Book to Show: Compare and Contrast

[DoctorAtomic]

16 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

I'm very curious to see how the show is going to tackle Lews being in Rand's head. Maybe they'll just have Lews almost like a ghost, standing next to Rand and saying stuff but Rand is the only one who sees him. I wonder about this because he's in Rand's head a lot at this point. I don't think a voiceover would work. Plus it'll help the audience get to know Lews better if we get to see him outside of Rand's head.

That's a good idea. Some random voice over is going to confuse everyone, even if those of us from the books know what's going on. That's a standard tv cheat too; I don't think it would be that jarring. 

 

[quarks]

They had voiceovers for Logain's voices in one episode, but....yeah, I think having Lews appear as a sorta ghost next to Rand is a much more effective solution.

Since Mazrim Taim has come up, my irritated vent, under spoiler tags because most of this is from later in the series and one of the companion books,  Origins of the Wheel of Time: The Legends and Mythologies That Inspired Robert Jordan.  (I know Brandon Sanderson has also discussed this casually with several people, but I can't recall offhand if it's in any of his official interviews available online.)

Spoiler

As it turns out, originally, and by "originally" I mean while Robert Jordan was writing The Fires of Heaven and Lord of Chaos, Mazrim Taim was Demandred - and the person who killed Asmodean, specifically so that Asmodean would not be able to identify him when Demandred/Taim showed up to meet Rand.

When fans guessed this, Jordan decided this was too obvious, so decided that since he hadn't absolutely stated this outright in the book, he would change it.  Which then left the major question of what on earth Demandred had been doing during the entire series. Sanderson came up with "he was over in Shara," and, you know, this works, but it kinda aggravates me that the response to "oooh, fans solved one of the mysteries in the book," was to change the solution to the mystery. Grr.

 

[DoctorAtomic]

I haven't read Origins yet. That's on my kindle list soon. 

Taim

Spoiler

I had heard that years ago about Taim = Demandred, which made perfect sense. So what if everyone found it out? You know who the murderer is, but the characters on the show don't, so it's still suspenseful watching them figure it out. 

All of a sudden in the Last Battle Demandred shows up and it was one of the many things I didn't like about the whole battle. Give me a break. 

How much did it drive you up the wall when Jordan would be all 'rafo! about Asmodean?' It wasn't obvious, it clearly was forced, and I wasn't going back over a thousand pages to see it all set up. Because it wasn't. 

Of course, present day channelers going over to the Shadow is entirely reasonable, and Taim going over because he's just a pissy bitch is as good a reason as any. 

I'm with you though. It's like in Galactica when there were 12 models, and then the show got really famous, so RDM was like, 'oh damn, I need 7 *more* new actors to introduce?' Not going to happen. Let's just make the character you know to be Cylons.

Jordan backed himself into a corner with the 13 of them because we wasted so much time on like half of them, and one of the biggest of the last age, Demandred, just is off screen for literally over 20 years. 

 

[quarks]

DoctorAtomic (still under spoilers for plot reveals)

Spoiler

That RAFO about Asmodean, seemed, even at the time, completely unnecessary - we were, after all, not talking about future events like "Who is Rand going to end up with?" or "Is Egwene going to be able to reunite the Tower?"  It was a kinda simple thing - a number of fans had guessed either Demandred or Graendel, and, hey, both were right at one point.

I figured there had to be some sort of plot thing that would explain why Jordan was so reluctant to confirm our guesses - one of them having some sort of secret identity (which worked with the Demandred being Taim thing) or a secret weapon/skill (which I thought might be Travelling, but since that was kinda already discovered in the previous books, didn't make much sense).

And yet - nope. And then to find out that he told us we could absolutely, positively figure out the identity of the murderer from The Fires of Heaven alone, only to later change the identity of the murderer, something that was only possible with more than one potential murderer based on The Fires of Heaven alone.

Grr. 

 

[DoctorAtomic]

Spoiler

tbh, it was so dumb and minor that I didn't really care. Just take the fairly justified criticism. If you're asking your fans to pay careful attention and invest decades, then you need to hold up your end, and take it when you're rightfully called out.

 

 

[Avaleigh]

So we're getting more of Mat's memories from other men. I wonder how the show is going to handle that because it's all in his head and so far there isn't anything the show absolutely needs to show. At the same time he basically turns into the greatest general who ever lived overnight, so I suppose they're going to have to show some memories to explain this?

In a way, Mat and Rand are in similar positions as far as having the memories of another person in their head. In Rand's case it's just the vague memories of one guy and I'm still unsure how complete the memories are. It's more like he has a voice in his head and occasionally has these flashes of memory. With Mat, the memories seem much more complete and they're basically thousands of years worth and from multiple people. 

I did like Mat saving that kid Olver. I know Mat wouldn't exactly be the best guardian but it would be kind of cool if he could let this kid work in his service somehow. As a squire or something like that.

I finally got a Sammael POV. His chapter might have been my favorite so far. Dude has a problem with his height and is *very* angry about it, lol. (If the Dark One can change people's appearance, why can't he change Sammael's height if it's such an issue for him? Or does he think a Sammael who is permanently angry about his height is a more effective ally to have?) I guess Graendal knows exactly how to get under his skin.

So basically the Forsaken are fighting their own little Game of Thrones to see which one will win the position of Nae'blis? Sammael thinks that Rand is a contender and that's a callback to the first or second book when the Dark One tried to persuade Rand to play for his team. 

I think I initially thought that the Forsaken were mostly on the same side even if they didn't necessarily like each other, but they seem like they all really hate each other. Moghedien is in hiding a lot of the time. Graendal holds everyone in contempt. Lanfear was up to her own game and just wanted to rule the world with Lews/Rand. Sammael wants to make sure he's Nae'blis and is apparently intent on killing Lanfear if they ever cross paths again. These people are petty, backstabbers. The Dark One sure can pick 'em. 

