Of course! But what can you do?

[Casseiopeia]

20 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

I cannot believe how many people are just fine with Chuck being the reason the Winchesters were heroes... ergo this is why Dean dies on the hunt. 

They claim Dean never wanted anything but to die hunting and for Sam to have a life so he got what he wanted. And Sam gets a life... yeah!!!!

I relish saying that Sam stops hunting and stops the family business and the only difference from s 8 is that he doesn't have to hit a dog because he took Dean's. And he did it pre-season one too without the dog because he was at college. Sam only plays the hero of Dean is there. DEAN IS THE FAMILT BUSINESS.

Chuck did not write them. He wrote about them and he moved pieces around trying to influence things at certain points. They do not change because Chuck no longer writes. The only difference is he no longer has any influence.

Maybe but they had 2 episodes dealing with the Winchester's losing their "magic" and then winning it back in a pool game.  Dabb managed to destroy 11 seasons (the last 4 don't count) of Supernatural during his way too long tenure. What makes me think that the Winchesters lost their mojo in the finale was that they weren't very smart in the final hunt. Just a few minutes before the Barn Sam shot the vamp with DMB. Why show that and then have the brothers go into the barn with just machete's? I know that Dabb has a hard time following his own scripts but that was a pretty glaring in your face mistake for the brothers (and even Dabb) to make. I can only surmise that he wrote that scene to follow through with his original premise for the season that the Winchesters never had any agency. They were manipulated their entire lives (even Dean  wanted off the hamster wheel so bad he almost shot his brother) by Chuck. When they finally did get "free" from the puppet master the first hunt (at least that we see) they go in reckless and unprepared. Dean dies....pretty much episode/series over.

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, MAK said:

When I watched the finale, it seemed to me that there was more of a time lapse than a few days. I know a lot of people say it was only a few days, but that seems unrealistic. I think some else also pointed this out. (I would quote that comment if I remembered where it was.)

I disagree. IMO it's more unrealistic to guess that more than a few weeks at most have passed. Otherwise, sadface-Sam bringing up Cas and Jack on a random day a year down the road? Weird. It's not like eating pie at a small town festival is something they were likely to have shared at any time. And Dean's reaction? Dean didn't weep and moan about his mother at her wake. He did his mourning in private, and I expect he did for his friend/brother Castiel, too. But at that moment, Sam needed him to be the big brother and buck him up. That's very much in character, IMO.

[MAK]

26 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I disagree. IMO it's more unrealistic to guess that more than a few weeks at most have passed. Otherwise, sadface-Sam bringing up Cas and Jack on a random day a year down the road? Weird. It's not like eating pie at a small town festival is something they were likely to have shared at any time. And Dean's reaction? Dean didn't weep and moan about his mother at her wake. He did his mourning in private, and I expect he did for his friend/brother Castiel, too. But at that moment, Sam needed him to be the big brother and buck him up. That's very much in character, IMO.

I agree with most of this. I don't think they cried in each other's arms. They grieve very differently.  Dean probably got drunk a lot and went out on long drives a lot. Sam probably talked with Jody/Donna, and read a lot of books.

But even Sam didn't seem that sad. It was more like "Wow, here we are sitting and enjoying ourselves. But I miss Cas and Jack." It was more like a memory of grief. 

Also, they stumbled upon the hunt. They went there for pie.

[tessathereaper]

5 hours ago, MAK said:

Sorry if this is the wrong thread, but I'm new here. Also, sorry for length.

Making God the big bad was very short sighted and not very creative IMO. They should have stuck with the "hands off" just setting up scenarios type of character if they had before.

But they went there, so it's up to the fans to figure out how it could fit into the overall narrative. Especially since the writers did not do a good job of it.

IMO, the Winchesters never had "plot armor." If they did, Faith would not have happened. Roy wouldn't have been guided (by Chuck/angels) to save Dean. Because sh*t happens to the best of us. If Dean had died instantly of electrocution in Faith, it would have been a heroic death. It would not have been because he was incompetent. He was focused on sighting and shooting the monster, not where he stepping. Chuck/Angels wanted to keep their pieces on the board. (Sorry not quoting whoever said this.)

When I watched the finale, it seemed to me that there was more of a time lapse than a few days. I know a lot of people say it was only a few days, but that seems unrealistic. I think some else also pointed this out. (I would quote that comment if I remembered where it was.)

It had to be a few months if not a year. So this was not their first hunt post Chuck, because:

It took time for the brothers to mourn. For Cas, Jack, and probably Eileen. Jack possibly did not bring back resurrected people.

It took time to get into a routine that was "normal." 8 am alarm, breakfast, washing clothes, washing dishes, cleaning guns, checking for stuff online, all by 10 am. Anyone really think they started a week later?

Dean seemed to be drinking less, only beer bottles in his room.

The hunts also seemed to be less. Whatever Jack did, seems to have limited the monsters to, what I call "corrupted human dna" monsters (vampires, werewolves, shapeshifters, rawheads, wendigos, etc). And other hunters were out there.

Whatever the application/contract was, it does not take that long to fill it out an application or accept a contract, but it would take a while for Dean to get into a headspace where he wanted to apply and makes the decision to follow through. I refuse to believe he woke up a week after everything went down and decided to apply for a job (or whatever).

Going to a pie festival? A week later? Casually saying they died for us, so we should just enjoy life! Have some pie! Yes, Dean suppresses everything, but even Sam? He plays a prank on his brother?

As for Dean dying that way, it makes sense in the way that "bad things happen to good people" through no fault of their own. Like in Faith. No one is writing their story. That is why Dean was resigned to it. He was ready to live, he did "not think that was the day".

Do I wish Dabb had given him a heroic death like Dean pushes the children out of the way as he falls onto the hook? Of course! But what can you do?

It doesn't take that long to set up a routine.  It really didn't seem like more than a couple weeks at most.  And actually yeah we've seen them have "fun" not long after people have died before.  They were hardly partying. Like MOST people they don't mourn every minute of every day. Heck people smile at wakes.  It doesn't mean they don't miss the person and might not cry themselves to sleep that night.

The pie festival seemed like it was an "event" for Dean, like "wow we can just go and DO THIS..."  Not like it was something he was used to being able to just go and do.

IMO the whole "writing their story thing" is such a crock.  It doesn't fit with the show, it doesn't even really fit with what happened.  Chuck was never WRITING their story.  They made their own choices and decisions, they trained their whole lives.  He set up the pieces and then he WROTE about what they did.  But near the end rather than being satisfied with just writing and making doing a little nudge, he wanted more and more control and he started to get angry he couldn't control them.  But he never really had all that much control to begin with.

