Book to Show: Compare and Contrast

[Noneofyourbusiness]

1 hour ago, quarks said:

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Fingers crossed that this is something that the show either drops completely, or changes. A lot.

 

Spoiler

Given the general trend of the show to be more progressive than the source material, I think it's a strong possibility they would change that.

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Noneofyourbusiness

[DoctorAtomic]

I'm sure you all knew the Foretelling was coming with the '20 years ago' tag. Much better than the book to preface it with Moiraine and Siuane talking about their future together. 

Actually nice of the show to confirm the consent with the warder bonds. I think that's a good update especially what's coming later. 

I really hope Egwene's time as a slave on the show isn't dragged out. I wonder if she could burn out Renna? Not that it's a bad plot, but I don't remember much from the books, except the dread I feel. Didn't she have a slave name?

Did Rand meet Siuane in the books one-on-one? Except for the 'boy' nonsense, I thought it was a good conversation. I was surprised she was reasonably honest. Did she shield Rand in the books? That's not going to end well if Lews starts babbling. 

I guess they're going early on Mat with the Odin-ing. That's probably a good idea because he's been basically just banging around now, and all of a sudden being the greatest military mind in human history. 

They're doing so much better with Moraine and Rand on the show than in the books for me. Did Moraine ever say she trusted Rand this early on? I'm buying this Moiraine can whack Lanfear, and because Lanfear is so much better here too. 

I'm really glad they're getting into Ish's philosophy on the wheel. 

It's good to that they're bringing in Alanna on the Dragon this early too. And Rand is back with Lan to learn the sword. 

[DoctorAtomic]

I forgot to add that I liked showing that there is a tangible effect of the Oath Rod too. 

[Danny Franks]

7 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I really hope Egwene's time as a slave on the show isn't dragged out. I wonder if she could burn out Renna? Not that it's a bad plot, but I don't remember much from the books, except the dread I feel. Didn't she have a slave name?

Her new name was Tuli. In the books Renna let her keep her name too, until Egwene disappointed her and she took it away as a punishment. I'm sure we'll see her do that in the finale.

But I'm also sure the other two Wonder Girls will rescue her and uncover the secret of the sul'dam. Leaving Renna wearing the a'dam and stuck in that cell will be a fitting punishment.

7 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Did Rand meet Siuane in the books one-on-one? Except for the 'boy' nonsense, I thought it was a good conversation. I was surprised she was reasonably honest. Did she shield Rand in the books? That's not going to end well if Lews starts babbling. 

Never one-on-one. When Siuan meets him, she has Moiraine and Verin there too. The scene in the show was a much abbreviated version of it, and obviously ended very differently.

In the book, Siuan basically tells Rand who he is and that he will fight the Last Battle, but she never tries to control him or Shield him. I think she suggests later that she thought about it, and Verin admits she thought about whether they might have to Gentle him.

7 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

They're doing so much better with Moraine and Rand on the show than in the books for me. Did Moraine ever say she trusted Rand this early on? I'm buying this Moiraine can whack Lanfear, and because Lanfear is so much better here too. 

They've made all the characters more formidable and competent, but especially these three.

Book purists have been whining that they're "doing Rand dirty" as though he should be the Head Dragon in Control already and not still the sheepherder with a great destiny that he can't even get his head around. But we're already seeing him grow as a character, and he has to, to keep up with Moiraine and Lanfear.

7 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

 

It's good to that they're bringing in Alanna on the Dragon this early too. And Rand is back with Lan to learn the sword. 

I find myself definitely hoping the storyline of Alanna losing a warder is part of season three. I like all three characters, but they are using Maksim and Ihvon too much as a peanut gallery and exposition fairies. 

[DoctorAtomic]

You can't make a show for purists.

Rand really didn't accept he was actually the Dragon until he yanked out Callandor anyway. So being HDIC at this point doesn't track with the books anyway. 

Here, the last time Rand channeled, he literally burned the house down. Now he's got Moiraine saying she trusts him, and he learns he *can* control it *and* use it for good. 

Rand basically acts like a bitch to her in the books and then she's gone for years. Out of nowhere he asks her to unBore the Bore. That's not going to work on TV. 

This was a very well written character scene. Lan unearthed a huge clue, Moiraine treats Rand as an actual person, and Rand comes through. 

I don't see what else you could want from the show. 

[areca]

My favorite scenes so far are Renna and Egwene - those two actors are nailing some really intense work and taking it to the next level.  The way the actor plays Renna is..disturbing, perturbing, and stunning. And the actor playing Egwene is very, very good.  I think she said all of 5 words in this episode and yet, that's all that was needed.  I'm loving Lanfear.  It's like Puck x Cruella DeVil x Glinda.  Much less fun in the books.  Ishy's interesting too.  The books didn't really develop the forsaken as much as the show seems to be able to, from a character standpoint, and I'm rather enjoying the way the medium is fleshing them out. In the books they were just "Evil with Historical Facts".

[DoctorAtomic]

4 minutes ago, areca said:

think she said all of 5 words in this episode and yet, that's all that was needed. 

I think she only had that one line. 

5 minutes ago, areca said:

The books didn't really develop the forsaken as much as the show seems to be able to, from a character standpoint, and I'm rather enjoying the way the medium is fleshing them out. In the books they were just "Evil with Historical Facts".

They really only were at the beginning of the books in the Prologues and the end. I get that they're supposed to be in the shadows, but they were written so oblique that I'd question whether Jordan really knew what to do with them as a whole. The main ones, obviously, and that worked well. 

Maybe like we were saying not having all of them on the show will help. We talked about 8; I'd even say 6.

