S05.E05: Dedicado a Max

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

Maybe Kim is a Traveler?
 

They are a group of Irish Gypsies, that settled in America, who are known for having child brides and conning the elderly.

With her story about having to leave in the middle of the night to avoid landlords, it could be just about anything from a single mom who just couldn't come up with rent money, to more unsavory things.  Her moral code that is now showing big cracks could have come from a strict upbringing, a fundamentalist group, or maybe she reacted to escaping grifters/religious nuts by going as far as she could in a different direction.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, PeterPirate said:

As the story was presented, Gus couldn't kill Jesse because Walt insisted he would stop working for Gus.  I didn't watch BB when it aired and I avoided the online discussions.  I wonder if people at the time thought 1) Walt's willingness to stand up to Gus over Jesse was a plot device to keep Aaron Paul on the show; and 2) if it was bad writing. 

I think there was only a brief moment when it would have been prudent for Gus to kill Jesse.  It would have been after Walt ratted him out about his plan to poison Gus's  dealers who had Combo killed.  

By the time Jesse went to try to kill them, for killing Tomas, and Walt did it instead, it was too late.  Jesse fled, and Gus wanted to kill him.  He sent Mike to threaten Saul to give up his location, but Saul gave him a fake address.  

Then, when Mike and Victor had Walt in custody at the lab, Walt told them he would call Jesse to set him up to be killed, but he tricked them and told Jesse to kill Gale.

Once Gale was dead,  Gus had only Walt (who had terminal lung cancer) and Jesse who knew how to make his product.   Since, he knew Walt wouldn't be around for very long, Gus then started using Mike to groom Jesse to be Walt's replacement.   I think he also believed Jesse would be easier to control than Walt.   

I don't think I ever realized how early Gus came up with the plan to replace Walt with Jesse, until I rewatched those episodes for about the 4th or 5th time recently.   

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

Yes, but this was happening at a time when Jesse was shooting up and crashing in drug houses, and Gus had Mike watching Jesse do it, prior to Mike developing some protective feelings for Jesse. The easiest thing in the world would have been for Jesse to have an "accidental" od.

By that time, Gale was already dead, and, other than Jesse, the only one who could cook Fring's product was Walt, who had terminal cancer and was smart enough and devious enough to be a threat to Fring.  

I don't think Mike's protective feelings toward Jesse kept him alive.  I think Gus decided, shortly after Gale's murder, that he would use Mike to groom Jesse to replace Walt.  At the very least, he needed a Plan B, meth cook.   

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

By that time, Gale was already dead, and, other than Jesse, the only one who could cook Fring's product was Walt, who had terminal cancer and was smart enough and devious enough to be a threat to Fring.  

I don't think Mike's protective feelings toward Jesse kept him alive.  I think Gus decided, shortly after Gale's murder, that he would use Mike to groom Jesse to replace Walt.  At the very least, he needed a Plan B, meth cook.   

Gus knew that Jesse was a drug addict before he ever formally introduced himself to Walt as being in the meth business. In his first conversation with Walt he notes that Jesse is a drug addict, and that a drug addict can never be trusted. Gus was already working with Gale, and there is zero chance that Gus did not see Gale as a far more reliable and productive assistant to Walt. Gus kills people who threaten his business. The easiest thing in the world to do would have been to kill Jesse, with Walt thinking it was an accidental overdose.

[Bryce Lynch]

25 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Gus knew that Jesse was a drug addict before he ever formally introduced himself to Walt as being in the meth business. In his first conversation with Walt he notes that Jesse is a drug addict, and that a drug addict can never be trusted. Gus was already working with Gale, and there is zero chance that Gus did not see Gale as a far more reliable and productive assistant to Walt. Gus kills people who threaten his business. The easiest thing in the world to do would have been to kill Jesse, with Walt thinking it was an accidental overdose.

You could certainly argue that Fring should have rejected Walt's decision to replace Gale with Jesse.  Though, as far as Fring new, Gale had ruined a batch and wasn't working out.   At any rate, killing Jesse, at that point, would not have seemed necessary. 