I did think it was interesting when Sammael thought about how Ishmael believes that the battle between Rand and the Dark One is one battle of many and basically suggests that there were other people in the past who were in the position of Lews and Rand. It makes me wonder if Lews had the memories of the person before him. Also, has there ever been a female Dragon? It seems to me that given the way the True Source works you think it would be effective to have one man and one woman fight against the Dark One together. 

[SVNBob]

52 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

I did think it was interesting when Sammael thought about how Ishmael believes that the battle between Rand and the Dark One is one battle of many and basically suggests that there were other people in the past who were in the position of Lews and Rand.

“The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again.”

or

“As the Wheel of Time turns, places wear many names. Men wear many names, many faces. Different faces, but always the same man. Yet no one knows the Great Pattern the Wheel weaves, or even the Pattern of an Age. We can only watch, and study, and hope.”

[DoctorAtomic]

1 hour ago, Avaleigh said:

So we're getting more of Mat's memories from other men. I wonder how the show is going to handle that because it's all in his head and so far there isn't anything the show absolutely needs to show. At the same time he basically turns into the greatest general who ever lived overnight, so I suppose they're going to have to show some memories to explain this?

They could probably just limit it to three or four recurring figures for the 'memories'. 

It's both good and bad that the Foresaken are so petty. They were all diesel channelers. You have to wonder if they already had massive egos or if all that power begat that. They made it easy for the Dark One to turn them. 

I always liked the philosophy of the Wheel - Rand and Ish fighting it out over and over. This isn't a spoiler, but the books never went nearly as far into it at I would have liked. I really hope the show gets more into this. 

As far as we know, the Dragon has always been male. Don't forget though, this is the only time saidan has been tainted. Rand doesn't know if the memories are a product of the taint and him going nuts or not. 

With everything being destroyed in the last battle, and the taint, there was no continuity of knowledge. Rand is the Dragon. He has to figure out a way to channel. That has to manifest somehow. 

 

[Avaleigh]

7 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

It's both good and bad that the Foresaken are so petty. They were all diesel channelers. You have to wonder if they already had massive egos or if all that power begat that. They made it easy for the Dark One to turn them. 

I probably should have finished the chapter I was on before posting because Graendal just revealed that Semirhage, Demandred and Mesaana are all working together and that Mesaana is somewhere in the White Tower. Graendal says that they're each probably secretly working against each other, but to me it makes sense that at least a few Forsaken would see the sense in forming an alliance. 

Interesting that Semirhage is the only one of them who knows how to heal wounds. (Graendal says that Semirhage is the only one who would be able to heal Sammael's face.) I wonder what Graendal's occupation was before she got locked away with the others?

Finished the POV of Semirhage. She actually might be the worst of the Forsaken in terms of being the most evil and that's a pretty high bar. I don't have a list of their deeds in front of me, so I could always change my mind but either way she is seriously sick. 

She basically had a reputation for being able to save almost anyone, but the price of that in her mind was to torture them first? Any normal person would feel good about being able to save so many lives, but she can only feel good about it if she causes pain first. Then she tries to justify it in her head by saying that the people are still grateful to be alive, but she ignores the fact that she's psychologically damaged these people for life. Her arrogance is pretty astonishing. 

[DoctorAtomic]

Alliances of convenience though aren't really 'working together' though. 

They all think they're going to be Naeblis. 

[Danny Franks]

17 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Finished the POV of Semirhage. She actually might be the worst of the Forsaken in terms of being the most evil and that's a pretty high bar. I don't have a list of their deeds in front of me, so I could always change my mind but either way she is seriously sick. 

Each of the Forsaken has their own foibles and particular evil tendencies, but Semirhage is perhaps the most unnerving. She's the sadist who has turned torture into a clinical process of seeing what people can endure and then pushing them as far past it as she can. It's not like she even seems to enjoy seeing people suffer that much, she just enjoys the scientific process of administering as much pain as she can.

I don't know if RJ ever spoke about where his ideas for the different Forsaken came from, but Semirhage reminds me a lot of those Nazi scientists who did unspeakable things to concentration camp prisoners in the name of science.

 

[DoctorAtomic]

We talked about downselecting the Forsaken before. If they do, I would like the show maybe to give us something on how they all turned. The books really don't flesh them out much. 

[Avaleigh]

On 8/30/2023 at 7:12 AM, DoctorAtomic said:

Alliances of convenience though aren't really 'working together' though. 

They all think they're going to be Naeblis. 

Fair point. Maybe a better way to put it is they have an understanding and will use it to their advantage until it's no longer worthwhile?

Regarding who will be Naeblis--I figure the Dark One is playing them all and doesn't really intend for any of them to get it. He's just knows they need some kind of carrot on a stick to keep them motivated. 

It's funny how annoyed Nynaeve is with the Aes Sedai who don't listen to instructions with Teleranrhiod when she so recently needed to be given a lesson about the danger of nightmares. At least Nynaeve learned her lesson. I'm not sure if the others will. 

22 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

I don't know if RJ ever spoke about where his ideas for the different Forsaken came from, but Semirhage reminds me a lot of those Nazi scientists who did unspeakable things to concentration camp prisoners in the name of science.

I thought of the same thing. She seems like she wants to be a cruel god. She really bristled at the memory of being disciplined. Why on earth would those in charge give her the option of being severed? They shouldn't have given her any choice. She should have been permanently stopped immediately. 

 

[quarks]

After watching some of the promos/upcoming scenes, one thing that I'm really hoping the show will do at some point - not necessarily this season -  is flesh out the relationship/potential friendship between Min and Aviendha, which I thought got really shortchanged in the books. We did get Min and Elayne, and Aviendha and Elayne, but not the third.

