S15.E18: Despair

[sarthaz]

It's such a weird feeling to know that Misha and Jensen gave everything to that scene, and that it's one of the more important things to happen in the show's entire run, and just not connect to it emotionally because of how poorly everything has been handled for years. Between the plot line being the exact same plot as other seasons (one character goes right to the edge of self-sacrifice but is stopped at the last second by another) and Billie scraping her scythe on the bunker walls like she's Freddy Krueger, it was all just so laughable that I couldn't connect to Misha's big moment. It all makes me sad.

[SueB]

A fan asked THE question in the small group M&G and transcribed the answer (click to read lovely, nuanced answer):

 

 

[Binns]

7 minutes ago, SueB said:

A fan asked THE question in the small group M&G and transcribed the answer (click to read lovely, nuanced answer):

 

 

Wow, thank you for posting this! He navigated that well. I think he makes a great point that Dean was having to absorb a LOT all at once and he tried to show that in his acting. 

[PAForrest]

8 hours ago, SueB said:

A fan asked THE question in the small group M&G and transcribed the answer (click to read lovely, nuanced answer):

I saw this on twitter last night, and I agree it's a great answer by Jensen. I know things get edited, as he said, but I admit it's a little disappointing not to see the stuff by both men he was referring to. Maybe a longer unedited version of that scene will make it to the dvd extras that will end up on youtube.

As a very long time slasher from many a fandom, I know in reality what we did get there was a lot - and the actors/writer believing the interpretation should be left up to each individual is as much as one can hope for and should be grateful to get. I don't know who the really nasty aggressive hater side of Misha's fandom are and where they came from - I've come to suspect they're not even fans of the show, may not even watch the damn thing, but somehow they latched onto Misha and decided Jensen was the guy they were going to dogpile for fun. They really ruined the relationship for a lot of us.

I thought that was the best answer Jensen could give, and it's really lovely to read how much the scene honestly meant to both of them.

[gonzosgirrl]

Jensen's reaction was exactly what I expected. There was no time to react fully, he/Dean doesn't necessarily think Cas, a celestial being, was romantically/sexually 'in love', but he understands that people are going to take from it what they need and that's okay. I'm surprised he actually sought out a fan reaction video. It warms my heart as much as it makes me sad that he cares so much about how the character and the situation is seen. Happy because he's such a dedicated, invested actor, and sad to think the he probably also so a lot of the hate, despite saying he didn't go to Twitter.

I also hope we get to see the full scene some day. Maybe he'll share some of the raw footage from his phone. 🙂

[Myrelle]

9 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Jensen's reaction was exactly what I expected. There was no time to react fully, he/Dean doesn't necessarily think Cas, a celestial being, was romantically/sexually 'in love', but he understands that people are going to take from it what they need and that's okay. I'm surprised he actually sought out a fan reaction video. It warms my heart as much as it makes me sad that he cares so much about how the character and the situation is seen. Happy because he's such a dedicated, invested actor, and sad to think the he probably also so a lot of the hate, despite saying he didn't go to Twitter.

I also hope we get to see the full scene some day. Maybe he'll share some of the raw footage from his phone. 🙂

IMO, he's been way too good for this show for a long time now, but at this point, he's become way too good for parts of the fandom also.

[Airmid]

Okay, so I wasn’t sure if I wanted to put this in the Unpopular/Bitterness thread as despite the view here it seems like everyone and their dog is still fawning at least over Cas’ part in this episode or to put it here. Since it’s about a specific part of the episode, I’ll dump it here. It took me a while to put my thoughts together as to just why I really, really disliked Cas’ Swan Song.

I should say first off that I’ve never been that big into Destiel though I could see where fans were getting it from and honestly could see it developing at certain points over the series. Unfortunately, two attractive men being friends who actually had an intimate relationship [not sexual] isn’t seen as friendly TV viewing so any step forward has always come with about ten back. Just wanted to give an insight into my viewpoint and I do read Destiel fanfaction even if I can’t seem to write them more than platonic or one-sided myself most of the time.

So onwards to why this whole Cas confession/death scene does not work for me and apologies it's so long:

- The script is clunky and weirdly, this scene actually should have been longer. Rewatching it, Cas just seems to have this epiphany out of nowhere and wants to use his deal [more on that in a second] to bust Dean out of this. But you can’t just command yourself to be happy and it’s hard to understand how after the past few years [more on this also in a minute] Cas can actually just be “It’s in the being not the having” and truly happy while Dean gets to stand there like a mute fish. The whole thing feels very inorganic, just that the writers were visiting their most current corner, dredged this plot point up, and then shoved it on in so the series could keep going.

