House Stark: Winter Is Coming

[jjjmoss]

3 seasons of being depressed and musing on life in various Northern locales.

GRRM's succinct summary of her in the last 3 seasons, which explains why my favorite in them has been Sansa over Arya: "Yoren had sworn to deliver her to Winterfell, only she had ended up in Harrenhal and Yoren in his grave. When she escaped Harrenhal for Riverrun, Lem and Anguy and Tom o’ Sevens took her captive and dragged her to the hollow hill instead. Then the Hound had stolen her and dragged her to the Twins." 

But the show at least had her interact with a few great characters who she does not in the books.

[Lady S.]

Here I am, embarrassing myself by crying over a fanvid (made after season 3). I guess because it sort of sums up my feelings after the season finale, that even if all the remaining Starks remain alive to the end, the family is pretty much gone in a way that will be nearly impossible to overcome. I'm not even one of those fans who has to watch because of the Stark family...it's just that the way the story arcs the last two seasons have gone makes me feel so very desolate about them. To be honest the story arcs for Arya and Bran and Sansa this season (which felt so much about slow deaths and their realizing they could only continue on if they were no longer a Stark) 

I'd say it's more about each of the Starklings surviving and learning skills their parents never had than becoming UnStarklike. They're all very different characters than they were in s1, but I don't think Ned is supposed to have had it all wrong, so much as made some very unfortunate decisions. Jon Snow is still trying to keep up the legacy of his Stark blood even while on a dishonorable mission to kill a man during peace negotiations. I'd say only Arya and Sansa have really had to leave their old identities, Bran had to turn away from Jon Snow for his higher destiny or whatever, but he's still very much a Stark, just one off doing his own thing like Rickon or missing Uncle Benjen. I feel like this season was a lot better for the Starks actually, even Sansa had some choice in what happened to her. I guess the closest thing to a Stark being acted upon would probably be Bran and his higher destiny, but as creepy as old tree cave dude, he's still no Littlefinger or Roose Bolton so it's not another typical Stark duping as we saw with Ned and Robb.

 

I did think of about Jaime/Tyrion's goodbye and realized there are 5 brotherly farewell scenes in House Stark, 6 if you count Bran's recent sighting of Jon. And 3 of the brother pairs (Ned/Benjen, Robb/Jon & Robb/Bran) have absolutely no chance of any future reunion.

[Pete Martell]

I think the Starks had their share of agency this season, I just felt like the narrative was pushing them toward realizing they could only move forward if they left their Stark identity behind. Arya's innate goodness was mocked by The Hound, and she later left him to die, instead of caring about "honor." When she wanted to try, one last time, to get back in touch with her Stark side (through reuniting with Jon), fate instead pushed her to Braavos. Sansa has to put on a brand new persona, and form an increasingly intimate (not romantically I must stress) bond with a man who was in the end an enemy of her family and was hated by her parents. Bran had to give up on reuniting with Jon, and then had the scene at the end where he asked if he could walk again, and the cave guy said, "No, but you can fly," which felt to me like saying he had to give up the shell of Bran Stark.

 

The only one who moved forward within his Stark identity was Jon. 

 

Perhaps they're saying Jon will be the one to bring them back together, but I feel like it was something of a point of no return this season.

[Lady S.]

I think any Stark reunion would have to center on Jon, just because he's the only one whose location and status is known to the others. (Bran sent Rickon to the Umbers' but who knows where he actually ended up.) In the debate about where the Stark girls could find safety, I'd say pass the buck to their eldest surviving brother, Castle Black is already providing free room and board to Gilly and baby Sam and Olly the ace archer. They could at least stay there temporarily til Jon figured out what to do with them. Do you really think Arya recovered the sword Jon gave her just to become a true Faceless Woman? I assumed Melly telling her they'd meet again meant somewhere in the North, unless Mel makes a trip to Braavos. And do you think Sansa is totally Littlefinger's creature and that Robin smashing her snow castle was her last Stark moment? I don't consider myself a very optimistic person, but I don't think there are no returns after this point. It's only the halfway point of the story.

[Pete Martell]

I don't think Sansa is Littlefinger's, but I feel like they're setting up a scenario where even if she reclaims the Stark name or lands, it will be very bittersweet. That she will have Winterfell, but it will be hollow.

 

I hope that won't be the case. 

[Rocket]

Arya the Assassin Queen sounds neat. 

 

Maybe when she marries Danny to be a dragon rider, need two Queens and a King there. 

[Lady S.]

I think Jon's more likely as a dragonrider, and Bran is a possibility as a dragon-warger, if such a thing is possible, I do think Arya will probably get to meet Dany, even before Dany's secret nephew Jon Snow. Arya's heading East, and if Dany ever moves her ass West, she could go back to the Free Cities on the coast. Arya and Dany have things in common as ruthless independent ladies who like riding horses and delivering black-and-white justice.