With Liandrin front and center, seemingly as the lead Black in the Tower, and quite clearly interacting with all the main players, Meseanna isn't necessary. We already speculated on that much earlier. 

[quarks]

I continue to see quite a few improvements from book to screen:

1. Lanfear. Her whole "wow, killing people and setting things on fire is just so boring but if this is what I need to do to get my kink fulfilled, ok, fire and murder it is," coupled with the brilliant manipulation here of forcing Moiraine to either let Rand and Lan walk off with Lanfear without any protection, or, walking off with a Forsaken right in front of Siuan, presumably confirming all of Siuan's worst fears - that was all great. She's coming across as an extremely effective agent of chaos and evil.

2. Barthanes: in the books, a blink and you'll miss it obvious Darkfriend appearance; here, a genuinely ambiguous introduction that fit with the whole "the price of doing the ethical thing" discussion.

3. Tower coup setup: In the books the whole Tower plot seemed motivated largely by the Black Ajah and Elaida's ambition/inability to see the larger picture. Part of this was that most of our POVs of this came from anti-coup people or Alviarin, none of whom were inclined to be sympathetic to Elaida, but the end result was a lack of acknowledgement that plenty of Aes Sedai who were not Black Ajah joined the coup because they felt that Elaida had a point - and they weren't wrong. Siuan did plenty of highly questionable things pre-coup. But outside of one or two scenes, the book didn't focus on this. Instead it was all Elaida, Elaida, Elaida and how disastrous she was - which, true, but also, ignores just how Elaida got there in the first place.

I think this episode helped show just why about one-third of the Aes Sedai ended up supporting Elaida. Even if show Siuan turns out to be under Compulsion - an intriguing theory - there's still a lot that the rest of the Aes Sedai can say.

4. And more Lanfear, under spoilers because Avaleigh isn't there in the books yet but:

 

Spoiler

Lanfear sent Tomas after Mat and Verin to Rand, right? What I loved about this was that the show left us just enough hints to figure out that Lanfear sent Verin to Rand so it will make sense later, but also left things just ambiguous enough that I wasn't entirely certain. 

 

Show Lanfear, getting things done.

 

 

[DoctorAtomic]

1 hour ago, quarks said:

Barthanes: in the books, a blink and you'll miss it obvious Darkfriend appearance

I did miss it because I asked about it here. This was much better because he made a sandwich for Moiraine. Think about that. Huge character enhancement for me because they had him make a sandwich. I didn't even remember he was an actual character in the books. 

1 hour ago, quarks said:

Show Lanfear, getting things done.

Again, my memory is not great, but book 2 was a lot of 'Selene' playing damsel to Rand while they gallivanted through the portal stones. There wasn't much plot there except they were in Seanchan before we knew they were the Seanchan. 

1 hour ago, quarks said:

Tower coup setup: In the books the whole Tower plot seemed motivated largely by the Black Ajah and Elaida's ambition/inability to see the larger picture. Part of this was that most of our POVs of this came from anti-coup people or Alviarin, none of whom were inclined to be sympathetic to Elaida, but the end result was a lack of acknowledgement that plenty of Aes Sedai who were not Black Ajah joined the coup because they felt that Elaida had a point - and they weren't wrong. Siuan did plenty of highly questionable things pre-coup. But outside of one or two scenes, the book didn't focus on this. Instead it was all Elaida, Elaida, Elaida and how disastrous she was - which, true, but also, ignores just how Elaida got there in the first place.

The whole Tower politics never really grasped my interest, though I concede that the plot was necessary. I do agree that the show is doing a better job of setup. You do have the historical parallel of the two popes. Though from the show, Siuan is kind of limited in what she can do once faced with the actual Dragon. She told Rand what the Tower philosophy was for the Last Battle, but he got spooked and she had to shield him before she could really talk more about that. It's kind of on her there. I do think that she thought letting them all go through the waygate *with a Foresaken* was legitimately rash, but compelling Moiraine was clearly the wrong move, and she knows that. What does any Amerlyn do though? The Dragon is largely an academic construct. Until he's an actual person in front of you. You know you can't gentle him; you can't keep your strongest assets maintaining a shield on him 24-7 for the next what? 50 years? 100? You can't force him to channel, and he can't learn because you gentled everyone else that could teach him.

Everyone has a game plan until you get punched in the mouth. All of that's going to be blowback and lead to the schism, but I'm not sure anyone else in that position would have a better idea. 

1 hour ago, quarks said:

And more Lanfear, under spoilers because Avaleigh isn't there in the books yet but:

I think we all need to support Avs to read faster. Take a personal day. 

[quarks]

The thing is, Siuan compelled Moiraine before Lanfear showed up at the Waygate - but after Lanfear set fire to the Waygate.

Once Lanfear showed up, Siuan really couldn't do much.

So I don't blame Siuan for what happened after Lanfear showed up at the Waygate. I do blame her for what happened before that - in particular, antagonizing Rand. 

[DoctorAtomic]

I got it a little backward. She didn't 'let' them go through the waygate, per se. Yes, she compelled Moiraine first to shut the gate, but when Lanfear showed up, what was going to happen? Kill the Dragon? I don't think trying to go one-on-one with Lanfear was smart. The only escape is through the waygate. Siuan could have tried to buy some time. Sure, though, options were very limited, and at that point, she lost Moiraine. 

20 minutes ago, quarks said:

I do blame her for what happened before that - in particular, antagonizing Rand. 