- Dean should have known about the deal way before this point and have Castiel just trying to comfort him here, reaching an understanding within himself what’s happening. The fact Dean has no idea what’s going on doesn’t help, it hurts the storyline for me. A good time to bring it up would have been after closing the hell rift. It also would have allowed Dean to understand Cas’ reasoning better. It doesn’t make up for Mary’s death at all, but it’s a deal that Dean himself would of made for someone he loved and also the heartbreak that Jack, knowing about the deal, still just dithered away his soul on useless things before eating alt-Michael, hence rendering Cas’ sacrifice meaningless up to this point. But that would have painted Jack in a bad light and we can’t do that, even if keeping him the way he’s been makes the character completely unlikable to me.

- Not once does Cas apologize to Dean for anything, even for any pain in general he may have caused him over the years of their relationship. I’m not going to say Dean was a saint here, he’s not, and he hasn’t always been great with Cas, but Cas, whoa boy, Cas has done some stuff, really bad stuff. And Cas has had a habit of choosing a lot of stuff over Dean. It’s been a bad rut he was stuck in for years that wasn’t good for his character, but it was a thing that had happened, with the most current thing being Jack. I’ll just straight up say that I do not like them together in any way under Dabb, their relationship did not make me feel good and I highly dislike this rather dysfunctional relationship declared good, especially with the hand waving of all the previous hurt/betryals/pain as though a declaration of love undoes that.

- “I can never have what I want.” This line, tossed in, has so many problems. For one, it seems to be telling Dean what he feels and what he can and cannot give. And if Cas really is declaring romantic love for Dean, the problem for Dean may go a whole lot deeper than gender – it may be Cas himself that Dean can’t love in that way no matter what he looks like. It’s also a line that was created to feed a part of the fandom that really wanted Destiel but couldn’t have it because one of the people involved was straight in canon. It certainly does hoist a whole lot onto Dean’s shoulders and he never gets a chance to process any of this, let alone decompress and understand what he's feeling.

- I still don’t think Cas knows Dean. Sure, he knows the soul he dug out of hell, the one he got really attached to and ended up following to his death after rebelling from heaven and overcoming the control he was under. That’s all fine, it speaks volumes to what/who Dean actually is. The problem is that Dean is someone who isn’t shown a lot of kindness, that doesn’t have people who tell him how much they love him on a regular basis, or that he is a good person. He’s so far buried in his self-loathing that he’s not going to hear anything Cas is telling him outside that his family is dying to save him all over again. If anything, this will only traumatize him even if it is cathartic for Cas. I don’t think Cas has ever really seen Dean for Dean, he has an idea of Dean and wants to save Dean, but he’s never really gotten to know Dean after their first little bit together. He knows Dean will always save him, rip apart monster heaven for him, grieve him, but I don’t think he gets Dean as a person.

- This scene is designed to not ‘give in’ to the Destiel, which is wrong on so many levels. It provides JA with not a whole lot to do during this love confession and makes Dean come off a bit like he’s not with Cas at the end. This is a creature that Dean still loves very deeply, it’s okay for them to be close, show, it’s okay for one of them to love the other in a way the other can’t return and actually be told this is okay. It would be okay for Dean to tell him that if they get through this, he’ll come find a way to dig Cas out of the Empty.

- Nothing comes from this scene. Cas dies and Dean just totally loses it and nary is it mentioned again. Cas is mentioned a couple of times, but not this. Dean doesn’t look stronger, in fact, he breaks more and is willing to give up. Sure, the sacrifice lets Dean putter around on earth but at the end of the day, neither brother really has a strong part in how this plays out. Strangely, if Dean had gone with Cas to the Empty, the same finale would have happened, just with a distraught Sam. I’m trying to think of a spot where Dean was pivotal and it couldn’t have happened without him but can’t.

TL;DR – I hate this scene. It had the potential to be good but because of the years of nastiness between the two characters involved that was never addressed, rushed feel, and no impact on anything after, it not only falls flat but makes me uncomfortable that this is presented as a good thing. This could have been really good IMO, especially the meaning of Castiel being happy and wanting to give his life so that Dean could find it too, it just wasn't there.