 

I don't think Sansa is Littlefinger's, but I feel like they're setting up a scenario where even if she reclaims the Stark name or lands, it will be very bittersweet. That she will have Winterfell, but it will be hollow.

 

I hope that won't be the case. 

Well, any ending will be bittersweet since the Starks have all been through a lot and been changed by it, but I don't think reclaiming Winterfell will be a hollow victory. I don't even believe Sansa will be the one reclaiming it when she goes home, Bran, Arya, and Jon have always had stronger Northern themes in their arcs and that hasn't changed. None of us can know with certainty, but I refuse to believe that

Jojen saying the wolves will come again

and

GRRM originally planning to title the 7th book A Time For Wolves

only refers to Sansa and/or stupid Rickon, who have been treated thus far as the Starks least important to the overall narrative. 

 

I mentioned in Sansa's thread that the music in her last 4.08 scene was a re-mix of the Winterfell theme, but the same is true for s4's last track when Arya is riding her white horse. 

The first thirty five seconds or so are a remix of the Stark theme, and then it switches to a remix of the main theme when Arya boards the ship. At 1:38 it switches to a version of Valar Morghulis, which was s4's tagline after all, but only the first two parts play over Arya's scenes.

 

 

ETA: Damnit, Dany, I keep typing dragon as drogon and having to go back and revise.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Lady S.

[Hecate7]

Arya the Assassin Queen sounds neat. 

 

Maybe when she marries Danny to be a dragon rider, need two Queens and a King there. 

She's more likely to assassinate Danaerys than marry her, and more likely to work for her than either marrying or killing her. I think Arya is asexual, with all of her erotic impulses sublimated into swords and killing. She might marry a sword. There are women who do things like marry the Eiffel Tower or their crossbows, nowadays, and I think Arya is one of those types of women. People are too ephemeral and unreliable. They die. Swords don't die, so I could see Arya making a lifelong commitment to one.

 

Marriage among royals is for breeding and succession, and so kings and queens have same-sex lovers, but marry the scion of a bloodline equal to their own, with whom they can reproduce. Certainly there are adoptions and proxy babies, but that stuff is top secret, because it touches national security. A publicly wed same-sex couple makes it too obvious that none of their children are biological heirs to the throne--too easy for the land to be thrown into a succession war upon their demise.

[DrSpaceman]

I have been rewatching Season One and while I like Ned STark, really, he was an idiot in season one. He played "the game" horribly. When Robert was about to die he should have taken the advice to kindap Joffrey and he should have been waiting outside the throne room with all the troops he could gather to prevent Joffrey or Cersei or any Lannister from attempting to usurp him in his bid to make Stannis the new king. Seriously he comes with a letter and some guards he rounds up and weekly claims who the king should be.........that just wasn't going to work. He let Joffrey on the throne to be declared king, juts a horrible job by him. Cersei even told him, earlier in the episode or the episode before, you play to win or you die. She was right. Much too weak of a response to the situation to keep Joffrey off the throne.

[Constantinople]

A lot of people were idiots in Season One.

 

Ned & Catelyn were probably the stupidest, but it's not as if their adversaries were smart, they just weren't as stupid.

 

The theme of the season could easily be Dumb & Dumber.

[Avaleigh]

Catelyn's decision to arrest Tyrion just makes me so angry. Ugh, there are so many other things she could have done! This woman had choices. She had nothing on Tyrion, no proof, and she actually thinks that Tywin Lannister is going to let this shit go and that there will be no repercussions? I find it all too frustrating and I hate that Catelyn is given a pass because she's a mother who is in pain. How many people had to pay for that stupid decision when she could have had Ned deal with the situation in KL. The guy is Hand, it isn't as though they couldn't have tried Tyrion in KL if they'd had a mind to. (Although again, where's the proof that he should be arrested and put on trial in the first place?) The business with the dagger and LF--again, this shit could have been dealt with in KL. There was no reason to kidnap Tyrion and make that trip to the Vale.

 

This single decision I think has frustrated me more than any other as far as the first season goes. There's a long list definitely but for me this is probably #1. 

[SeanC]

Her first thought is to take Tyrion to a secure location.  The road to King's Landing is not safe, nor is King's Landing itself, particularly.  At the Inn, she had two choices: either arrest him, or let him go, and the latter she opts against as she believes he's part of a conspiracy against the family and, if he leaves, he'll just go and tell people what he saw.

 

It's a no-win situation.

[Constantinople]

Arguably Catelyn did 2 things stupider than seizing Tyrion

 

1. Letting him go

 

2. Believing that Tyrion won the dagger from Littlefinger by betting against his brother Jaime.  I know Catelyn grew-up with Littlefinger and thinks she can trust him and blah, blah, blah, but come on.  Catelyn has lived all her life in a world where family means everything.  The Tully words place family before duty and honor.  So it should at least make Catelyn wonder why Tyrion would bet against his own brother.

