S02.E06: Sex and Candy

[Cristofle]

1 minute ago, Chick2Chic said:

Carina doesn't ever have to say anything, IMO. Look how quickly it's gone from "Poor Maria deserves more than to be marginalized or hated on [by stans, shippers, and racists]" to Maria being labeled devious or a bitch repeatedly over the threesome without pause. Carina's work is done with minimal effort. 

No, unfortunately, she doesn't, but it doesn't necessarily mean she won't. I think it kind of depends on if she refuses to ever acknowledge publicly this wasn't #woke (entirely likely) or if she decides to pretend she meant something different all along (probably not as likely but I've seen show runners completely redirect after backlash before). It won't happen this season regardless since it's already done, but if she decides next season to say "Hey, I always meant for this to be effed up!", then I think we all know who is going to take the hit for that. 

Who even knows, though. She's so fixated on Michael. I remember her saying on Twitter over the summer that Michael was going to challenge Max about healing his hand without permission since lack of consent and all, but that would look ridiculous now because Michael actively participated in bringing Max back from the dead despite being fully aware Max was literally begging them not to. And yet I would not put it past her to still have that scene coming, lol. It's probably most likely Maria and Alex will never be allowed any real POV that is anything less than being honored to have sex with Michael.

[Bloga]

17 minutes ago, amazinglybored said:

I doubt she’ll ever acknowledge it, tbh. HH did give her an easy out for blaming Maria and the character gets a lot of bad decisions piled on vs character development time, but then Carina would have to give up on it being #WokeAF. At best it was written as enthusiastic consent and then everyone else was like “nah, creepy” and that’s what made it to screen. Interestingly, I’m struggling to remember any examples of clearly established consent with a gay couple like you see with, say, Liz. Maybe that’s part of this. She understands consent with a straight, sexual pairing but other than that you get a lot of problems. Threesome of doom, Guerin’s hand, all the possession and messing with people’s minds, not telling Maria she was possessed, bringing Rosa back to life, bringing Max back to life, etc.
 

That interview from HH was just a total lighting rod and fuel on the fire for that messed up scene. The blow up with be bigger than if someone else said it or certain other characters did it but she did herself no favours. It’s funny because it contradicts Carina, though.

        I think you´re right on the money re: consent. They have made such a huge deal of making sure Max doesn´t take advantage of the effect the handprint has on Liz, but everybody else, including Max, is fair game. Like you said, hands healed against will, keeping people in the dark even when their lives have been in danger, bringing people back to life against their will, this whole messy mess with Alex, Michael, and Maria. 

    That interview is...something else. It does contradict the enthusiastic consent defense Carina has tried to peddle, but even without that interview, who saw enthusiasm in that scene?

[Cristofle]

The handprint wasn't the only time Max has been cautious with Liz, it's just almost exclusively related to Liz and specifically physical contact with Liz. Max has asked her before putting a jacket over her shoulders or before sitting next to her. He was veryyyyyy slow going in for a kiss by the Jeep when they were kids, and when she started to protest he immediately backed off. And don't get me wrong, it's appreciated on a show with a lot of people crossing a lot of boundaries, lol, but it's a fair point that the writing for Michael and Alex has not exactly paralleled it (although I also never got the impression one did not have the other's 'enthusiastic consent' before any sexual activity prior to this episode).

[Bloga]

2 hours ago, Cristofle said:

No, unfortunately, she doesn't, but it doesn't necessarily mean she won't. I think it kind of depends on if she refuses to ever acknowledge publicly this wasn't #woke (entirely likely) or if she decides to pretend she meant something different all along (probably not as likely but I've seen show runners completely redirect after backlash before). It won't happen this season regardless since it's already done, but if she decides next season to say "Hey, I always meant for this to be effed up!", then I think we all know who is going to take the hit for that. 

Who even knows, though. She's so fixated on Michael. I remember her saying on Twitter over the summer that Michael was going to challenge Max about healing his hand without permission since lack of consent and all, but that would look ridiculous now because Michael actively participated in bringing Max back from the dead despite being fully aware Max was literally begging them not to. And yet I would not put it past her to still have that scene coming, lol. It's probably most likely Maria and Alex will never be allowed any real POV that is anything less than being honored to have sex with Michael.

          I don´t think she cares what other people think, period. She likes what she likes and  her very twisted version of wokeness doesn´t admit criticism ( she´s now saying she never said she was woke, okayyy). I think she gives this vibe of the whole writing process being collaborative and how the actors have a say...but ultimately it´s her vision, is that a reflection of her own personal views? I don´t know, for starters she has a very twisted idea of intimacy, something like sex as the ultimate expression of love between life-long friends? Something like elevating a bisexual man as the ultimate ideal everybody should chase after and feel honored to share, what?