This isn't lack of plot armor, this is just bad writing by Andrew Dabb.

[ahrtee]

Forgive me if this is a stupid question (as I've said before, I'm not on any SM so I only read about things here or by Googling) but who saw/said that the papers on Dean's desk were a job application?  I know it was said that someone capped and enlarged the image, but that image hasn't shown up anywhere that I can find, but all of a sudden it's taken as fact.  

Has anyone, in fact, actually seen that screen cap?  Or did someone come up with the idea and everyone ran with it (since they were trying to figure out the time gap at the beginning of the ep)?  Just curious.  I'd love to see the actual image.  

[tessathereaper]

25 minutes ago, PinkChicken said:

Not a stupid question. These are the tweets I have seen shared the most. NOTE the clearer page of text is an example only not some magically enhanced or leaked version of the actual document, they're just trying to show people that its a pretty standard format for job listings.  

The only words I could ever make out are "Minimum Requirements" but there may be other screengrabs going around because I have seen some people absolutely certain it was law enforcement, firefighting, or army because of some of the dot points they would quote.

 

 

I don't know what the person in the last tweet is trying to say.  It was signed so it wasn't just a listing, more likely it was a job CONTRACT, which would have listed job requirements and expectations, which actually means he probably already had the job.

I saw one on tumblr that did look like a cleared up version of the one on Dean's desk, of course now I can't find it again.

Edited December 4, 2020 by tessathereaper

[MAK]

6 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

IMO the whole "writing their story thing" is such a crock.  It doesn't fit with the show, it doesn't even really fit with what happened.  Chuck was never WRITING their story.  They made their own choices and decisions, they trained their whole lives.  He set up the pieces and then he WROTE about what they did.  But near the end rather than being satisfied with just writing and making doing a little nudge, he wanted more and more control and he started to get angry he couldn't control them.  But he never really had all that much control to begin with.

This isn't lack of plot armor, this is just bad writing by Andrew Dabb.

100% agree with this!

6 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

IMO the whole "writing their story thing" is such a crock.  It doesn't fit with the show, it doesn't even really fit with what happened.  Chuck was never WRITING their story.  They made their own choices and decisions, they trained their whole lives.  He set up the pieces and then he WROTE about what they did.  But near the end rather than being satisfied with just writing and making doing a little nudge, he wanted more and more control and he started to get angry he couldn't control them.  But he never really had all that much control to begin with.

This isn't lack of plot armor, this is just bad writing by Andrew Dabb.

100% agree with this!

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, PinkChicken said:

Not a stupid question. These are the tweets I have seen shared the most. NOTE the clearer page of text is an example only not some magically enhanced or leaked version of the actual document, they're just trying to show people that its a pretty standard format for job listings.  

The only words I could ever make out are "Minimum Requirements" but there may be other screengrabs going around because I have seen some people absolutely certain it was law enforcement, firefighting, or army because of some of the dot points they would quote.

 

Thanks!

 

[MAK]

On 12/4/2020 at 9:30 AM, ahrtee said:

Forgive me if this is a stupid question (as I've said before, I'm not on any SM so I only read about things here or by Googling) but who saw/said that the papers on Dean's desk were a job application?  I know it was said that someone capped and enlarged the image, but that image hasn't shown up anywhere that I can find, but all of a sudden it's taken as fact.  

Has anyone, in fact, actually seen that screen cap?  Or did someone come up with the idea and everyone ran with it (since they were trying to figure out the time gap at the beginning of the ep)?  Just curious.  I'd love to see the actual image.  

Would it sadder if this was in fact an application for a small business or an application for a liquor license? They might have been planning to start a bar.

[SueB]

Whatever it is, he signed it. 
 

Time amount: It’s not unambiguous in any one direction IMO.  Days, weeks, months, years (reported by some on SM as what Jared said).  
 

On screen, it is ambiguous.  Not necessarily on purpose.   We can have vigorous debate but even if Dabb said it was days, there’s conflicting evidence in execution.  If Jared was in fact saying ‘5 years’, there’s conflicting evidence in execution.  
 

I’m biased towards more than days/ weeks.  But I think ‘proof’ within the evidence of what was on screen, is not ‘proof’.  It’s just data points that are conflicting. 

[gonzosgirrl]

If five years went by without Cas finding a way to let his 'best friend' know that he wasn't condemned to an eternity in the Empty on his behalf, he's an even bigger a-hole than I thought.

Same for letting Sam live out his life not knowing Dean's fate, if we're to accept Badd's canon that a soul that'd been to Hell couldn't go to Heaven. No reason he should assume Gack bent the rules for Dean,  seeing as how he let him die an unnecessary death. 

Apart from that, any number of 'years' passing makes Sam's lament at the pie festival even weirder. 

ETA: I realize Gack was going to be hands-off, and these aren't things that 'normal' people get to know or do, but we're supposed to accept that Dean and Sam were the surrogate fathers of the new God. A little favourtism wouldn't have been out of line. 

Edited December 5, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[ILoveReading]

Here is why I don't believe anything more than a week or two passed.  For the simple reason that its Dabb.   He's not subtle, he uses a sledgehammer.  Carry On, Jack in the Box, Destiny's Child, Despair, Inherit the Earth.  All literal. 

If Dabb wanted fans to know that years had passed it would have been put up on the screen.

4 hours ago, SueB said:

Days, weeks, months, years (reported by some on SM as what Jared said).  

Jared said different things to different people.   So I think we have to take anything he said her with a grain of salt. 

In the opening montage, there was a camouflage jacket in Dean's room, so I saw spec they might be enlistment papers, as a reference to Jensen's new role.

 

[ahrtee]

35 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Here is why I don't believe anything more than a week or two passed.  For the simple reason that its Dabb.   He's not subtle, he uses a sledgehammer.  Carry On, Jack in the Box, Destiny's Child, Despair, Inherit the Earth.  All literal. 

If Dabb wanted fans to know that years had passed it would have been put up on the screen.

Hell, yes.  That wasn't a montage of multiple days to show time passing:  it was a single day in chronological order, starting with Dean's alarm, waking up, playing with the dog, breakfast, washing dishes, washing clothes, researching hunts and finding the pie contest.  It may have been one day after any number of other ones, but that wasn't shown.  They didn't appear to be doing things by rote or looking bored, so it couldn't have been too long. 