[SeanC]

Arguably Catelyn did 2 things stupider than seizing Tyrion

 

1. Letting him go

 

2. Believing that Tyrion won the dagger from Littlefinger by betting against his brother Jaime.  I know Catelyn grew-up with Littlefinger and thinks she can trust him and blah, blah, blah, but come on.  Catelyn has lived all her life in a world where family means everything.  The Tully words place family before duty and honor.  So it should at least make Catelyn wonder why Tyrion would bet against his own brother.

1.  Catelyn didn't let him go.  Lysa did.  Catelyn wanted to keep him as a hostage.

 

2.  Catelyn doesn't think much of the Lannisters.

[Winnief]

Yeah, but didn't it ever occur to Cat that it was just as possible that someone stole the dagger from Tyrion's possession?!?  Someone close in the royal household perhaps.  Be awfully strange for a brilliant man like Tyrion to use a weapon that could be easily traced back to him.  It would make far more sense to *question* him first before doing anything rash.

 

And once it became clear Tyrion *wasn't* involved and never even had the dagger that should have alerted Cat to send a raven warning Ned that LF maybe wasn't so trustworthy after all-that might have made all the difference in those critical final hours.

 

I really do cling to "the wolves will come back."  For obvious reasons I believe Rickon to be the next Lord of Winterfell but I hope for great things for all the siblings.  Arya as a possible Master of Whispers (if she survives,) Bran will be an Old God like Bloodraven (why I think it's Rickon's destiny to rule Winterfell rather than Bran), Sansa will be a Great Lady, and even possible Queen but definitely the politician of the family, (which they sorely need-one Stark who knew how to play the Game and things NEVER would have turned out so badly for them,) and we all know Jon is destined for very, VERY big things indeed-certainly a dragonrider at the least, while Bran gets to be a dragon warger. 

Edited January 28, 2015 by Winnief

[SeanC]

Be awfully strange for a brilliant man like Tyrion to use a weapon that could be easily traced back to him.  It would make far more sense to *question* him first before doing anything rash.

Tyrion doesn't have a reputation as a brilliant man.  He's the Imp, a wastrel.  And Catelyn didn't have the opportunity to question him, as far as she knew -- if he got away, he would alert the Lannisters that something was going on (which happened anyway, but the difference is that she had secured, or so she thought, a valuable hostage; but Lysa ruined that).

[Avaleigh]

Catelyn had doubts as to Tyrion's guilt but she trudged on anyway because she'd decided that the Lannisters needed to pay. She had other options.

[SeanC]

Catelyn had doubts as to Tyrion's guilt but she trudged on anyway because she'd decided that the Lannisters needed to pay. She had other options.

At that point, no.

 

In any event, having Tyrion as a prisoner might have been a way to try to sort things out, but Lysa mucked that up.

Edited January 29, 2015 by SeanC

[Hecate7]

Tyrion doesn't have a reputation as a brilliant man.  He's the Imp, a wastrel.  And Catelyn didn't have the opportunity to question him, as far as she knew -- if he got away, he would alert the Lannisters that something was going on (which happened anyway, but the difference is that she had secured, or so she thought, a valuable hostage; but Lysa ruined that).

 

You don't lay in dozens of candles for a wastrel because you've heard he reads all night. Tyrion's reputation IS as a brilliant and learned man who should have been a Maester. The drinking and whoring are also part of his reputation, but you didn't see Catelyn worried about whether there'd be enough booze--she was very anxious to have enough candles for Tyrion Lannister in that first episode.

[Lady S.]

Catelyn had doubts as to Tyrion's guilt but she trudged on anyway because she'd decided that the Lannisters needed to pay. She had other options.

Like what? Turn him loose after the mountain clan raid and hope he smoothed things over with his family in time? Even if Tyrion wanted to make peace, I doubt Tywin would care to forgive the misunderstanding, the insult was that a Lannister was captured, not that he was falsely accused.

 

As for when he called her out at the inn, there was no possible lie that Tyrion would believe to explain why she was there in disguise, and when he alerted his siblings they could have moved against Ned and the girls at once, because they'd supposedly already killed one Hand and she believed Robert was useless to defend Ned ("you knew the man, the king is a stranger to you"), and then war would begin in any case. Making the first move did stay Jaime's hand from killing Ned in the street, and if Lysa hadn't fucked things up Ned could have been exchanged for Tyrion after he was arrested. Of course we know Tyrion would have probably laughed off any lie she gave just like he did the lies at Winterfell and certainly wouldn't have confided in Cersei or even revealed too much to Jaime, but that's the benefit of following Tyrion's adventures and already knowing what Cersei and Jaime were up to. Being as misinformed as Catelyn was, it's easy to understand why Catelyn would panic, and I've never understood how that panic is mistaken for "aha, gotcha, evildoer! off to the moon door, you go!".