I was coming from the pov that Siuan really wasn't going to cage and shield Rand until the Last Battle. She was being droll with him, and he, still being only a 'boy' wasn't picking up on it, and he freaked out, so she shielded him to buy time to figure out what to do and get the whole story from Moiraine. 100% her fault because now he's not particularly inclined to work with the Tower. To be fair to Siuan, I said before that she might have thought by just the fact of him being the Dragon that he knew way more about channeling. She should have just invited him and Moiraine together. 

In hindsight, this was probably a good outcome. Siuan knows now firsthand that the Foresaken are no joke, and Lanfear wasn't ever considered one of the most powerful. 

[quarks]

I thought Lanfear was supposed to be one of the most powerful of the Forsaken - more powerful than the rest of the women and more skilled than most of the men? I mean she was the person who discovered the True Source.

The one place where she was outclassed was in the dream world, by Moghedien.

Anyway, back to Siuan - I didn't take that conversation as particularly droll. She seemed serious, and she followed up the shielding by passing on the shield to another Aes Sedai and imprisoning Rand in the Sun Palace. Not exactly anything that would make her and the Aes Sedai seem trustworthy - and she knows Rand has been hanging out with Logain who has solid reasons not to trust the Aes Sedai either. 

I like Siuan, but she made a number of missteps here; add in the fact that the Aes Sedai she sent to check out what was happening in the west are now all collared prisoners, and I can see why she's in for major trouble next season.

[DoctorAtomic]

1 hour ago, quarks said:

I like Siuan, but she made a number of missteps here; add in the fact that the Aes Sedai she sent to check out what was happening in the west are now all collared prisoners, and I can see why she's in for major trouble next season.

I agree she mishandled everything. I don't think she intended to start that way, but she ended up painting herself into a corner. The whole problem with the Tower is that they can't get over themselves, and I think the show was consistent here in setting that up. 

I really don't remember the relative strengths of the Foresaken, but I think Lanfear was tops of the women but that was 5th on the chart maybe. Franks knows all these kinds of details. 

She also carried an angreal too. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

14 hours ago, quarks said:

I mean she was the person who discovered the True Source.

She discovered the Dark One, who is the source of the so-called "True Power". The True Source is the source of the One Power.

12 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I really don't remember the relative strengths of the Foresaken, but I think Lanfear was tops of the women but that was 5th on the chart maybe. Franks knows all these kinds of details.

Lanfear was the most powerful female channeler ever born. But most of the male Forsaken were stronger in terms of raw power. She was still considered one of the most dangerous and top-ranked Forsaken. ("Word of God has said that the top ranks of the Forsaken were always filled by Ishamael, Lanfear, Demandred, and to a lesser extent Graendal, Sammael, and Semirhage.") And Siuan would likely be more familiar with Lanfear's reputation from the legends than her exact power level.

Moiraine in the show called her "the most dangerous of the Forsaken" when she told Rand who 'Selene' really was in "Daughter of the Night".

[DoctorAtomic]

1 hour ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Moiraine in the show called her "the most dangerous of the Forsaken" when she told Rand who 'Selene' really was in "Daughter of the Night".

The Foresaken have more skills than just the One Power. Far be it from me to disagree with Moiraine, but she was more referring to her mastery of the Dreamworld. Even falling asleep is dangerous. Also being the jilted ex-girlfriend of Lews makes her dangerous in a way outside of the One Power. 

Ishamael is thinking more strategically in freeing her now instead of a Demandred, who is really not going to be inclined to turn Rand to the dark at this stage. 

Once Falme happens, they're going to have to rethink the strategy. 

[quarks]

I keep forgetting the correct terms for One Power/True Power/True Source!

[MissLucas]

13 minutes ago, quarks said:

I keep forgetting the correct terms for One Power/True Power/True Source!

Ditto and worse - I nearly typed the Force in the episode discussion.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

21 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

The Foresaken have more skills than just the One Power. Far be it from me to disagree with Moiraine, but she was more referring to her mastery of the Dreamworld. Even falling asleep is dangerous. Also being the jilted ex-girlfriend of Lews makes her dangerous in a way outside of the One Power.

Yes, that was the point I was making. Lanfear's power level could be different in the show than the books, but either way Siuan like Moiraine would consider her one of the worst Forsaken to watch out for, not an example of 'if Lanfear is this dangerous then the others must be capable of even worse' because what they're capable of doing is also related to how bad and how savvy they are (and, again, she'd be more familiar with the tales of their deeds and Lanfear's reputation than with how each of them ranked in the One Power compared to the others, since the tales wouldn't be that specific. Also, she can't even sense the men channeling if they did meet and wouldn't learn they were stronger than Lanfear that way. That wouldn't be what had her worried).

Edited October 3, 2023 by Noneofyourbusiness

[DoctorAtomic]

I'm fine if the show actually bumps her up at the expense of thinning out the Foresaken overall. She could have an angreal too. Easy way to introduce that into the show. 

Being one of the more 'famous' Forsaken, legend is going to inflate that.

 

[quarks]

I'll have more to say later, but for now, carrying on my little obsession:

Confirmation that we have Sammael!

So, of the eight Forsaken in the show, we now have:

In the show:

1. Ishamael

2. Lanfear

3. Moghedien

Name dropped:

4. Graendel

5. Sammael

Three left!

I'm guessing - just guessing - that the remaining three are Asmodean (one of the statues has a guitar); Demandred (for a certain sequence in the series finale, if the show gets there); and Semirhage or Rahvin.

 

[quarks]

A few more scattered thoughts:

1. After thinking about it, I think - I think - I prefer the book version of Egwene's rescue to the show version. Yes, watching Egwene enact vengeance against Renna was visually satisfying, especially after the whole braid cutting bit and Renna's entirely unnecessary "Good girl." And I think switching the whole thing from "can learn to channel" to "weaker in the Power" is much easier to show on tv, so, I'm fine with that. And I was not overly fond of the way Renna kept popping up again in the books, so, having her die, yeah, I'm fine with that.