I know the showrunners said prior to the first season that they would be exploring a poly/romantic situation between Rand's women as well, so....I guess we'll see?

[DoctorAtomic]

30 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

Fair point. Maybe a better way to put it is they have an understanding and will use it to their advantage until it's no longer worthwhile?

You quite accurately pointed out that they're all basically Game of Thrones. 

31 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

Why on earth would those in charge give her the option of being severed? They shouldn't have given her any choice. She should have been permanently stopped immediately. 

You have to remember before anyone turned Foresaken or before the Bore for that matter, it was thousands of years of peace. You're going to lose your cynicism. Additionally, these people knew each other for several hundred years. There wasn't an oath rod back then to limit their age. You're going to lean to giving them another shot. 

 

[DoctorAtomic]

Mat wasn't held captive by the Reds, right? I don't remember much of the beginning of the Great Hunt. I only remember Egw and Ny were dragging Mat to Falme while he was knocked out from the dagger. Granted, that doesn't make for compelling television, and I know they had the recasting. 

[Humbugged]

3 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Mat wasn't held captive by the Reds, right? I don't remember much of the beginning of the Great Hunt. I only remember Egw and Ny were dragging Mat to Falme while he was knocked out from the dagger. Granted, that doesn't make for compelling television, and I know they had the recasting. 

That is book 3 you are thinking of . At the start of Great Hunt  all 5 are in Fal Dara

[Danny Franks]

10 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Mat wasn't held captive by the Reds, right? I don't remember much of the beginning of the Great Hunt. I only remember Egw and Ny were dragging Mat to Falme while he was knocked out from the dagger. Granted, that doesn't make for compelling television, and I know they had the recasting. 

No, Mat was never captured by Aes Sedai. This was likely an idea developed late in the day, after they lost Mat for the last two episodes of season one, but I think it works for his character - we know that Mat can't stand Aes Sedai in the books, to the extent that one of his wishes in the Rhuidean archway is to be free of them. He hates the One Power being used on him, he hates feeling manipulated and misled by Moiraine.

Mat doesn't really become Mat until midway through book three. At least, not the Mat that so many readers talk about. He's sullen and paranoid and self-centred, until the dagger's influence is completely removed. I don't think the producers of the show wanted two whole seasons of that Mat.

[DoctorAtomic]

I don't remember much before Tear. 

It's a good idea for the TV show given what happened with the actor just leaving. But they're going to need to deal with this dagger plot sooner than later. 

[SueB]

Seems there is no limit on book plot va show so here’s my review of the changes thus far (note, including looking at the bonus content as it helps a lot). 
 

Obvious they have to skip much to progress thru within a reasonable time and money budget.  So, I assume these changes are to hit certain ‘beats’ but not because they have a different visions. 
 

Rand story changes:
- Sleeping with Selene - tracks with the age-up and the emotional connection
- New story to show he is trying to learn and seeks Logain for that.  Works for me.  And showed the corruption in Cairhein.  Rand is already at the plotting stage of character but I’ll accept it.  Loved his look in Red

Perrin story changes:
- Happy so far. He’s carrying the original main plot.  
- They killed Uno (you bastard!) to make us terrified of the Seanchan.  Well, it worked. 

Mat story changes:
- Is he cured or not? I’m going to guess yes because that moment when Liandrin walks into his bed chamber is reminiscent of the Amyrlin doing so. 
- Where is his LUCK?!?!  That was a key plot point for him departing the tower. I’m unhappy that hasn’t manifested.  Perrin and Rand have, but not Mat. 
- Pairing with Min is good.  Vision of him killing Rand is bad. 

Egwene & Nynaeve & Elayne
- Most consistent with the book.  Happy so far. 

Lan & Moraine:
- I cannot tell where they are going.  It feels way to early for her to be without powers and sending Lan away.  
- This is the story I’m most frustrated with as her losing power is about 8 books early.  
- I hope she catches up with Rand soon. 
- Lan is just ‘lost’ to me.  He’s such a great character - where is his teaching of the sword to Rand?   I miss that terribly.  
 

Bottom line: okay so far but I need three things pinned down quickly:

1) Mat’s luck and tie to the Horn
2) How Moraine connects back to Rand
3) Lan’s path - who is he going to team with?!!?!

I worry they will undermine Mat and Lan - two favorite characters.  I’m hoping that resolves soon.  

[DoctorAtomic]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

He’s such a great character - where is his teaching of the sword to Rand?   I miss that terribly.

This is really a huge plot development. Rand 'earning' the heron and flat out beating the Seanchan was a very big deal. With Rand having zero handle on channeling and not knowing if he's the Dragon or not, relying on tangible, real skills gives him self-confidence. I hope they don't cut it out. I mean, this doesn't have to happen for a while, really. 

On the other hand, seeking out Logain to learn to channel makes sense for tv because we know how important Logain is later on. Just having him show up and taking up the Callandor like 5 years later or so kind of comes out of nowhere. This way, he's around and has a purpose to the story, so when he does, it will be a more organic development. Also, maybe that means we don't get Asmodean. We already talked about merging/dropping some of the Foresaken, and this is an easy out. 

I'm not really complaining about the changes. For one, the show had to deal with Mat, so they needed a plot to sideline him, and, like I said, lugging him to Falme isn't particularly interesting. Separating the group is a typical, and not bad television move, but from just the first episode, they seem to be keeping all the balls in the air. Clearly, we have to have Mat blowing the Horn at Falme. So they're going to have to come together at some point. Maybe Lan being sent off gets him to them and he trains Rand. 

Where was Mat being held? Was it in the Tower? I didn't get that when I watched. 

Rand banging Selene (I only saw in the trailer) seems fine to me because we all know he chokes it when he should have killed her and cost Moraine years on the sideline. So him hesitating now in the show has some justification for it. That's going to be weird if they actually get to that given that Mo clearly billed as the main character. Maybe they'll make her search quicker. 