 

You don't lay in dozens of candles for a wastrel because you've heard he reads all night. Tyrion's reputation IS as a brilliant and learned man who should have been a Maester. The drinking and whoring are also part of his reputation, but you didn't see Catelyn worried about whether there'd be enough booze--she was very anxious to have enough candles for Tyrion Lannister in that first episode.

A man can't enjoy medieval-style porno by candlelight? Kidding, but that's a pretty minor detail to hang a theory on.

A show-only detail unsupported by the text.

 

And just so I don't appear to be endorsing all of her mistakes, releasing Jaime in a doomed hostage exchange absolutely was putting family love above good sense, though I think Robb's cause was already headed bad places.

[Constantinople]

For the record, after this whole Snowmageddon thing, I'm really, really down on the Starks and their "Winter is Coming" shtick.

Perhaps that's why they air the show in Spring.

 

Arguably Catelyn did 2 things stupider than seizing Tyrion

 

1. Letting him go

 

2. Believing that Tyrion won the dagger from Littlefinger by betting against his brother Jaime.  I know Catelyn grew-up with Littlefinger and thinks she can trust him and blah, blah, blah, but come on.  Catelyn has lived all her life in a world where family means everything.  The Tully words place family before duty and honor.  So it should at least make Catelyn wonder why Tyrion would bet against his own brother.

 

 

1.  Catelyn didn't let him go.  Lysa did.  Catelyn wanted to keep him as a hostage.

Book: I don't remember one way or the other whether Catelyn wanted to keep Tyrion as a hostage.

Show: Did Catelyn say anything on the matter? After Bronn won disposed of Ser Vardis Egan, I thought Catelyn had this "Oh shit" look, like now they have to let him go.

 

2.  Catelyn doesn't think much of the Lannisters.

Which, IMO, not a defense to the charge of stupidity.

 

And just so I don't appear to be endorsing all of her mistakes, releasing Jaime in a doomed hostage exchange absolutely was putting family love above good sense, though I think Robb's cause was already headed bad places.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I got the sense that the Red Wedding was a consequence of letting Jaime go, the theory being that Walder Frey wouldn't throw a Red Reception unless he had the OK from Tywin, and Tywin wouldn't have OK'd it while Jaime was a Stark captive. Not that Catelyn would have foreseen this.

[Hecate7]

A man can't enjoy medieval-style porno by candlelight? Kidding, but that's a pretty minor detail to hang a theory on.

A show-only detail unsupported by the text.

 

 

It's not a minor detail. Catelyn Stark, who does not live in King's Landing, has heard, all the way out in Winterfell, that the Imp reads all night, and is laying in as many candles as possible. Dialogue is devoted to this, rather than to something else, like blankets or dogs or what room Cersei and Robert will be in. It is the sort of thing a writer does, early on, to establish who people are. Catelyn, we learn in one line, is a knowlegeable person, a conscientious hostess, and anxious to impress the Queen's brother and make him comfortable, even if he is a dwarf. She takes his reputation for scholarship more seriously than his reputation for debauchery, which also shows us something of her character. Tyrion, we learn, is so devoted to learning that all the way out in Winterfell people have heard he reads all night. It's not a theory, it's something the writers went out of their way to show us at the expense of any of a number of other things they could have shown us, and it's the basis for Catelyn and Tyrion's actions for the rest of the book/season.

 

His reputation as a scholar is probably more well-known to ladies than his other reputation, because that is how these things work. Catelyn has never met a whore, because ladies do not meet whores. Men do. So it's a man who jokes about Tyrion's reputation for drinking all night.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Hecate7

[SeanC]

 

It's not a minor detail. Catelyn Stark, who does not live in King's Landing, has heard, all the way out in Winterfell, that the Imp reads all night, and is laying in as many candles as possible. Dialogue is devoted to this, rather than to something else, like blankets or dogs or what room Cersei and Robert will be in. It is the sort of thing a writer does, early on, to establish who people are. Catelyn, we learn in one line, is a knowlegeable person, a conscientious hostess, and anxious to impress the Queen's brother and make him comfortable, even if he is a dwarf. She takes his reputation for scholarship more seriously than his reputation for debauchery, which also shows us something of her character. Tyrion, we learn, is so devoted to learning that all the way out in Winterfell people have heard he reads all night. It's not a theory, it's something the writers went out of their way to show us at the expense of any of a number of other things they could have shown us, and it's the basis for Catelyn and Tyrion's actions for the rest of the book/season.

Well, seeing as it's a show-only detail, the more likely explanation is that the writers didn't think about this in terms of how it would impact her later actions.  Tyrion is not a well-known scholar.  He has not published, he doesn't keep the company of other learned men, he's not a maester, etc. 

 

Beyond that, the basic premise of "he's too smart to do something that dumb" really doesn't hold, because smart people do stupid things all the time.

