Characters and Relationships in PLL: You Need to Take a Psychological Selfie Right Now.

[Froippi]

36 minutes ago, SadieT said:

It's not really a matter of opinion though, there's laws and every state has an age of consent and different laws. Even in states where the age of consent is 16, there's often stipulations about people in positions of power like teachers so Ezra/Aria is statutory rape, although the writers tried to excuse it by saying Ezra was temporarily not teaching when they first slept together. Alison was only 15 when she disappeared so any older guy she slept with would also be guilty of statutory rape, especially Wilden who was like a 30 year old cop (although he's never been confirmed as beach hottie). Byron should have lost his job, but his affair with his student wasn't illegal because she was an adult unlike Aria with Ezra. 

i know the law changes for each state but some just don't agree with the statutory rape in general is what i meant and yes i do agree with him being a teacher is a big issue and yes i know Byron would not have gone to jail he would of just lost his job more of point if the show was going to show either one losing their job then both of them would of had to lost their jobs they did neither but honestly who in Rosewood ever goes to jail though

Edited April 24, 2017 by Froippi

[ElectricBoogaloo]

4 hours ago, Froippi said:

i know the law changes for each state but some just don't agree with the statutory rape in general is what i meant and yes i do agree with him being a teacher is a big issue and yes i know Byron would not have gone to jail he would of just lost his job more of point if the show was going to show either one losing their job then both of them would of had to lost their jobs they did neither but honestly who in Rosewood ever goes to jail though

It doesn't matter if people "agree" with the statutory rape laws because they are still laws. That's like saying I don't agree that murder is a crime so I should be allowed to kill whoever I want without any penalty. Ezra being Aria's teacher isn't just "a big issue." It puts him in a direct position of authority which is just ONE of the things that makes him having sex with her illegal in the state of Pennsylvania.

Quote

Age and experience create a power imbalance that makes it impossible for the younger person to freely give consent. In Pennsylvania, children less than 13 years of age cannot grant consent to sexual activity. Teens between the ages of 13 and 15 can consent to sexual activity with peers within a four-year age range. People aged 16 and older can legally consent to sexual activity with anyone they choose, as long as the other person does not have authority over them as defined in Pennsylvania’s institutional sexual assault statute.

From wikipedia:

Quote

The age of consent in Pennsylvania is 16 years of age for sexual consent. The age of consent was previously 18 but it was lowered to 16 in 1995.

There is also a corruption of minors statute against adults corrupting the morals of minors under 18 years of age.  However, the corruption of minors statute only applies to perpetrators 18 years of age and older, so it is always legal for minors 16-17 to have sex with each other but not always with a partner 18 or older. Pennsylvania prosecutors use this law against adults who have consensual intercourse with 16- and 17-year-olds, and it would count as a misdemeanor offense. In 2005 JoAnne Epps, a former prosecutor and Temple University Beasley School of Law dean of academic affairs, stated that the corruption of minors charge is considered to be a separate crime from that of statutory rape; she stated that the consideration of whether a minor is consenting to sexual activity is a separate issue from whether someone is corrupting the minor's morals.

Teenagers aged 13, 14 and 15 may or may not be able to legally engage in sexual activity with partners who are less than 4 years older. Such partners could not be prosecuted under statutory rape laws, but may be liable for other offenses, even when the sexual activity is consensual.

In December 2011 the Pennsylvania Legislature passed an amendment stating that an employee of a school who engages in sexual relations with any student or athletic player under the age of 18 may receive a third-degree felony charge. In 2014 Governor of Pennsylvania Tom Corbett signed into law an amendment making this law apply to athletic coaches who work outside of an educational setting. Historically Pennsylvania prosecutors were only allowed to issue misdemeanor charges such as corruption of minors against teachers and coaches who had sex with 16 and 17-year-old students. In addition to the corruption of minors charge, Pennsylvania prosecutors have also brought child endangerment charges against schoolteachers who had sex with 16 and 17-year-old students.

This means that if Aria had sex with Ezra while she was still 15, it was illegal because he was clearly more than four years older he would be charged with statutory sexual assault, aggravated indecent assault, and involuntary deviate sexual intercourse. When she had sex with him when she was 16-17, it was STILL illegal because he was an employee of the school. This would result in a third degree felony charge. In addition, because she was 16-17 and he was over 18, he would be charged with involuntary deviate sexual intercourse, unlawful contact with a minor, and corruption of a minor. This isn't a difference of opinion. It's the law in the state of Pennsylvania.

Pennsylvania statues:

Quote

§ 3122.1. Statutory sexual assault.

Except as provided in section 3121 (relating to rape), a person commits a felony of the second degree when that person engages in sexual intercourse with a complainant under the age of 16 years and that person is four or more years older than the complainant and the complainant and the person are not married to each other.

§ 3125 Aggravated indecent assault

(7) the complainant is less than 13 years of age; or (8) the complainant is less than 16 years of age and the person is four or more years older than the complainant and the complainant and the person are not married to each other. (b) Aggravated indecent assault of a child.--A person commits aggravated indecent assault of a child when the person violates subsection (a)(1), (2), (3), (4), (5) or (6) and the complainant is less than 13 years of age.

§ 3123 Involuntary deviate sexual intercourse

(7) who is less than 16 years of age and the person is four or more years older than the complainant and the complainant and person are not married to each other.

When the alleged victim is 16 or older and less than 18 years of age, and the alleged offender is over the age of 18, the Commonwealth may charge the offense of corruption of minors or unlawful contact with a minor, even if the activity was consensual:

§ 6301 Corruption of minors.