Edited April 22, 2020 by Bloga

[phoenics]

19 hours ago, Bloga said:

Maria has turned out to be a conniving manipulative bitch, the only black character is an oversexualized witch who bulldozes a decades long friendship over a messy messy guy...

Are you calling out tropes or ?

This is what I was afraid of when I saw this stupid storyline - Maria was going to get shredded by the fandom even though all of this feels super OOC. This is literally why I've quit the show.  I see enough black women in real life getting shredded, no need to watch it in my entertainment - especially when that black woman character is being shredded in an Oppression Olympics Triangle that was already problematic... now it's worse.

I'll say it again - this isn't Roswell... this isn't Maria.  This isn't Alex.  

I'm done.

[Bloga]

6 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Are you calling out tropes or ?

This is what I was afraid of when I saw this stupid storyline - Maria was going to get shredded by the fandom even though all of this feels super OOC. This is literally why I've quit the show.  I see enough black women in real life getting shredded, no need to watch it in my entertainment - especially when that black woman character is being shredded in an Oppression Olympics Triangle that was already problematic... now it's worse.

I'll say it again - this isn't Roswell... this isn't Maria.  This isn't Alex.  

I'm done.

              Yes, sorry, I didn´t mean to say it is what I personally believe, I mean it´s how it´s been perceived...I agree with you, this isn´t Roswell, this is a soap opera with aliens and not so veiled racism sprinkled all over, sorry if I didn´t make myself clear...

[Cristofle]

It's odd, because that Max milkshake speech was like...classic Roswell, maybe more than any other Max moment on this show. Any of the Maxes could have delivered that speech. And then you have Michael, Maria, and Alex in a three-way that Maria instigated. Maybe Max is actually benefitting from Carina's obsession with Michael.

[phoenics]

25 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

It's odd, because that Max milkshake speech was like...classic Roswell, maybe more than any other Max moment on this show. Any of the Maxes could have delivered that speech. And then you have Michael, Maria, and Alex in a three-way that Maria instigated. Maybe Max is actually benefitting from Carina's obsession with Michael.

That's so sad... smh.

[phoenics]

59 minutes ago, Bloga said:

              Yes, sorry, I didn´t mean to say it is what I personally believe, I mean it´s how it´s been perceived...I agree with you, this isn´t Roswell, this is a soap opera with aliens and not so veiled racism sprinkled all over, sorry if I didn´t make myself clear...

Thanks - that's what I'd hoped... just wasn't sure.  I've definitely seen the vitriol leveled at Maria online though.  It's all sad.  What makes this so rough is that Carina really thinks she's woke, when she's hugely problematic.

[Chick2Chic]

3 hours ago, Cristofle said:

No, unfortunately, she doesn't, but it doesn't necessarily mean she won't. I think it kind of depends on if she refuses to ever acknowledge publicly this wasn't #woke (entirely likely) or if she decides to pretend she meant something different all along (probably not as likely but I've seen show runners completely redirect after backlash before).

She could speak about it in the near future...  but why would Carina have to if people keep bringing up the threesome and clowning Maria or constantly bringing up "Maria made it happen?" As I previously stated, Carina's work is done if folks keep talking about the threesome to blame or hate on Maria and/or to call her names.

@phoenics also made a good point about the Oppression Olympics that this not even a real triangle brings out. 

On a shallow note, HH's hair was looking exceptionally gorgeous in the ep. I really liker her rocking her natural hair. 

[Featherhat]

I think it's possible that there could be a situation like this on the show and it would be more a case that Maria just plain messed up character-wise and it played out without being/seeming racist. Maria could have legitimately thought this was a good idea for the three of them and it exploded in their faces instead.

However because of Carina's treatment of Maria in general, the fact that it was extremely sudden and completely out of character and played as extremely questionable for Alex, and HH's interview it's going to end up coming across terribly and blow up everything whilst the Cosmic Lovers work their way back towards each other. 

I have seen some Maria and Maria/Michael fans hope it means MM are strong and Alex is satisfied but set free because he was loved by both of them but I don't think that's going to be what happens. 

The meteors having a strange affect on people might be a way they can spin it. However I think they'd have said that. And it would have fit more if it was Isabel/Bartender/Kyle in that case. 

 

[phoenics]

20 hours ago, Bloga said:

               I understand what you are saying, but after reading the interview, it seems like this was the intention, to pretty much throw Maria under the bus once again. I doubt Michael and Tyler will  be asked about it, they threw that load on Heather, I hope it doesn´t get too bad for her.

This is infuriating to see play out.  Poor HH.  Carina is treating her like a mule.  Yet ANOTHER racist trope and this time she's doing it to the black woman cast member.

[Cristofle]

Just now, Featherhat said:

I have seen some Maria and Maria/Michael fans hope it means MM are strong and Alex is satisfied but set free because he was loved by both of them but I don't think that's going to be what happens. 

