Buffy Rewatch!

[Dianthus]

Eegah: We were reminded about the AR, and Spike was tortured by TFE and its minions. I never got the feeling we were being told to feel that he was the bestest ever. He really was "unique" for a time in s7, when Angelus was loose about L.A. on AtS. Spike himself doesn't think he's anything special.

I dunno. He's my favorite character, for a bunch of reasons. What can I say? You have a different opinion, and I'm cool with that.

I knew the writers were deliberately playing up the ambiguous nature of Spike's quest. I didn't know they told JM to deliberately play it like Spike wanted to return to Evil. If true, I think it sux. I certainly don't agree with every choice they made. They shouldn't have had to tell us he went to went to win back his soul after the fact. Keep it questionable up to a point, sure, but show us. It is a TV show.

 

Willowy: Kids don't naturally hate. That's learned. Good on you for raising her right.

[SomethingClever]

I'll be interested to see when the rewatch hits the later seasons. I'm of the opinion that Buffy has 2 legitimately great seasons, 2 really, really good seasons, 2 weaker seasons (that I still love large parts of) and season 1 (which doesn't really count), and those seasons are all pretty spread out (the order, by the way, is 2,5,3,6,4,7,1).

 

I do have to vehemently disagree with Sarah about Dru. I think she's the one example of Whedon's "crazy person" writing that actually works. To me, the insanity adds a legitimate menace to her character. She feels dangerous, like she could do anything. I love, love that character. She's delightfully unhinged. Also, I've always loved this exchange:

 

Dru: I'm naming all the stars.
Spike: You can't see the stars, love, that's the ceiling. Also, it's day.
Dru: I can see them. But I've named them all the same name, and there's terrible confusion

[Dianthus]

SomethingClever: I agree, re: Dru. I like her in the mine flashback from FFL

Dru: "The King of Cups expects a pic-nic, but today is not his birthday."

Darla: "Good point."

The King of Cups references the Tarot. Cups is a feminine suit. Since Spike is needling Angelus, I believe she is in fact referring to Spike with this comment. Spike is very much in touch with his Anima (feminine side).

Edited June 10, 2014 by Dianthus

[Sarah D. Bunting]

The Rewatch continues: Dru redemption, Buffy pouting, and Giles shares the MVP spot!

[marsman]

Hi Sarah! Just saying thanks for the Buffy Rewatch, enjoying it a lot :)

 

I'm watching the show for the 1st time and up to about the halfway point of Season 5. Can't wait to hear your thoughts on Season 4, which has been my favorite so far. I thought the transition to college was handled pretty well actually, although I'm still really bummed by the departure of Cordelia. Although Spike is a good "replacement", nobody is able to ground the Scooby gang with a cutting remark like Cordelia was...

Edited June 11, 2014 by marsman

[Wilowy]

The Rewatch continues: Dru redemption, Buffy pouting, and Giles shares the MVP spot!

 

"...but the guy remembers the Civil War. She can barely pass a test on it."

 

Loved this. SO glad you're writing these!

[taanja]

 

The stunt...singles, I guess I ought to call them It is what it is given that Gellar and Boreanaz couldn't do their own stunts (or not all of them), but when they don't even try to match the hair, or the fight double is, like, an African-American...I mean, if you don't look too closely, it's not that bothersome, but 1) HD now exists and 2) once you start looking, you really can't stop.

 

It's funny that you mention the stunt doubles and not matching the actors. I used to never notice. I took it at face value that the girl doing the flips/kicks/whatever was really SMG. I know! Right!

 

But the a friend and myself were doing one of our re-watches once upon a time and she slow-moed it down for me so I could see the hairy man arms of the stunt double. I was shocked I tell you! Shocked! and now I can't un-see!

 

Oh and I used to let my daughters watch BTVS (Age 7yrs and 8 yrs old respectively) at the time Buffy originally aired. They were NOT traumatized.  They watched every episode. Every season. In fact they are grown up productive members of society now. So no worries. No lasting damage.

[Sarah D. Bunting]

I never used to notice it either; I thought she did her own stunts, I thought everyone did. But in S4 when Smidge was really quite thin, it was so so noticeable, and I could never unsee it after that.

[Dianthus]

I could always tell when they were showing JM's stunt double from the back - his head is blockier in shape.

In his commentary for Primeval, JW mentions Buffy "strapping on her fightin' boobs" when they show SMG's stunt double in the fight against Adam.