Jesse was clean, at that point, and doing a good job (though skimming a little extra meth).  

Within 2 or 3 weeks, he found out about Fring's dealers killing Combo.  When Walt ratted him out, THAT would have been the one logical time for Fring to have Jesse killed.  But, because he wanted to keep Walt happy and not alienate him, and because he thought Jesse and his dealers had a legitimate disagreement, he gave Jesse a chance to make the peace, and apparently he did.

But, very soon after that, Tomas was killed, probably by the dealers going rogue.  Jesse flipped out and went to try to kill them, Walt saved Jesse by killing the dealers, and Jesse fled.  

During that time Gus very much wanted Jesse dead ,but they couldn't find him.  He was also planning to kill Walt as soon as Gale was up to speed in the super lab.  But, then Walt tricked Mike and was able to call Jesse and tell him to kill Gale.

After that, killing either Walt or Jesse was not a good option.  Gus, then decided to try to alienate Jesse from Gus, get him bonded to Mike and win him over, so he could have a young, not super bright, loyal meth cook, instead of a dying, brilliant, and devious one.  

It worked perfectly, until Walt poisoned Brock, with Lily of the Valley and convinced Jesse that Fring did it, with the ricin in Jesse's cigarette.   
 

 

 

Edited March 18, 2020 by Bryce Lynch

[Bannon]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

You could certainly argue that Fring should have rejected Walt's decision to replace Gale with Jesse.  Though, as far as Fring new, Gale had ruined a batch and wasn't working out.   At any rate, killing Jesse, at that point, would not have seemed necessary. 

Jesse was clean, at that point, and doing a good job (though skimming a little extra meth).  

Within 2 or 3 weeks, he found out about Fring's dealers killing Combo.  When Walt ratted him out, THAT would have been the one logical time for Fring to have Jesse killed.  But, because he wanted to keep Walt happy and not alienate him, and because he thought Jesse and his dealers had a legitimate disagreement, he gave Jesse a chance to make the peace, and apparently he did.

But, very soon after that, Tomas was killed, probably by the dealers going rogue.  Jesse flipped out and went to try to kill them, Walt saved Jesse by killing the dealers, and Jesse fled.  

During that time Gus very much wanted Jesse dead ,but they couldn't find him.  He was also planning to kill Walt as soon as Gale was up to speed in the super lab.  But, then Walt tricked Mike and was able to call Jess and tell him to kill Gale.

After that, killing either Walt or Jesse was not a good option.  Gus, then decided to try to alienate Jesse from Gus, get him bonded to Mike and win him over, so he could have a young, not super bright, loyal meth cook, instead of a dying, brilliant, and devious one.  

It worked perfectly, until Walt poisoned Brock, with Lily of the Valley and convinced Jesse that Fring did it, with the ricin in Jesse's cigarette.   
 

 

 

We're kind of going far afield here, so this will be my last post on the topic. Again, Gus recognized Jesse's drug habit, and Jesse as a liability, the first time Gus saw Walt and Jesse in the restaurant.  Gus doesn't needlessly risk liabilities. There was no need to offer Walt Gale's services until giving Jesse an od, and, in fact, there is no way Gus would not have killed drug addict Jesse, once he decided that he'd rather have Gale working for Walt. He wouldn't have even mentioned Gale, until after Jesse was dead, by "accident".

[Clanstarling]

On 3/16/2020 at 9:29 PM, scenario said:

The show is a classic Greek tragedy. Jimmy and Kim are both hero's whose inherent flaws will destroy them in the end. 

Kim knows what she's doing is wrong and foolish but she just can't help herself because it is in her nature. 

Exactly.

On 3/16/2020 at 11:45 PM, Bannon said:

Watching Kim destroy herself  is hard to watch, and I think it is supposed to be hard to watch. We do need greater insight as to why Kim is engaged on this path, however. 

I've always said that I knew I wasn't going to "enjoy" this season. This is the season where they make irrevocable decisions that lead them to Breaking Bad (or in Kim's case - her mysterious non-appearance in BB).