[MAK]

On 12/9/2020 at 12:28 AM, Airmid said:

Okay, so I wasn’t sure if I wanted to put this in the Unpopular/Bitterness thread as despite the view here it seems like everyone and their dog is still fawning at least over Cas’ part in this episode or to put it here. Since it’s about a specific part of the episode, I’ll dump it here. It took me a while to put my thoughts together as to just why I really, really disliked Cas’ Swan Song.

I should say first off that I’ve never been that big into Destiel though I could see where fans were getting it from and honestly could see it developing at certain points over the series. Unfortunately, two attractive men being friends who actually had an intimate relationship [not sexual] isn’t seen as friendly TV viewing so any step forward has always come with about ten back. Just wanted to give an insight into my viewpoint and I do read Destiel fanfaction even if I can’t seem to write them more than platonic or one-sided myself most of the time.

So onwards to why this whole Cas confession/death scene does not work for me and apologies it's so long:

- The script is clunky and weirdly, this scene actually should have been longer. Rewatching it, Cas just seems to have this epiphany out of nowhere and wants to use his deal [more on that in a second] to bust Dean out of this. But you can’t just command yourself to be happy and it’s hard to understand how after the past few years [more on this also in a minute] Cas can actually just be “It’s in the being not the having” and truly happy while Dean gets to stand there like a mute fish. The whole thing feels very inorganic, just that the writers were visiting their most current corner, dredged this plot point up, and then shoved it on in so the series could keep going.

- Dean should have known about the deal way before this point and have Castiel just trying to comfort him here, reaching an understanding within himself what’s happening. The fact Dean has no idea what’s going on doesn’t help, it hurts the storyline for me. A good time to bring it up would have been after closing the hell rift. It also would have allowed Dean to understand Cas’ reasoning better. It doesn’t make up for Mary’s death at all, but it’s a deal that Dean himself would of made for someone he loved and also the heartbreak that Jack, knowing about the deal, still just dithered away his soul on useless things before eating alt-Michael, hence rendering Cas’ sacrifice meaningless up to this point. But that would have painted Jack in a bad light and we can’t do that, even if keeping him the way he’s been makes the character completely unlikable to me.

- Not once does Cas apologize to Dean for anything, even for any pain in general he may have caused him over the years of their relationship. I’m not going to say Dean was a saint here, he’s not, and he hasn’t always been great with Cas, but Cas, whoa boy, Cas has done some stuff, really bad stuff. And Cas has had a habit of choosing a lot of stuff over Dean. It’s been a bad rut he was stuck in for years that wasn’t good for his character, but it was a thing that had happened, with the most current thing being Jack. I’ll just straight up say that I do not like them together in any way under Dabb, their relationship did not make me feel good and I highly dislike this rather dysfunctional relationship declared good, especially with the hand waving of all the previous hurt/betryals/pain as though a declaration of love undoes that.

- “I can never have what I want.” This line, tossed in, has so many problems. For one, it seems to be telling Dean what he feels and what he can and cannot give. And if Cas really is declaring romantic love for Dean, the problem for Dean may go a whole lot deeper than gender – it may be Cas himself that Dean can’t love in that way no matter what he looks like. It’s also a line that was created to feed a part of the fandom that really wanted Destiel but couldn’t have it because one of the people involved was straight in canon. It certainly does hoist a whole lot onto Dean’s shoulders and he never gets a chance to process any of this, let alone decompress and understand what he's feeling.

- I still don’t think Cas knows Dean. Sure, he knows the soul he dug out of hell, the one he got really attached to and ended up following to his death after rebelling from heaven and overcoming the control he was under. That’s all fine, it speaks volumes to what/who Dean actually is. The problem is that Dean is someone who isn’t shown a lot of kindness, that doesn’t have people who tell him how much they love him on a regular basis, or that he is a good person. He’s so far buried in his self-loathing that he’s not going to hear anything Cas is telling him outside that his family is dying to save him all over again. If anything, this will only traumatize him even if it is cathartic for Cas. I don’t think Cas has ever really seen Dean for Dean, he has an idea of Dean and wants to save Dean, but he’s never really gotten to know Dean after their first little bit together. He knows Dean will always save him, rip apart monster heaven for him, grieve him, but I don’t think he gets Dean as a person.

- This scene is designed to not ‘give in’ to the Destiel, which is wrong on so many levels. It provides JA with not a whole lot to do during this love confession and makes Dean come off a bit like he’s not with Cas at the end. This is a creature that Dean still loves very deeply, it’s okay for them to be close, show, it’s okay for one of them to love the other in a way the other can’t return and actually be told this is okay. It would be okay for Dean to tell him that if they get through this, he’ll come find a way to dig Cas out of the Empty.