And I imagine Dabb would be wetting himself with joy at the "irony" of Dean being killed almost immediately after "winning," without getting the chance to enjoy it. 

Other interpretations IMO are based on hearsay, head canon and wishful thinking; which is not to say they might not be true, just that, no, there wasn't any proof shown on screen.  Even the purported job application can't really be seen as proof, since it takes so much manipulating  even to see it and the casual viewer (or even fan without access to either equipment or a SM account--like me) wouldn't have known about it at all.  My thought is that it was more like another easter egg (saying that Jensen was moving on to another job, like the call out to Austin/Walker) aimed at those fans who were looking for them.  (BTW, the only thing I could make out in the screen grab was "Minimum Requirements," which is more of a job description than an actual application, and which can be signed by the person authorizing the job, not necessarily by the person applying.)  

But I'm all for other interpretations, especially if it makes someone feel better about the ending.  I just don't believe it was Dabb's intention.  

 

[companionenvy]

The more I've sat on it, the more I think the ending was a lazy cheat.

If the showrunners wanted to kill Dean, or Sam, or both, they should have had the balls to do it without a sure-fire promise of New and Improved Heaven. If they wanted to go for bitter-sweet rather than sad, they could have given a glimpse of heaven, or maybe just the promise that Dean was in heaven (as they did in establishing Cas had gotten out of the Empty). But it shouldn't have been more than that. For all its detours into other realms, this was ultimately a show set in and concerned with the problems of this world, and the conclusion should have relied on Sam and Dean's fates in this world for its emotional effect.

As it is, they're essentially giving us a sad ending, but gaslighting us into seeing it as a happy one. Or, from another perspective, giving us a happy ending, but one that rings as completely hollow and inauthentic because it relies on something so detached from human experience. 

You can have a show with angels and devils, God and Satan, and still have it grounded in a human reality, as long as the people are still acting in recognizably human ways and undergoing recognizably human experiences. Usually, this was true of SPN. Even the boys' time in hell, as far beyond the scale of human suffering as their experiences were, was in the end a super-sized version of the kinds of traumas that someone might actually have to cope with. Ending the show with everyone winding up happy forever in heaven , by contrast, brings us to a place that, by definition,  we as humans can't go or really appreciate. 

A happy ending needs to be centred on earthly experience, or it is worthless. I would much, much have preferred an ambiguous "We've [still] got work to do" ending in which Sam and Dean just drive off to their next maybe-adventure than the inauthentic pablum we got.

[SueB]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

 

In the opening montage, there was a camouflage jacket in Dean's room, so I saw spec they might be enlistment papers, as a reference to Jensen's new role.

 

Too old.  You can’t join older than 35.  
 

Not that facts matter ....

[ahrtee]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

 

In the opening montage, there was a camouflage jacket in Dean's room, so I saw spec they might be enlistment papers, as a reference to Jensen's new role.

 

IA.  If anything, it was a wink to "Soldier Boy."

[MAK]

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

IA.  If anything, it was a wink to "Soldier Boy."

I haven't watched The Boys, but I did read the wikipedia bio of the comic's Soldier Boy. He seems to be one of Dean's worst nightmares. A superhero who does more bad than good, not because he is evil, but because he is inept and continuously fails at doing good. 

[MAK]

5 hours ago, companionenvy said:

The more I've sat on it, the more I think the ending was a lazy cheat.

If the showrunners wanted to kill Dean, or Sam, or both, they should have had the balls to do it without a sure-fire promise of New and Improved Heaven. If they wanted to go for bitter-sweet rather than sad, they could have given a glimpse of heaven, or maybe just the promise that Dean was in heaven (as they did in establishing Cas had gotten out of the Empty). But it shouldn't have been more than that. For all its detours into other realms, this was ultimately a show set in and concerned with the problems of this world, and the conclusion should have relied on Sam and Dean's fates in this world for its emotional effect.

As it is, they're essentially giving us a sad ending, but gaslighting us into seeing it as a happy one. Or, from another perspective, giving us a happy ending, but one that rings as completely hollow and inauthentic because it relies on something so detached from human experience. 

You can have a show with angels and devils, God and Satan, and still have it grounded in a human reality, as long as the people are still acting in recognizably human ways and undergoing recognizably human experiences. Usually, this was true of SPN. Even the boys' time in hell, as far beyond the scale of human suffering as their experiences were, was in the end a super-sized version of the kinds of traumas that someone might actually have to cope with. Ending the show with everyone winding up happy forever in heaven , by contrast, brings us to a place that, by definition,  we as humans can't go or really appreciate. 

A happy ending needs to be centred on earthly experience, or it is worthless. I would much, much have preferred an ambiguous "We've [still] got work to do" ending in which Sam and Dean just drive off to their next maybe-adventure than the inauthentic pablum we got.

ITA. The ending could have been so much more, even with the COVID restrictions and limited cast. They used exposition in ep19, they could have in this episode also. They could have had voiceovers by JA and JP., or any number of other actors. Probably wouldn't have cost more either. They could have cards showing time passing or not, even a close up of a computer screen.

Why bother with other worlds on limited budgets. Just have Dean walk into the light, with a voiceover of him exclaiming Bobby! would have been enough. Then he could appear and be there when Sam walks into the light, as they are soulmates. They don't have to mention time "moves different" or anything. Like you said, leaving it up to our imaginations would have been better.

Unfortunately it seems the writers just wanted it to be over. 

[companionenvy]

5 hours ago, SueB said:

Too old.  You can’t join older than 35.  
 

Not that facts matter ....

Facts definitely don't matter in this case, since if we're paying attention to facts, there is no way that either Winchester could continue using their real names in any public capacity. They are still wanted many times over.

[gonzosgirrl]

Still don't buy that this isn't Memorex Heaven.  Otherwise why is Sam suddenly young again while Dean and Bobby are the ages they were when they died. 

For all Badd's assertions that he gave the show a 'definite' ending, he sure left a lot of room for interpretation.  And not in the good way. 

 

[PAForrest]

10 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Hell, yes.  That wasn't a montage of multiple days to show time passing:  it was a single day in chronological order, starting with Dean's alarm, waking up, playing with the dog, breakfast, washing dishes, washing clothes, researching hunts and finding the pie contest.  It may have been one day after any number of other ones, but that wasn't shown.  They didn't appear to be doing things by rote or looking bored, so it couldn't have been too long. 