Sigh, me either, which is why I'm still having a hard time getting into M/M. It ain't because I prefer M/A at this point, lol. And I refuse to hold this mess against Maria when it is so absolutely bananas. But I don't believe Carina is done with M/A. And it isn't going to be Michael the bus runs over to get them closer together, at least I don't believe it will be (if I am ever proven wrong, I will so very happily eat crow).

[Chick2Chic]

15 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

I think it's possible that there could be a situation like this on the show and it would be more a case that Maria just plain messed up character-wise and it played out without being/seeming racist. Maria could have legitimately thought this was a good idea for the three of them and it exploded in their faces instead.

Possibly. For me, the extent of things Maria is culpable for is suggesting it as a resolution to the non-existent triangle between them. Maria didn't hold Michael or Alex at gunpoint to join in. They're all adults. For all Maria knew, she'd have egg on her face from it with Michael choosing Alex over her. 

It was stupid the threesome even happened cause they're all too old for that type of shenanigans when a simple discussion would have sufficed but it what it is and the meteor shower could be the way to wiggle out of it for Carina. 

I'm simply tired to the language that is equating Maria to some evil mastermind who forced these two helpless men to bend to her will or threatened them if they didn't accept her suggestion. I would like to see it addressed in some way between the characters but that is also a double-edged sword cause we know the show isn't good with nuances or, truthfully speaking, writing. 

Edited April 22, 2020 by Chick2Chic
fixed something.

[ellieart]

9 hours ago, CabotCove said:

So was Isobel, she was into men and a married woman of 3 years? then come season 2, oh now she is into women..... Carina and co realised they had no lesbian, W/W  couple representation on the show. Of course I think they should keep Alex gay. Im just amazed at the double standard going on, Isobel is applauded for "experimenting" and becoming more fluid, while there is outrage over Alex for doing a similar thing in the very same episode. I think I figured why that is. Bisexuality is applauded until the bisexual character gets with someone of the opposite sex. If Isobel was lesbian identified and then suddenly got with a guy and becoming bi/fluid, they would likely be outrage too. This stuff has already been happening with Michael,  its frowned on and loathed that  he got with Maria as, if that makes him less bi to be with a woman. 

Anyway, why is it not being acknowledged that it was mentioned that a meteor shower made people act strange. Likely M/A/M wouldnt have acted that way on a different night. This being the show it is, the meteor show is likely a legit excuse. Pretty sure Alex has not changed sexuality to become more fluid, he did after all seem to be interested in starting something with Forrest, a man. Just likely, unusual circumstances, made him participate in a threesome or he was just curious. 

After watching 18 previous episodes of this shitshow, Isobel's hookup with the bartender made sense for the way her character has been portrayed since the pilot.  Yes she was married to a man, but she also didn't really question the feelings she had for Rosa when she thought they were hers and not Noah's.  They've also explicitly pointed out multiple times how experimental Isobel and Noah were with their sex life.  So this is not out of line with her character.  That's why I have no problem with this part of the episode.  It made sense.  On the other hand though, if there had been any build up to Alex questioning who he might be, I'd buy him participating in the threesome to feed some curiosity he had.

I get that they also purposely said that the meteor shower makes people act strange.  But if that's the excuse given for how wildly out of character both Alex and Maria were written, it's a cop-out.  

4 hours ago, Chick2Chic said:

Carina doesn't ever have to say anything, IMO. Look how quickly it's gone from "Poor Maria deserves more than to be marginalized or hated on [by stans, shippers, and racists]" to Maria being labeled devious or a bitch repeatedly over the threesome without pause. Carina's work is done with minimal effort. 

It was a very calculated effort on her part and the part of the writers it seems. Basically, "here's this character you wanted to have a a bigger story, but we have no intention of making her likeable.  Enjoy!."  Which is super shitty.  I love Maria, I always have, she's always been one of my favorites in all iterations of the story.  This isn't Maria.  This isn't the Maria we've had glimpses of so far.  The Maria we've seen is sure of who she is, she's confident in herself and her relationships.  I hate that she's been reduced to a conniving bitch.

[amazinglybored]

3 hours ago, Bloga said:

That interview is...something else. It does contradict the enthusiastic consent defense Carina has tried to peddle, but even without that interview, who saw enthusiasm in that scene?

I really don’t know how anyone could have gotten enthusiastic consent from that. I spent the scene wondering if it was consensual at all and I lean towards no. It was way too uncomfortable and just so damn off. The scene the next morning and HH’s interview didn’t help with that. You’ve got to wonder what they were thinking.

 

46 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

Maybe Max is actually benefitting from Carina's obsession with Michael.

For sure. With less time to do his sad, pining stalker thing he’s much more tolerable and was fun in his 10 minutes of amnesia. Meanwhile, the more attention Michael gets the more sick of him I get. 