But Nynaeve's rescue had that great bit about justice, and about not letting the Seanchan turn Egwene into one of them. I wish we'd gotten that.

2. While I'm thinking about this - the show hasn't clarified Ryma's fate. I didn't see her on the tower or on the ships. Did her sul'dam have time to drag Ryma from the prisons to the ships, and did they reach a ship that didn't sink? I could ask that in the episode thread, but I know in the book thread that she lives.

3. Speaking of Egwene, though...I cheered her on while she was fighting Ishy, so, yeah, that emotionally worked for me at the time and when I was typing up my original thoughts in the episode thread. And, yes, I saw the cracks in her magical shield before Perrin showed up with his magical shield, so...Ishy was stronger that she was. HOWEVER. The fact that she could hold her own against Ishy, however briefly, seems to take away from Nynaeve's big moment of being the first of Our Heroes to take down a Forsaken without balefire.

I always felt that book Egwene's strength wasn't so much in the power, but in her insistence on learning everything and then applying that knowledge. I guess to a certain extent we saw that here: the Seanchan trained her, and she applied that knowledge. And yet...I dunno. The further away I get from my first watch, the more I wish that her shield against Ishy had been immediately amplified by a link with Nynaeve or Elayne or both.

4. After years of fan arguments about whether or not Uno was Gaidal Cain, I kinda loved that Uno was there with the Heroes of the Horn, more or less as Gaidal Cain.

5. Small thing, but the more the show keeps giving us little Perrin/Egwene moments like that, the more I am not looking forward to the introductions of Faile and Gawyn, two of my least favorite characters anyway.

6. I have....quite a few thoughts about what the show may or may not be doing with Min.

For now, however, it's hard not to note that in this episode, as the Magical Faked Dragon swirled around, Elayne was standing just behind but next to Rand; and Aviendha and Lanfear, on the ground, were looking up at him approvingly. That would be the three beautiful women.

Given that there's been some speculation/debate that Rand's original three women were supposed to be Min, Elayne and Lanfear, only for RJ to change his mind and decide that none of Rand's love interests could be Darkfriends, and that Rand needed an Aiel love interest....I couldn't help wondering if the long term plan here is to have show Rand's love interests end up being Elayne, Aviendha and, uh, Lanfear. I don't think that's what the show is doing, but the decision to leave Min out of this episode, in a major change from the books, and have that shot of Lanfear on the streets below looking up at Rand and smiling, plus that whole "The Light be with you, Rand" bit, is definitely making me wonder.

Or the show is just playing with me. Quite possible!

[Noneofyourbusiness]

16 hours ago, quarks said:

I'll have more to say later, but for now, carrying on my little obsession:

Confirmation that we have Sammael!

So, of the eight Forsaken in the show, we now have:

In the show:

1. Ishamael

2. Lanfear

3. Moghedien

Name dropped:

4. Graendel

5. Sammael

Three left!

I'm guessing - just guessing - that the remaining three are Asmodean (one of the statues has a guitar); Demandred (for a certain sequence in the series finale, if the show gets there); and Semirhage or Rahvin.

I think Lanfear's earlier reference to Moghedien, Graendal and "the boys" means that it won't be Semirhage. And if Moghedien is more psycho in the show than the books, Semirhage could have been folded into her.

[Danny Franks]

14 hours ago, quarks said:

A few more scattered thoughts:

1. After thinking about it, I think - I think - I prefer the book version of Egwene's rescue to the show version. Yes, watching Egwene enact vengeance against Renna was visually satisfying, especially after the whole braid cutting bit and Renna's entirely unnecessary "Good girl." And I think switching the whole thing from "can learn to channel" to "weaker in the Power" is much easier to show on tv, so, I'm fine with that. 

Agreed. It gave Nynaeve and Elayne (and Min) purpose and a goal that was different from the boys - they were on the dudes' adventure for the Horn, while the girls were trying to save their friend. It was a nice contrast.

Egwene saving herself the way she did kind of undermines the threat of the a'dam. But I did like that she was able to resist Renna's commands - it means that damane have to be truly broken and cowed, rather than just forced into cooperating with threats.

14 hours ago, quarks said:

3. Speaking of Egwene, though...I cheered her on while she was fighting Ishy, so, yeah, that emotionally worked for me at the time and when I was typing up my original thoughts in the episode thread. And, yes, I saw the cracks in her magical shield before Perrin showed up with his magical shield, so...Ishy was stronger that she was. HOWEVER. The fact that she could hold her own against Ishy, however briefly, seems to take away from Nynaeve's big moment of being the first of Our Heroes to take down a Forsaken without balefire.

It wasn't explicitly said, but the end revealed that Ishy had likely used a load of One Power to release the other six Forsaken, so he might have been too tired to just wipe Egwene off the face of the earth.

Or he might have been deliberately making it look like he was trying to win, without actually trying to win. If he can't break the Wheel in this turning, maybe he'd rather die and be reborn than wait another however many thousand years for he Age of Legends to come around again.

14 hours ago, quarks said:

I always felt that book Egwene's strength wasn't so much in the power, but in her insistence on learning everything and then applying that knowledge. I guess to a certain extent we saw that here: the Seanchan trained her, and she applied that knowledge. And yet...I dunno. The further away I get from my first watch, the more I wish that her shield against Ishy had been immediately amplified by a link with Nynaeve or Elayne or both.