- Nothing comes from this scene. Cas dies and Dean just totally loses it and nary is it mentioned again. Cas is mentioned a couple of times, but not this. Dean doesn’t look stronger, in fact, he breaks more and is willing to give up. Sure, the sacrifice lets Dean putter around on earth but at the end of the day, neither brother really has a strong part in how this plays out. Strangely, if Dean had gone with Cas to the Empty, the same finale would have happened, just with a distraught Sam. I’m trying to think of a spot where Dean was pivotal and it couldn’t have happened without him but can’t.

TL;DR – I hate this scene. It had the potential to be good but because of the years of nastiness between the two characters involved that was never addressed, rushed feel, and no impact on anything after, it not only falls flat but makes me uncomfortable that this is presented as a good thing. This could have been really good IMO, especially the meaning of Castiel being happy and wanting to give his life so that Dean could find it too, it just wasn't there.

ITA with everything you just said. Also, this show wasn't a rom-com style drama with the sexual tension between leads fostering the "will they or won't they" debate. After 15 years of a rich mythology, to reduce the finale to the sexual orientation of one of the main characters is doing the show injustice. 

[tessathereaper]

So apparently I'm hearing that part of the script or the script for this episode was posted online by someone.  Anyone see it?

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

So apparently I'm hearing that part of the script or the script for this episode was posted online by someone.  Anyone see it?

There was a 'screen cap' that went around after the episode that ended up being fake. But 'Dean Winchester' is trending on Twitter right now and I don't know why, so...

[tessathereaper]

6 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

There was a 'screen cap' that went around after the episode that ended up being fake. But 'Dean Winchester' is trending on Twitter right now and I don't know why, so...

That's what I mean I've heard it was because of this new script "leak" but haven't been able to find it. LOL  The only thing I've gathered it that apparently the words "Still beautiful.  Still Dean Winchester" appear.  

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, tessathereaper said:

That's what I mean I've heard it was because of this new script "leak" but haven't been able to find it. LOL  The only thing I've gathered it that apparently the words "Still beautiful.  Still Dean Winchester" appear.  

@ILoveReading shared this with me on Twitter.

 

[BabySpinach]

57 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

There was a 'screen cap' that went around after the episode that ended up being fake. But 'Dean Winchester' is trending on Twitter right now and I don't know why, so...

Looks like it's good stuff, mostly about that newly-revealed script line "Still beautiful, still Dean Winchester," which I FULLY SUPPORT! 

This fucking show, lmao. It's been over for three weeks and there's STILL stuff coming out about it and people freaking out on social media.

Edited December 12, 2020 by BabySpinach

[gonzosgirrl]

The only thing I find hard to believe is that Berens wrote that. I know he wrote Castiel's words, but to describe Dean that way as a side? Hmmm.

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The only thing I find hard to believe is that Berens wrote that. I know he wrote Castiel's words, but to describe Dean that way as a side? Hmmm.

His words or not, they have taken off.

Sometimes the truth will out, no matter what, come hell or high water...

Edited December 12, 2020 by Myrelle

[tessathereaper]

24 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

His words or not, they have taken off.

Sometimes the truth will out, no matter what, come hell or high water...

Someone mentioned they might be fake because they didn't have a watermark and I didn't notice it at first either, but there actually is a faint water mark on the pages(supernatural).  So I don't know maybe it is real?

If Berens came up with that, well hell, even a stopped clock is right twice a day. 🙂  Dean Winchester was beautiful, just in his being, sure he LOOKED great, but his real beauty was so so much more than skin deep. 

Doesn't suddenly make me think Berens is any better of a writer than he was before.  These last few seasons the only writers who either stuck around or got hired were bottom of the barrel(or not even writers, but Dabb's PA who couldn't even be bothered to watch half the show)

Edited December 12, 2020 by tessathereaper

[The Companion]

16 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

Looks like it's good stuff, mostly about that newly-revealed script line "Still beautiful, still Dean Winchester," which I FULLY SUPPORT! 

This fucking show, lmao. It's been over for three weeks and there's STILL stuff coming out about it and people freaking out on social media.

There are actually several pages that are floating around:

https://mobile.twitter.com/TeamFreeWillBT/status/1337556042171871232

 

The script doesn't vary substantially from what was delivered but the Cas POV has hit a lot of people hard and there is a lot of discussion about the direct "Cas pulls Dean close," which appears at the awkward cut when Cas pushes Dean sideways weirdly. 