And I imagine Dabb would be wetting himself with joy at the "irony" of Dean being killed almost immediately after "winning," without getting the chance to enjoy it. 

Other interpretations IMO are based on hearsay, head canon and wishful thinking; which is not to say they might not be true, just that, no, there wasn't any proof shown on screen...

..........

But I'm all for other interpretations, especially if it makes someone feel better about the ending.  I just don't believe it was Dabb's intention. 

No, I don't believe so either - whatever else may have happened with this script, I have no doubt the one thing that Dabb wanted to convey is Dean being killed stupidly on what looked like a first hunt after 19, with no time to enjoy the supposed freedom they just earned.

It's pretty obvious that Dean's death, especially coming so quickly on the heels of a victory, is what Jensen - Dean's #1 fan - really struggled with. And he's not alone by any stretch of the imagination, obviously. That may be why there are conflicting reports about what Jared said WRT the timeline, or why Jared even tried to spin it at all seeing as the panel happened a few days after the finale aired and they were all fully aware of the backlash by then.

I didn't watch Jared's panel and am certainly not privy to any of the private m&g aspects - but I've heard he said it was two weeks, two years, five years? Which was it - or was it really all of them? Like I said, sounds more like after the fact damage control, which is a thankless position for these guys to be in, and he was just guessing.

Trust me, I desperately want to believe it wasn't exactly the way we saw it on screen. Dean being cut down so ingloriously in the prime of his life just ruins everything that comes before for me. I don't know if it would go down even slightly better if we were definitively told it was at least a year or more and many hunts later, or not. But it couldn't be worse than this. I'm at the point, despite the brilliant performance in the barn, that I have to mentally work to ignore the finale completely and head fanon the series ending at 19 - which is a weak as shit episode too, but one with at least a more hopeful ending.

I also struggle with the whole Dean driving around aimlessly/Sam popping up 40 years or a half hour later timeline. Bobby says time happens differently in whatever that heaven was - which I agree doesn't really look like any different from memorex heaven. So if you're going to try and convince me that Dean didn't drive around miserably for 40 years until Sam shows up, and it was a much shorter time, then that brings up a whole other hornet's nest of problems. Because if Sam shows up for Dean after about an hour, then frankly an hour after that, so should Sam's kid, and an hour after that, the kid's kids, and so on and so on, ad nauseam. That's just weird and frankly makes the whole place super crowded.

[companionenvy]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Still don't buy that this isn't Memorex Heaven.  Otherwise why is Sam suddenly young again while Dean and Bobby are the ages they were when they died. 

For all Badd's assertions that he gave the show a 'definite' ending, he sure left a lot of room for interpretation.  And not in the good way. 

 

I don't think that suggests that it is Memorex heaven. Memorex or not, heaven is still magic, for lack of a better word. Presumably, most people who died in old age would want to return to a younger body, whereas I can see how even someone who died at Bobby's age would prefer to keep his appearance at the time of death. There's no reason everyone should either have to look like they did at death, or have to look like they did at age 25.

Plus, practically speaking, the show had to have a Bobby who looked liked the Bobby we knew. 

[gonzosgirrl]

28 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I don't think that suggests that it is Memorex heaven. Memorex or not, heaven is still magic, for lack of a better word. Presumably, most people who died in old age would want to return to a younger body, whereas I can see how even someone who died at Bobby's age would prefer to keep his appearance at the time of death. There's no reason everyone should either have to look like they did at death, or have to look like they did at age 25.

Plus, practically speaking, the show had to have a Bobby who looked liked the Bobby we knew. 

Which is why showing Heaven at all was a bad idea. You just can't have it both ways and have it make sense. Why would Bobby choose to be an old man, and not young and with his wife? Is there magic that makes each individual see the other people in the way that makes themselves feel most comfortable? This, IMO, still lends itself to individual 'heavens', where you have what makes you happy. That is a whole other kettle of fish as far as this being what Dean's personal heaven would be, but there again...

If they had no time, or inclination, to answer these questions they should have not showed it at all. Because, IMO, it does not make sense, even with a 'magic' hand-wave. Only Sam chooses to go back to his young self? Nah.

[DeeDee79]

8 hours ago, MAK said:

I haven't watched The Boys, but I did read the wikipedia bio of the comic's Soldier Boy. He seems to be one of Dean's worst nightmares. A superhero who does more bad than good, not because he is evil, but because he is inept and continuously fails at doing good. 

Kripke has already said that the Soldier Boy that Jensen will be playing will be much different than the comic. All of the characters have been altered from their comic counterparts so what you read in Wikipedia isn’t necessarily accurate to the show.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Which is why showing Heaven at all was a bad idea. You just can't have it both ways and have it make sense. Why would Bobby choose to be an old man, and not young and with his wife? Is there magic that makes each individual see the other people in the way that makes themselves feel most comfortable? This, IMO, still lends itself to individual 'heavens', where you have what makes you happy. That is a whole other kettle of fish as far as this being what Dean's personal heaven would be, but there again...

If they had no time, or inclination, to answer these questions they should have not showed it at all. Because, IMO, it does not make sense, even with a 'magic' hand-wave. Only Sam chooses to go back to his young self? Nah.

It seems to me that this particular type of heaven is more like a djinn's happy dream--everyone and everything you wanted around you (and the age you remember them) and no one you don't.  But whether it's that (new head canon) or NuHeaven, Dean is still being manipulated into believing he's happy, which, as you say, is far from what Dean would want.  

One more (silly) question:  Dean drove around for 30 + years and didn't feel the need to stop for a cheeseburger or pie?  What the hell kind of heaven is that?

 

7 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Facts definitely don't matter in this case, since if we're paying attention to facts, there is no way that either Winchester could continue using their real names in any public capacity. They are still wanted many times over.

Not to mention, their fingerprints should be in every database in the universe.  They can use the Campbell name (as they did in Lebanon) and maybe Charlie or someone gave them real SS numbers, but they can't apply anywhere where fingerprints are required.  

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

One more (silly) question:  Dean drove around for 30 + years and didn't feel the need to stop for a cheeseburger or pie?  What the hell kind of heaven is that?

Bobby specifically said time was different so he probably drove around for like a half hour. The sun was up the entire time anyway.

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

but they can't apply anywhere where fingerprints are required.  