I wished that too. Giving Nynaeve something to do in the finale that wasn't just carrying Elayne. If she'd taken over the shield because Egwene was exhausted, then they'd still have needed Elayne to Heal Rand.

By the way, I really liked that their first meeting here, with her Healing him, was a nod to their original meeting in the books - where she bandages his head after he falls into the palace garden. 

14 hours ago, quarks said:

4. After years of fan arguments about whether or not Uno was Gaidal Cain, I kinda loved that Uno was there with the Heroes of the Horn, more or less as Gaidal Cain.

He was standing next to Birgitte Silverbow and carried two swords. He was definitely meant to be Gaidal. Whether that's ever spelled out, I don't know.

14 hours ago, quarks said:

5. Small thing, but the more the show keeps giving us little Perrin/Egwene moments like that, the more I am not looking forward to the introductions of Faile and Gawyn, two of my least favorite characters anyway.

I'm not looking forward to Gawyn, he's an ass. But the actress cast as Faile looks perfect, and I want to see Perrin being bemused and then opening up to her somewhat blunt attentions.

14 hours ago, quarks said:

6. I have....quite a few thoughts about what the show may or may not be doing with Min.

For now, however, it's hard not to note that in this episode, as the Magical Faked Dragon swirled around, Elayne was standing just behind but next to Rand; and Aviendha and Lanfear, on the ground, were looking up at him approvingly. That would be the three beautiful women.

Given that there's been some speculation/debate that Rand's original three women were supposed to be Min, Elayne and Lanfear, only for RJ to change his mind and decide that none of Rand's love interests could be Darkfriends, and that Rand needed an Aiel love interest....I couldn't help wondering if the long term plan here is to have show Rand's love interests end up being Elayne, Aviendha and, uh, Lanfear. I don't think that's what the show is doing, but the decision to leave Min out of this episode, in a major change from the books, and have that shot of Lanfear on the streets below looking up at Rand and smiling, plus that whole "The Light be with you, Rand" bit, is definitely making me wonder.

Min has always been my least favourite of Rand's women. She's just so one-note. Especially in the later books where she exists just to "keep Rand human" by smiling at him, telling him he's doing great and having sex with him.

It's no wonder she's the "number one girl" for so many of the worst elements of the book fandom. Despite being the one who's nonconformative in the way she dresses and styles her hair, she's the conservative ideal in the way she behaves.

So anyway, I'd be more than happy if they cut her from the triumvirate. I don't think they will. I still don't really see how they're going to set up all three girls being interested in him. Elayne may start season three pursuing him, but there's unlikely to be much time before Rand heads off to the Waste, where Aviendha will likely become his focus.

[DoctorAtomic]

The final showdown with Lanfear and Mo is going to kill so hard. I thought Moiraine was going to kill her with that look. 

I thought Avienda was supposed to be tall, no?

Did Ishamael have all the seals in his bedroom? I thought in the books they randomly popped up. 

I can't say enough how well the show has done with Lan. 

I guess Rand wasn't going to fight with the sword just yet. 

Wasn't Ingtar a Darkfriend in the books too? 

Clever clever clever to show Mat making the staff. 

I don't remember the final showdown with Egwene in the books, but I like how this was done so High Noon on the show. We didn't learn the sul'dam were channelers till way later on right? I'm so relieved they wrapped this plot up quickly. I also think it's a smart narrative choice because it shows how smart and tough Egwene is for what's coming down the line. 

I don't recall Rand being shielded at Falme either, but it's cool. You'd think he'd have more situational awareness by now. 

I needed to see Mat blow that Horn. I was worried the show would have it be someone else. I didn't realize they were flat out making Mat one of them. 

Clever way for Rand to get the wound and Min's vision. 

I do like the take of the major players all being on the tower at Falme. That's a good call. 

If Falme is this off the chain, the last battle better make Game of Thrones look like a student film. 

I honestly don't think I jumped up and yelled so much since Farscape. 

18 hours ago, quarks said:

I'm guessing - just guessing - that the remaining three are Asmodean (one of the statues has a guitar); Demandred (for a certain sequence in the series finale, if the show gets there); and Semirhage or Rahvin.

I'm saying Asmodean is out because Logain has been introduced so early in the show to train Rand. 

[RachelKM]

15 hours ago, quarks said:

6. I have....quite a few thoughts about what the show may or may not be doing with Min.

I haven't read as far as the three lovers stuff, but I'm aware of it.  Nothing I've seen of the show's Min reads as someone who would be romantically, or even transitorily sexually, interested in Rand. She just reads as more mature than any of the Two Rivers crowd. It not the age of the actress (though she is older than them). She just carries herself as someone who much more mature and self-possessed than our team of 20yos.

It seems like a pretty major departure from the books to change that relationship (however hilarious it would be to enrage the toxic end of the fandom, if @Danny Franks comment is accurate). But it's going to take some convincing for me to buy show Min and Rand as a couple.

I guess I have to see Min and Rand actually interact for more than 3 minutes to be sure. I will admit, Rand was vastly improved this season and could mature and improve further. But as they currently read, it just doesn't track for me. 

 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

15 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Wasn't Ingtar a Darkfriend in the books too?

Until shortly before he died.

15 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

 We didn't learn the sul'dam were channelers till way later on right?

We learned it the same way in the books. Min, Elayne and Nynaeve put a'dam on Renna and Seta when they rescued Egwene in the second book, The Great Hunt.

[DoctorAtomic]

16 hours ago, quarks said:

After thinking about it, I think - I think - I prefer the book version of Egwene's rescue to the show version.