I only watched episode 1, but I saw the trailer. I'll probably watch at least one more tonight. 

Frankly, the books aren't that good and would have benefited from serious editing anyway. I'll give Jordan enormous credit for the scientific-physics based methodology behind channeling and the cyclical nature of the world, but after Rhuidean, the next 5 books were like 6 weeks time, and it really dragged until the other author took over.

So I'm typically in favor of the show making some changes. 

[Danny Franks]

Episode 2:

Elayne is the Elayniest Elayne that ever Elayned. Did they somehow drag her from the pages of the books? I can't wait to see her and Nynaeve travelling together, like the ultimate odd couple.

Selene is wonderful. How do you cast "the most beautiful woman in the world?" I don't know. But you can cast an incredibly beautiful actress and let her get her sexy on. Not many men would be able to resist her. When her lover left she was "shattered"? Yeah, that's kind of an understatement, Mierin.

I feel like Liandrin is going to be the show's stand in for a few different Black Ajah characters - Alviarin in particular. The depth they're giving her is fascinating, and Kate Fleetwood is killing it.

Mat and Min making friends is something totally unexpected. The two of them never actually conversed in the books. Not once in the entire series. But their scenes together were fun.

[DoctorAtomic]

Same thing with the Foresaken. You probably have to smoosh a lot of the Black Ajah together too. 

In the opener, when the little girl went under the table, one of those seated was Aes Sedai. 

[quarks]

I gotta say, I really love what they are doing with Liandrin here.  In the books, she is just a two dimensional character, who only stands out for being pouty and evil - to the point where it makes no sense for the Supergirls to follow her anywhere.

Here, though, admittedly because she seems to be playing a composite of Liandrin/Alviarin/Galina, with an in-show humanizing element, she's mesmerizing. I suppose there's also a touch of Elaida, who we haven't seen yet, but show Liandrin appears to be considerably more intelligent and manipulative than Elaida ever was, and I'm fairly sure that show Liandrin is Black Ajah, especially after that whole reveal that show Liandrin got a novice killed. But a Black Ajah with a heart. Like a certain other character that I won't mention since Avaleigh isn't there yet. I was figuring that I would be cheering on painful deaths for all of the Black Ajah characters, but I'm finding myself hoping that this Liandrin makes it to the series finale.

I'm also totally in favor of combining Verin with [CHECKS COMPANION BOOK AGAIN] Green Ajah Vandene, and apparently switching Adeleas from [CHECKS COMPANION BOOK AGAIN] from Brown Ajah to Green Ajah, largely because, hey, I am all in favor of dropping any character that I need the Companion book to remember. 

And even a couple of characters I do remember - I totally approve of combining Hurin and Elias into a composite character here. Let's limit the number of minor characters, especially when the composites are as effective as Elias has been so far in the show.  

Though that said, one of the smaller roles here I really enjoyed was Lindsey Duncan - who I thought was playing one of the Cairheiren nobles we meet later in the books, but as per Amazon/IMDB/the Companion volume is playing Moiraine's sister, and again, yay for Companion volumes because I did not recognize the name, and did not remember that Moraine had sisters. So, yay for at least some characters I didn't remember.

And wow, the Seanchan feel much more terrifying/terrible on screen than they did in the books - and they were pretty terrible in the books! I think it's the combination of the gags on the damane, the way they killed Uno, and the way High Lady Suroth uses her fingernails. And of course the way we can see Ishamael right there with them. Gulp. 

[DoctorAtomic]

Another good choice for TV is making Verin more active so early on. I liked her talking to Mo and saying that basically the whole Aes Sedai will tell the Dragon what to do and how to win the last battle isn't going to work. To be fair, I don't think Mo ever thought that. She probably preferred him not being revealed for a whole lot longer. 

It seems like Rand will be learning the sword but not from Lan right now. 

1 hour ago, quarks said:

I gotta say, I really love what they are doing with Liandrin here.  In the books, she is just a two dimensional character, who only stands out for being pouty and evil - to the point where it makes no sense for the Supergirls to follow her anywhere.

Here, though, admittedly because she seems to be playing a composite of Liandrin/Alviarin/Galina, with an in-show humanizing element, she's mesmerizing. I suppose there's also a touch of Elaida, who we haven't seen yet, but show Liandrin appears to be considerably more intelligent and manipulative than Elaida ever was, and I'm fairly sure that show Liandrin is Black Ajah, especially after that whole reveal that show Liandrin got a novice killed. But a Black Ajah with a heart. Like a certain other character that I won't mention since Avaleigh isn't there yet. I was figuring that I would be cheering on painful deaths for all of the Black Ajah characters, but I'm finding myself hoping that this Liandrin makes it to the series finale.

There were like a million characters and maybe 7 or 12 with actual depth in the book. 

Liandrin and Ny interacting is really compelling because we know she's trying to turn Ny on the show. Liandrin would never accept a male Dragon. Which I think will pay off since Rand is even more than Ny. 

Similarly, keeping Mat captive seems like a good choice because there is resentment that justifies him asking for the medallion. 

5 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Selene is wonderful. How do you cast "the most beautiful woman in the world?" I don't know. But you can cast an incredibly beautiful actress and let her get her sexy on. Not many men would be able to resist her. When her lover left she was "shattered"? Yeah, that's kind of an understatement, Mierin.

Too bad for the non bookers who missed those massive anvils. 

I don't recall in the books Mo saying explicitly her loyalty was only to the Dragon. That's huge. 

[DoctorAtomic]

I'm thinking if the Tower finds out that Li has a son who is a senior citizen and she looks like she's in her 40s, that they'll figure out she's Black Ajah and was freed from the Oath Rod. 