 

 

10 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

However because of Carina's treatment of Maria in general, the fact that it was extremely sudden and completely out of character and played as extremely questionable for Alex, and HH's interview it's going to end up coming across terribly and blow up everything whilst the Cosmic Lovers work their way back towards each other. 

This is a problem with Maria that’s been brewing from day 1. They never spent enough time on her to come close to establishing her as a character and then started heaping shitty decisions on her. Is it out of character? Maybe? From what I guess is the character but that’s a lot of me guessing. I’m not sure from what they’ve shown. Terrible writing, an obsession with a character and a plethora of Carina’s issues meet black woman and disaster strikes.

 

Alex is more developed but if we were ever supposed to think he was curious about or open to women, they sure as hell never spent the time to show that. They just developed him enough for that to make absolutely so sense but be really sad.
 

 

14 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

I'm still having a hard time getting into M/M. It ain't because I prefer M/A at this point, lol.

Ah, yes, the “both of these people can do better than Michael. Why are they sacrificing a friendship and integrity for him? Wow, it’s really awkward that the successful POC are pursuing the town drunk so hard” position. It almost makes less sense than the threesome.

[Featherhat]

49 minutes ago, Chick2Chic said:

I'm simply tired to the language that is equating Maria to some evil mastermind who forced these two helpless men to bend to her will or threatened them if they didn't accept her suggestion. I would like to see it addressed in some way between the characters but that is also a double-edged sword cause we know the show isn't good with nuances or, truthfully speaking, writing. 

 I don't think of her as an evil mastermind. If it hadn't been for HH's interview and knowing about the Cosmic Love from the showrunner etc I'd be saying it was a questionable decision brought on by nearly being axe murdered by a random evil twin and it could be interesting for the characters to deal with. Neither guy seemed interested at first but both could have walked away from it you are 100% correct.  

That visible reluctance and the separate "morning after" with both of them just left it in a really weird place, especially as "enthusiastic consent" was actually mentioned out loud in this episode. And yeah with this show there's no such thing as subtlety or nuance to make the characters grow and there's not going to be a happy ending. The way they set it up seems like it's going to blow back on Maria but if they'd just done it differently it wouldn't be so sudden and potentially troubling. They could have spent more time building up to it, especially with Alex. But that would be because they actually wanted to create a potential throuple, which they don't. 

Both of them can certainly do better than Michael. 

Edited April 22, 2020 by Featherhat

[Bloga]

28 minutes ago, amazinglybored said:

I really don’t know how anyone could have gotten enthusiastic consent from that. I spent the scene wondering if it was consensual at all and I lean towards no. It was way too uncomfortable and just so damn off. The scene the next morning and HH’s interview didn’t help with that. You’ve got to wonder what they were thinking.

 

For sure. With less time to do his sad, pining stalker thing he’s much more tolerable and was fun in his 10 minutes of amnesia. Meanwhile, the more attention Michael gets the more sick of him I get. 

 

 

This is a problem with Maria that’s been brewing from day 1. They never spent enough time on her to come close to establishing her as a character and then started heaping shitty decisions on her. Is it out of character? Maybe? From what I guess is the character but that’s a lot of me guessing. I’m not sure from what they’ve shown. Terrible writing, an obsession with a character and a plethora of Carina’s issues meet black woman and disaster strikes.

 

Alex is more developed but if we were ever supposed to think he was curious about or open to women, they sure as hell never spent the time to show that. They just developed him enough for that to make absolutely so sense but be really sad.
 

 

Ah, yes, the “both of these people can do better than Michael. Why are they sacrificing a friendship and integrity for him? Wow, it’s really awkward that the successful POC are pursuing the town drunk so hard” position. It almost makes less sense than the threesome.

    But can Alex and Maria be seen equally as poc, though? Genuinely asking.

    On another note, it seems like it was Carina´s idea that Maria starts wearing her hair natural after she finds out about the aliens...I don´t know what to make of it, other than Heather is BEAUTIFUL

Edited April 22, 2020 by Bloga

[phoenics]

6 hours ago, amazinglybored said:

It’s funny because it contradicts Carina, though.

Not really - because it's clear that Carina told HH that was Maria's motivation.  She's setting her up to shove her off the show or kill her or something.  Alex never made it out of S2 of the OGshow, so Maria is now Alex and likely will be killed off.

I really hate Carina - I'm leaving this trainwreck now before I lose anymore sleep over it.  I'm just so angry at how HH/Maria has been treated and how Carina has twisted the characters I love so much.

She should never have been given the rights to produce anything called Roswell.  She doesn't deserve it.  This is worse than what Jason Katims did with Max/Liz/Tess.

[amazinglybored]

35 minutes ago, Bloga said:

    But can Alex and Maria be seen equally as poc, though? Genuinely asking.