I thought it was dragged on too much in the books. Here, I think the show is setting up for her role down the road. She went even with Ishmael. Nynaeve is already established as the strongest in 1000 years. I think the show wanted to almost get that out of the way earlier, and get out the secret of the sul'dam. 

16 hours ago, quarks said:

The fact that she could hold her own against Ishy, however briefly, seems to take away from Nynaeve's big moment of being the first of Our Heroes to take down a Forsaken without balefire.

I'm not so sure because it was even here. Nynaeve getting a clear win still will have an impact. 

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

Min has always been my least favourite of Rand's women. She's just so one-note. Especially in the later books where she exists just to "keep Rand human" by smiling at him, telling him he's doing great and having sex with him

I'm hoping that Min gets more into the philosophy of the Wheel and helps Rand figure out how to win at the end. 

 

[quarks]

8 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

It wasn't explicitly said, but the end revealed that Ishy had likely used a load of One Power to release the other six Forsaken, so he might have been too tired to just wipe Egwene off the face of the earth.

Or he might have been deliberately making it look like he was trying to win, without actually trying to win. If he can't break the Wheel in this turning, maybe he'd rather die and be reborn than wait another however many thousand years for he Age of Legends to come around again.

 

Lanfear pointed out that the six seals were cuendillar, which at least in theory should be very difficult to break - Ishy certainly had to spend some time/effort just freeing Lanfear earlier this season, and in the cold open it seemed to take eight people to seal away a single Forsaken. So, yeah, I could certainly see that being a major power drain. Then he had to do the illusion thingy to get Mat to stab Rand, probably less of a power drain, but still something, and signal Suroth, and attack Rand. So, yeah, exhaustion was probably a thing.

But beyond that I don't think he really wanted Egwene dead. He easily could have killed her at any point while she was imprisoned as a damane and he had those lovely rooms with the Seanchan guards. Sure, Renna would have been upset, but I for one could have lived with Renna being upset. I think Ishy wanted to use Egwene to help get Rand to agree to end everything - so the goal wasn't a dead Egwene, but a suffering Egwene. 

And even then I don't think that Egwene held him off all that long. Of course, she was exhausted too, even if she managed to get a little bit of energy back after turning Renna into a damane. Her shield was visibly fraying until Perrin showed up with the Magic Shield. 

But holding Ishy off at all, still impressive.

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

So anyway, I'd be more than happy if they cut her from the triumvirate. I don't think they will. I still don't really see how they're going to set up all three girls being interested in him. Elayne may start season three pursuing him, but there's unlikely to be much time before Rand heads off to the Waste, where Aviendha will likely become his focus.

Aviendha hasn't officially met him yet, but she just got an awestruck look on her face this episode while looking up at him - and presumably Perrin will be making some introductions between seasons or at the start of season 3. And I'm assuming that Aviendha and Rand will spend at least some time together in the Aiel Waste next season, since supposedly we're getting The Shadow Rising, so.....that's a start. Rand and Elayne just got a moment, clearly coded romantically, so....that's also a start. 

That just leaves Min, and the reason I'm questioning this is because although she and Rand have interacted, that meeting wasn't coded romantically at all - unlike her first meeting with Mat, which was. And then, this season, although they were both in Cairhein and both in the Foregate, they never met or interacted.  And the show just eliminated the moment in The Great Hunt where Min finds a wounded Rand post-Falme and manages to get him into a bed - a moment sorta given to Mat, Elayne and Nynaeve here. Show Min was, as far as I know, still in Cairhein, with zero romantic coding between her and Rand so far. Zero.

It's not that I can't see possibilities here - Rand and Min are among the few characters who have knowingly agreed to work with the Forsaken while not turning into Darkfriends. And Rand probably has a lot more in common with Min than with a noblewoman and an Aiel. But - especially after that little Elayne scene, and after Rand killing off random extras just to rescue Egwene, precisely what Lanfear did last episode just to rescue Rand, I really have to wonder what the idea is here. They just showed that they can code a Romantic First Meeting, so the choice not to do so for Rand and Min is...interesting. 

Min was already going to be one of the hardest characters of the three to transform to screen anyway, especially given that she has considerably less to do, plotwise, than either Elayne or Aviendha, or really, any of the other main characters, and it's not clear to me how the show plans to utilize her after the Tower coup. For that matter, it's not clear to me that she'll even be involved in the Tower coup. Leaving me very unsure what, exactly, they are doing with the character.

[DoctorAtomic]

1 hour ago, quarks said:

And even then I don't think that Egwene held him off all that long. Of course, she was exhausted too, even if she managed to get a little bit of energy back after turning Renna into a damane. Her shield was visibly fraying until Perrin showed up with the Magic Shield. 

But holding Ishy off at all, still impressive.

That's what I'm saying. She held him off long enough for Elayne to heal him and Moiraine (which she didn't know) to break the shield. That's not nothing, and she wasn't full strength either. I don't know, to me, it looked like Ishamael was confused as to how she was doing it. First he was doing the fireballs, then he went to what looked like darts, almost like what Rand did to the Seanchan just shortly before. It wasn't working. He probably outlasts her, one on one. That didn't happen, and she's certainly not going to be cowering in another battle against the dark.

You also need to bookend that with Lolial's ridiculously motivational monologue - We are the heroes of the next Age. Act like it. 

Also all this foreshadowing of shielding is going to pay off big time. 

We don't have any Dragon Banner yet. 

[Megras]

It has been an age since I read the books and I may be misremembering but I thought Min wasn't all that interested in Rand but had a vision of them together (possibly with the other interests too) and sort just gave in to the vision as they always come true.