If I'm right, that's clever of the show to tip us off. 

We already saw in the first episode that there was an Aes Sedai at the Ish meeting, confirming to us that the Black Ajah is in the show. 

[DoctorAtomic]

Was Ish in cahoots with the Seanchan this early on? I think who they are could be confusing to the non bookers. 

Does Liandrin know that Mat is taveran? 

[Danny Franks]

25 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Was Ish in cahoots with the Seanchan this early on? I think who they are could be confusing to the non bookers. 

He wasn't directly in cahoots, but we found out that Liandrin and Suroth were in cahoots, coordinated by some Forsaken or other, to deliver Nynaeve and Egwene to become damane.

25 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Does Liandrin know that Mat is taveran? 

I don't think so. I'm not sure what she knows about him, other than his links to whatever Moiraine is planning.

I really liked Ishy speaking to Perrin and reinforcing his fears of becoming a wolf. He's the Father of Lies, and he knows exactly how to press the right buttons.

That was definitely Selene infiltrating Rand's dream - she was so very Lanfear-like and her encouraging him to "let go" and "show me" was surely about trying to get him to embrace who he is.

[DoctorAtomic]

It's probably better to have Ish taking a more prominent role at this stage of the show. I'm hoping they pare back on the sheer amount of characters. Ish can Travel, so being all over the place isn't really an issue. 

[quarks]

I'm also guessing that for the sake of not completely confusing the TV audience, we're probably only going to get one, maybe two new Forsaken each season. Season 1 was Ishmael. This season is clearly Lanfear. Not to say that we won't see one or two others - maybe Asmodean, maybe Moghedien, maybe Sammael, maybe Rahvin, but I don't think the show needs to introduce Semirhage yet, given that most of what she actually does is much later in the plot line. 

So having Ishamael with the Seanchan instead of Semirhage makes sense at this point from a TV standpoint, while hammering in the fact that the Forsaken are sliding into high positions of power in various locations. I think it works. 

[DoctorAtomic]

Does the show even need Asmodean if Rand might be learning from Logain? Maybe he's lucid if he's on the sauce. We know how important he is later on, so cultivating this relationship on the show makes a lot more sense. 

If you pitched a script at how Asmodean got whacked based on the books, they'd throw you out the room. I think with how heavy the Aiel lore is when they're all in Rhudien is going to take up a lot of screen time. Throwing Asmodean into it is just a lot. 

[quarks]

21 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Does the show even need Asmodean if Rand might be learning from Logain? Maybe he's lucid if he's on the sauce. We know how important he is later on, so cultivating this relationship on the show makes a lot more sense. 

If you pitched a script at how Asmodean got whacked based on the books, they'd throw you out the room. I think with how heavy the Aiel lore is when they're all in Rhudien is going to take up a lot of screen time. Throwing Asmodean into it is just a lot. 

Since my last post kinda speculating on this, I've seen more theories suggesting that the show will have just eight of the Forsaken, to match the number of Forsaken statues seen in season 1. Based on where we are now (season 2, episode 3), we have:

1. Ishamael

2. Lanfear

.....and now that the givens are out of the way, the guesses:

3. Moghedien (with all the focus on Nynaeve, I think she has to show up)

4. Semirhage (because, hey, she's Semirhage)

5. Sammael (who does a lot of the mid-series evil plotting)

Everyone else I'm unsure about. I originally figured Asmodean had to be in this - and others have pointed out that one of those Forsaken statues is carrying a guitar - but as you correctly point out, Rand now has someone else who could possibly train him. And Mazrim Taim was mentioned in season 2, episode 2, so....two someone elses. Three someone elses if Ishamael decides to be helpful. Which, assuming that his motivation here is the same as the one in the books, Ishamael....might actually do. 

So Asmodean = ?

I also originally figured that Mesaana would be in this, but....people on this thread convinced me otherwise, and show Liandrin is doing such a great job of sowing division in the White Tower that I'm increasingly feeling that Mesaana doesn't need to be in this. I'm also not 100% sure that the show needs Graendel - I mean, I think she's a great villain, but that's basically two Forsaken using sex/seduction for power, and the show does seem to be trying to consolidate characters who do similar things, suggesting that the show might just consolidate Lanfear and Graendal.

So Mesaana = ?

Graendal = ?

Bringing us to:

Rahvin. It's not clear to me how much time the show is going to spend in Andor - Elayne has shown up, but no hints of Morgase, Gawyn, Galad, Elaida or Gareth Byrne yet. On the other hand, Rahvin is the one who gets Rand to use balefire, which seems to be one of those things that the show would want to use. On the other other hand, I....kinda think we've already had far too many fakeout deaths, and I'm not sure the show should add Mat and Aviendha to that.

So Rahvin = ?

Demandred = is pretty cool! Is also for the most part not in the series that much! So, Demandred = ?

(I admit that a small part of me is hoping that show Demandred ends up being Mazrim Taim. But just a small part.)

Aginor = did not appear in season 1, suggesting the show means to leave him out completely.

Balthamel = My inclinations, and I suspect Amazon's inclinations, would be to leave him out entirely, avoiding a number of headaches. And since he didn't appear in season 1, I suspect that's exactly what's happening.

Bel'al = Barely in the books. Not sure why he would be in the show. 

So....if the fan theory that the show will have 8 Forsaken ends up being true, and if I'm correct that Aginor, Balthamel and Bel'al will be left out completely, that means that the show presumably will be picking from three of the remaining five Forsaken: Mesaana, Graendal, Rahvin, Demandred and Asmodean. I'd say the odds just might be in favor of Asmodean showing up.

Maybe.

 

[DoctorAtomic]

Who gets Rand to pick up Callandor? You could have Ish just be in that scene. 

Rand needs to lose the hand, but Semirage could do it easily. 