[Greta]

 

Arya as a possible Master of Whispers (if she survives,)

 

I've heard this bandied about and never really saw the logic.  Master of Whispers is basically Chief Spy/National Security Adviser/General Problem Fixer, all of which require broad perspective and subtlety of thought and action.  Arya has one stabbity solution to every problem. Donning different faces to "solve" every issue with a knife isn't a Master of Whispers, it's what a Master of Whispers hires to solve certain issues. I've seen no indication in her character or her story arc that even if she turned away from killing as a lifestyle, her character/personality could ever grow into that kind of subtlety. 

[Hecate7]

T

 

I've heard this bandied about and never really saw the logic.  Master of Whispers is basically Chief Spy/National Security Adviser/General Problem Fixer, all of which require broad perspective and subtlety of thought and action.  Arya has one stabbity solution to every problem. Donning different faces to "solve" every issue with a knife isn't a Master of Whispers, it's what a Master of Whispers hires to solve certain issues. I've seen no indication in her character or her story arc that even if she turned away from killing as a lifestyle, her character/personality could ever grow into that kind of subtlety. 

 

I'm inclined to agree here. Arya has one skillset. She is an assassin. That's what she does. Her straightforward values and emotional makeup makes her ideally suited for this work.

 

 

Tyrion is not a well-known scholar.  He has not published, he doesn't keep the company of other learned men, he's not a maester, etc.

 

He wanted to be a maester in the books, but his father refused to let him. It's made quite obvious that this is one of Tywin's many mistakes. His first conversations with Jon Snow are about books and why he reads so much. The first time we encounter him in the books is not the same as the scene with the prostitutes in the show, is it? We see him through Jon Snow's eyes, and Jon is unaware of Tyrion's reputation for debauchery. He is, however, aware of Tyrion as a bookworm, and that is what their conversations revolve around.

 

In the books it is made very clear from what Tyrion says and does, that he is a scholar and considered highly intelligent. He's been privately schooled and trained as a historian, tactician, and something of a philosopher. His gift to Joffrey is a book. His speeches to Jon Snow are about books and knowledge. We get just as many scenes of Tyrion thinking about things he's read about in books, as we get of him drinking or wenching. Catelyn's "show only" speech is there to replace the many, many musings on books inside Tyrion's head in the books.

 

In the books as on the show, Tyrion is reading a book, when he first banters with Jon Snow.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Hecate7

[SeanC]

T

 

 

I'm inclined to agree here. Arya has one skillset. She is an assassin. That's what she does. Her straightforward values and emotional makeup makes her ideally suited for this work.

 

 

He wanted to be a maester in the books, but his father refused to let him. It's made quite obvious that this is one of Tywin's many mistakes. His first conversations with Jon Snow are about books and why he reads so much. The first time we encounter him in the books is not the same as the scene with the prostitutes in the show, is it? We see him through Jon Snow's eyes, and Jon is unaware of Tyrion's reputation for debauchery. He is, however, aware of Tyrion as a bookworm, and that is what their conversations revolve around.

 

In the books it is made very clear from what Tyrion says and does, that he is a scholar and considered highly intelligent. He's been privately schooled and trained as a historian, tactician, and something of a philosopher. His gift to Joffrey is a book. His speeches to Jon Snow are about books and knowledge. We get just as many scenes of Tyrion thinking about things he's read about in books, as we get of him drinking or wenching. Catelyn's "show only" speech is there to replace the many, many musings on books inside Tyrion's head in the books.

 

In the books as on the show, Tyrion is reading a book, when he first banters with Jon Snow.

None of which has anything to do with Tyrion being a well-known scholar, because he isn't.

[BlackberryJam]

While Bran is ill and Ned and Cat are with him, in the books, Tyrion is up all night in the library, reading.  He also gives very clear instructions, twice to the Winterfell librarian guy, about the care of the book because of it's rarity.  Tyrion, from the beginning, is portrayed as a man of learning and of books.

 

It's after that when Tyrion goes out in the yard and Imp Slaps Joffrey.  

 

[Ailianna]

This conversation also overlooks the prejudice which Tyrion whines about as the bane of his life--that his dwarfism and generally unattractive appearance make many people not only believe him to be morally deformed as well, but that his physical deformities must also reflect mental defects. He gets by on the basis of having people underestimate him; his intellect as well as his physical abilities. The prejudices of his society mean that people who don't know him personally are unlikely to think of him as "brilliant" and we see that even many people who do know him don't think much of his mental abilities. Even from his own POV, I think "brilliant" is a vast overstatement. He's intelligent, but nothing special there either.

[SeanC]

While Bran is ill and Ned and Cat are with him, in the books, Tyrion is up all night in the library, reading.  He also gives very clear instructions, twice to the Winterfell librarian guy, about the care of the book because of it's rarity.  Tyrion, from the beginning, is portrayed as a man of learning and of books.

 

It's after that when Tyrion goes out in the yard and Imp Slaps Joffrey.  

No, I'm not disputing that he's well-read.  I'm saying that he's not famed for it.  Merely reading books doesn't get you continent-wide fame.