(a) Offense defined.-- (1) Whoever, being of the age of 18 years and upwards, by any act corrupts or tends to corrupt the morals of any minor less than 18 years of age, or who aids, abets, entices or encourages any such minor in the commission of any crime, or who knowingly assists or encourages such minor in violating his or her parole or any order of court, commits a misdemeanor of the first degree.

The crime of corruption of minors is usually a crime that accompanies another "more serious" crime such as statutory rape or involuntary deviate sexual intercourse or accompanies some drug or alcohol use, possession or sale. Tending to corrupt like contributing to delinquency is a broad term involving conduct toward a child in an unlimited variety of ways which tends to produce or to encourage or to continue conduct of the child which would amount to delinquent conduct."

The question of whether consensual intercourse with a minor 16 years or older tends to corrupt the morals of that minor is a jury question to be decided by the "common sense of the community."

[Froippi]

8 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

It doesn't matter if people "agree" with the statutory rape laws because they are still laws. That's like saying I don't agree that murder is a crime so I should be allowed to kill whoever I want without any penalty. Ezra being Aria's teacher isn't just "a big issue." It puts him in a direct position of authority which is just ONE of the things that makes him having sex with her illegal in the state of Pennsylvania.

From wikipedia:

This means that if Aria had sex with Ezra while she was still 15, it was illegal because he was clearly more than four years older he would be charged with statutory sexual assault, aggravated indecent assault, and involuntary deviate sexual intercourse. When she had sex with him when she was 16-17, it was STILL illegal because he was an employee of the school. This would result in a third degree felony charge. In addition, because she was 16-17 and he was over 18, he would be charged with involuntary deviate sexual intercourse, unlawful contact with a minor, and corruption of a minor. This isn't a difference of opinion. It's the law in the state of Pennsylvania.

Pennsylvania statues:

comparing those two crimes is just silly cause they are no where near the same one carries a life sentence the other is normally about 20+ years also we have clarify the real issue was he was Teacher but the show never really made him pay any consequences for his crime anyways and to Be honest all these Liars and BFs could be in jail also in Rosewood think they all have done something illegal accpet maybe Alison and Spencer!

Edited April 24, 2017 by Froippi

[ElectricBoogaloo]

13 hours ago, Froippi said:

comparing those two crimes is just silly cause they are no where near the same one carries a life sentence the other is normally about 20+ years also we have clarify the real issue was he was Teacher but the show never really made him pay any consequences for his crime anyways and to Be honest all these Liars and BFs could be in jail also in Rosewood think they all have done something illegal accpet maybe Alison and Spencer!

No, it's not silly. You said earlier that if you disagree with a law, then it's okay to disregard it ("your always going to have different opinions on statutory rape" and "my thing has always been if he/she is 16+ the rule goes out the window but i know some people feel differently"). Your feelings or opinion have no bearing on the actual law. Regardless of how major or minor the law is, you are still breaking the law whether you agree or disagree with the actual law. The law doesn't "go out the window" just because you disagree with it. And for the record, murder (from my example above) is a felony charge as is statutory sexual assault - so in the eyes of the law, they are more comparable than you seem to think. But if you want to say that statutory rape is a totally minor infraction, then I'll give you different examples: if you disagree with the law about jaywalking, you're still breaking the law when you jaywalk. If you think smoking on an airplane is no big deal, it's still illegal if you do it. If you think litter laws are stupid, you are still breaking the law if you drop your trash and don't pick it up. The point is that it makes no difference what the actual law is. Saying you disagree with it doesn't suddenly make doing it legal.

[Froippi]

actually it is silly comparing the two but your going to have your opinions i will have my own opinions and basically what your is saying is Aria should not have forgiven him and just thrown him to the wolfs

Edited April 25, 2017 by Froippi

[marshmallows]

I have always thought it was a bit ridiculous that someone could be charged for having sex with someone who clearly consented, especially if said person is 16 and older. I'm not sure what the difference is in having a 16/17 year old consent to sex with someone who is let's say 24 than an 18 year old consent to sex with someone who is 25 or even 50, because since you are 18 now you can sleep with whoever you want even if he/she is old enough to be your grandparent. It's quite ridiculous. However, it does not change the laws so Ezra is clearly breaking the law by sleeping with what Pennsylvania considers a minor. The trivial age thing put aside, the teacher thing is more of an issue, because it could be construed as power or how someone has to use their sexuality to get a grade they did or did not deserve.  However, on screen I think they portrayed it all decently well until they decided to make it to where Ezra knew her age and who she was all along. Now, that my friend is seriously creepy.  Before that at least the show had it going for them that Ezra was under the impression Aria was a student in college, which was perfectly legal, then later realizes she is actually a high school student. But, no MK had to make this relationship disgusting just so she could throw us off on who A was. He should have just been A then all this argument over pedophile Ezra could be put to rest.

[mac123x]

3 hours ago, marshmallows said:

until they decided to make it to where Ezra knew her age and who she was all along. Now, that my friend is seriously creepy.

I rewatched the pilot this weekend, and knowing that now made any of the Aria / Ezra scenes really hard to sit through.  I yelled "you creepy perv" at the screen so much that my computer is probably developing a complex.