[quarks]

1 hour ago, Megras said:

It has been an age since I read the books and I may be misremembering but I thought Min wasn't all that interested in Rand but had a vision of them together (possibly with the other interests too) and sort just gave in to the vision as they always come true.

I just reread the end of The Great Hunt, where Min tells an unconscious Rand that she prefers older, experienced men, and that she doesn't even know if she will be the one that Rand chooses, and yet here she is.

She has several visions of Rand with three women, and she's one of them. We don't get to see her meet Elayne for the first time, but Elayne tells us that Min kinda immediately told Elayne that hey, you are going to have to share your husband, so my assumption always was that she'd either seen Elayne in one of those visions before they met, or the second she saw Elayne, she had a vision identifying Elayne as one of the other two.

In The Shadow Rising Min tells Siuan that she pretty much has no choice in the matter and the Pattern has kinda forced her to fall in love and that yeah, once she saw the vision, she knew, and she knew she couldn't change it. 

What irks me about this is that, honestly, Min and Rand on paper are not a bad pairing - the Dragon Reborn and the woman who has visions of his fate. In the first few books she was also a fairly grounded, cheerful person who helped keep Egwene grounded and still Egwene when Egwene was a damane. It's just that once they did get together, Min seemed to have very little to do other than get kidnapped until the very last book - and for reasons that, to be fair, have nothing to do with Min, I wasn't too thrilled with that, either.

[DoctorAtomic]

I take the point about Min, but I think she still has to be one of the three. That's a hard change from the books. I don't think you could swap her with Lanfear because Moiraine has to take her out for good. They're already laying the groundwork rather well already. 

 

[quarks]

Well, about Lanfear (end of series/Brandon Sanderson interview spoilers):

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson confirmed that Lanfear isn't dead; not only was she freed from the snakes and foxes; she faked her death in the end there and is still alive at the end of the series.

That said, the first part of that was a plot point I disliked, so I'll be fine if the show doesn't go there. 

In terms of Min - I tend to agree that swapping her out or eliminating her relationship with Rand would be a major change from the books - bigger than others we've seen. And we've just got a scene pretty much confirming Rand/Elayne, even though Rand spent less time with Elayne than with Min or Aviendha in the books.  So that suggests that the show will be sticking with Rand/Elayne/Aviendha/Min (and the showrunners more or less confirmed this in earlier interviews.)

Which just makes what they are doing with Min all the more strange to me.

 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

17 hours ago, quarks said:

Well, about Lanfear (end of series/Brandon Sanderson interview spoilers):

  Reveal spoiler

Brandon Sanderson confirmed that Lanfear isn't dead; not only was she freed from the snakes and foxes; she faked her death in the end there and is still alive at the end of the series.

That said, the first part of that was a plot point I disliked, so I'll be fine if the show doesn't go there.

The second part I liked, because if anyone would pull that off...

[Humbugged]

I am schocked by peoples dissopointment over Hoppers death is the series when in reality in the books he died in the first one and the did not have him on just to die  (that was his wife)

[Noneofyourbusiness]

6 hours ago, Humbugged said:

I am schocked by peoples dissopointment over Hoppers death is the series when in reality in the books he died in the first one and the did not have him on just to die  (that was his wife)

Hopefully they'll calm down when Hopper inevitably returns as Perrin's spirit mentor like in the books.

[DoctorAtomic]

I think it worked here on the show though because it gives us the struggle of Perrin being berserk v calm while also starting the vendetta the younger Bornhold will have against him. 

Just killed the older Bornhold in battle, ok, so he may want to avenge his father's death, but clearly, on the show, Perrin straight up murdered him while they all were fighting the Seanchan. And he used the axe here, which we all know is the big motif with Perrin.

Much clearer to show how it becomes personal for Bornhold. 

[Danny Franks]

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I think it worked here on the show though because it gives us the struggle of Perrin being berserk v calm while also starting the vendetta the younger Bornhold will have against him. 

Just killed the older Bornhold in battle, ok, so he may want to avenge his father's death, but clearly, on the show, Perrin straight up murdered him while they all were fighting the Seanchan. And he used the axe here, which we all know is the big motif with Perrin.

Much clearer to show how it becomes personal for Bornhold. 

In the books, it's Child Byar who survives, after being told to hang back, watch the battle and take word to the Lord Captain Commander. He's the one who tells Dain that Perrin was responsible for his father's death.

So it looks like they're combining Byar and Dain, by having Dain witness Perrin's actions and being more justified than he ever was in the books in persecuting him.

I like this version, because there's a very distinct, 'they could have been friends' tragedy to the whole thing. But now Dain has this hatred, which will be stoked by Valda and, I'm sure, by a certain pedlar who may meet up with them as they leave Falme, and tell them he knows all about the golden eyed man from the Two Rivers.

[DoctorAtomic]

I didn't even know he didn't see Perrin killing the father. This is way better then. Also, you can't really give Perrin a pass here. 

[RachelKM]

8 hours ago, Humbugged said:

I am schocked by peoples dissopointment over Hoppers death is the series when in reality in the books he died in the first one and the did not have him on just to die  (that was his wife)

For me, it isn't disappointment per se.  I would have known it was inevitable even without the books.  These shows (and books) love martyring wolves for some reason. I just hated seeing it. 

[Which Tyler]

I'm not quite sure where to put this, as it's about S02E08, but I think the 3 oaths are currently booktalk.

I've had a thought on Moiraine seemingly ignoring the oaths by using the One Power as a weapon to take out the ships.

How much does Moiraine know about what's going on at that moment?
How much does she know about the Seanchan? We know that Ishy is controlling Suroth, who's high up (but recently demoted), but does Moiraine know any of that? Does she know that they're anything beyond "the enemy"?