[ahrtee]

26 minutes ago, The Companion said:

There are actually several pages that are floating around:

https://mobile.twitter.com/TeamFreeWillBT/status/1337556042171871232

 

The script doesn't vary substantially from what was delivered but the Cas POV has hit a lot of people hard and there is a lot of discussion about the direct "Cas pulls Dean close," which appears at the awkward cut when Cas pushes Dean sideways weirdly. 

It's been a long, LONG time since I took any scriptwriting classes, but IIRC the idea was *not* to choreograph every movement (and especially emotions) in a scene.  Directors map out actions and camera angles, actors interpret the emotions, unless it's something unusual that the writer specifically wants to highlight.  It's especially insulting to actors in a long-running show who have put their own interpretations into the characters to tell them how to react (or how to show their reactions).  So you can say, "A devastated Cas pulls Dean close," but not, "with tears in his eyes, Cas holds on to Dean as if trying to hold on to the only joy in his life."  That's the kind of stuff that goes into novelizations, not shooting scripts, at least as I was taught.  

I'd be a little suspicious of where those leaked pages actually came from.

[The Companion]

20 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

It's been a long, LONG time since I took any scriptwriting classes, but IIRC the idea was *not* to choreograph every movement (and especially emotions) in a scene.  Directors map out actions and camera angles, actors interpret the emotions, unless it's something unusual that the writer specifically wants to highlight.  It's especially insulting to actors in a long-running show who have put their own interpretations into the characters to tell them how to react (or how to show their reactions).  So you can say, "A devastated Cas pulls Dean close," but not, "with tears in his eyes, Cas holds on to Dean as if trying to hold on to the only joy in his life."  That's the kind of stuff that goes into novelizations, not shooting scripts, at least as I was taught.  

I'd be a little suspicious of where those leaked pages actually came from.

Is it legit/real? I am not sure but it is pretty subtle for a fake. If someone faked it, why not put in something more gamechanging? There was also a Twitter thread with Adam Williams who did special effects on the show verifying it (but the thread is a complete mess, so I don’t know that his word is dispositive.

Edited December 12, 2020 by The Companion
Dyac

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, The Companion said:

Is it legit/real? I am not sure but it is pretty subtle for a fake. If someone faked it, why not put in something more gamechanging? There was also a Twitter thread with Adam Williams who did special effects on the show verifying it (but the thread is a complete mess, so I don’t know that his word is disposition. 

I'm not saying the basic premise was fake (as in, say, Cas hugged Dean.)  I'm saying the over-the-top description of Cas's emotions were suspect.  It sounds too much like the author (whoever it is) is trying to get his/her interpretation legitimized without changing the actual scene.  (And, as I said, most "professional" writers wouldn't put that much description into a shooting script.  Of course, we're talking "professional"...😊)  

[Aeryn13]

7 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I'm not saying the basic premise was fake (as in, say, Cas hugged Dean.)  I'm saying the over-the-top description of Cas's emotions were suspect.  It sounds too much like the author (whoever it is) is trying to get his/her interpretation legitimized without changing the actual scene.  (And, as I said, most "professional" writers wouldn't put that much description into a shooting script.  Of course, we're talking "professional"...😊)  

I think since Berens literally used his last episode on the show for his very personal Destiel cameo (the same way Bucklemming used theirs for their last Lucifer-fest and Badd used his to stick it to Jensen), I can actually see him doing a script full of purple prose. Just like that.

[ILoveReading]

34 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

It's been a long, LONG time since I took any scriptwriting classes,

I think its even longer for the SPN writers I mean that Megan Fitzmartin (Dabb's assistant) wrote, 'a beat because I broke my own heart' and Berens writing in badass Sam fights vampires looking like a half cowboy, half Christ figure.  Professional they aren't.

 

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, The Companion said:

Is it legit/real? I am not sure but it is pretty subtle for a fake. If someone faked it, why not put in something more gamechanging? There was also a Twitter thread with Adam Williams who did special effects on the show verifying it (but the thread is a complete mess, so I don’t know that his word is dispositive.

IMO? Because a large majority of the people tweeting/retweering it are citing it as more 'proof' that Destiel is a) real,  and b) made canon by this episode.  Somehow the 'subtlety ' only adds to their conviction. I'd suggest that if their conspracy theory were true and this is vindication,  why would the person not leak the next page? You know, the one where Dean responds with his own declaration. Because that would destroy the illusion. But it is not worth it. They cannot be swayed.