    On another note, it seems like it was Carina´s idea that Maria starts wearing her hair natural after she finds out about the aliens...I don´t know what to make of it, other than Heather is BEAUTIFUL

Hmmm, I imagine it would be a very complex thing to figure out but humanity tends to suck at the equal part. You’d also have to account for gender, sexuality and disability in that. If you just mean who passes more for white, I guess not? Maybe? Idk. They don’t have to be seen as equally POC for it to be more of the same messiness with this show, imo. Carina has deliberately made them characters who aren’t white and probably congratulates herself on it regularly.

Mainly, I think it’s just the part about the successful POC both going though all of this for the white town drunk who is totally a good guy when he’s not lashing out. Oh, he lashes out a lot? Well. His sadness makes that okay.

 

Knowing how this show goes, I wouldn’t take anything good from that, tbh. Or there’s no connection to anything. She’s a beautiful woman regardless of whatever the motivation might be.

[amazinglybored]

1 minute ago, phoenics said:

Not really - because it's clear that Carina told HH that was Maria's motivation.  She's setting her up to shove her off the show or kill her or something.  Alex never made it out of S2 of the OGshow, so Maria is now Alex and likely will be killed off.

I really hate Carina - I'm leaving this trainwreck now before I lose anymore sleep over it.  I'm just so angry at how HH/Maria has been treated and how Carina has twisted the characters I love so much.

She should never have been given the rights to produce anything called Roswell.  She doesn't deserve it.  This is worse than what Jason Katims did with Max/Liz/Tess.

I just wouldn’t go betting on that level of communication, but if Carina told her that and still tried to peddle the enthusiastic consent in a safe place thing... yeah, it’s still funny in its awfulness. What kind of idiot can’t keep that straight? Tries to lie their way out of a mistake with HH giving the interview? It’s not good but it’s funny.
 

I doubt she’ll kill Maria or anyone unless one of the actors wants out. It would only be more bad writing and shoving characters off to the side. They really can’t handle a cast this size on top of everything else.

[RachelKM]

On 4/21/2020 at 7:33 AM, peachmangosteen said:

Fucking hell, Kyle and Isobel had more chem in those like, what, 5 scenes then any other 2 people on this show have had in 19 eps. And this ep made me realize they're the only characters I truly like and care about lol. I'm sad that I feel like they're not interested in actually going there with them. I just hope they have tons of more scenes together at least.

Same. I like them both and liked the together more than any other combination of character other than the PodSquad.

Also, are we supposed to believe that Stephanie person is who Kyle has "feelings for"? Like, over a handful of conversations and quips? I do not care about her.

The threasome was the most bizarre misstep this show has made.  Alex having sex with his female best friend and his first love is obviously an issue  and it has been well covered on this board.  But it was a terrible idea for all of them emotionally.  It had the potential to be emotionally confusing and harmful to any or all of them and still could be.

Liz and Max were the most fun together I can recall them being.  Still don't have a lot of interest in them as a couple.  I think they're fine, I just generally prefer each of them in scenes with other characters.

[Heartsparkgirl]

I'm trying to understand how the interview that Heather gave was so horrible. I mean, I think if I viewed Alex as a perpetual victim I might get it. She's talking about how she played a scene and where she imagined Maria was coming from. She didn't write the scene, of course, but she did act it out because it's her job. The fact that she was so chill about Maria being selfish and wanting things to work in her favor clearly didn't go over well. Whoops.

Did I think the threesome scene was wack? Hell yeah. But the new and improved ways in which to demonize Maria makes my head spin. Again, I blame the writers. How could they not see the fans coming for her because of this? Everyone's doing a lot of detective work, ignoring dialogue and instead saying that if you *look* at Alex's body language you'd SEE that he was so uncomfortable and that MEANS that he was FORCED...it's a lot.

I actually shipped both couples in the first season and now I don't want any of them to be together. It's just ruined. There were just so many better ways to handle their love triangle.

I really enjoyed Isobel and Kyle's flirtations! And I'm glad that dark Max is back to teddy bear Max OR IS HE...

[ellieart]

4 minutes ago, Heartsparkgirl said:

I'm trying to understand how the interview that Heather gave was so horrible. I mean, I think if I viewed Alex as a perpetual victim I might get it. She's talking about how she played a scene and where she imagined Maria was coming from. She didn't write the scene, of course, but she did act it out because it's her job. The fact that she was so chill about Maria being selfish and wanting things to work in her favor clearly didn't go over well. Whoops.

Did I think the threesome scene was wack? Hell yeah. But the new and improved ways in which to demonize Maria makes my head spin. Again, I blame the writers. How could they not see the fans coming for her because of this? Everyone's doing a lot of detective work, ignoring dialogue and instead saying that if you *look* at Alex's body language you'd SEE that he was so uncomfortable and that MEANS that he was FORCED...it's a lot.