[Wilowy]

The awesome swordfight with Angelus in Becoming: Part 2 was where I first noticed it. Baddy bad bad.

[year of the cat]

Since Sars brings up the lame-o factor of The First Evil, I have to point out that huge elements of the show are plot-derived from 80's era comic lore.  Things that just show up like The Dark Willow arc being OCC (is she grief stricken, or drugged, or power-mad? Who knows???) Groo the Wanderer, (which is a comic spoof of Conan the Barbarian)  and the First Evil is from the Hellraiser comic, which also inspired Spike's character.  Lots of Joss -riffs on basic element like the DC multi-verse (Doppelgangerland, the Wish, etc.) X-men powers like Gwen's character on Angel the Series.  So if something seems to be "..." , it's because Joss is Geekspeaking and the writers didn't quite transplant the idea gracefully.  Hope that's not too off-topic for the TV show.

[taanja]

 

it's because Joss is Geekspeaking and the writers didn't quite transplant the idea gracefully.  Hope that's not too off-topic for the TV show

 

 For whatever reason this made me laugh out loud. But I agree. Joss had some vision in his head but perhaps didn't articulate it well or the writers interpreted it incorrectly or whatever. But for the most part I think the whole team did a pretty good job. I was/am always entertained by BTVS.

 

It's also nice to know I am not the only one who thought all the actors did their own stunts. I try not to notice---but like I said ---sometimes I can't "un-see"

 

[Sarah D. Bunting]

In which I tink that Kendra gehl's accent is very strange, and other thoughts on Jenny, "Ripper," and Mr. Gordo.

[EricJ]

The problem with the "Ripper" part of Giles' origin is that it was just lifted wholesale from John Constantine, and they never really integrated the ideas into the Giles we know and love, instead splitting out all of Constantine's bastardry into Ethan. (I think they later did a much better variation on it with late-Angel era Wesley.)

 

Which isn't to say that I wouldn't love the hell out of a miniseries about Giles transformation from Punk Demonologist to tweedy Watcher.

[Wilowy]

"Cocknoying-B-Gone"???? 

 

Dead. I'm dead. xD

[DogMama]

I want to go home and watch my Season 2 DVD now...thanks for doing this, it's really fun!

[KirkB]

I've always figured it's never the actors if you can't see their face. So any stunt where it's not clearly the actor, it isn't. Because in movies, and the rare TV show, where the actor is willing, able and allowed to do some or all of their own stunts they make a point of showing their face so everyone will know it's them. I always knew SMG wasn't a martial artist, nor was Boreanz or anyone else, I just didn't make a point of looking close enough to see if the stuntperson was even the same gender as the person they were doubling.

 

As for Marsters and the end of six, I don't doubt he was told to act it one way while the intent was something else. Whedon has admitted that was done deliberately to fool the audience. He wanted people to assume Spike planned to get rid of the chip so he could go back to being bad, when in fact he was actually out to have his soul back so...umm, it actually doesn't make any sense. At all. How could a soulless Spike feel bad about trying to rape Buffy in the first place? Let alone be redemptive enough to want his soul back, and for what purpose? Spike helped the Scoobies so they wouldn't stake him, and later because he started developing feelings for Buffy. Fine. We've already acknowledge that some vampires can have emotions beyond "Eat!" and "Kill!" but they decided to make Spike an exception to all the rules, even over Angel, by the chip somehow suppressing more of the demon and bringing back more of the human. I don't know. As much as I did like Spike overall his story arc is pretty nonsensical.

[Dianthus]

KirkB:I look at it this way - Rules were made to be broken, and Spike is just the guy to break 'em. Otherwise, yeah. Everything had to line up just so for something like that to happen.

[Sarah D. Bunting]

Ted Talks: The middle of Season 2, and thoughts on the Buffy/Angel age difference.

[Wilowy]

Aww Sars, I loved Jenny and Giles! I always thought her mild sarcasm was just her way of flirting, especially since she'd grin and/or grab his arm as they walked off, with Giles usually one step behind on the joke. I thought they were cutie-pies, and I'd rank her death by twisted neck up there with Tara's for shock value. I did NOT expect her to die then, there, or like that. I ugly-cried when Giles found her... it was truly horrible for this fan.

[mstaken]

JENNY I thought my irritation with her might have mellowed, but her condescending attitude still bugs.