Is that a big thing?  I've never had my fingerprints taken and I've had a few jobs.  I mean sure, he couldn't be a cop or go into the military, but I doubt that would be what he would want.  I really do kind of want to know what he was doing for a living.  Did he just decide to go hotel handyman like last time?  Fake ID or not, I don't think he'd want to chance anything that required a license like lawyer, CPA, teacher, or doctor.

[MAK]

14 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Hell, yes.  That wasn't a montage of multiple days to show time passing:  it was a single day in chronological order, starting with Dean's alarm, waking up, playing with the dog, breakfast, washing dishes, washing clothes, researching hunts and finding the pie contest.  It may have been one day after any number of other ones, but that wasn't shown.  They didn't appear to be doing things by rote or looking bored, so it couldn't have been too long. 

And I imagine Dabb would be wetting himself with joy at the "irony" of Dean being killed almost immediately after "winning," without getting the chance to enjoy it. 

Other interpretations IMO are based on hearsay, head canon and wishful thinking; which is not to say they might not be true, just that, no, there wasn't any proof shown on screen.  Even the purported job application can't really be seen as proof, since it takes so much manipulating  even to see it and the casual viewer (or even fan without access to either equipment or a SM account--like me) wouldn't have known about it at all.  My thought is that it was more like another easter egg (saying that Jensen was moving on to another job, like the call out to Austin/Walker) aimed at those fans who were looking for them.  (BTW, the only thing I could make out in the screen grab was "Minimum Requirements," which is more of a job description than an actual application, and which can be signed by the person authorizing the job, not necessarily by the person applying.)  

But I'm all for other interpretations, especially if it makes someone feel better about the ending.  I just don't believe it was Dabb's intention.  

 

Yes, the montage only showed the morning of one day, from Dean waking up when his alarm goes off at 8 am to finishing cleaning his weapons at 10:00 am. Maybe he was surfing the net for 15/20 minutes before Sam joined him.  It was never meant to show passage of time, only the brothers' routine now that they are "free." Passage of time was totally ignored, probably intentionally.

The application/legal document whatever it is, shows some time has passed. Because even if it takes only minutes to procure, they did not run out and get it the next day. They had to decide to go get it, making some plan. If they got up the next day, and montage happened, when did Dean go get it? They left for the pie fest immediately. 

Even if habits/routines can be formed in 7 days, the decision to form the the said habits/routines take some time. The only spur of the moment decisions these characters made all their lives were to throw themselves into the line of fire to save someone (mostly each other) and to sacrifice themselves for the greater good (or each other). 

Now all of a sudden they went for a drive and wrote out a routine to follow starting the next day? That would be OOC. Also Dean decided to only drink beer overnight? Where was his flask when they went out on the case? Again, OOC.

I guess, you can take it that with Chuck's defeat, the Winchesters are no longer the Winchesters, and everything that they did was because Chuck wrote it, and they had no agency. Now, they become totally different people who decide to form healthy habits within 24 hours of their last battle. Also plot armor kept them alive, hence Dean dies stupidly on their first hunt. (Not saying it wasn't the first hunt after everything).

Also, after Sam leaves the Bunker, his montage starts with little Dean being 2 or 3 years old. Nothing on screen to show what happened in between, but because his child is 2 or 3, we can say definitely that at least 2 to 4 years have passed. 

I understand that there is nothing on screen showing passage of time, but there are too many random things that show time must have passed, a few weeks or a few months, probably not a year.

[ahrtee]

12 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Bobby specifically said time was different so he probably drove around for like a half hour. The sun was up the entire time anyway.

Is that a big thing?  I've never had my fingerprints taken and I've had a few jobs.  I mean sure, he couldn't be a cop or go into the military, but I doubt that would be what he would want.  I really do kind of want to know what he was doing for a living.  Did he just decide to go hotel handyman like last time?  Fake ID or not, I don't think he'd want to chance anything that required a license like lawyer, CPA, teacher, or doctor.

I don't know about now, in our more paranoid times.  I worked at the UN for a couple of years back in prehistoric times, and I had to have my fingerprints taken *every time* I got my contract renewed (at first, every six months), I assume to make sure someone hadn't slipped in a ringer in my place.  And I wasn't doing anything particularly interesting or even secure--I was in the English language typing pool.  I also had my fingerprints taken when I was on grand jury a few times.  

I know now you have to go through background checks even to work with children, so I don't know what else requires it these days.  But if someone thinks Dean was applying to the military or police, I'd think he'd know better than to even try.  Sam could go back to school with his new identity and become something better than handyman, but he wouldn't be able to use any of his previous school records.  

[ahrtee]

25 minutes ago, MAK said:

Yes, the montage only showed the morning of one day, from Dean waking up when his alarm goes off at 8 am to finishing cleaning his weapons at 10:00 am. Maybe he was surfing the net for 15/20 minutes before Sam joined him.  It was never meant to show passage of time, only the brothers' routine now that they are "free." Passage of time was totally ignored, probably intentionally.

The application/legal document whatever it is, shows some time has passed. Because even if it takes only minutes to procure, they did not run out and get it the next day. They had to decide to go get it, making some plan. If they got up the next day, and montage happened, when did Dean go get it? They left for the pie fest immediately. 

Even if habits/routines can be formed in 7 days, the decision to form the the said habits/routines take some time. The only spur of the moment decisions these characters made all their lives were to throw themselves into the line of fire to save someone (mostly each other) and to sacrifice themselves for the greater good (or each other). 

Now all of a sudden they went for a drive and wrote out a routine to follow starting the next day? That would be OOC. Also Dean decided to only drink beer overnight? Where was his flask when they went out on the case? Again, OOC.

I guess, you can take it that with Chuck's defeat, the Winchesters are no longer the Winchesters, and everything that they did was because Chuck wrote it, and they had no agency. Now, they become totally different people who decide to form healthy habits within 24 hours of their last battle. Also plot armor kept them alive, hence Dean dies stupidly on their first hunt. (Not saying it wasn't the first hunt after everything).

Also, after Sam leaves the Bunker, his montage starts with little Dean being 2 or 3 years old. Nothing on screen to show what happened in between, but because his child is 2 or 3, we can say definitely that at least 2 to 4 years have passed. 

I understand that there is nothing on screen showing passage of time, but there are too many random things that show time must have passed, a few weeks or a few months, probably not a year.

I'm not saying that it *can't* be more than a day or two.  I'm just saying that *nothing* they actually showed indicates it, whether deliberately or not, so *everything* is dependent on the viewer's interpretation.  As you pointed out, Sam's montage *did* show time passing, in youngDean's appearance and aging (sorry, I can't say "little Dean" without giggling).  They deliberately showed that time had passed, and it's not open to any other logical interpretation.  