[Froippi]

as i always said though if they were going to thrown Ezra in jail for sleeping with his student then Byron had to be fired for sleeping with his student they did not show either of those so the show is what it is when it comes to that honestly i would not let anyone under 18 watch this show because the fact of what it shows personally i've always felt if she forgave him for the whole season 4 thing then i was cool with that but to be honest i had a hard time buying any of that stuff in season 4 Ezra did just did not add up to me i just found it odd how he called things off with Alison once he found out her age

Edited April 25, 2017 by Froippi

[Lady Calypso]

From 7x17 thread:

10 minutes ago, marinaalexis said:

I remember her apologizing very sincerely at least two separate times for that incident. And keep in mind that when people are going through psychotic breaks, they are acting completely outside of their rational mind. I hate how Mona's still held accountable for her actions of the first two seasons while characters like Alison, Toby, and Ezra have all gotten passes. The double standards on this show are incredible.

I agree with this. Mona is not innocent by any means, and she did a lot of really messed up stuff that she should have definitely been held accountable for from Hanna for a lot longer than she did, but Mona has never gotten a pass on those actions because they kept her a shady character throughout the series. But Alison and Ezra get passes on their behaviour because of ship reasons, but don't forget that Cece got a hard pass on her actions. People like Lucas and Mona never get those passes. Lucas was still called out for him scaring Hanna way back in the early seasons, while Mona was still A. 

The show's double standards really are incredible, though. King isn't afraid to show where her loyalties lie with her characters. 

[dkb]

Bringing something over from the Death Do Us Part topic:

There were so many good theories and plots they could of went down but this is what they decided on. But I still love it, because sometimes I see the awesomeness of all the four girls and ♥♥♥♥♥ back to the good old days, when their friendship through the shit that was going down was wonderful to see. Forever pissed that they ruined Spanna! 

 

This got me thinking of, although I always bring up Spanna, how all the main relationships between the four girls has really suffered for the last couple of seasons. I used to love them interacting and catching each other up on what they discovered or what A put them through, I could feel the bond between all of them and also the individual bonds and relationships they had with each other. Now, everything is generic and the same no matter which of them is in the scene together, you could swap any of the girls out with another and it would be the same. 

I haven't done a rewatch of the series but I can't put my finger on why this is? Maybe because Allison showing up effected the dynamics? Even though Allison was a non-entity since she came back. 

I'm of the belief that yes Allison is the reason they became friends but through the first season (and flashbacks) I could see them becoming friends outside of Allison (since she was 'dead') and yes some of that was the A stuff but the actresses made me feel like despite that shared trauma they had become actual friends. The past few seasons, even before time jump, I feel like the writers haven't really focused on the friendships like they used to and only the chemistry they have with each other was because of the actresses.

 

Which might make sense all of them are acting like pod people.  

 

I dislike Spaleb soo much, but there was a way to do that without ruining Spanna but only if Spaleb was actually going to be endgame instead of some plot point for unnecessary drama. Like I get it people grow apart and although I loved Haleb, I could get over it if it was written better (like personally I would not be cool with a best friend dating such an important ex but this is tv gotta let things happen). Maybe Hanna and Caleb grew apart and broke up mutually, then after like a year or something Caleb and Spencer meet and stuff happens and their relationship grows organically (I think Spencer would let Hanna know, because they are friends and Hanna would be fine with it because she doesn't love Caleb that way anymore and is happy with her life and work and maybe Jordan is there too , if necessary), then when they come back to Rosewood after 5 years  Spaleb is an already established thing and Hanna is with whoever else and there is no drama there. And then there are NO backsies to way things were for Haleb and Spoby. 

 

Like it blows my mind that they thought doing Spaleb and then reverting back to Haleb would be a-ok for fans of this show.  It ruined 3 people, 2 of them being half the foundation of the show from the beginning. Dumbest plot point ever! Now every scene with Caleb and Spencer or even Spencer and Hanna has this underlying tension and weirdness that to me will never go away even though their all besties again. Were they trying to piss of as many sections of the fanbase as possible this last season as a final FU to us?

[Lady Calypso]

From the 7x20 finale thread:

1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said:

A lot of people never forgave Paige for the drowning thing.  They can forgive Ali for anything but a single act of anger has Paige cast as villian for eternity.   Honestly I thought Paige had some pretty awesome character growth through the show.   It was organic so much more organic then Alison.

True. That's the main argument I see when people discuss how Paige/Emily aren't good for each other. Many can't seem to get over Paige trying to drown Emily. It's bad, don't get me wrong, but that was the only remotely bad thing she did on the show. Meanwhile, Alison's forgiven for using Emily's sexuality for her own purposes, blackmailing Paige, humiliating Hanna several times, and bullying others at school and elsewhere. I liked Paige a lot, I liked her with Emily, and I liked the character growth she was allowed to have. I thought she worked out as a girlfriend for Emily. I do feel like the show used her as a red herring a lot of the time, much like they used Melissa and Mona. So, in that sense, I can see why people were turned off by Paige. I just think focusing on the drowning episode, which was one of the first episodes that Paige appeared in, is not strong enough as a reason when we have Alison's history to compare with. In Paige's case, she was a scared closeted teenager who was afraid of her own feelings toward Emily, someone who had recently come out and was more comfortable with her sexuality, in her perspective.

[marinaalexis]

10 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Many can't seem to get over Paige trying to drown Emily. It's bad, don't get me wrong, but that was the only remotely bad thing she did on the show. Meanwhile, Alison's forgiven for using Emily's sexuality for her own purposes, blackmailing Paige, humiliating Hanna several times, and bullying others at school and elsewhere.