On 3/17/2020 at 4:01 AM, Blakeston said:

For her recklessness to suddenly escalate like this, it would be nice to know what's behind it. The only clues we've been given are that Acker seemingly got under her skin by saying that she works for "the man," and that speech she gave about her childhood. Neither are good enough explanations, IMO. I'm hoping there's something better coming.

See, I feel she's been slowly escalating all the time, and this particular event - which I think does connect directly to her childhood (and from her story, probably being evicted multiple times) - is what is behind the sudden acceleration. I'm sure we'll learn more, but for me, what we know now is sufficient to explain it.

On 3/17/2020 at 5:09 AM, GussieK said:

I loved this episode. Don’t mind that it was slow. Loved that smile on Kim’s face when she spotted whatever she spotted in that photo. We still don’t know what it is. I’m not sure it is just copyright infringement. 

Me too.

[Milburn Stone]

57 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I've always said that I knew I wasn't going to "enjoy" this season. This is the season where they make irrevocable decisions that lead them to Breaking Bad (or in Kim's case - her mysterious non-appearance in BB).

At this point, it's like the best case scenario is she ends up totally ruined and homeless in San Francisco or something.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

I've always said that I knew I wasn't going to "enjoy" this season. This is the season where they make irrevocable decisions that lead them to Breaking Bad (or in Kim's case - her mysterious non-appearance in BB).

I think the irrevocable decisions on BB were a big part of why many viewers continued to care about the characters on BB much longer and even to the end.

Walt and Jesse did most of the terrible things they did, because they were trapped by previous morally wrong decisions that they made, that weren't as bad.

The least justifiable decision that Walt made was probably turning down money or a job from Gretchen and Elliot and continuing to cook meth.  That was done out of pride, and put him in a situation where he was forced to either do a lot of other terrible things, or go to prison or be killed.  

Kim and Jimmy both had clear paths to safe, prosperous lives in the legal profession.  But, they keep choosing to be dirty, because they love scamming people.   This makes them far less sympathetic to me than Walt, Jesse, or Skyler were on  BB.   They aren't forced into doing scummy things by circumstances, they choose to be scummy because they get off on it.  

[ShadowFacts]

I never realized until this episode that Max was the hermano in Los Pollos Hermanos.  Maybe it was referenced in BB and I don't remember it or was too dense to get it.  But it now illuminates Gus a little more for me, his ongoing grief fueling his revenge -- every day the hermano he lost is in his very business.  The killing of Max still stands out to me as the most shocking and abhorrent in a series full of shocking and abhorrent. 

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think the irrevocable decisions on BB were a big part of why many viewers continued to care about the characters on BB much longer and even to the end.

Walt and Jesse did most of the terrible things they did, because they were trapped by previous morally wrong decisions that they made, that weren't as bad.

The least justifiable decision that Walt made was probably turning down money or a job from Gretchen and Elliot and continuing to cook meth.  That was done out of pride, and put him in a situation where he was forced to either do a lot of other terrible things, or go to prison or be killed.  

Kim and Jimmy both had clear paths to safe, prosperous lives in the legal profession.  But, they keep choosing to be dirty, because they love scamming people.   This makes them far less sympathetic to me than Walt, Jesse, or Skyler were on  BB.   They aren't forced into doing scummy things by circumstances, they choose to be scummy because they get off on it.  

And Walt had a path to the finest health care a billionaire couple could provide, and a comfortable income from a job where he'd be able to make his medical treatment the 1st priority. He chose to kill people instead, because accepting those things hurt his feelings. I really never once saw Walt, in any way, sympathetically, once he turned down Gretchen and Elliott's offer. Knowing what Jimmy, as Saul, eventually becomes an advocate for, I don't see him sympathetically in any way, either. Kim? We'll see. If the worst thing she does is cheat Mesa Verde from getting the optimal transaction on a parcel of land in Tucumcari, well, hell,  I don't excuse it, but  I personally know about 5 lawyers who have done worse than that. Unlike Walt and Jimmy she's not a full blown antihero, at least not yet.