I'm still disregarding the papers on Dean's desk, because, in the one quick view we got of them (which was after he'd died), there was no way of seeing what exactly they were--notes on a new case, papers taken out of the MoL library (like plans to the building to see if there were any more hidden rooms), or menus he was planning to try.  Only the most dedicated fans took the time to capture, enlarge and study the pages, which is why I think it was an easter egg for them, not anything to do with the show.  

Again, JMO.  Everyone is welcome to their own interpretations, as long as they recognize that it's *not* canon as shown.  

TBH, I'd be happy to believe that Dean was infected by a djinn at the pie festival and everything that happened afterwards was a dream.  Even his being trapped upright against a beam in the barn is reminiscent of how Sam found him in the djinn's lair back in WIAWSNB.  ☺️

[Katy M]

47 minutes ago, MAK said:

Also, after Sam leaves the Bunker, his montage starts with little Dean being 2 or 3 years old. Nothing on screen to show what happened in between, but because his child is 2 or 3, we can say definitely that at least 2 to 4 years have passed. 

Unless it was a soap opera child.  Then, it could have just been a month or so.  Which could also explain why kid was still kind of young when Sam was old and dying.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

Unless it was a soap opera child.  Then, it could have just been a month or so.  Which could also explain why kid was still kind of young when Sam was old and dying.

Or a nephilim.  Maybe the unidentified baby mama was...supernatural?😊

[Katy M]

51 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Or a nephilim.  Maybe the unidentified baby mama was...supernatural?😊

That's a good point.  Maybe the show was trying to tell us something by the son still being so young when Sam died. He married a pureblood werewolf.  But, knowing Sam, he'd be more likely to hook up with a demon than an angel.

[tessathereaper]

5 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I'm not saying that it *can't* be more than a day or two.  I'm just saying that *nothing* they actually showed indicates it, whether deliberately or not, so *everything* is dependent on the viewer's interpretation.  As you pointed out, Sam's montage *did* show time passing, in youngDean's appearance and aging (sorry, I can't say "little Dean" without giggling).  They deliberately showed that time had passed, and it's not open to any other logical interpretation.  

I'm still disregarding the papers on Dean's desk, because, in the one quick view we got of them (which was after he'd died), there was no way of seeing what exactly they were--notes on a new case, papers taken out of the MoL library (like plans to the building to see if there were any more hidden rooms), or menus he was planning to try.  Only the most dedicated fans took the time to capture, enlarge and study the pages, which is why I think it was an easter egg for them, not anything to do with the show.  

Again, JMO.  Everyone is welcome to their own interpretations, as long as they recognize that it's *not* canon as shown.  

TBH, I'd be happy to believe that Dean was infected by a djinn at the pie festival and everything that happened afterwards was a dream.  Even his being trapped upright against a beam in the barn is reminiscent of how Sam found him in the djinn's lair back in WIAWSNB.  ☺️

Me too, that would fit perfectly. 🙂  It's a djinn dream.  

IMO even if it was a job application, contract whatever, it doesn't actually take that long, so it was a couple weeks, As you mention, I don't think anyone was suggesting it was the next day but a couple weeks, even a month isn't much time, that's the whole point.  The fact is episode 19 showed them getting a very definite END to what had been going on, they believed it was.  So they were of the mindset that they could do something new, right away.  They weren't gradually realizing things had changed, they knew it had, as of 19.

Plus even before that the Winchesters would have had certain "habits" or routines when they weren't out of the bunker on a case or doing something "mytharc" related.  They would have eaten most days, Dean would have cleaned his weapons most days, etc, etc.  It's not like they would have needed to start a whole new routine from scratch anyway.  

To me it case across as there still being a novelty to it for them, like the idea was still new to them, new enough for it to be fresh and interesting.

Edited December 6, 2020 by tessathereaper

[Castiels Cat]

6 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I don't know about now, in our more paranoid times.  I worked at the UN for a couple of years back in prehistoric times, and I had to have my fingerprints taken *every time* I got my contract renewed (at first, every six months), I assume to make sure someone hadn't slipped in a ringer in my place.  And I wasn't doing anything particularly interesting or even secure--I was in the English language typing pool.  I also had my fingerprints taken when I was on grand jury a few times.  

I know now you have to go through background checks even to work with children, so I don't know what else requires it these days.  But if someone thinks Dean was applying to the military or police, I'd think he'd know better than to even try.  Sam could go back to school with his new identity and become something better than handyman, but he wouldn't be able to use any of his previous school records.  

But Charlie is the best hacker evah!!!!

On 12/2/2020 at 2:08 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

I think this is the one (and only) thing Badd got right. If Dean had died saving Sam, it would just be one more way to make it all about Sam and Sam's survivor's guilt. It is right that Dean die saving innocents - Badd just did an incredibly, well, bad job of writing it, both in execution and follow through.

Maybe that is what bothers me... 

[Castiels Cat]

On 12/3/2020 at 1:02 PM, Casseiopeia said:

Maybe but they had 2 episodes dealing with the Winchester's losing their "magic" and then winning it back in a pool game.  Dabb managed to destroy 11 seasons (the last 4 don't count) of Supernatural during his way too long tenure. What makes me think that the Winchesters lost their mojo in the finale was that they weren't very smart in the final hunt. Just a few minutes before the Barn Sam shot the vamp with DMB. Why show that and then have the brothers go into the barn with just machete's? I know that Dabb has a hard time following his own scripts but that was a pretty glaring in your face mistake for the brothers (and even Dabb) to make. I can only surmise that he wrote that scene to follow through with his original premise for the season that the Winchesters never had any agency. They were manipulated their entire lives (even Dean  wanted off the hamster wheel so bad he almost shot his brother) by Chuck. When they finally did get "free" from the puppet master the first hunt (at least that we see) they go in reckless and unprepared. Dean dies....pretty much episode/series over.

If that was his premise he should have been summarily fired. And his earlier episodes never add up to that.

1. It's shown it's bad luck because the goddess of luck turns it all around.

2. Who says that Garth knows everything. When has Garth ever been an expert on anything?

3. Chuck explains his process to Amara in Unity. 

4. Dean has been going off script throughout the series and he has gotten other characters doing it too. None of that is on Chuck.

 .