I think you need Demandred because of the end with Lan, but if that's all they show than viewers are going to call foul. Making him Taim is going to kill purists, but I don't care. 

I think that's all you need. 

[quarks]

Any of them could get Rand to pick up Callandor, really. If that happens this season - and it might; supposedly this season is books two and three and next season starts getting into book four - then it easily could be Ishamael, or even Lanfear.

If it happens next season - and again, it might - it could be Ishamael or Lanfear, or Rahvin (if they get into the Andor plot), or any of the others, if only to introduce them to the audience.

I do think that the show either needs Moghedien or needs to let Nynaeve take out Semirhage. They need some sort of payoff for this "strongest channeler in 1000 years" stuff.

[Avaleigh]

I'm enjoying the show (still haven't seen the third episode yet), but I have to admit that I'm not really feeling Moiraine's storyline. I love Rosamund Pike and she's the reason I was interested in giving the books a try because I was intrigued by her performance in the first season, but I'm struggling with why the writers chose to cut her off from the source. I'm 20% in with book 6 and there isn't anything that happened in the books that explains to me why they're giving her this story line. 

It's like they decided to blend Moiraine's storyline with Siuan Sanche's and since Siuan is a character on the show I don't get why they're doing this? Won't it feel like a retread once Siuan and Leane are stilled? Is that not going to happen now in the show? 

I'm mostly happy with the other changes. I really like what they're doing with Liandrin. She's much more interesting in the show than in the books. I'm curious which Forsaken she'll end up interacting with on the show.

Also, I noticed in one of the threads that said the Aes Sedai were present for that opening scene with Ishamael. I completely missed that. I just noticed Padan Fain and everyone else I thought was cloaked. Was it an Aes Sedai we've already met on the show? Glad to know they're keeping the Black Ajah. 

I kind of hate the Seanchan but they do look pretty badass on the show. Kudos to the costume department. They've certainly stepped it up since last season. 

I love the Elayne actress. I can't wait to see her friendships with the others develop.

[DoctorAtomic]

When the little girl was crawling under the table they showed some sigils people were wearing and one of them had on the Aes Sedai ring. 

Watch the behind the scenes. They specifically point it out. 

4 hours ago, quarks said:

They need some sort of payoff for this "strongest channeler in 1000 years" stuff.

Right now she can't really weave anything, so I'm sure it will come. She needs to cleanse the taint, but that takes massive skill. 

I think we need to have someone stilled because we have to show

Spoiler

that the stilling and gentling can be healed. 

 

[quarks]

1 hour ago, Avaleigh said:

Also, I noticed in one of the threads that said the Aes Sedai were present for that opening scene with Ishamael. I completely missed that. I just noticed Padan Fain and everyone else I thought was cloaked. Was it an Aes Sedai we've already met on the show? Glad to know they're keeping the Black Ajah. 

 

Everyone was cloaked, but when the little girl went under the table she could see what some of the people were wearing under the cloaks - including one Aes Sedai ring.

I don't know if that was someone we already met on the show, or someone introduced this season. We have seen at least four characters on the show who are Black Ajah in the books - but I have no idea if any of those characters were in that scene, or if all four of those characters are all going to be Black Ajah in the show. I took it more as a sign to viewers that at least some of the Aes Sedai are either working with Ishamael or directly under his mental control, without necessarily identifying which one.

[Humbugged]

On 9/2/2023 at 2:36 PM, Danny Franks said:

No, Mat was never captured by Aes Sedai. This was likely an idea developed late in the day, after they lost Mat for the last two episodes of season one, but I think it works for his character - we know that Mat can't stand Aes Sedai in the books, to the extent that one of his wishes in the Rhuidean archway is to be free of them. He hates the One Power being used on him, he hates feeling manipulated and misled by Moiraine.

Mat doesn't really become Mat until midway through book three. At least, not the Mat that so many readers talk about. He's sullen and paranoid and self-centred, until the dagger's influence is completely removed. I don't think the producers of the show wanted two whole seasons of that Mat.

And then his sisters could channel and he married a woman who could but refuses

On 9/2/2023 at 10:37 PM, Danny Franks said:

Episode 2:

Elayne is the Elayniest Elayne that ever Elayned. Did they somehow drag her from the pages of the books? I can't wait to see her and Nynaeve travelling together, like the ultimate odd couple.

Selene is wonderful. How do you cast "the most beautiful woman in the world?" I don't know. But you can cast an incredibly beautiful actress and let her get her sexy on. Not many men would be able to resist her. When her lover left she was "shattered"? Yeah, that's kind of an understatement, Mierin.

I feel like Liandrin is going to be the show's stand in for a few different Black Ajah characters - Alviarin in particular. The depth they're giving her is fascinating, and Kate Fleetwood is killing it.

Mat and Min making friends is something totally unexpected. The two of them never actually conversed in the books. Not once in the entire series. But their scenes together were fun.

The 2 of them were going to be the leads in the Outrigger books after Mat dropped her in it by telling Tuon what she could do and she was Tuon's mouth and Doomseer

[quarks]

So, this Min and Ishamael thing -

I was initially skeptical, but the more I think about it, the more I think it works. I mean, I like Book Min, but Book Min basically spent the first couple of books making weird predictions, keeping Egwene cheered up during the damane stuff, and letting Nynaeve and Elayne know where Egwene was, before mostly vanishing from the scene for a couple of books, reappearing to help Siuan and Leane escape the Tower, briefly joining the rebels, then heading out to mostly stay by Rand and just...see visions for him until

Spoiler

finally - finally - helping to save Tuon of all people and becoming an honorary Seanchan.

the final book, and even then.