[Hecate7]

Not in the 21st century, no. But in medieval or Renaissance times, it's enough of a rarity that it excites remark. The three Lannister siblings are famous, Jaime for his swordsmanship, Cersei for her beauty, and Tyrion for his brains and his ugliness. By the end of the series, Tyrion has only his ever-increasing ugliness--all three Lannister siblings lose their defining qualities.

[SeanC]

Not in the 21st century, no. But in medieval or Renaissance times, it's enough of a rarity that it excites remark. The three Lannister siblings are famous, Jaime for his swordsmanship, Cersei for her beauty, and Tyrion for his brains and his ugliness. By the end of the series, Tyrion has only his ever-increasing ugliness--all three Lannister siblings lose their defining qualities.

No, it doesn't.  Can you point to anything in the text where Tyrion is indicated to be a famously learned man? (and merely evidence that he is learned is not evidence of a reputation for that)

[Skeeter22]

He wanted to be a maester in the books, but his father refused to let him. It's made quite obvious that this is one of Tywin's many mistakes.

It's been a while since I've read the books, but I thought it was Sam who wanted to be a maester and his father refused. Did GRRM really give both Tyrion and Sam the same backstory? I thought Tyrion wanted to go exploring with Gerion and Tywin refused.

I don't think Tyrion has any kind of positive reputation, certainly not for being a great intellectual. Even if he did, it hardly precludes him from making stupid mistakes. We know for a fact that he can make very foolish mistakes, and Cat has no reason to think he wasn't involved in her son's attempted murder. Tyrion does in fact know more about Bran's fall, and he would have covered for Jaime even if he'd been there to witness it first hand.

I've always found Tyrion's "I'd never bet against my brother" defense kind of stupid. Even knowing Jaime and Tyrion are close, why would someone assume that was true? A bet is hardly a betrayal.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Skeeter22

[Meredith Quill]

I think there is a difference between being 'famously learned' and whether it is well known amongst even only a few of the nobility about someone's intellectuality or not as the case may be. Nobles no doubt learn many things about other well known nobles (this still holds true today in our world); Tyrion, being related to the Queen, would be a talking point and many people would no doubt be aware of his hobbies (good & bad). It is fair to assume that Cat would likely know of his bookishness and also, merely by being in his sphere for X amount of days, she would ascertain that he is nobody's fool.

Whether she was right or wrong to do what she did, is another question which I leave to you all to contemplate on further.

 

ETA Please note that this is the House Stark Topic, please take any further debate solely on Tyrion and his reputation to the Tyrion Character Topic.

 

Thanks.

[Winnief]

And back to the Starks what does everyone think of the theory that "There must always be a Stark at Winterfell," may have referred to some ancient pact with the Children and Old Gods-and one that has now been broken?!?  (Which means we better hope Davos gets Rickon to Winterfell quickly!) Personally, I'm of the view that something about the Stark bloodline was always central to the coming Long Winter and AA…in fact that might be one reason Rhaegar chose Lyanna-perhaps he heard it foretold the "third" would have Stark blood.

 

Of course if the Stark bloodline *is* central to all this somehow that turns their personal family tragedy into one for all Seven Kingdoms-and is something to get a lot of people howling for the heads of their enemies.  (Not just readers either if word ever got out and people started spreading rumors.)

 

What do you think?

[Hecate7]

nm

Edited February 7, 2015 by Hecate7

[Hecate7]

And back to the Starks what does everyone think of the theory that "There must always be a Stark at Winterfell," may have referred to some ancient pact with the Children and Old Gods-and one that has now been broken?!?  (Which means we better hope Davos gets Rickon to Winterfell quickly!) Personally, I'm of the view that something about the Stark bloodline was always central to the coming Long Winter and AA…in fact that might be one reason Rhaegar chose Lyanna-perhaps he heard it foretold the "third" would have Stark blood.

 

Of course if the Stark bloodline *is* central to all this somehow that turns their personal family tragedy into one for all Seven Kingdoms-and is something to get a lot of people howling for the heads of their enemies.  (Not just readers either if word ever got out and people started spreading rumors.)

 

What do you think?

 

I have a theory, but it's crackpot. And sitting here thinking, it just got one level MORE crackpot....

I've always assumed that yes, there was some kind of ancient magical pact with the First Men or the Others that as long as a Stark held Winterfell, the dead in its vaults would stay dead, and the Others would not touch the place. And if that pact were broken, while there was magic in the world, then the dead would come out of their crypts and Winterfell would be overrun with wights, or the Others would come claim the place. Or maybe dragons would hatch out. Something supernatural. Or perhaps it would be the end of the Stark line, if there weren't one Stark in the place. Or all of the above.

 

Right now there is no Stark in Winterfell, and so the dead are probably walking down in those crypts. Or dragons are hatching or something really formidable and scary is taking place down by those hot springs. 