ETA: okay, I see that the following pages were also leaked, with the same wording we saw before ("Dean 'can't' reciprocate, etc). So who knows why this seems to have encouraged the spec even more. I should know better than to try to figure out this fandom, lol.

 

Edited December 12, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[Aeryn13]

14 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

IMO? Because a large majority of the people tweeting/retweering it are citing it as more 'proof' that Destiel is a) real,  and b) made canon by this episode.  Somehow the 'subtlety ' only adds to their conviction. I'd suggest that if their conspracy theory were true and this is vindication,  why would the person not leak the next page? You know, the one where Dean responds with his own declaration. Because that would destroy the illusion. But it is not worth it. They cannot be swayed.

 

I know. But at this point better like this than after the episode aired and Jensen got dragged through the mud. At least his dislike of the Finale made him their "spokesperson" again. It was crazy.

On one hand I find it sad that the show's legacy after 15 years is at best a huge mess. On the other hand Badd ended it so badly and basically destroyed the show wholesale, invalidating everything and anything, it seems fitting that a dumpster fire is his "legacy".

[Airmid]

On 12/12/2020 at 8:57 AM, ahrtee said:

I'd be a little suspicious of where those leaked pages actually came from.

I am too, tbh. Even all the way back in HS for me [God, I feel so old now, it was when was Prodigy was in its hay-day as an internet provider], in AP English, we had an assignment to write scripts for a national competition. And one of the big things even then was not to over direct, that the script should be able to be interesting and stand on it's own without a whole bunch of notes as to what the actors were feeling since we weren't actors, we were the writers. If the emotion needed a whole bunch of explanation to come through right, then we did it wrong. When I've seen scripts in the past that have that kind of stuff in them I usually think fake and am correct.

Though if it was thought necessary to just add all that to an actual SPN script, then it's just proof how lousy the writing has been for a long time and I'd be embarrassed that my maudlin fan service that fell flat is currently floating around on the interwebs.

On 12/12/2020 at 9:35 AM, gonzosgirrl said:

ETA: okay, I see that the following pages were also leaked, with the same wording we saw before ("Dean 'can't' reciprocate, etc). So who knows why this seems to have encouraged the spec even more. I should know better than to try to figure out this fandom, lol.

People are going to see what they want to see even if it's not reality. It's sucks that there's some really over-wrought reviews over a scene not really worth that kind of emotional investment and a 'couple' that haven't even really qualified as friends in the last year at least. We have two characters that have barely had screen time together for years, yet fans are digging around for proof of this relationship. 

[Katy M]

21 hours ago, Airmid said:

And one of the big things even then was not to over direct, that the script should be able to be interesting and stand on it's own without a whole bunch of notes as to what the actors were feeling since we weren't actors, we were the writers. If the emotion needed a whole bunch of explanation to come through right, then we did it wrong.

Not commenting on this supposed leaked script, but I do know that in the commentary for When the Levee Breaks, Sera Gamble said they stuck as much direction into the scripts as possible so the director wouldn't have to guess at what they wanted.

[gonzosgirrl]

36 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Not commenting on this supposed leaked script, but I do know that in the commentary for When the Levee Breaks, Sera Gamble said they stuck as much direction into the scripts as possible so the director wouldn't have to guess at what they wanted.

Maybe this is more common for shows with so many guest directors like SPN, opposed to a director who is more familiar with the characters on a week-to-week basis?

[ahrtee]

53 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Maybe this is more common for shows with so many guest directors like SPN, opposed to a director who is more familiar with the characters on a week-to-week basis?

It may be fine for new guest directors, but it's kind of insulting to the regular actors who know their characters better than the writers do.   

They've been sticking to more familiar directors than new ones, especially lately. Do you think buck lemming would write that kind of direction for a script that singer or dabb was directing?

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Maybe this is more common for shows with so many guest directors like SPN, opposed to a director who is more familiar with the characters on a week-to-week basis?

Yeah, I think that's pretty much what she said.  Like I said, wasn't commenting about this situation directly.  Just thought it was an interesting tidbit to go with the other comment.

[Airmid]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

Not commenting on this supposed leaked script, but I do know that in the commentary for When the Levee Breaks, Sera Gamble said they stuck as much direction into the scripts as possible so the director wouldn't have to guess at what they wanted.

I find it pretty humorous that she made the comment on that episode - aka the one where Sam Winchester became unredeemable for at least a year if not longer to too many fans [personally, it was the next one with the nurse that did me in on the character for some time]. 