[Milburn Stone]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Kim and Jimmy both had clear paths to safe, prosperous lives in the legal profession.  But, they keep choosing to be dirty, because they love scamming people.   This makes them far less sympathetic to me than Walt, Jesse, or Skyler were on  BB.   They aren't forced into doing scummy things by circumstances, they choose to be scummy because they get off on it.  

I'm largely with you, except that I think they get off on being scummy because they're made that way.

Edited March 19, 2020 by Milburn Stone

[Bryce Lynch]

32 minutes ago, Bannon said:

And Walt had a path to the finest health care a billionaire couple could provide, and a comfortable income from a job where he'd be able to make his medical treatment the 1st priority. He chose to kill people instead, because accepting those things hurt his feelings. I really never once saw Walt, in any way, sympathetically, once he turned down Gretchen and Elliott's offer. Knowing what Jimmy, as Saul, eventually becomes an advocate for, I don't see him sympathetically in any way, either. Kim? We'll see. If the worst thing she does is cheat Mesa Verde from getting the optimal transaction on a parcel of land in Tucumcari, well, hell,  I don't excuse it, but  I personally know about 5 lawyers who have done worse than that. Unlike Walt and Jimmy she's not a full blown antihero, at least not yet.

That decision to reject G&E's help was what got the ball rolling on all the other terrible things.  But, to me that was at least understandable.  Pride is a real thing that everyone suffers from to one degree or another. 

I'm sure Walt didn't think he was going to need to kill a bunch of people to stay alive and out of prison when he made that choice.  That is why I found Walt more sympathetic, at least probably up to Season 5.   He was trapped by a wrong, but not outright evil bad choice. 

The next decision that led to a lot more violence and tragedy was Walt refusing to take the $5 million buyout from Delcan.   It was similar, but far more abhorrent.  His family would have been set up very comfortably for the rest of their lives and he wouldn't have to be involved in any more drug business, violence or danger.  

I find Jimmy totally unsympathetic because he had multiple painless paths to a good, trouble free life, but chooses to be a scumbag.

By the time we meet him in BB, he is already worse than Walt is at the time of their meeting.   He casually suggests murdering a witness, which suggests he has arranged such things before. 

Edited March 19, 2020 by Bryce Lynch

[scenario]

2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think the irrevocable decisions on BB were a big part of why many viewers continued to care about the characters on BB much longer and even to the end.

Walt and Jesse did most of the terrible things they did, because they were trapped by previous morally wrong decisions that they made, that weren't as bad.

The least justifiable decision that Walt made was probably turning down money or a job from Gretchen and Elliot and continuing to cook meth.  That was done out of pride, and put him in a situation where he was forced to either do a lot of other terrible things, or go to prison or be killed.  

Kim and Jimmy both had clear paths to safe, prosperous lives in the legal profession.  But, they keep choosing to be dirty, because they love scamming people.   This makes them far less sympathetic to me than Walt, Jesse, or Skyler were on  BB.   They aren't forced into doing scummy things by circumstances, they choose to be scummy because they get off on it.  

Walt went into a business when he knew right from the start that his product was going to kill people. He wanted to get enough money together to let his family live comfortably when he was dead. You don't make hundreds of thousands of dollars in the drug business in a couple of years as a low end dealer. He would have to rise to at least the middle of the pack quickly to get that kind of money. Rising that far that fast is going to involve violence.

As smart a man as Walt was he knew right from the start that he was going to have to kill people at least indirectly sooner or later. 

At this point in our story Saul is a lawyer looking to make as much money as possible in any way possible. The scams he's pulling are wrong but they aren't likely to kill anyone. Any lawyer who defends criminals may end up indirectly causing someones death by getting the wrong person out of prison. 

Personally while I find scamming wrong, I don't put it in the same category as someone who knowingly kills or allows many people to dies. Walt's plan at best would have led to many overdoses and gang killings. Saul and Kim's plan's at this point don't necessarily lead to anyone dying. 

If Chuck had let Jimmy work as a lawyer in the firm or associated with the firm but put in a whole boatload of restrictions, Jimmy would have agreed to them. He wouldn't have liked them but he lived to make Chuck happy. When Chuck did what he did, he just didn't care anymore. 