 

Here's the really, really crackpot part. Only two of the kids are actually said to look like Starks:  Arya, and Jon Snow, who is probably Ned Stark's nephew by Lyanna & Rhaegar. The rest look like Tullies. What if they don't look like Starks, because they are not Starks? What if Catelyn, embittered by the presence of Jon Snow, filled her house with bastard children, and only Arya is Ned's? It doesn't sound like something she'd actually do, but you never know.

Edited February 3, 2015 by Hecate7

[Constantinople]

Here's the really, really crackpot part. Only two of the kids are actually said to look like Starks:  Arya, and Jon Snow, who is probably Ned Stark's nephew by Lyanna & Rhaegar. The rest look like Tullies. What if they don't look like Starks, because they are not Starks? What if Catelyn, embittered by the presence of Jon Snow, filled her house with bastard children, and only Arya is Ned's? It doesn't sound like something she'd actually do, but you never know.

Wasn't she already pregnant with Robb when she found out about Jon Snow?

[Crazy8]

Yeah, she had to have been because Robb is older than Jon.

[SeanC]

And back to the Starks what does everyone think of the theory that "There must always be a Stark at Winterfell," may have referred to some ancient pact with the Children and Old Gods-and one that has now been broken?!?  (Which means we better hope Davos gets Rickon to Winterfell quickly!) Personally, I'm of the view that something about the Stark bloodline was always central to the coming Long Winter and AA…in fact that might be one reason Rhaegar chose Lyanna-perhaps he heard it foretold the "third" would have Stark blood.

 

Of course if the Stark bloodline *is* central to all this somehow that turns their personal family tragedy into one for all Seven Kingdoms-and is something to get a lot of people howling for the heads of their enemies.  (Not just readers either if word ever got out and people started spreading rumors.)

 

What do you think?

It's an interesting theory, though in practise the Others were already on the warpath at the start of the series, well before the Starks left Winterfell, so I'm not really clear on what difference it would have made.

 

Here's the really, really crackpot part. Only two of the kids are actually said to look like Starks:  Arya, and Jon Snow, who is probably Ned Stark's nephew by Lyanna & Rhaegar. The rest look like Tullies. What if they don't look like Starks, because they are not Starks? What if Catelyn, embittered by the presence of Jon Snow, filled her house with bastard children, and only Arya is Ned's? It doesn't sound like something she'd actually do, but you never know.

Catelyn's POV chapters are very clear that the kids are Ned's.

Edited February 4, 2015 by SeanC

[Skeeter22]

I've always been amused by Ned' s evidence that Cersei's kids aren't Robert's because they don't look like him considering all but one of the Stark kids look like Cat. I know GRRM needed to find some way to prove Cercei' s children's paternity, but it has always seemed a tad clumsy.

It's particularly funny when people push the theory that Sansa isn't a true Stark (and is somehow Littlefinger's daughter) because she doesn't look like Ned. They conveniently forget that Robb, Bran, and Rickon favor the Tullys as well.

[Winnief]

Kinda crackpot, but one reason I'd hope for Sansa/Jon or Rickon/Shireen would be because it would improve the odds that the kids would look like proper Starks.

 

Or for that matter, one of the chief arguments for Sansa getting Riverrun someday is that her very strong Tully resemblance would make it easier for the River lords and smallfolk to accept her.

[Hecate7]

Yeah, she had to have been because Robb is older than Jon.

 

True. Robb might have been Brandon's, but then he'd still be a Stark. Not sure how Rickon/Shireen would end up with any kids who look like Starks--neither one of them looks anything like a Stark.

 

I did warn you it was crackpot. It would be an interesting coincidence if Catelyn, that apparent paragon of virtue, had cuckolded her husband in much the same way that Cersei did hers. But there is a very important difference between Ned concluding that golden hair made Cersei's three children bastards, and anyone concluding that red hair made four out of five of Catelyn's bastards. The records showed that for perhaps a thousand years, the Baratheons had all had black hair. Of course having Shireen be blonde completely ruins that, and makes Stannis and Ned look like a couple of idiots.

 

I strongly suspect a Shireen/Jon Snow pairing might be endgame.Not sure why.

[Winnief]

Well actually Shireen in the books has the Baratheon black hair and blue eyes.  The eye color is different but traditionally Starks have dark hair. 

[fantique]

And back to the Starks what does everyone think of the theory that "There must always be a Stark at Winterfell," may have referred to some ancient pact with the Children and Old Gods-and one that has now been broken?!?  (Which means we better hope Davos gets Rickon to Winterfell quickly!) Personally, I'm of the view that something about the Stark bloodline was always central to the coming Long Winter and AA…

What do you think?

Reading the books and extra info, I definitely got more into the idea that there is something special about this supposedly unbroken line of Starks since Bran the Builder

. I have yet to get TWOIAF book but I have a feeling that they basically are the Westerosi family in power for longest time.