The hypocrisy demonstrated by a lot of fans regarding Paige/Alison has always astounded me. One of the biggest arguments for Ali is that she did the awful things she did when she was a teenager, that she's grown and changed since then, and that we shouldn't still hold her accountable for what she did all the way back when she was fifteen years old. And yet a lot of these same people are quick to turn around and insist that Paige should essentially be condemned to hell for pushing Emily's head underwater that one time in the first season. Why can Ali be redeemed and forgiven for what she did but Paige can't? 

It's okay to just flat out not like Paige's character. You (general) don't have to come up with illogical reasons to justify that hate, and I feel like the focus on the "drowning" is trying to do just that.

[Chaos Theory]

Pilotitis.  A character did this horrible thing virtually in the pilot and never went to prison for it or didn't get dragged down main square  or called out and even though by the finale they are virtually mother Teresa or pay for it in any way.  I  still hate them because they did that horrible thing in the pilot (I call it the Skyler White Effect). There are probably other better names for it though because Skyler White was no mother Teresa but I like the imagery.  And neither was Paige she got angry and often jelouse and even occasionally violent but her character arc was loads of organic and her coming out scene was beautiful to watch and one of the most beautifully written things the show as done. 

Edited July 6, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[Kate213]

6 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

her character arc was loads of organic and her coming out scene was beautiful to watch and one of the most beautifully written things the show as done. 

I felt that Paige was one of the few true-to-life characters on PLL. She reacted to things as a normal teenager would, but was also allowed to grow up and become more reasonable and level-headed.  As far as the "drowning," (which was confirmed by the cast and writers as a prank to scare Emily rather than Paige actually trying to harm her),  Paige apologized on-screen immediately after it happened and we saw Emily forgive her.  That should have been the end of it but instead Paige (and unfortunately Lindsay Shaw, the actress who played her) was continually criticized over the years.

Without intense shipper pressure and the Alison/Emily/Emily's eggs/rape storyline, Paige/Emily would have been the more realistic endgame.  The show demonstrated over and over again that Paige and Emily loved each other and were good together.  If however, instead of Emily/Alison's pregnancy thrown together in the last few episodes, we actually got to see Emily struggle between her first love and her most significant relationship, that could have been great too.  

Edited July 6, 2017 by Kate213

[Froippi]

You know I never made that big of a issue about it she was just upset that Emily or someone she knew snitched her out and was making a point never was trying to hurt her making a point about it 

[SadieT]

19 hours ago, AftermathTV said:

Paige was not too intense, she just had realistic problems she was grappling with.

One of the few girls on this show to have complexity. So of course most of the fandom hissed at that.

In my opinion she was, but it's just that, an opinion. 

I'd say Mona was one of the most complex characters on the show and she was a fan-favorite even though she did a lot of horrible things to the girls, so I don't think the fandom hisses at complexity. I think some characters are just better liked than others for various reasons.  

 

13 hours ago, marinaalexis said:

The hypocrisy demonstrated by a lot of fans regarding Paige/Alison has always astounded me. One of the biggest arguments for Ali is that she did the awful things she did when she was a teenager, that she's grown and changed since then, and that we shouldn't still hold her accountable for what she did all the way back when she was fifteen years old. And yet a lot of these same people are quick to turn around and insist that Paige should essentially be condemned to hell for pushing Emily's head underwater that one time in the first season. Why can Ali be redeemed and forgiven for what she did but Paige can't? 

It's okay to just flat out not like Paige's character. You (general) don't have to come up with illogical reasons to justify that hate, and I feel like the focus on the "drowning" is trying to do just that.

The hypocrisy surrounding Alison/Paige runs both ways though. Paige fans can't let go of the horrible things Ali did as a kid, and Alison fans remain stuck on the drowning incident. Both characters were dealing with difficult things in their lives that caused them to act out but they both grew over time and changed for the better (and they probably have more in common than their fans would like to admit). Paige was a bully in her own right with a history of aggressive behavior that caused her to lash out and do things like hold Emily's head under the water to intimidate her. But she apologized and once she accepted herself, she started to grow as a person and I have no problem acknowledging that she was a mostly mature, well-rounded, decent human being at the end of the series...I just never liked her. And of course no one disputes the fact that Ali was a horrible bully when she was younger, but she eventually starts to understand where her behavior was coming from and the impact it had on people and is eventually able to turn her life around and become a better person too. 

And my issue with Paige was never the drowning or even her aggressive behavior because I understood where that was coming from and do believe people can change, especially people as young as the girls were at the start of the series, a concept I also apply to Alison who was dealing with some serious personal issues of her own. Paige's personality just never clicked for me. There were things about her that I found grating and she was never a character I enjoyed watching or felt connected to. But I've disliked plenty of characters on this show so it's not just Paige, there's just a lot of irritating people in Rosewood. 

[AftermathTV]

Paige was like the running audience commentary, definitely amusing and relatable. Crappy parents and being pushed to suicide, nothing she did ever came close to being someone with a bullying past. For you to equate a bitch who blinds(she never did visit Jenna on her "apology tour", did she?) and blackmails to a one-time head dunk.....you're missing the point and I think you need to rewatch some Paige scenes. There is no hypocrisy. There's just an objective answer. Only one side in the Paige/Ali war is the logical and responsible one to stand by. Please don't fence-sit.