I can understand Kim up to a point. I've worked in places that made me so uncomfortable that I just didn't give a damn anymore. It's clear that Kim doesn't really want to be a big time lawyer. She was fine when it was doing government paperwork but when she was expected to kick an old man out of his home, she didn't want to do it. The fact that the company was right and the old man wrong didn't make it any better.  

[PeterPirate]

During Mike's spate of clean living, I was wondering if he would get his mind clear and go back to being Kaylee's Pop-Pop.  Of course, from the appearance of the doctor and the fountain early on, I knew that was an impossible hope.  I still wonder how they are going to repair the relationship between Mike and his family.  

Walt let Jane die right in front of him.   That was halfway through the second season.

Edited March 19, 2020 by PeterPirate

[Bannon]

28 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

That decision to reject G&E's help was what got the ball rolling on all the other terrible things.  But, to me that was at least understandable.  Pride is a real thing that everyone suffers from to one degree or another. 

I'm sure Walt didn't think he was going to need to kill a bunch of people to stay alive and out of prison when he made that choice.  That is why I found Walt more sympathetic, at least probably up to Season 5.   He was trapped by a wrong, but not outright evil bad choice. 

The next decision that led to a lot more violence and tragedy was Walt refusing to take the $5 million buyout from Delcan.   It was similar, but far more abhorrent.  His family would have been set up very comfortably for the rest of their lives and he wouldn't have to be involved in any more drug business, violence or danger.  

I find Jimmy totally unsympathetic because he had multiple painless paths to a good, trouble free life, but chooses to be a scumbag.

By the time we meet him in BB, he is already worse than Walt is at the time of their meeting.   He casually suggests murdering a witness, which suggests he has arranged such things before. 

Really disagree with this. It seems obvious to me that someone with Walt's very high intelligence knows for a fact that getting into the methamphetimine production and distribution industry entails killing people, or working in concert with those that do. Walt chooses killing people over what Gretchen and Elliott offer. For the life of me, I've never understood how Walt could be seen sympathetically, at all, after season 1 ep 5 of BB. He was every bit as much a scumbag as Jimmy. We'll see how Kim's story goes. As long as it is well written, I'm fine with any outcome for her.

[Bryce Lynch]

13 minutes ago, scenario said:

Walt went into a business when he knew right from the start that his product was going to kill people. He wanted to get enough money together to let his family live comfortably when he was dead. You don't make hundreds of thousands of dollars in the drug business in a couple of years as a low end dealer. He would have to rise to at least the middle of the pack quickly to get that kind of money. Rising that far that fast is going to involve violence.

As smart a man as Walt was he knew right from the start that he was going to have to kill people at least indirectly sooner or later. 

At this point in our story Saul is a lawyer looking to make as much money as possible in any way possible. The scams he's pulling are wrong but they aren't likely to kill anyone. Any lawyer who defends criminals may end up indirectly causing someones death by getting the wrong person out of prison. 

Personally while I find scamming wrong, I don't put it in the same category as someone who knowingly kills or allows many people to dies. Walt's plan at best would have led to many overdoses and gang killings. Saul and Kim's plan's at this point don't necessarily lead to anyone dying. 

If Chuck had let Jimmy work as a lawyer in the firm or associated with the firm but put in a whole boatload of restrictions, Jimmy would have agreed to them. He wouldn't have liked them but he lived to make Chuck happy. When Chuck did what he did, he just didn't care anymore. 

I can understand Kim up to a point. I've worked in places that made me so uncomfortable that I just didn't give a damn anymore. It's clear that Kim doesn't really want to be a big time lawyer. She was fine when it was doing government paperwork but when she was expected to kick an old man out of his home, she didn't want to do it. The fact that the company was right and the old man wrong didn't make it any better.  

Walt never thought he was going to kill anybody.  He figured he would be selling a superior, purer product to people who were already meth users   Now, that might have been naive, but it was clear that in the beginning he wanted no part of violence.