I actually shipped both couples in the first season and now I don't want any of them to be together. It's just ruined. There were just so many better ways to handle their love triangle.

I really enjoyed Isobel and Kyle's flirtations! And I'm glad that dark Max is back to teddy bear Max OR IS HE...

I think for the most part, the people hating on Maria (and Heather) so vehemently are the ones who already hated her for "breaking up" Michael and Alex.  So this entire thing just fuels them even more.  I think that interview came off so horribly because of the way Heather said Maria did it so Michael would choose.  It sucks that she'll be getting so much hate for doing her job and doing what was written (even though it was wildly out of character).

The dialogue in that scene was not as clear cut as Carina and the writers are trying to make it seem.  Tyler's delivery of the lines in which he says he DOESN'T want to leave is so low and almost inaudible that I find it hard to believe that wasn't done on purpose.  Do I believe he was forced, no.  Maybe manipulated, but not forced.  But I also saw nothing but discomfort in that scene, his body language did not scream "enthusiastic consent" to me.  I know mileage varies, but I feel like if they're going to actually do this scene, it should be so clear cut that people won't question its intent.  Viewers shouldn't have to rely on hearing what the intent was after the fact from Carina and co.

[amazinglybored]

49 minutes ago, ellieart said:

I think that interview came off so horribly because of the way Heather said Maria did it so Michael would choose.  It sucks that she'll be getting so much hate for doing her job and doing what was written (even though it was wildly out of character).

 

Yeah, I really think what she said was bad but if I’m being kind, and I’m inclined to be here, she was given something wildly stupid and out of character so she came out with something stupid. Or it was Carina’s first take on what happened before everyone hated it. Anyway, she got put in a bad position.

 

It’s honestly all one big ball of “how did this happen?” 

[Chick2Chic]

2 hours ago, Heartsparkgirl said:

I'm trying to understand how the interview that Heather gave was so horrible. I mean, I think if I viewed Alex as a perpetual victim I might get it

I think this is fair. 

[steelyis]

5 hours ago, phoenics said:

Not really - because it's clear that Carina told HH that was Maria's motivation.  She's setting her up to shove her off the show or kill her or something.  Alex never made it out of S2 of the OGshow, so Maria is now Alex and likely will be killed off.

She better not kill off Maria!

I haven't given up on the show. I've grown a bit attached to the characters, so I'm invested in future stories, but if Maria dies that's a deal breaker. Killing off Kyle would also affect my interest in the show.

[Quickbeam]

I felt like the three way arose out of the moment and the strength of feeling that Alex and Maria have for Michael, plus Michael’s feelings for both of them. I got the impression they were both having sex with Michael rather than each other. It was unexpected and made good tv. 
 

I really love Vlamis in this role, I never liked Brendan Fehr’s performance in the original.

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, Quickbeam said:

I felt like the three way arose out of the moment and the strength of feeling that Alex and Maria have for Michael, plus Michael’s feelings for both of them. I got the impression they were both having sex with Michael rather than each other.

This part I agree with. 
 

On my screen I heard Alex say “I DON’T want to leave.” (And that’s what the closed captioning said) I wasn’t a fan of the threesome but it seemed to me that it was a “near death experience + meteor + Alex and Maria are both into Michael” type situation.
 

I don’t think this experience makes Alex any less gay or negates his identity as a gay man. Actions don’t equal orientation. And it seems after he was like “yeah that was weird, I’m not entangling myself with Michael any more.” I am more concerned what this will do to Alex and Maria’s friendship. 
 

We often see lesbian women having sex with men and straight women having sex with women so I didn’t have a problem with this depiction- and I say this as someone who wasn’t a huge fan of the threesome for other reasons. 

[peachmangosteen]

26 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I don’t think this experience makes Alex any less gay or negates his identity as a gay man. Actions don’t equal orientation. And it seems after he was like “yeah that was weird, I’m not entangling myself with Michael any more.” 

I agree with this for sure. 

The reason I personally didn't like the threesome is because it gave legitimate reasons for people to dislike Maria's actions and since to me it seems like Carina doesn't give a shit about Maria and doesn't care that her only black character gets ridiculous hate it feels like she did this out of spite or something.

Basically, I only care about Maria in that trio so!

[methodwriter85]

On 4/23/2020 at 8:33 AM, Quickbeam said:

I felt like the three way arose out of the moment and the strength of feeling that Alex and Maria have for Michael, plus Michael’s feelings for both of them. I got the impression they were both having sex with Michael rather than each other. It was unexpected and made good tv. 
 

I really love Vlamis in this role, I never liked Brendan Fehr’s performance in the original.