So from Moiraine's perspective, she sees a bunch of channellers on Seanchan ships weaving a shield up to the top of the tower.
Would it be reasonable for her to assume that "the enemy" are shielding... someone at the top of the tower?
Which would make it reasonable to conclude that there's an Aes Sedai up there, being shielded by the enemy.
So would "the last extreme defence of her life, the life of her Warder, or another Aes Sedai" kick in as an exemption?

 

Is that... reasonable?

 

ETA: Of course, somehow, and a bit later, she knows that A] Rand is up there, and that B] He's just done something worthy of being acclaimed as the dragon - all from a couple of miles away and with no line of sight to what was happening...

So we're back to being just the rule of cool.
:(

Edited November 27, 2023 by Which Tyler
2nd thoughts

[DoctorAtomic]

The oats allow you to use the power against 'enemy' channelers, and the Seanchan were using the power to assault Falme. She's within enough of a 'legal' area to use the power against them. I think you can make a case for her and Lan's own defense as well. 

The Oaths are broad at best and don't include anything for collateral damage. 

The point is that from her pov she believes in good faith that use of the power in this particular battle is warranted. Otherwise she wouldn't be able to do anything. 

 

[Which Tyler]

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

The oats allow you to use the power against 'enemy' channelers.

That's certainly not how I interpreted the oaths. If they do, then all is fair.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

8 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

The oats allow you to use the power against 'enemy' channelers,

6 hours ago, Which Tyler said:

That's certainly not how I interpreted the oaths. If they do, then all is fair.

They do not, unless in last defense of your own life, that of your Warder, or that of another Aes Sedai. The exception is for Shadowspawn and Darkfriends, not channelers as a whole.

[Which Tyler]

8 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

They do not, unless in last defense of your own life, that of your Warder, or that of another Aes Sedai. The exception is for Shadowspawn and Darkfriends, not channelers as a whole.

That was how I understood them, hence needing my slightly tortuous logic above.

[DoctorAtomic]

I mean, it's not like Moiraine can't rationalize that there's a bunch of people attacking them on the beach and seeing the power being used by the Seanchan to assault Falme that she's thinking using the power would be all right. Besides, she would be physically/mentally prohibited anyway. 

[Which Tyler]

17 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I mean, it's not like Moiraine can't rationalize that there's a bunch of people attacking them on the beach and seeing the power being used by the Seanchan to assault Falme that she's thinking using the power would be all right. Besides, she would be physically/mentally prohibited anyway. 

Yeah, she could absolutely use the power to attack the Seanchan attacking her and Lan on the beach - that would be fine "last defence of your own life, that of your Warder"

 

Stretching that so that, if you fear for your life, then you can attack whoever you want, even if they're a mile away, not threatening you at all, and unaware of your existence, is... not consistent with the oaths.

Yes, we're looking for the rationale for her being able to use the power as a weapon "because it looks cool" is not consistent with the oaths.

[DoctorAtomic]

I think the show has been fair in the use of the power so far for the Moiraine and all of them. It's going to get dicey with Darkfriends all over the place and the Foresaken out. 

I was talking before about the Oaths physically preventing them from channeling. They can't channel if they know they shouldn't be, but they're also good at rationalizing. 

[rab01]

I read the books only once and basically as they were coming out so I don't have a good memory of any of it.  Between that gap and the show's revisions, I'm pleasantly unable to predict what's going to happen in any particular episode.  Thank you all for reminding/teaching me about parts of the books that I missed or forgot.

For me, the show is in an enviable position in that Jordan created an interesting world, with some interesting characters and a LOT of scenes and plot points that would be cool to see on-screen but he marred many of his female characters with similar irritating ticks and descriptions of their physical attractiveness (so much that I suspected underlying author sexism, which was probably unfair to him) and he couldn't edit himself so the show has the unusual opportunity to improve on the source material.

After season 1, I thought that despite some good casting choices (perhaps other than Rand) they had missed that chance but season 2 was so much better.  (Also, the actor playing Rand has improved.)   

I do wonder whether the show works for someone who hasn't read any of WoT though ...

[Avaleigh]

So, I'm still getting through the Lord of Chaos. The story took awhile to get into, I have to admit. I actually read two other books because I felt like I needed a break from WoT. Anyway, I'm finally back into it and got to a very interesting development: Nynaeve figured out how to heal Logain and ended up healing Siuan and Leane too! 

So now I'm wondering what role Logain has to play now that he's been healed from his gentling. Is he going to team up with Rand? Will he end up on the farm? What will Taim make of him? I had a feeling there was going to be more with his character based on how he's been portrayed on the show, but I wasn't expecting this. I'm curious how powerful he is now considering Nynaeve said that she had difficulty holding him. 

Regarding Siuan and Leane (I can't recall if Leane is a character on the show), I wonder what this will mean for them going forward especially since they kind of gave Moiraine the storyline of an Aes Sedai losing her powers. Maybe Siuan won't be stilled on the show? 

Also, now that Nynaeve has learned how to do what no other Aes Sedai has been able to figure out, shouldn't that fast track her to being raised to full Aes Sedai? Is it really necessary for her to continue to have to scrub pots and pans at this point? Their organization really sucks at times. The Tower is fractured, they're lucky to have the people they do have on their side, but they persist in treating two of their most loyal and hardworking members like shit. Makes no sense.

I'm curious too if Nynaeve can heal women who have accidentally burned themselves out or can she only heal the ones who were stilled? Either way, she seems like she's on track to being the best healer they've ever seen.