He agonized over killing Krazy-8, despite the fact that Krazy-8 was about to kill him in the desert.  He was about to release him, when he realized that he had kept the broken piece of the plate as a knife.   

Little by little, after feeling compelled to commit acts of violence for self-preservation, he became more and more comfortable with it.   

That is what made Walt's character so fascinating and believable to me. 

Saul and Kim were never in desperate circumstances where they needed to do scummy things to survive.  

 

[Bryce Lynch]

18 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Really disagree with this. It seems obvious to me that someone with Walt's very high intelligence knows for a fact that getting into the methamphetimine production and distribution industry entails killing people, or working in concert with those that do. Walt chooses killing people over what Gretchen and Elliott offer. For the life of me, I've never understood how Walt could be seen sympathetically, at all, after season 1 ep 5 of BB. He was every bit as much a scumbag as Jimmy. We'll see how Kim's story goes. As long as it is well written, I'm fine with any outcome for her.

Walt knew ZERO about the meth business.  He was shown to be a brilliant but rather sheltered and naive individual, particularly at his birthday party.  Remember how awkward he was holding Hank's gun, and how reluctant he was to go on a ride along with Hank?

He was bullied by his boss at the car wash, henpecked by his wife and didn't even know which credit card he was supposed to use to buy copy paper.  

That is why he recruited Jesse.  Walt thought he could just cook and find a mid level or high level dealer to buy his product in bulk.  He thought he could be like Pryce on BCS, except produce the drugs, instead of stealing them.  

Remember how he asked Jesse about Krazy-8 when he was bike locked in the basement?  He thought that because he was "a man of business" he could be reasoned with.   He was even about to let him go (and get himself killed).  

A huge part of the story was how Walt went from that babe in the woods to an apex predator.   

[Bannon]

10 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Walt knew ZERO about the meth business.  He was shown to be a brilliant but rather sheltered and naive individual, particularly at his birthday party.  Remember how awkward he was holding Hank's gun, and how reluctant he was to go on a ride along with Hank?

He was bullied by his boss at the car wash, henpecked by his wife and didn't even know which credit card he was supposed to use to buy copy paper.  

That is why he recruited Jesse.  Walt thought he could just cook and find a mid level or high level dealer to buy his product in bulk.  He thought he could be like Pryce on BCS, except produce the drugs, instead of stealing them.  

Remember how he asked Jesse about Krazy-8 when he was bike locked in the basement?  He thought that because he was "a man of business" he could be reasoned with.   He was even about to let him go (and get himself killed).  

A huge part of the story was how Walt went from that babe in the woods to an apex predator.   

You are portraying Walt as an idiot savant. There was not a single person with an IQ greater than 60 in Albuquerque, in the years portrayed, who did not know that being involved in the meth business was to countenance homicide. No, Walt didn't want to directly kill anybody at first, but so what? Selling meth kills people, period, and Walt just lied to himself about his culpability, because he disliked being honest with himself and others.

[ShadowFacts]

2 hours ago, Bannon said:

If the worst thing she does is cheat Mesa Verde from getting the optimal transaction on a parcel of land in Tucumcari, well, hell,  I don't excuse it, but  I personally know about 5 lawyers who have done worse than that.

She's doing one of the worst things a lawyer can do, i.e. actively working against a client.  You must know some pretty bad ones, don't hire them! 😉

[Bryce Lynch]

43 minutes ago, Bannon said:

You are portraying Walt as an idiot savant. There was not a single person with an IQ greater than 60 in Albuquerque, in the years portrayed, who did not know that being involved in the meth business was to countenance homicide. No, Walt didn't want to directly kill anybody at first, but so what? Selling meth kills people, period, and Walt just lied to himself about his culpability, because he disliked being honest with himself and others.

"You're the smartest guy I ever met.  But, you're too stupid to see...he made up his mind 10 minutes ago." - ASAC Hank Schraeder 

Remember, even with Jesse's help, back in season one, Walt couldn't even figure out that you can roll a stolen barrel of methylamine.