[SueB]

6 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I'm still disregarding the papers on Dean's desk, because, in the one quick view we got of them (which was after he'd died), there was no way of seeing what exactly they were--notes on a new case, papers taken out of the MoL library (like plans to the building to see if there were any more hidden rooms), or menus he was planning to try.  Only the most dedicated fans took the time to capture, enlarge and study the pages, which is why I think it was an easter egg for them, not anything to do with the show.  

Again, JMO.  Everyone is welcome to their own interpretations, as long as they recognize that it's *not* canon as shown.  

I struggle with ANYONE declaring they have the definition of canon.  Especially if you are explicitly ignoring something shown on screen (as you've deemed it unimportant).

The show was a collaborative effort.  And they left 'canon' up to interpretation in MANY areas. Sometimes by mistake (IMO), sometimes on purpose.  Example: The Grand Canyon trip.  Even the writer acknowledged that was a canon mistake.  I'd also say that there were clearly some Destiel shippers in the prop department, definitely some of the writers, and potentially some (but definitely not all) of the actors.  They intentionally left the Destiel relationship open to interpretation.  My personal interpretation is that it WAS a love declaration by Cas but that Dean was shocked by what was happening and was not prepared for that declaration.  I know what I think his answer would ultimately be, but I think Dabb intentionally didn't have it addressed on screen (IMO Dean didn't view Cas romantically).  If Bob Berens had been the showrunner, would that have been the case?  IDK.  Further, J2 have both said, in recent interviews, that they have acted like creative producers since Kim Manners' position was not replace.  And the finale was one of many examples where the boys changed up the lines or something that was pretty important in a scene. So... MANY cooks in the soup, even with the episodes 'as aired'.  I don't think you could get everyone actually involved in one episode give the definition of 'canon' for a fair amount of many episodes. 

My point:  unless EXPLCITY stated on screen (ex: the date Dean was resurrected from Hell), declaration of canon is not reasonable by any fan and dubious by the actual creative team.

 

[tessathereaper]

58 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

If that was his premise he should have been summarily fired. And his earlier episodes never add up to that.

1. It's shown it's bad luck because the goddess of luck turns it all around.

2. Who says that Garth knows everything. When has Garth ever been an expert on anything?

3. Chuck explains his process to Amara in Unity. 

4. Dean has been going off script throughout the series and he has gotten other characters doing it too. None of that is on Chuck.

 .

#4 especially.  Dean had been going off script, Dean got other characters to go off script.  Dean's bond with Amara, Dean's bond with Castiel, all of them were based on DEAN himself, not on Chuck.

If nothing else that would mean Dean would be the LEAST likely to have suddenly die on a piece of rebar after Chuck stopped writing.  It showed Dean as a kind of force of nature, one that not even Chuck could really control all that much.  If anything that really should have been explored more and again, if anything that should have given Dean a sort of special place in this universe.  Yes Dean was human, very human but through the strength of his own will, the generosity of his own heart, he'd kind of become more than that.

[ahrtee]

43 minutes ago, SueB said:

My point:  unless EXPLCITY stated on screen (ex: the date Dean was resurrected from Hell), declaration of canon is not reasonable by any fan and dubious by the actual creative team.

That actually *is* my point.  Anything explicitly stated (or shown) on screen is canon, anything else is the viewer's interpretation of what they see, which may or may not be the author's intentions.  The only exception is the legal description of circumstantial evidence, which will accept something as fact if it's the  only reasonable conclusion.  (As someone mentioned upthread, if we see Dean with longer hair in one scene and then short hair in the next, we don't have to actually see him in a barbershop to know it's been cut--though canon won't say if he or Sam cut it at home or if he did go to a barber. ) 

That's why trying to decide the length of time before Dean's death (or even what the papers on his desk said, much less what he intended to do with them) is NOT canon.  But the fact that everyone has their own interpretation is what makes fanfic, and interesting discussions.  

 

[SueB]

12 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

That actually *is* my point.  Anything explicitly stated (or shown) on screen is canon, anything else is the viewer's interpretation of what they see, which may or may not be the author's intentions.  The only exception is the legal description of circumstantial evidence, which will accept something as fact if it's the  only reasonable conclusion.  (As someone mentioned upthread, if we see Dean with longer hair in one scene and then short hair in the next, we don't have to actually see him in a barbershop to know it's been cut--though canon won't say if he or Sam cut it at home or if he did go to a barber. ) 

That's why trying to decide the length of time before Dean's death (or even what the papers on his desk said, much less what he intended to do with them) is NOT canon.  But the fact that everyone has their own interpretation is what makes fanfic, and interesting discussions.  

 

I see.  I thought you were making a declarative statement on what was canon for that time period .  Sorry for the confusion. 
 

To me, the period in question is 15.19 to 15.20. 

[MAK]

7 hours ago, Katy M said:

That's a good point.  Maybe the show was trying to tell us something by the son still being so young when Sam died. He married a pureblood werewolf.  But, knowing Sam, he'd be more likely to hook up with a demon than an angel.

Has anyone considered that if Dabb is a literalist (is that a word?), then Sam found this child soon after leaving the bunker.

Perhaps he was left an orphan in the werewolf case in Austin? Sam decided to take him in. When the child was 8/10 (throwing around a baseball) Sam had acquired a girlfriend/partner. A few years later (Sam and kid studying) girlfriend/partner no longer in picture. When Sam sits alone in Impala, kid has gone to college/hunt/runaway whatever. When Sam is dying, kid comes back. 

Explains lack of family photos since kid had no family and there was no long term "mother" figure/partner; the tattoo because kid was a supernatural survivor; why the kid is so short (all Winchesters were tall); and kind of how Sam was very stiff in his interactions with the kid (although COVID might have been the cause of that).

[MAK]

3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

That actually *is* my point.  Anything explicitly stated (or shown) on screen is canon, anything else is the viewer's interpretation of what they see, which may or may not be the author's intentions.  The only exception is the legal description of circumstantial evidence, which will accept something as fact if it's the  only reasonable conclusion.  (As someone mentioned upthread, if we see Dean with longer hair in one scene and then short hair in the next, we don't have to actually see him in a barbershop to know it's been cut--though canon won't say if he or Sam cut it at home or if he did go to a barber. ) 

That's why trying to decide the length of time before Dean's death (or even what the papers on his desk said, much less what he intended to do with them) is NOT canon.  But the fact that everyone has their own interpretation is what makes fanfic, and interesting discussions.  