Mona sort of became a parody of herself. Marlene liked going back to the well of her Mary Sue talents, and we mostly liked Mona because we hated how badly the Liars regressed. I'd say a lot of Mona became a gimmick that was exploited, but despite that she was able to stay out of the love interest orbit and give exposition or plot advancement. Given how her character ended in the finale, I wouldn't say it was a complex arc of personal growth. It was more of just liking how goofy and ridiculously Mona embraced the game up next to a bunch of sad sack kill-joy whiny victims. We liked PLL more when it didn't take itself seriously.

[SadieT]

In season 1, Spencer says Paige has been bullying people since JV and that they named a field hockey penalty after her. I never said she was on the same level as Alison, just that she was a bully in her own right. But you keep stating your opinion as fact and not accounting for your own bias, so I don’t really see this conversation going anywhere, but I’m glad you found a character you relate to and feel so strongly about. 

[Chinspinner]

I don't think there was a complex character in the show, they were all mannequins. But there was only one character in the  entire show that actually had an arc, namely Paige, which is why it was the only character I ever had any interest in.  It is fitting that Marlene and the writers could not recognise this and sold her short as a character; then again, perhaps escaping the rest of the bland ensemble was a fitting ending?

Edited July 7, 2017 by Chinspinner

[Froippi]

Well if you really want to bring hypocrisy into this we could say the same people who forgive Alison won't forgive Ezra for the predator stuff he did Even though Aria and Ezra relationship looked better after the time jump

[Jack Shaftoe]

Quote

In season 1, Spencer says Paige has been bullying people since JV and that they named a field hockey penalty after her.

Spencer also thinks half of Rosewood is A, doesn't make it true. :) Kidding aside, we never saw Paige behave like a bully apart from her very first episode and even in it, the "drowning" incident (quotation marks since drowning implies an attempt to murder which was most certainly not what happened in that scene) was nowhere near as bad as Alison's worst actions. We never saw Paige relish the suffering she causes, unlike Alison or Mona. Liking those two more than her is perfectly fine and no one should have to explain why they happen they like certain characters but not others. However, I don't think that is hypocritical to think Alison was a Karma Houdini and Paige was not because the stuff Alison did was orders of magnitude worse. Unless Paige blinded people for the lulz offscreen, that is.

Speaking of offscreen, that's where most of Alison's transformation happened, which to me at least made it all ring hollow. Of course, you can say much the same about Paige but her villainy was nowhere near the cartoonish levels of Alison, so it was a lot easier to accept that she could manage to exorcise her demons. Alison was an enigma until about season 5B, then she became a victim and still mostly an enigma without much in the way of actual characterization, IMO. It wasn't an organic growth, it was virtually replacing a character with a completely different one who had a completely different role. Why did she become a teacher? Who knows. How does she feel about the endless series of secret evil relatives? We know she (foolishly as it turned out) liked Charlotte but beyond that? What are her relations with Jason and Kenneth after the time-jump? Who knows. Does she really want to be a mother at such an early age or she is doing it mostly for Emily's sake? Your guess is as good as mine. Does she feel guilty about Jenna, Toby and other people whose lives she seriously harmed? Sort of, maybe, sometimes... well, we aren't too sure. And so on. I am biased, I admit it but honestly, "resurrecting" Alison was a mistake because the show put her in limbo. She was never really the fifth Liar but she wasn't an antagonist either, she was an odd sort of supporting character who sometimes played a leading role then disappeared inexplicably for an episode or two or from plotlines which seemed to concern her very much.

Quote

I'd say a lot of Mona became a gimmick that was exploited, but despite that she was able to stay out of the love interest orbit and give exposition or plot advancement. Given how her character ended in the finale, I wouldn't say it was a complex arc of personal growth.

Ever since the season 2 finale Mona has been 98% plot device and 2% actual character. She was so brilliant supposedly - yet was in the dark about Charlotte and Alex almost as much as the Liars were - despite agreeing to help the villains from time to time. Her mental issues came and go depending on plot necessity. She liked or hated the Liars depending on the episode and (I am guessing here) the phases of the moon.

Quote

I don't think there was a complex character in the show, they were all mannequins.

I think the Liars were really well fleshed out, complex character early on and then became caricatures of themselves. The show became totally plot-driven and the main factor that drove the plot was "what stupid thing can the Liars do today", this doesn't exactly help characterization.

Edited July 7, 2017 by Jack Shaftoe

[Mabinogia]

3 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

I think the Liars were really well fleshed out, complex character early on and then became caricatures of themselves.

And that is the saddest thing about this show. The characters were strong, the relationship between the four girls was amazing. It was deep and rich and complex. As the seasons went on the became shippier and shippier and seemed to be pandering more and more. Ezra being A not sticking is a perfect example. He was the perfect A. It made sense that he would be A given his history of stalking and being a general creeper. It was a great twist, it fit with pretty much all we knew up till then. But it meant Aria didn't have her OTL so it couldn't last. Same with Toby. I always thought of all the possible A's Toby had the best reason. They sent him to freaking Juvy. If anyone should want revenge on these girls it's him. But the writers/creators liked the actor so nope, it's not Toby. And that's when the show went off the rails. They just couldn't let a character they personally enjoyed actually be the Big Bad. If that person was in a relationship then it became a joke because the audience knew that Caleb, Ezra, Toby, Allison were off limits. They would never actually be A because then the Ship would sink. But for me it makes more sense for one of the significant others to be A. Having it be a jealous twin was stupid.