 

Woo hoo---table for two, please! I really, really tried to like her, but I found Jenny cold, haughty, arrogant, and just generally giving the impression that she thought she was doing Giles quite the favor by deigning to date him. I'm also not a big fan of teachers who seem disdainful of their students, unless it's played deliberately for laughs. 

[Chaos Theory]

JENNY I thought my irritation with her might have mellowed, but her condescending attitude still bugs.

 

 

I liked Jenny Calendar.    I actually kinda sorta shipped her and Giles there for awhile.  I thought they were sweet together.  

[Jazzy24]

I liked Jenny also and her and Giles were cute!!!

I didn't like how Buffy was so mad at her Jenny was in a hard place but she had a job to do I was 100% on her side even though I'm such a Buffy/AngelFan4Life

[DreamRose311]

Hi, just registered real quick to say that it's been fun reading this.

 

Just wanted to say a couple quick things on the Buffy Angel Age Difference part - I don't think Angel knows yet what would cause him to lose his soul.  So, I think that might answer the "why is Angel even putting himself in this position if he can't take it to the hoop?" question.  But also, "  you-are-my-density  " might be my favorite typo ever.

[Sarah D. Bunting]

Oh, that was on purpose. But thanks for the kind words!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

High five for the George McFly quote!

[Dianthus]

My problem with Jenny is that, ultimately, she was just too stupid to live. I'm sorry, but she knew Angelus was out there, and she knew he was cranky. So what does she do? She stays late in a public place with no weapons and tells him she's working on the spell to restore his soul! She doesn't even have a cross with her. Gah!

It didn't really register at the time (believe it or not I was into B/A then), but the flashback to the time when Angel first sees Buffy screams pedophile at me now. There he is, hair all long and greasy, watching the little HS chippy from a car with blacked-out windows. E-e-ew.

[Wilowy]

"chippy"?? Haven't heard that one in a 'coon's age. My grandmother used to say that in reference to slutty women. Is that your intended usage towards Buffy?

[Jazzy24]

My problem with Jenny is that, ultimately, she was just too stupid to live. I'm sorry, but she knew Angelus was out there, and she knew he was cranky. So what does she do? She stays late in a public place with no weapons and tells him she's working on the spell to restore his soul! She doesn't even have a cross with her. Gah!

It didn't really register at the time (believe it or not I was into B/A then), but the flashback to the time when Angel first sees Buffy screams pedophile at me now. There he is, hair all long and greasy, watching the little HS chippy from a car with blacked-out windows. E-e-ew.

Really? I never got that from that scene.

He wasn't looking at her with lust or creepy or anything besides just looking at her.

I thought he looked kinda shocked that this peppy, happy girl was about to carry the weight of the world. He did kinda look sad for her.

[taanja]

 

It didn't really register at the time (believe it or not I was into B/A then), but the flashback to the time when Angel first sees Buffy screams pedophile at me now. There he is, hair all long and greasy, watching the little HS chippy from a car with blacked-out windows. E-e-ew.

 

I never really liked the character Angel and I never bought into the Buffy/Angel twu lurve relationship. he was a creeper from the get-go IMO.

 

But in "School Hard" when Spike watches Buffy dancing with Xander and Willow at the Bronze all slo-mo (The first time he ever lays eyes on Buffy) I thought that was sexy -- not pedo.

 

So I may be coming from a place of personal prejudice. It's possible my love of Spike colors all my opinions  ;-)

 

[Sarah D. Bunting]

The latest Rewatch installment covers the rise of Angelus, werewolves, and Xander's turn as catnip to the (lunch) ladies.

[Dianthus]

@Willowy: no slut-shaming intended. Dunno; it just popped out.

 

@Jazzy24: Well, like I said, it didn't register that way for me on first viewing. It's more in retrospect.

 

@Taanja: JM has said that he was playing Spike's attraction to Buffy from the get-go. There's a far more paternalistic vibe with Angel than with Spike, IMO. It's just like Angel keeping himself separate from the group, whereas Spike was more social. Spike just seemed more "age appropriate" for her in spirit, if not chronologically.

[taanja]

 

JM has said that he was playing Spike's attraction to Buffy from the get-go

 

 I, for one, picked up on that right away. The way he would look at her ---watch her--talk to her --even when they were "mortal enemies" told me there as a lot more going on than mere hate.

 

Oh and let me just add;

 I have to disagree with you Sarah on the Bewitched, Bothered & Bewildered being in anyway good. ugh. Xander-centric eps never worked for me ---back in the day ---and now I just seem to have no patience to suffer through an entire episode at all.