I'm with you on the fact that it made for good t.v. I don't think a threesome has ever been depicted in the WB/CW before, even though it would have totally made sense on the Vampie Diaries or Buffy. (If I'm wrong, please correct me.) I've also seen a good deal of queer cinema that deals with it, so I guess I just kind of rolled with it. As for Max, of course he would pretend he liked a milkshake he didn't. As for Carina, I've made the choice to ignore anything she says although I do think she needs to get it over with and have a character with blonde curls named "Carrie" have drunk sex with Michael one night.

Edited April 24, 2020 by methodwriter85

[Chick2Chic]

1 hour ago, methodwriter85 said:

I don't think a threesome has ever been depicted in the WB/CW before,

Gossip Girl had a threesome.

[Bloga]

On 4/23/2020 at 4:18 PM, Scarlett45 said:

I am more concerned what this will do to Alex and Maria’s friendship. 
 

         Yes, this is exactly it...for me it´s also Michael is the one who gets to question whether they have crossed a line, meanwhile Maria is waiting in the trailer, expectant.

        For those who see this as not so much a threesome, but both Alex and Maria having sex with Michael separately, isn´t that even worse? The two of them taking turns to pleasure Michael, whose depiction is more and more ridiculous as time goes on...

       Whether or not a shocking scene makes for good tv, when it´s at the expense of an already marginalized character, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth...don´t present a coupling as "cosmic" and endgame, and then have the one character who is in the dark about the main plot  for almost 2 seasons and consistently sidelined be the one looking bad, because one doesn´t have to be too smart to know the storm of hatred this would cause. Yes, nobody held anybody at gunpoint, but there was a a lot of prodding going on. 

     

4 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

As for Carina, I've made the choice to ignore anything she says although I do think she needs to get it over with and have a character with blonde curls named "Carrie* have drunk sex with Michael one night.

      Oh, give her time, lol. She´s been surprisingly quiet about the whole threesomegate...the moment she saw negative reactions, she changed the subject and now all she talks about is Liz and Max´s meet cute, and his amnesia, blablabla

     Edit: Actually not that quiet...she´s complaining it sucks, and if someone wants to post criticism on her feed, to go elsewhere,she´s been sharing messages from polyamorous folk who saw themselves represented in that scene...which, fair enough, but since they are clearly not going the polyamorous route...does it really count? Anyways, she says she wanted to do something nice for Heather, the writers, Alex, and Michael, since they have, surprise, been getting a lot of hate...did she really think everybody was going to be cool with this?

Edited April 24, 2020 by Bloga

[methodwriter85]

I mean, I was cool with it, and I'm a gay man. I have a friend who is bisexual and he's married to a woman, but he has a sexual relationship with another man that his wife and the other guy's wife are completely accepting of. One time he and his wife and his friend had a threesome for his birthday. I personally like that this show is allowing Michael to be bisexual because male bisexuals are almost non-existent in media.

[Bloga]

5 minutes ago, methodwriter85 said:

I mean, I was cool with it, and I'm a gay man. I have a friend who is bisexual and he's married to a woman, but he has a sexual relationship with another man that his wife and the other guy's wife are completely accepting of. One time he and his wife and his friend had a threesome for his birthday. I personally like that this show is allowing Michael to be bisexual because male bisexuals are almost non-existent in media.

          I completely respect your opinion, but in this instance, there was this conscious effort to present Alex and Michael as the ultimate star crossed lovers, destined to be together, etc, so when they first had a fallout and Maria and Michael first got together, back in season one, there was backlash, and right from that moment the dynamic was inbalanced, as in Maria as a character didn´t stand a chance to be on equal footing, and the love triangle or whatever was inbalanced from the get go. My complaint before this episode was always how they managed to completely sideline Maria, who´s coincidentally the only black character, so for me personally, my criticism comes from feeling the cards she´s been dealt are shitty from the beginning...also, I respectfully object to solving personal issues and tangled relationships with sex...they could have just talked about it as adults, sure Alex being in a threesome doesn´t negate his sexuality, but what about his friendship with Maria? What about it all being a test? Isn´t that hurtful?

[RachelKM]

2 minutes ago, Bloga said:

sure Alex being in a threesome doesn´t negate his sexuality, but what about his friendship with Maria? What about it all being a test? Isn´t that hurtful?

This.  I've known gay men who really didn't considered themselves bisexual who had had sex with women they cared about. People can enjoy sex for the closeness of the experience as well as the biological getting off part without it really being what they want. Granted, I've also had friend who cringed at the reference to any lady parts. So, there's that.  At any rate, orientation is more than the ability to be aroused.  

But it very much bothers me that these people did this with such a tangle of very strong emotions between them.   They are not, best I can tell, poly-amorous.  There are feelings between each of the pairs of individuals, but not as a thruple.  This is not going to help them resolve what is an emotionally untenable situation.

But even worse, apparently this wasn't an attempt to resolve the emotional situation through addressing feelings, but a test?  A test of what?  Michael's preference between them? How does that work exactly?  Which of them he spends more time interacting with?  Looking at? Who he's focused on when he orgasms?  WTF are the parameters of this dumbassed, emotionally harmful test? 