Meanwhile, Elayne and Aviendha are out on their own doing various adventures,

Spoiler

  taking down Black Ajah, finding/using the Bowl of the Winds, becoming Aes Sedai/Wise Ones, becoming first sisters, and leading armies/becoming the Queen of Andor. Until Min became Tuon's Doomseer, and even then

, it all felt very unequal. And although in some ways Min has a lot more in common with Rand than Aviendha or Elayne do (just to start with, they both grew up as basically normal, common people, not warriors-in-training or future queens), the whole Min not channeling thing and being miserable with her ability, instead of getting to have at least some joy from channeling, just increased that unequal feeling. She always felt to me like a supporting character, unlike main characters Aviendha and Elayne.

So this not only gives Min something to do, but also gives her another connection to Rand - she may not be able to channel, but, like Rand (and so far, at least, unlike Elayne or Aviendha), she's encountered and been emotionally manipulated by a Forsaken. I think this could help create a believable relationship in future seasons.

Edited September 8, 2023 by quarks
(realized I had a lot more book spoilers in this than I thought! sorry!)

[DoctorAtomic]

Is there a reason why the original Prologue wasn't shown yet, or do you think we'll get it at some point? 

I'm not clear on why they're bothering to age up Moiraine either. I guess that blows my theory about Liandrian having the son indicating she is free of the Oath Rod. 

I think we're clearer on no Asmodean if Moiraine is charging Logain to teach Rand. I think it's a good call since they've introduced him actively in the show so early, and I would assume the show is still planning on him being the 'one who follows after'. I still really want Rand to learn the sword though. 

I wonder that the show is communicating Tel'Aran'Rhiod to the nonbookers not so well. It has to be confusing. 

I don't know if it's the best move to establish that the Foresaken just can't be killed. I suppose it's a good workaround for the Dark One just bringing them back because you probably don't want the Dark One a recurring character on the show. 

We better get Moiraine beating Lanfear in the end though. I suppose this probably sets it up. Maybe a couple more straight up Moiraine outwitting Lanfear and Lanfear beating on her builds that up. 

8 hours ago, quarks said:

So this not only gives Min something to do, but also gives her another connection to Rand - she may not be able to channel, but, like Rand (and so far, at least, unlike Elayne or Aviendha), she's encountered and been emotionally manipulated by a Forsaken. I think this could help create a believable relationship in future seasons.

I remember being like, "oh yeah Min" when she popped up in the books. There's a ton of leeway at this point for her on the show. I really do hope the show expands on her role in delving into the philosophy of the Wheel discusses this more with Rand.

I can totally buy Min just being exhausted about being abused as a kid and turning to the dark for release from it. 

I'm guessing Ish is maybe trying to get Mat to Rand to make Min's vision come true, but doesn't know he's taveran. I bet that's when Mat's 'luck' kicks in. 

Edited September 9, 2023 by DoctorAtomic

[DoctorAtomic]

Quote

Honestly, Lanfear is a master manipulator. She played the absolute shit out of Rand, and I'm pretty sure she was going to bond him at the end.

From the episode thread.

Spoiler

Don't forget in the books that the Foresaken were surprised about the Warders and didn't know anything about the bonding. Lanfear wouldn't have known it. She would have likely tried to shield him because we know that can happen.

 

[quarks]

Speaking of the Forsaken, I had a wild and quite probably wrong thought:

Given that Asmodean:

1. Eventually becomes Rand's gleeman

2. Initially kinda sorta shows up in disguise with Lanfear, who is also in disguise

AND

Given that we:

1. Did see a gleeman telling us about the Hunt for the Horn, while 

2. Lanfear was still pretending to be Selene

Is it possible - is it at least barely possible - that we've already seen Asmodean in the show, and just didn't realize it?

 

[DoctorAtomic]

That's not wrong. 

I personally don't want him to be around because I thought his plot in the books was garbage, and I didn't like Jordan being so arrogant as to how "obvious" it was who whacked him. Because it wasn't, and it was poorly written. And you know what? You didn't have much after book five to get you till the Last Battle. 

The book series was basically Lost throwing everything to see what would stick from 5 to 12. 

The show did a big deal on what seems to me as Ish gets to decide which of the Foresaken get to come out next, and I don't think he'd pull out Asmodean at the same time. To also be fair to the show, they showed at the beginning that Ish pulled out Lanfear, so you'd think they would have shown him pulling out Asmodean. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 8/19/2023 at 2:41 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

I'm with you though. It's like in Galactica when there were 12 models, and then the show got really famous, so RDM was like, 'oh damn, I need 7 *more* new actors to introduce?' Not going to happen. Let's just make the character you know to be Cylons.

Five more. There were seven models already introduced at that point (Number Six - Tricia Helfer, Leoben - Callum Keith Rennie, Doral - Matthew Bennett, Sharon - Grace Park, Simon - Rick Worthy, D'Anna - Lucy Lawless, and Brother Cavil - Dean Stockwell). And it was more that RDM and the other Galactica writers realized they'd written themselves into a corner by having Number Six state at the outset that there were twelve humanoid Cylon models but only ever showing duplicates of those seven when we saw Cylons moving around on Cylon-Occupied Caprica and New Caprica, so why were the other five that hadn't been revealed yet always conveniently offscreen unless there was something different about them?

And while the Significant Seven/Final Five mythology was then shoehorned in a bit awkwardly, it would've been narratively unsatisfying if the super secret Final Five had turned out to be random nobodies who'd had no impact on the plot up till then and had just been chilling somewhere in the Fleet doing nothing either good or bad during the first three seasons. So they made five recurring-but-not-too-important characters who were originally supposed to be human the Final Five.

On 8/29/2023 at 11:08 PM, Avaleigh said:

Interesting that Semirhage is the only one of them who knows how to heal wounds. (Graendal says that Semirhage is the only one who would be able to heal Sammael's face.)

Basic healing of fresh wounds is an easy weave, it was Sammael's scar in particular that Graendal meant only Semirhage would be able to heal.