You'd think for an episode like that where there's a delicate balance to keep, that they'd all have a pow-wow and make sure everybody was on the same page. 

I'd think cramming in bunch of extra junk would make a script overly busy for anyone needing it - from actors to the directors. Like why not separate out the stage directions from the lines in these cases so your people aren't trying to dig through everything and limit the chance of something being missed?

59 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

It may be fine for new guest directors, but it's kind of insulting to the regular actors who know their characters better than the writers do.   

And regular directors for that matter. The shows had several return ones including some of their cast come direct who frankly probably know the show better than the writers at that point [or really do know it better, depending on what showrunner was up at the time].

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

Yeah, I think that's pretty much what she said.  Like I said, wasn't commenting about this situation directly.  Just thought it was an interesting tidbit to go with the other comment.

It is  :)

[PAForrest]

On 12/11/2020 at 7:00 PM, BabySpinach said:

Looks like it's good stuff, mostly about that newly-revealed script line "Still beautiful, still Dean Winchester," which I FULLY SUPPORT! 

This fucking show, lmao. It's been over for three weeks and there's STILL stuff coming out about it and people freaking out on social media.

Weeks - or was it months ago now, I can't even anymore - I was speculating that a script page from another episode couldn't possibly be correct because of all the stage direction. Surely 15 years in we wouldn't see that much stage direction. Right?

But as it turns out, if KatyM is correct about what Sera G said years ago, apparently SPN writers have been doing this all along. It's a thing with them. So sure, I buy it - seems likely enough. And considering the effusive praise Berens had Cas heap on Dean, which was the most shocking thing to come out of this episode from this particular writer - more than the love confession - it's not unreasonable to think that Berens also included the "Still beautiful" stage directions either. Because why not - Dean is, and always was.

I also think it's highly likely Cas was supposed to pull Dean closer - the movement does come off like that's exactly what he was going to do before he pushes him to the ground. That change could easily have been a director's choice, or even a editing choice.

On 12/8/2020 at 1:58 PM, Airmid said:

- The script is clunky and weirdly, this scene actually should have been longer. Rewatching it, Cas just seems to have this epiphany out of nowhere and wants to use his deal [more on that in a second] to bust Dean out of this. But you can’t just command yourself to be happy and it’s hard to understand how after the past few years [more on this also in a minute] Cas can actually just be “It’s in the being not the having” and truly happy while Dean gets to stand there like a mute fish. The whole thing feels very inorganic, just that the writers were visiting their most current corner, dredged this plot point up, and then shoved it on in so the series could keep going.

- Dean should have known about the deal way before this point and have Castiel just trying to comfort him here, reaching an understanding within himself what’s happening. The fact Dean has no idea what’s going on doesn’t help, it hurts the storyline for me. A good time to bring it up would have been after closing the hell rift. It also would have allowed Dean to understand Cas’ reasoning better. It doesn’t make up for Mary’s death at all, but it’s a deal that Dean himself would of made for someone he loved and also the heartbreak that Jack, knowing about the deal, still just dithered away his soul on useless things before eating alt-Michael, hence rendering Cas’ sacrifice meaningless up to this point. But that would have painted Jack in a bad light and we can’t do that, even if keeping him the way he’s been makes the character completely unlikable to me.

- Not once does Cas apologize to Dean for anything, even for any pain in general he may have caused him over the years of their relationship. I’m not going to say Dean was a saint here, he’s not, and he hasn’t always been great with Cas, but Cas, whoa boy, Cas has done some stuff, really bad stuff. And Cas has had a habit of choosing a lot of stuff over Dean. It’s been a bad rut he was stuck in for years that wasn’t good for his character, but it was a thing that had happened, with the most current thing being Jack. I’ll just straight up say that I do not like them together in any way under Dabb, their relationship did not make me feel good and I highly dislike this rather dysfunctional relationship declared good, especially with the hand waving of all the previous hurt/betrayals/pain as though a declaration of love undoes that.

I don't disagree with anything in your review, honestly. Drabb really changed Cas under his tenure, his loyalties became highly suspect. Not that they weren't at times before, but as soon as Jack was conceived and splatted out of his mommy, it's like Cas became a cult devotee and Jack was his Jim Jones.