And I didn't see Maria sitting in the trailer "expectant."  I saw her as apprehensive.  But maybe I was just projecting. 

[Bloga]

16 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

But even worse, apparently this wasn't an attempt to resolve the emotional situation through addressing feelings, but a test?  A test of what?  Michael's preference between them? How does that work exactly?  Which of them he spends more time interacting with?  Looking at? Who he's focused on when he orgasms?  WTF are the parameters of this dumbassed, emotionally harmful test? 

And I didn't see Maria sitting in the trailer "expectant."  I saw her as apprehensive.  But maybe I was just projecting. 

         Yeah, if it was a threesome, how does that help solve the messines amongst them? If, on the other hand, was some kind of tag-team sex fest, does Michael grade them individually and that´s part of his decision?

     Apprehensive is a better word, considering she initiated this. Was she doubting her decision at that point? I hope so, instead of giving that crossing the line question to Michael, maybe have her say something instead? 

[Featherhat]

4 hours ago, Bloga said:

         Yeah, if it was a threesome, how does that help solve the messines amongst them? If, on the other hand, was some kind of tag-team sex fest, does Michael grade them individually and that´s part of his decision?

     Apprehensive is a better word, considering she initiated this. Was she doubting her decision at that point? I hope so, instead of giving that crossing the line question to Michael, maybe have her say something instead? 

Obviously it doesn't solve anything. I think them making a mistake after a near death experience and all having sex *could* be an interesting wrench in the storyline as they struggle with the fallout because the strong emotional bonds were one of the reasons Maria started it in the first place (after nearly dying). But the way they set it up and how Heather is talking about it in that interview just scream that it's going to blow back on Maria in an ugly way. And it truly plays into people's fears that CAM is willing to throw her under the bus to get her cosmic love back together eventually. It would take much better writers to do it justice for all three of them. 

Theoretically it could have lead to them attempting a throuple situation storyline because they emphasised the Alex-Maria bond, (even with Alex identifying as gay) but that doesn't seem on the cards from the look on his face and the completely separate morning afters. Even if they did, I doubt it would work longterm with their character traits and probably none of them being ready for a strong couple let alone anything more complicated requiring everyone be willing to communicate 100%. And that would need much more nuanced writers to do it justice as well. 

Edited April 24, 2020 by Featherhat

[Cristofle]

1 hour ago, RachelKM said:

But it very much bothers me that these people did this with such a tangle of very strong emotions between them. 

I think that is arguably the least advisable part of this cluster, taking the characters at face value. Sure, people have threesomes with partners of the opposite sex when they identify as gay or with partners of the same sex when they identify as heterosexual, and sometimes it goes well and sometimes it doesn't, which is always a part of exploring your sexuality. But given the emotional entanglements between these people, this is not what anyone would recommend for a "let's explore our sexual feelings" threesome. 

I mean, from a fandom perspective, I'm probably most pissed off at the target that got painted on Maria, because in no way, shape, or form would I EVER buy that Carina didn't see the backlash coming, but from a character perspective, the most problematic part is that these are not three people who should've had a threesome, given the complicated emotional bonds between them. 

[Bloga]

3 hours ago, Cristofle said:

I mean, from a fandom perspective, I'm probably most pissed off at the target that got painted on Maria, because in no way, shape, or form would I EVER buy that Carina didn't see the backlash coming, but from a character perspective, the most problematic part is that these are not three people who should've had a threesome, given the complicated emotional bonds between them. 

           So much this, she saw this coming, prior to the episode airing she was teasing " a lot of people are going to want to talk to me about SOME THINGS in the episode" her oh people are so mean/ I never said I was woke charade is quite shameful, I´m against bullying and harassment, but people who do those things aren´t right in the head to begin with, so if it´s true people are telling her to kill herself, that´s wrong.  I´ve seen people giving very polite and respectful criticism, though, and reminding her she has told the fandom time and time again her work was up for criticism, so now changing the tune and whining, and alluding to her mental health, which to my knowledge never mentioned prior to this, and how she has no access to her support system at a time like this, when so many people are going through hell, it´s quite distasteful really, she´s only interested in your opinion if you praise her for, I´m paraphrasing, bringing an underrepresented minority to the screen ( polyamorous folk) which, is that what´s going on here? I don´t think it is, at all. These are three adults who should have had a conversation, like adults. Are they going to blame it on the meteor shower? Is Michael going to act like a jealous ass when Alex gets together with Forrest? I bet he will. 

Edited April 24, 2020 by Bloga

[Whodunnit]

Wasn't Alex stabbed with an icepick in this episode?

He shouldn't have been having a threesome, he should have either been

A) in a hospital, or

B) in a bed actually sleeping and doped to the gills on pain meds Kyle gave him.