Honestly, if Paige had been A I think I'd have liked her a lot more. I respect Paige's story arc, I agree she actually got to grow as a character, which is rare on this show, but I just never found Paige all that interesting. I've seen coming out stories before and hers was nothing I hadn't seen already. There was nothing new to it to make it more interesting than any other coming out story. I also never saw much chemistry between her and Emily so I don't see Paige being The One! Of course I don't see Allison being The One either, but not for lack of chemistry. More because Allison is just a terrible person and Emily is too weak around her. I liked, was it Samaira or something like that, blonde, kind of love childy.

I also can't help but find it interesting that of the four leads, it is the gay one who didn't have a true love story. I know now that it is because they wanted to do the Emily/Allison thing and for some reason wanted to wait until the end of the show, but it is quite interesting that that is the relationship they held off on showing all this time.

[DigitalCount]

7 hours ago, Froippi said:

Well if you really want to bring hypocrisy into this we could say the same people who forgive Alison won't forgive Ezra for the predator stuff he did Even though Aria and Ezra relationship looked better after the time jump

Ezra was an adult when he did all of those things. 

[marinaalexis]

22 minutes ago, DigitalCount said:

Ezra was an adult when he did all of those things. 

I will never understand why people use age to excuse Alison's behavior. She was fifteen years old when she did most of the horrible things she did, so not exactly a child - or a typical fifteen year old, at that. It wasn't like she was ignorant or oblivious about what she was doing. She was conniving, cunning, and fully aware that her actions were hurting others, including her very best friends. Now some of her behavior I do think can be chalked up to age - the general bitchiness and bullying. But blinding a girl, encouraging your friend to develop an eating disorder, and blackmailing adults go far beyond what can be waved away with "but she was a child," imo.

I'm not trying to excuse what Ezra did either, for the record. He can rot.

[Chaos Theory]

There is a lot of hypocrisy in shippers on the show on all sides.   My major issue with Ali is that I liked bad girl Ali and found her vastly more interesting then good girl Ali.  I would have been more interested in the pairing (and possibly even shipped it myself) if she had been AD or had never fully changed and that stupid egg/baby storyline never happened.  That is my issue.  I hate and never bought into good girl Alison.

 

As for Ezra again my issue is that he was an adult when he started a relationship with not one but two teenagers.  Not cool dude.  I still maintain the bravest thing the show did was alluding to him being A for awhile. If they had fully gone there, even redeeming him later my opinion of him would have (not been better) but been less bad and boring.  

Edited July 7, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[Mabinogia]

I liked Ali when she was bad and the show/characters agreed that she was bad. Ironically that is also when I shipped her more with Emily. The idea that Emily had a thing for bad girls, that she wanted to see the best in Ali despite all evidence that there was no best in Ali was interesting. But then the show decided to ship them so Ali had to be declawed and lost everything that made her interesting.

Part of why I love Mona (other than Janel KILLING it!)  is that, though the girls use her help frequently, they do not trust her. She is not and never will really be one of them. They may have "forgiven" the things she has done, but they haven't completely forgotten them and so she can go on being bad without the show feeling like it is approving of her bad behavior. Then again, she hasn't really been shipped with a Liar. Sure, there is some hint of a crush on Hanna, but she wasn't a real love interest so she's allowed to remain bad.

Ezra could have been a deliciously evil character if he hadn't been shipped with Aria. I think the actor could have pulled off a really dark side of the character. Again, shipping happened and Ezra was made a romantic character not a creepy, stalking perv with a thing for underage to barely legal girls.

Shipping as ruined many a character on this show IMO. And I don't mean us fans shipping. That's part of the fun. I mean the show pandering to their favorite ships at the expense of the characters involved. I would even say Paige was a victim of their desire to ship Emily and Alison. People were getting too fond of Paige and it threw a wrench in their plans. I truly believe Paige was not meant to be a real contender for Emily's OTL because that was always going to be Ali. It must have killed the writers when Paige developed such a strong fanbase. haha

[Froippi]

1 hour ago, DigitalCount said:

Ezra was an adult when he did all of those things. 

Sorry but she knew exactly what she was doing age has nothing to do with it stop using age to justify Alison actions

[Artsda]

Alison knew what she was doing at her age, 15 year olds can end up being tried as adults in their crimes. 

[Froippi]

2 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

There is a lot of hypocrisy in shippers on the show on all sides.   My major issue with Ali is that I liked bad girl Ali and found her vastly more interesting then good girl Ali.  I would have been more interested in the pairing (and possibly even shipped it myself) if she had been AD or had never fully changed and that stupid egg/baby storyline never happened.  That is my issue.  I hate and never bought into good girl Alison.

 

As for Ezra again my issue is that he was an adult when he started a relationship with not one but two teenagers.  Not cool dude.  I still maintain the bravest thing the show did was alluding to him being A for awhile. If they had fully gone there, even redeeming him later my opinion of him would have (not been better) but been less bad and boring.  

Alison lie about her age as soon as he found out about Alison he ended it so the Alison thing was a bit different situation 

Edited July 7, 2017 by Froippi

[WhosThatGirl]

9 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I liked Ali when she was bad and the show/characters agreed that she was bad. Ironically that is also when I shipped her more with Emily. The idea that Emily had a thing for bad girls, that she wanted to see the best in Ali despite all evidence that there was no best in Ali was interesting. But then the show decided to ship them so Ali had to be declawed and lost everything that made her interesting.

Part of why I love Mona (other than Janel KILLING it!)  is that, though the girls use her help frequently, they do not trust her. She is not and never will really be one of them. They may have "forgiven" the things she has done, but they haven't completely forgotten them and so she can go on being bad without the show feeling like it is approving of her bad behavior. Then again, she hasn't really been shipped with a Liar. Sure, there is some hint of a crush on Hanna, but she wasn't a real love interest so she's allowed to remain bad.