That is definitely something when we know that all the other Houses are not necessarily the ones who built the place where their seat is (the only other two would be the Arryns with the Eyrie and the Targaryens with Dragonstone) and have not been there nearly as long.

Something must be ensuring the continued Stark leadership in the North.

The Boltons and others seem to have attempted many times to take the North from the Starks but it does not seem to stick.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was something magical happening there. I definitely think there is more to it than just "Oh yeah, it's the North. They have little infighting just because you know...Winter is Coming"

 

Seeing as blood literally runs through the sap of the trees in the godswood, there is probably some strong blood magic happening.

Edited February 7, 2015 by SilverStormm
Tagged non show only info

[Maximum Taco]

Reading the books and extra info, I definitely got more into the idea that there is something special about this supposedly unbroken line of Starks since Bran the Builder. I have yet to get TWOIAF book but I have a feeling that they basically are the Westerosi family in power for longest time.

That is definitely something when we know that all the other Houses are not necessarily the ones who built the place where their seat is (the only other two would be the Arryns with the Eyrie and the Targaryens with Dragonstone) and have not been there nearly as long.

Something must be ensuring the continued Stark leadership in the North. The Boltons and others seem to have attempted many times to take the North from the Starks but it does not seem to stick. I wouldn't be surprised if there was something magical happening there. I definitely think there is more to it than just "Oh yeah, it's the North. They have little infighting just because you know...Winter is Coming"

 

Seeing as blood literally runs through the sap of the trees in the godswood, there is probably some strong blood magic happening.

 

The Starks are probably the oldest ruling family in Westeros, arguably the Lannisters could be just as old. Both trace their lineage from the First Men

in the Age of Heroes the Starks claiming descent from Brandon the Builder, the Lannisters from Lann the Clever (through the female line.)

 

As descendants of the First Men, it's easily possible the Starks could have had some kind of magical contract with the Children.

Especially if Brandon the Builder did get some of his building techniques from the Children as is sometimes suggested

Edited February 7, 2015 by SilverStormm
Tagged non show only info

[Hecate7]

Well actually Shireen in the books has the Baratheon black hair and blue eyes.  The eye color is different but traditionally Starks have dark hair. 

But Baratheons don't resemble Starks. Starks have lean, wolfen features, whereas Baratheons have a more broad, open countenance, with a square jawline and big broad shoulders. But they do have dark hair. *chortle*

[Avaleigh]

The Starks are probably the oldest ruling family in Westeros, arguably the Lannisters could be just as old. Both trace their lineage from the First Men

in the Age of Heroes the Starks claiming descent from Brandon the Builder, the Lannisters from Lann the Clever (through the female line.)

 

 

Is this info in the world book? (I haven't read it all TBH. I basically skipped around and read the stuff I was really interested in.)

Why was I under the impression that the Lannisters were Andals as opposed to First Men? Entirely possible that I just pulled that out of thin air. Maybe I'm thinking of the Arryns?

Edited February 7, 2015 by SilverStormm
Tagged non show only info

[Winnief]

Not sure whether the Lannister's are First Men or Andals but I *do* know that the Lannister's never built Casterly Rock the way the Starks did Winterfell.  Lann the Clever supposedly took it by some kind of trickery.  Which may have been a deliberate choice on Martin's part; that they were always ursurpers and foreshadowing their losing the Rock because it was never really 'theirs," the way Winterfell is the Starks.

 

God it's gonna be painful seeing Bolton banners in Winterfell next season.  I only hope we don't have to suffer it for very long. 

Edited February 7, 2015 by SilverStormm
Tagged no show only info

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

 

Please remember there should be no open air Book Talk in here;  any info from outside of the show must be spoiler tagged in all topics marked 'Spoilers'. These are not Book Talk topics.

 

Thank you.

[Maximum Taco]

Is this info in the world book? (I haven't read it all TBH. I basically skipped around and read the stuff I was really interested in.)

Why was I under the impression that the Lannisters were Andals as opposed to First Men? Entirely possible that I just pulled that out of thin air. Maybe I'm thinking of the Arryns?

 

It's in a few places.

 

Since this is a TV thread, I'll reference TV sources. The below is Bluray extra stuff I believe from the Season 1 Blurays.

 

 

Skip ahead to 0:50 if you tire of Charles Dance's silky smooth voice.

 

 

So as Lord Tywin tells us,

the Lannisters claim descent from the Andals and also Lann the Clever through the female line. Which means a female descendant of Lann married an Andal invader and the Andal (or his son) probably took the Lannister name and inherited the Lordship and Casterly Rock, (maybe by killing all the other Lannisters?) Anyway, since Lann lived during the Age of Heroes, and since he is referenced seperately from the Andals, it is likely that Lann was not an Andal and was one of the First Men. Regardless, it still means that House Lannister has its origins during the Age of Heroes, just like House Stark does.

Edited February 7, 2015 by Maximum Taco