Gale also thought he could cook meth without anyone getting hurt.  His reasoning was that people were going to use meth whether he made it or not and at least from him they would get a high quality, unadulterated product.   

Edited March 19, 2020 by Bryce Lynch

[sistermagpie]

48 minutes ago, Bannon said:

You are portraying Walt as an idiot savant. There was not a single person with an IQ greater than 60 in Albuquerque, in the years portrayed, who did not know that being involved in the meth business was to countenance homicide. No, Walt didn't want to directly kill anybody at first, but so what? Selling meth kills people, period, and Walt just lied to himself about his culpability, because he disliked being honest with himself and others.

 

13 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

"You're the smartest guy I ever met.  But, you're too stupid to see...he made up his mind 10 minutes ago." - ASAC Hank Schraeder 

Remember, even with Jesse's help, back in season one, Walt couldn't even figure out that you can roll a stolen barrel of methylamine.

Gale also thought he could cook meth without anyone getting hurt. 

Those are different types of things to not understand, though, and in Walt's case even if he presumably imagined himself at first only killing people in the sense that he was making a product that kills people all the time just through using it. Or he assumed that once he sold his product the dealers would be killing each other without him killing anyone directly.

But I think later in the show he pretty much admitted that he was fine with killing. He was already lying by claiming it was about supporting his family. Walt liked being Heisenberg, including the killing, so it's hard for me to believe he was really that shocked about that being part of the business.

Jimmy and Kim seem actually very much like Walt to me here, actually. Walt became a meth dealer because however much he'd been "asleep" and defeated for years, he was a man who craved people acknowledging his superiority. Likewise Jimmy and Kim love to feel like they're outsmarting people, especially big shots.

One can look at Jimmy as being a bad influence on Kim in this ep or Kim being a bad influence on Jimmy but I agree with the person who said they're more like Jesse and Jane, two addicts who were always going to use and were attracted to each other because they saw that other person getting them closer to using.

[PeterPirate]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Walt knew ZERO about the meth business.  He was shown to be a brilliant but rather sheltered and naive individual, particularly at his birthday party.  Remember how awkward he was holding Hank's gun, and how reluctant he was to go on a ride along with Hank?

 

30 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

"You're the smartest guy I ever met.  But, you're too stupid to see...he made up his mind 10 minutes ago." - ASAC Hank Schraeder 

Well, now I'm curious to know how stupid you think Walt was before he started cooking meth. 

Do you believe Walt knew that cooking meth was an illegal activity? 

Do you believe Walk knew that Hank's job was to arrest people who engaged in illegal activities like cooking meth?

Do you believe Walt knew that Hank carried his gun because people who got arrested sometimes shot at law enforcement officers? 

[Clanstarling]

On 3/17/2020 at 8:45 AM, Ed- said:

For some reason when Howard said "Oh, and Jimmy?" on the phone, and Jimmy hung up, I thought it could have realistically followed by something positive like "-- by the way, the Sandpiper payment came through, congratulations, you deserved it" (I vaguely remember Jimmy having a 20% stake in that, but I could be wrong). It also seems like Howard is ready to make Jimmy an equal partner at HHM, despite Jimmy's every flaw.

I didn't think of that, but I have been wondering when he might get the Sandpiper settlement.

On 3/17/2020 at 8:47 AM, ShadowFacts said:

He knows.  There may not ever be ethics panel level of proof of it, but to know you have a member of your firm actively working against a client, they have to go.  The mere appearance or suspicion of it would be so damaging.

The way he carefully parsed his words seemed a way to both put Kim on notice, while maintaining an appearance of ignorance. He doesn't want to fire her, and I'm guessing he doesn't like Kevin (who would?). But he knows if she doesn't stop, he'll have to do something about it.

On 3/17/2020 at 9:37 AM, Bannon said:

I'm still looking for the reason why Kim gives a damn about Ackers, beyond a generic dislike of evictions, due to childhood experiences, especially since Ackers (who really is just a run of the mill A-hole) tossed that experience back in her face. Or, failing that, some insight as to why she hates Kevin (who, all in all, has been pretty decent to her) so much that she would take risky, unethical, action to harm Mesa Verde. "I love Jimmy" just doesn't work here, because you can love Jimmy with all your heart, and still have no motivation to hook him up with Ackers the A-hole. Really hope the arc has a payoff in terms of illuminating character.