Ezra could have been a deliciously evil character if he hadn't been shipped with Aria. I think the actor could have pulled off a really dark side of the character. Again, shipping happened and Ezra was made a romantic character not a creepy, stalking perv with a thing for underage to barely legal girls.

Shipping as ruined many a character on this show IMO. And I don't mean us fans shipping. That's part of the fun. I mean the show pandering to their favorite ships at the expense of the characters involved. I would even say Paige was a victim of their desire to ship Emily and Alison. People were getting too fond of Paige and it threw a wrench in their plans. I truly believe Paige was not meant to be a real contender for Emily's OTL because that was always going to be Ali. It must have killed the writers when Paige developed such a strong fanbase. haha

Yeah. I've said so much about Emison in other threads but to me the worst was that as much as I know this show panders to the shippers (see Spoby and Ezra and why they couldn't be A) Emison always feels worse to me because ever since Ali returned, it was obvious that Emison was the endgame. Even when we didn't know what (if anything) Alison was up to. And I say this because Shay was all about this pairing when Sasha/Ali returned.

 

I'm sure some of it was her toeing the company line of course and maybe because she saw Alison and Emily as  Emilys big Ezra/Aria, Hanna/Caleb Spencer/Toby thing, but all over her Instagram, she was all about that relantionship-I said it on TDDUP episode thread but she was hawking tshirts with Sasha like Emison forever and all that and I knew Emily and Alison were the endgame. No matter what. Even if Ali turned out evil or they didn't literally end up together, I had my theory that Emily would wind up alone or even with someone but they'd have her have a line that she never got over her big epic crush on Alison. Or that the show would go and kill Alison for good and leave Emily with a tragic broken heart or something. 

So many things bug me about Emison. I don't know why but I don't even truly believe Alison cares for Emily as much as Emily does her. I still remember moments or lines Emily said about how Alison liked the attention Emily gave her and Emily said something about how Alison didn't love others herself but she love and affection from others and then I go back to Paige in this season confronting Alison about how she feels about Emily and Alison saying she likes how she feels when Emily looks at her. Okay. Whatever.

Also I just realized I wrote an essay about a fictional relationship. Ha. Sorry for the long post. 

[marinaalexis]

8 hours ago, WhosThatGirl said:

So many things bug me about Emison. I don't know why but I don't even truly believe Alison cares for Emily as much as Emily does her. I still remember moments or lines Emily said about how Alison liked the attention Emily gave her and Emily said something about how Alison didn't love others herself but she love and affection from others and then I go back to Paige in this season confronting Alison about how she feels about Emily and Alison saying she likes how she feels when Emily looks at her. Okay. Whatever.

I think you've got it exactly right. I've never gotten the feeling that Alison actually loves Emily. She loves the way that Emily loves her. They forced in so many little lovey-dovey scenes with Ali confessing her feelings, but every single one of them had to do with how Emily looks at her and how Emily has always loved her. Even her big proposal was ridiculous: "When I was at my most lonely and unhappy and angry place, you loved me. And when I was an ugly human being, you saw a beautiful soul." Once again, all about how Emily loves her. Not one mention, ever, about what she loves about Emily.

[Froippi]

Speaking of proposal I think out of 3 of those I think Ezra proposal to Aria was the best one but I still just got tired of Alison playing the victim card It seems she has played that so many times on Emily

[WhosThatGirl]

3 hours ago, marinaalexis said:

I think you've got it exactly right. I've never gotten the feeling that Alison actually loves Emily. She loves the way that Emily loves her. They forced in so many little lovey-dovey scenes with Ali confessing her feelings, but every single one of them had to do with how Emily looks at her and how Emily has always loved her. Even her big proposal was ridiculous: "When I was at my most lonely and unhappy and angry place, you loved me. And when I was an ugly human being, you saw a beautiful soul." Once again, all about how Emily loves her. Not one mention, ever, about what she loves about Emily.

Even in the episode where they get together at the end, that didn't  feel like big moment of realizing you're in love with someone.  I can't remember it word for word but Alison's speech was kind of like "no one has else that I have dated  have worked out ever because of you, let's be a family with this baby that we were forced into". I mean.. there are so many things wrong with this statement. So. Many. 

Like one. Ali has been holding a torch for Emily? And what other relantionships didn't work out? The meaninglessness ones she had as a teen when she was playing around but that the show wants us to forget because shes good now? Or the cop she dated in season 5 when she came back? That didn't work out because she played him to get info about A. Or is she talking about her con man husband Archer? Well, yeah, of course, that didn't work out, he conned her. And.. I mean clearly Alison was not holding some torch for Emily when she married someone else! 

Edited July 8, 2017 by WhosThatGirl

[Mabinogia]

5 hours ago, marinaalexis said:

I've never gotten the feeling that Alison actually loves Emily. She loves the way that Emily loves her.

This is exactly my impression of their relationship. Ali loves that Emily was still hung up on her after all this time and after all the terrible things she did. Ali will never find that kind of devotion so she "loves" Emily (as much as someone like her can love anyone! *Galavant shout out*). I'm not entirely sure Emily is in love with Ali so much as Emily has a bit of a martyr complex and is drawn to people who need her. Ali is about as needy of affection and devotion as you can get so...perfect match in the most destructive, co-dependant way possible.