On 8/31/2023 at 3:50 PM, Avaleigh said:

Why on earth would those in charge give her the option of being severed? They shouldn't have given her any choice. She should have been permanently stopped immediately.

The Age of Legends seems to have had Star Trek Federation levels of niceness in its administration. They were really unprepared for something like the Dark One.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Avaleigh]

I'm kind of confused about the choice to have Moiraine slit Lanfear's throat. I was under the impression that the Forsaken are quasi-immortal but can still die. Sammael said something to that effect in the most recent conversation I read between him and Graendal. If an army showed up at her doorstep, there's a chance that somebody could get lucky and kill her because at the end of the day they're still in human bodies. Now, the Dark One could always bring them back as he's apparently done with two others (mentioned in the opening of the sixth book, the book I'm still currently reading), but they might not be in the bodies they want to be in and the Dark One might choose to not bring them back if he isn't in the mood, so why take the risk? (Or I could be misunderstanding all of this.) Now though it seems like Lanfear can apparently have her throat cut and be stabbed in the heart and she's just going to recover like it's no big thing.

Did the showrunners think this was the best way to demonstrate how scary and powerful the Forsaken are? 

One more question, I can't remember--has the show mentioned the existence of the Black Ajah? Do audiences know it's a thing to look for? 

[quarks]

As far as I can recall, the show hasn't mentioned the existence of the Black Ajah, but it's very possible that I missed something or I'm forgetting something.

In terms of "Wait, even slicing throats doesn't kill Forsaken," I can think of a number of reasons why the show might want to do this:

1. To make the Forsaken scarier (look, even getting their throats cut doesn't kill them!)

2. To avoid confusing the audience by having multiple Forsaken show up in different bodies.

3. To give us a quick and easy reason why all of them became Forsaken without having to waste time on what were, frankly, often unconvincing backstories (you became evil because you were told to become a teacher? But while I'm on that subject, exactly why was one of the world's most powerful channelers, and someone who turns out to have a genuine interest in research, unsuitable for a research position? I just feel some of the story is missing here.)

4. To avoid the entire Balthamel situation (I can't imagine that Amazon wants to deal with the fan response to this) and to a lesser degree a couple of things coming up with other Forsaken.

5. To make a certain scene that I'm hoping we're going to get in the series finale (assuming the show makes it there, and assuming the show leaves it in, which....ok, probably not all that likely but I'm going to continue to hope) all that much more awesome. 

[DoctorAtomic]

4 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I'm kind of confused about the choice to have Moiraine slit Lanfear's throat. I was under the impression that the Forsaken are quasi-immortal but can still die.

Lanfear is only mostly dead.

I think this is the way they're going to get around the whole resurrecting them because it would be too confusing on tv. It was too confusing in the books tbh. I also think the show is setting up Moiraine versus Lanfear for the doorway so it packs more of a tv punch. Balefire will still do the job though. I think it's fine because it means you really are going to have to up your channeling game to get rid of them. I mean, if you only have like 4 or 5 people that can legitimately kill Foresaken, they're going to be big shots. 

This isn't a spoiler, but by book 6, you have to know the Tower isn't going to be telling Rand what to do and basically executing the Last Battle like they thought they were. So on the show if we really only have 5 people that can kill Foresaken, you can forget about any planning, White Tower. 

One of the things I did like about the books, and I think my criticisms are fair, is that literally everyone pisses and moans constantly about everything. "Hey, this is literally the end of the world. I am the Dragon. Come on." And he gets nothing out of anyone except maybe Talmanes and Berelain.

Too bad sniffing didn't kill Forsaken. They'd be eviserated the second they walked out the Bore.

2 hours ago, quarks said:

As far as I can recall, the show hasn't mentioned the existence of the Black Ajah, but it's very possible that I missed something or I'm forgetting something.

In one of the behind the scenes, I think for 201, they show the table scene again and show the ring, and then the show guy says "The Black Ajah exists". I don't know if a non book viewer would know to look for the ring though. 

[Affogato]

I haven't read the books but I read this article. It talks about the differences in how gender roles (etc) are treated in the show/books. 

 

https://www.polygon.com/22828001/wheel-of-time-ge

[quarks]

42 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

 

In one of the behind the scenes, I think for 201, they show the table scene again and show the ring, and then the show guy says "The Black Ajah exists". I don't know if a non book viewer would know to look for the ring though. 

Oh, thanks! I remembered the ring, but I didn't watch the behind the scenes stuff.

[Avaleigh]

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

In one of the behind the scenes, I think for 201, they show the table scene again and show the ring, and then the show guy says "The Black Ajah exists". I don't know if a non book viewer would know to look for the ring though. 

Yes, it's only because of this forum that I even knew about that. I was just double checking to see if the Black Ajah had been mentioned by name because I didn't recall it ever being verbally introduced on the show.

Since the show is sort of having Elayne be the Hermione of all things Aes Sedai, maybe she'll be the one to bring up the Black Ajah for the first time. Since the Black Ajah isn't supposed to be talked about I can see how the Aes Sedai would refrain from mentioning it. A novice though like Elayne who will be wondering why Liandrin is doing this to them? I can see her openly wondering if Liandrin is a member of this Ajah that she wasn't really sure existed until now. 

Another thing I'm wondering--is Elaida going to be a character here? Are we going to get the court of Morgase this season? 

In other news, I just got to the part where Rand got bonded to an Aes Sedai! Kind of wrong that people can apparently be bonded against their will. Also interesting that another poster theorized in the thread that Lanfear might have been about to bond Rand before Moiraine cut her throat. If that was Lanfear's original plan (to make Rand her warder) you think she would have done that early on once she realized who Rand is. It makes me wonder why book Lanfear didn't bond him when she had the chance.