 

But I will agree that Innocence is still great.

Edited July 2, 2014 by taanja

[Jazzy24]

The latest Rewatch installment covers the rise of Angelus, werewolves, and Xander's turn as catnip to the (lunch) ladies.

"Innocence" was heartbreaking.

SMG sold Buffy's pain and her love for Angel in this episode.

Buffy breaking down in her room crying her eyes out about Angel had me sobbing because SMG can cry. This Angelus arc was the one that did the most damage to Buffy even years later when it's brought up you can hear the pain behind it all.

I loved the rocket launcher because that was probably my all time second Buffy moment. I love her kick to Angelus' nuts because he deserved it.

I loved that talk Buffy and Giles had in the car after it all saying he wasn't going to reprimand her and all she was going to get was his support because she needed someone to tell her that.

And of course the ending had me tearing up again Buffy just letting her candle burn and saying she got older ~sniff~

[Wilowy]

Innocence is also Joss's favorite episode. 

[Jazzy24]

Oh and the Buffy/Angel theme song ~le sigh~

[Wilowy]

Close Your Eyes...

[VCRTracking]

Innocence is when the show hit a whole new level and where I became a fan for life. I was kind of a casual viewer before, not obsessed to catch every episode. But when this episode hit I was like "Oh. My. God." and was ALL in, from then on.

 

The scene with Willow and Oz in the van is one of my favorite scenes and one of Seth Green's best moments. I swear I think I heard every girl watching sigh all at once when he said "In my fantasy when I'm kissing you. You're kissing me. It's okay. I can wait."

 

Other classic moments: Xander's reaction to Larry coming out of the closet in "Phases" and the hallway scene in "Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered". Thank you ME for introducing me to "Got the Love" by the Average White Band:

 

 

I didn't realize until either reading the Buffy episode guide years ago that the first two seasons were shot on 16 mm film and it wasn't until the third season they switched to the higher quality 35 mm. It really does give a quality and feel to those early seasons that I can't quite describe.

Edited July 3, 2014 by VCRTracking

[Lurky McLurkerson]

I've been doing a modified BtVS rewatch, inspired by Sars, but not subjecting myself to the likes of "Inca Mummy Girl".  I watched "The Wish" last night.  (I didn't watch Buffy in first run based on how shitty the film version was and decided to give it a try when it hit Netflix.  I was wrong, and I missed out.)  It's really amazing how much better the earlier seasons of the show were (and how much I miss Oz, actual bad-ass Spike, and pre-graduation Giles).

 

I also think Boreanaz's Angelus is way more interesting to watch than "soulful", wounded puppy Angel.  I kind of loved what they did there in "The Wish" with making him the "puppy".

[Dianthus]

VCRTracking: music plays a big part in BtVS. Spike singing along with the Sex Pistols' version of My Way at the end of Lovers Walk is another example. Then you've got Giles and Oz in s4. Then there's Lorne and Pylea over on AtS. What makes Pylea a hell dimension? There's no music.

[Spartan Girl]

 

I loved that talk Buffy and Giles had in the car after it all saying he wasn't going to reprimand her and all she was going to get was his support because she needed someone to tell her that.

 

I loved that too.  Too bad a certain other character didn't follow that example -- especially in season 6.

[Primetimer]

The end of Season 2 holds up better than Sarah expected.

Read the story

[Spartan Girl]

Loved this:

 

Understand: he shouldn't have lied about/omitted the resouling spell, even if he thought it wouldn't work and therefore it wouldn't help Buffy to know. That was shitty. Also shitty: every time Xander has ever given Buffy grief about the others risking their lives to fight alongside her, because she generally doesn't ask them to do so (let's leave aside for now her tendency to take them for granted or order them around at times) and because Xander's the only one doing it to show off for Buffy, or to keep Scoobing in the hopes that proximity will breed romance, or a combination of those things.

 

 

That sums up my entire feelings about that whole mess.  But at least Xander finally knew what it felt like to be in that situation in season 7's "Selfless."

 

And yes, SMG sold the end of "Becoming Part II."  The way she stared in disbelief, the weight of what she did slowly sinking in, and then broke down into sobs...gah.  Girl broke my heart.

[Lisin]

Poor Max Perlich, I will never remember his actual name, I will always and forever call him Yabbo, no matter what.

[ferretrick]

A really bad part of me wants to make that awesome screencap of Wentworth Miller into a meme with captions about masturbating.