But before the demon spawn, Cas was committed to the Winchesters most of the time. And he did have a special bond with Dean that wasn't denied by anyone on the show. So I guess for me, if one removed the Drabb years and the demon spawn, then the love confession doesn't come out of nowhere - it would have felt a lot more organic, because many on screen characters already assumed those feelings existed. In the end, that's why it works for me, ignoring the Drabb era as one wants to do anyway. And it's so freaking rare that anyone on this show says anything good or complimentary or loving to Dean, that I can't help but admit it sucked me in. It was about damn time - too little too late, sure, but someone said something nice to Dean Winchester! I'll take it.

As for apologizing to Dean, please, no one on this show rarely if ever apologized to Dean for anything awful they've ever done. Dean Winchester was the go-to character for apologies. Seriously, for 15 years I've simply assumed it was a white board mandate that stipulated only Dean Winchester would be made to grovel and apologize so that none of the other characters had to. Why? Who knows. My own feeling is it's because Dean was too popular for many of the producers, and the idiots thought it would knock him down a peg or two. It never did, but they never stopped trying.

Edited December 15, 2020 by PAForrest

[Airmid]

3 hours ago, PAForrest said:

So I guess for me, if one removed the Drabb years and the demon spawn, then the love confession doesn't come out of nowhere - it would have felt a lot more organic, because many on screen characters already assumed those feelings existed.

I think this is the crux of the problem for me with the situation - it plays on a lot of work by cast/crew/writers of previous seasons years before Dabb torpedo the whole thing and then relies on that to manipulate the audience because at least a good portion of fan base wants these two to be friends and to have that kind of relationship again. It's really underhanded, IMO and is made even worse by the fact that they basically made this scene pointless in their drive to never address anything while lifting nougat up to god-level, literally.

For me, I can't remove the Dabb years because this situation exists only because of Jack - Castiel forfeited his life and happiness for Jack to squander away and at least is able to make something useful in the end to save Dean's life. But I was never able to stop thinking about how Castiel did this for Jack during this whole thing. That combined with the leashing in of any possible responses for Dean because they didn't want to go one way or the other makes this scene not do anything for me, at least in a positive way at any rate

3 hours ago, PAForrest said:

As for apologizing to Dean, please, no one on this show rarely if ever apologized to Dean for anything awful they've ever done. Dean Winchester was the go-to character for apologies.

I don't disagree with you but given that the same writer wrote a previous script that forced Dean to get down on his knees in Purgatory, crying, while asking for forgiveness from Cas, the lack of any awareness of the need to apologize for Cas here leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. 

[MAK]

16 hours ago, PAForrest said:

As for apologizing to Dean, please, no one on this show rarely if ever apologized to Dean for anything awful they've ever done. Dean Winchester was the go-to character for apologies. Seriously, for 15 years I've simply assumed it was a white board mandate that stipulated only Dean Winchester would be made to grovel and apologize so that none of the other characters had to. Why? Who knows. My own feeling is it's because Dean was too popular for many of the producers, and the idiots thought it would knock him down a peg or two. It never did, but they never stopped trying.

Exactly this! Sam said that even after all this time he couldn't just "move on" from Jess., when Dean told him that they had to go on, not forget about it. In contrast, Sam told Dean in S8 to either move on or he will after Dean kept mentioning Sam not looking for him. And let's not forget Cas, "you wouldn't move on" after Jack killed Mary. Sure, someone just decides to "move on" after a parent's death, excuse me, it takes whatever time it takes. Different for everyone. Did they ever even have Sam and Cas acknowledge that had they listened when Dean asked them to choose him (Dean) just because he's asking, Lucifer would not have been released, and neither would the Leviathan. 

[Airmid]

9 hours ago, MAK said:

Lucifer would not have been released

Really depressing that this includes more than one occasion, too, seeing as he was against Sam's going to the Cage in S11 also. And then Cas stupidly said yes after Sam did the right thing and was willingly going to suffer to prevent Lucifer's escape. I just.../sigh

Given all the other times that if someone had just listened to Dean a world-ending crisis would have been avoided, it's kind of amazing Sam almost didn't end the universe by accident while living to old age. Maybe because Dean wasn't there to defy or lie to etc. Doesn't paint a real good picture of their relationship - together they ended up not being good for each other but without the other, Sam's just lost while it's implied Dean's heaven isn't complete [though he doesn't feel the passage of time nearly as much]. 

I really hope Dabb [ among others like the nepotism duo] never writes a story about these two again. Given how terrible he's made their relationship, I could see a sequel where Sam and Dean are in heaven, Sam gets upset over Dean being 'bossy' and then running off to do something that almost collapses heaven. Since that seems to be how this show rolls.