 

I agree with everything you are saying, but would like to add that the characters themselves and their history within the show are also canon. The way Dean and Sam react to situations is canon because they have been in similar situations (losing people) before and have reacted in certain ways, and have certain coping mechanisms. They can't just suddenly do a 180 and decide "From today I am going to be different," that would be so OOC for them.

[MAK]

3 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

lol I will be the first to agree that if Dabb wanted us to think something, he would have bashed us over the head with it just to be sure. Despite the whole "I think the finale will leave fans without any doubts" or whatever the heck they said I think if something could be left up for interpretation, they left it as open as possible.

I like the idea of Sam adopting a kid after all the not-adopted cast we have had. I love all the ideas around why the kid stayed looking so young too lol. What if instead, Sam actually wasn't all that old but just ended up getting some kind of degenerative disease that made him look like that way too young?

I think in this case that 15.19 could be the exception without breaking character (obviously IMO only- the above discussion about "canon" is quite good). Because they are actually on the same page at the moment, ready to get on with their lives, actually able to support each other for once, and they are really left with a "what will you do now" and have to provide their own answer.

After season 1 and John they had John's words hanging between them, after Castiel they had Sams issues between them. Even after Bobby, Sam's issues aren't entirely in the rearview mirror and they still had the leviathan to deal with - and I think that's probably the most comparable situation; AND we did get a little grieving montage there before a call pulled them out of it. After Kevin they had the Gadreel thing between them, after Charlie they had the MOC and Sam's secret plans between them. After they cured Dean and did take a bit of a break, the MOC was still an issue and arguably played a (however small) part into how restless he was with the holiday. There has always been some other drama to act as a further catalyst for their terrible decisions, something that needs to be done which makes them put their problems to the side, and there has always been some kind of world ending scenario. 

I think after 15.19 Sam would be together enough & it would not be ooc at all to think Sam would keep or pull Dean out of it pretty quick. Sam could still be getting up for his runs every day, potentially using that time to keep the kitchen stocked with healthy shit etc. They don't have to get it right and actually stick to it every day, but I think randomly having a good day and thinking "from today I'm going to be different" is completely in character in so far as how impulsive Dean can be, and 15.19 leaves them the space to do that because everything has changed around them anyway. The way they are left at the end of 15.19 has made "continue doing what we have always done" an active choice too. If we assume Chuck put everyone else back, then apart from Castiel its a massive win, and Castiel wouldn't really leave a gaping hole in their breakfast/laundry routine. 

If its a job application it could be something he searched up and printed out to sign & send, in the span of half an hour on a good day, and we don't know if he sent it. We dont know what the hunter load is anymore or how much spare time they have -we don't even know if its just some short term cover for a different case. We also don't know if he was researching ways to pull Castiel out of the empty on the side like he was apparently doing for Sam the whole time with Lisa. I don't think it was the very next day either, but I don't think it was shown to be more than a few weeks. Because of the smaller character things like you say, like imo it would be more in character for Sam to be the one to find the first case and drag them out to get Dean to get the ball rolling again. If Sam really showed interest in hanging it up though - and 15.19, is as good a time as any right? Then it is completely in character for Dean to maybe consider that over what he wants to do (or to consider taking the initiative and quitting himself, to help push Sam out so he will be safe). With the world pretty much saved and a large enough network to make hunter referrals, putting Sam against hunting is hardly even a question. They both know that neither of them will let the other hunt alone or be able to stay fully out if the other is still in, so I think that would make Dean consider his options.

If they had shown them making this decision and continuing to hunt part time it would have made the "it was supposed to end like this right?" ring a bit different for recent seasons too. 

Yes to all of this except one point.

Because there was always a bigger picture problem (world-ending or brother-ending) going on, they always had suppress their grief and continue fighting.  Since there is no other thing going on after defeating Chuck, I think they would allow themselves to grieve properly this time. However long it took, a few days, a few weeks, or a few months.

The only reason we are considering the document, whatever it is, signficant is because the camera passed by it close enough to see it's some kind of document.  They thought it was important enough to show (no matter how out of focus). IMO, the document shows that Dean was planning for something in the future, he was not depressed and wallowing, he was moving on. Which makes his death even sadder.

 

[Katy M]

5 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

I like the idea of Sam adopting a kid after all the not-adopted cast we have had. I love all the ideas around why the kid stayed looking so young too lol. What if instead, Sam actually wasn't all that old but just ended up getting some kind of degenerative disease that made him look like that way too young?

Maybe it was a different kid.  Maybe Sam was a serial kidnapper.  Like the Alpha vamp.  He named them all Dean.

[MAK]

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

Maybe it was a different kid.  Maybe Sam was a serial kidnapper.  Like the Alpha vamp.  He named them all Dean.

Someone already wrote a story about Sam adopting an infant he found during the werewolf hunt in Austin. Surprise! His name was already Dean!

[ILoveReading]

17 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

#4 especially.  Dean had been going off script, Dean got other characters to go off script.  Dean's bond with Amara, Dean's bond with Castiel, all of them were based on DEAN himself, not on Chuck.

Dean's been off script since Jensen was cast in the role.  I can't and won't believe Chuck ever controlled him, when the writers literally and metaphorically couldn't.  Screw that.

[S Cook Productions]

On 12/5/2020 at 8:03 PM, PinkChicken said:

I didn't notice that, but this makes the most sense, given Jared also got a shoutout with that call from Austin. 

(Don't really like it from the in-universe Dean perspective though. To think he went from only just getting freedom & being able to chose whatever and deciding he really couldn't live a nice life so he had to jump right back in in other ways - & also the implication its kinda following in Johns footsteps as a marine)

I personally don't think so. I think you have to be under 27 to join the military for the first time.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, S Cook Productions said:

I personally don't think so. I think you have to be under 27 to join the military for the first time.

Yeah.  Dean's way too old to join the military unless there's a huge war and they literally need all hands on deck.

[Aeryn13]

18 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Yeah.  Dean's way too old to join the military unless there's a huge war and they literally need all hands on deck.

Well a good thing then he just died uselessly in some random barn. 

[tessathereaper]

16 hours ago, MAK said:

I agree with everything you are saying, but would like to add that the characters themselves and their history within the show are also canon. The way Dean and Sam react to situations is canon because they have been in similar situations (losing people) before and have reacted in certain ways, and have certain coping mechanisms. They can't just suddenly do a 180 and decide "From today I am going to be different," that would be so OOC for them.

And nothing about opening scenes of the finale was them doing a 180, aside from Dean having a dog, it was just them with the pressure off.