[DogMama]

Apparently, I'm the only one who finds Go Fish entertaining. I don't know why - it's gross, it's stupid, and yet... This is a really fun project, and I'm happy to revisit most of Buffy. Season 3, here we come!!

[Sarah D. Bunting]

"Homecoming," "Band Candy," and "Revelations" get the Rewatch treatment; I am disappoint.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎16‎/‎05‎/‎2014 at 8:38 PM, Wilowy said:

Welcome to the Hellmouth - again! 

Always welcome!

On ‎17‎/‎05‎/‎2014 at 4:05 AM, Sarah D. Bunting said:

Thanks for coordinating, Willowy, Lisin, and other mods!

 

I'm pleased to report I got 11 minutes into "The Harvest" before telling Xander to shut it.

At what point exactly?

On ‎19‎/‎05‎/‎2014 at 5:38 PM, mstaken said:

I actually kind of adore Teacher's Pet, though I can't begin to justify why. Then again, I'm also the weirdo who's forced to name Go Fish as the BtVS episode I've watched more often than any other :)

 

I'm so excited to read Sara's write ups and everyone's thoughts! 

I like Go Fish, it's a nice twist, a real role reversal and some great humour with Xander. 

On ‎20‎/‎05‎/‎2014 at 4:09 AM, Valny said:

It is for me! :) Best part of the ep.   But also Buffy breaking that douche Cameron's nose in the car scene was pretty great. Otherwise, it ranks low on my episode rankings, but definitely not the worst(I'm looking at you most of S7)

 

 

 

Wow, can't say I've ever heard anyone claim that before @mistaken!

Not even for Jonathon? 

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎20‎/‎05‎/‎2014 at 3:00 PM, Mya Stone said:

Teacher's Pet has nothing on I Robot, You Jane. 
 

Yay for Buffy rewatch! I've been itching to go back to Sunnydale for awhile. 

Did we ever leave?

On ‎22‎/‎05‎/‎2014 at 3:47 AM, Dianthus said:

Oh man! I was just part of a BtVS rewatch on another site that recently wrapped. I prob'ly won't be rewatching the eps, but I've seen them all multiple times, and discussed them with others who've also seen them multiple times. Wonder how many fights I'll get into this time? Spike's my favorite character, so I see things a little differently.

Certainly by the end of s6 there'd be blood on the boards. 

On ‎23‎/‎05‎/‎2014 at 7:22 PM, tveyeonyou said:

I got your back Dianthus, I'm on Team Spike too, in fact Season 6 is my favorite Season (ducks to avoid flying objects).

Seriously looking forward to this rewatch. There's nothing better than a Buffy rewatch to make life better :)

There is no team Spike, he's a lone wolf, remember? 

On ‎25‎/‎05‎/‎2014 at 5:03 AM, Eegah said:

Showing up a little late, but I'm looking forward to this. Seasons 1-5 I adored and seasons 6 and 7 I endured, and I never get tired of spewing my unwanted opinions about them. Also, I highly recommend Mark Oshiro's articles about the show if you haven't seen them already; I'm a huge fan and even when we disagree he always has something interesting to say.

 

http://markwatches.net/reviews/category/past-shows/buffy-the-vampire-slayer/

7 is actually one of my favourites. 

But whatever happened to Mr Garabaldi?

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎29‎/‎05‎/‎2014 at 8:50 PM, taanja said:

Oh and season 6? Buffy and Spike? need I say more??? (I choose to forget the "almost rape" ep. I watched it once and once only.

I watch it but I look away. 

On ‎30‎/‎05‎/‎2014 at 3:05 AM, Carrie Ann said:

I actually hate a lot of things about Spike and Spuffy in S6, and of course I hate the attempted rape. But I appreciate it at the same time, because the show never downplays it--everyone acknowledges it for what it was. In the decade-plus since this aired, I have seen so many problematic depictions of rape on TV with NO acknowledgment or consequences for the rapist, it makes BtVS seem like a model for how to handle it. Spike is horrified enough to take massive steps to change his very nature, and once he has, he spends the final season attempting to atone--most crucially, he makes those changes without ever expecting Buffy to accept him again. He does it because it's the right thing to do, not to get the girl back. His redemption arc in S7 is much more satisfying than I remembered it.

I can only think of one example, Adam Carrington in Dynasty? In fairness Spike has that supernatural get out clause which other characters lack unless they've been drugged.