Thing is, their "love story" could have had potential, if the show had ever bothered actually writing it. The actresses worked well together but there just wasn't any connection other than Ali loving how much attention Emily gave her and Emily being drawn to damaged people.

[Chinspinner]

1 hour ago, Mabinogia said:

This is exactly my impression of their relationship. Ali loves that Emily was still hung up on her after all this time and after all the terrible things she did. Ali will never find that kind of devotion so she "loves" Emily (as much as someone like her can love anyone! *Galavant shout out*). I'm not entirely sure Emily is in love with Ali so much as Emily has a bit of a martyr complex and is drawn to people who need her. Ali is about as needy of affection and devotion as you can get so...perfect match in the most destructive, co-dependant way possible.

Thing is, their "love story" could have had potential, if the show had ever bothered actually writing it. The actresses worked well together but there just wasn't any connection other than Ali loving how much attention Emily gave her and Emily being drawn to damaged people.

Ignoring the fact that Ali should have stayed dead, if we had actually witnessed her rehabilitation, and if she had atoned for some of her truly unpleasant behaviour (i.e. if she had an arc), then the relationship would be much more palatable. Unfortunately the writers mistook rehabilitation with punishment (psycho husband and violation of her body), and mistook atonement with becoming ineffectual and needy. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that Paige had become a stronger and more compelling character as Ali became weaker and more pathetic.  

[marinaalexis]

32 minutes ago, Chinspinner said:

Ignoring the fact that Ali should have stayed dead, if we had actually witnessed her rehabilitation, and if she had atoned for some of her truly unpleasant behaviour (i.e. if she had an arc), then the relationship would be much more palatable. Unfortunately the writers mistook rehabilitation with punishment (psycho husband and violation of her body), and mistook atonement with becoming ineffectual and needy. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that Paige had become a stronger and more compelling character as Ali became weaker and more pathetic.  

Agreed. The problem is that the writers couldn't seem to figure out what to do with Alison, including whether to make her Emily's love interest, until far too late. She was the innocent victim for about five episodes once she returned, then the girls distrusted her and thought she was A for a good part of season five, then she was practically a separate entity in 6a, and back to almost being an antagonist at the start of 6b (or at least the premiere episode sure gave that impression). It wasn't until the later half of 6b that they seemed to finally decide that she was going to be a "good" character, so in order to try and erase everything that she'd done to her so-called friends, they locked her up in a mental institution against her will, artificially inseminated her with Emily's eggs, and converted her personality into a sniveling, attention-seeking princess in need of constant coddling. Unfortunately for the writers, constant torment and punishment doesn't make up for the terrible misdeeds of a character.

[WhosThatGirl]

Speaking of 6b, up until the final couple episodes of that season, Alison and Emily hardly shared the screen. At least not in the sense of them having some grand epic love that they apparently have now.

And that's at least more than I can say for the rest of the relantionships, that even when all of them are dysfunctional, at least the put effort into them somewhere. With Emily and Alison it was always like "almost" And then something would happen and the girls would distrust Alison for the rest of the season and so Emison was an afterthought. 

I mean.. so many things are laughable. I guess in that year span time that happened off screen they got super duper close because they're deeply in love now at the series finale(again all of this happened off screen so no build up). The fact that when they announced they were a couple and hanna said "Finally" like what? I mean.. it's just.. okay. 

And also when the whole last scene of season 6a was a dream of Emily's because Marlene and company forgot about it and Marlene said it was a good idea for it to be a dream because it showed how deep Emily's feelings ran for Ali. Like.. um.. I never have doubted emilys adoration for Ali. Emily's been in love with her to the point of desperation for this entire series.

[Jack Shaftoe]

Quote

Ignoring the fact that Ali should have stayed dead, if we had actually witnessed her rehabilitation, and if she had atoned for some of her truly unpleasant behaviour (i.e. if she had an arc), then the relationship would be much more palatable. Unfortunately the writers mistook rehabilitation with punishment (psycho husband and violation of her body), and mistook atonement with becoming ineffectual and needy. 

Agreed. This happens so often on TV - some character has done horrible things, then something horrible happen to them and said character is magically redeemed somehow.

Quote

Thing is, their "love story" could have had potential, if the show had ever bothered actually writing it. The actresses worked well together but there just wasn't any connection other than Ali loving how much attention Emily gave her and Emily being drawn to damaged people.

I am almost inclined to believe the writers were trolling the shippers - "Oh, you keep asking for Emison, is that? The network suits wants us to do it, too, so, fine we will do it. Here is how it will unfold - the Big Bad will force Alison to carry Emily's baby, then they will immediately decide to live together and practically on the next day they will decide to also start dating because why not - they are already living together, might as well date too. Really romantic, right? And we will do all that right after an episode where Emily reconnects with Paige and the two of them are this close to leaving Rosewood." But it was probably just incompetence or not caring about the show any more.

[kissedbyarose]

I may or may not be torturing myself with a rewatch of this show (best friend and I are semi-bed ridden) and Ezra and Aria's relationship is even creepier and crazier than I remembered.

Aria tried several times to end the relationship with Ezra and even attempted to date other people. He sabotaged it each time and watching this knowing what he was doing the entire time makes it a million times worse. 

Also, they clearly "planned" to make Cece A (or at least part of the A team) since she showed up but that backstory during her reveal contradicts almost everything the show told us about her which we all knew already. 

[Froippi]

I think the worse part is Emison was voted Teen choice award for best ship I about couldn't believe it rather see Lydia and Stiles voted from Teen wolf at least its been their through the show maybe not a couple but also as friends