My take is more that she was actually hurt. I think she was totally sincere with her story, and to have it thrown back at her as a lie made her both hurt and indignant, and she wanted to prove to him (and herself) that she was in it for the little guy.

On 3/17/2020 at 11:14 AM, peeayebee said:

I'm not quite sure about this scene either. It looked like Kim wanted the argument to be public. Was it to show Rich that she wasn't afraid of him? that he can't intimidate her? that she's in control? that she's strong? I can't really pinpoint it.

I'm not that nuanced, but for me that scene was kind of like a fight leading up to a divorce. You push and push to make the other person be the one to say the irrevocable words. As in "you're fired." Which I could see happening at HHM, but not so much at this firm.

 

On 3/17/2020 at 9:20 PM, LittleIggy said:

Tio Hector Salamanca killed Gus Fring. Blowed him up good! Blowed him up real good!

If I recall correctly, it was Walt's idea - making him an accessory at least. But yeah, blowed both of them up good.

[Bannon]

35 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

"You're the smartest guy I ever met.  But, you're too stupid to see...he made up his mind 10 minutes ago." - ASAC Hank Schraeder 

Remember, even with Jesse's help, back in season one, Walt couldn't even figure out that you can roll a stolen barrel of methylamine.

Gale also thought he could cook meth without anyone getting hurt.  His reasoning was that people were going to use meth whether he made it or not and at least from him they would get a high quality, unadulterated product.   

Thinking you can talk yourself out of a desperate situation has exactly nothing to do with a brilliant chemical engineer knowing that meth kills people, and any citizen with an i.q. above 60 knowing that involvement in the meth trade means involvement with murderers. Hell, Walt turned down Gretchen and Elliott's offer after Walt had personally killed people! The idea that Walt did not know, even if not in detail, that the meth business was the murder business, from day one, but especially by the time he turned down the offer by Gretchen and Elliott, is really dubious.

Gale just liked lying to himself, too, so he could pursue the chemistry he liked.

[Bannon]

59 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

She's doing one of the worst things a lawyer can do, i.e. actively working against a client.  You must know some pretty bad ones, don't hire them! 😉

I have observed, more than once, two lawyers, when each has a client with deep pockets and emotions rubbed raw, do subtle things to deepen a conflict, instead of trying to defuse it in a way that would be in everyone's best interest. It has been by no means frequent; the vast majority give frank advice to cut the best deal that can be cut, short of unreasonable surrender. There have been some exceptions. I've also seen some run of the mill clock running, boosting billable hours beyond what the client really needed. Lawyers live on the bell curve like everybody else, when it comes to ethics.

[Bryce Lynch]

10 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

 

Well, now I'm curious to know how stupid you think Walt was before he started cooking meth. 

Do you believe Walt knew that cooking meth was an illegal activity? 

Do you believe Walk knew that Hank's job was to arrest people who engaged in illegal activities like cooking meth?

Do you believe Walt knew that Hank carried his gun because people who got arrested sometimes shot at law enforcement officers? 

Obviously Walt knew it was illegal.  But, I think the writers made it crystal clear (no pun intended) that, in the beginning, he had NO idea what he was getting into.  Like, Gale, Walt naively thought he could just replace a portion of the local meth supply with a superior product, 

What Walt did was wrong, but there is no way he thought, "I'll cook some meth, it will kill X number of tweakers, and I will also have to kill X number of rival drug dealers, and indirectly cause a plane crash that kills 167 people....."

Walt was brilliant in chemistry and science in general.  But, he was clueless in many other things and was socially awkward.   When Elliot offered him the job, he didn't even pick up on the fact that it was an act of charity until Elliot raved about how great the health plan was.  

It really wasn't until Tuco beat up Jesse and stole their meth that Walt started to understand the meth business and got tough.   

[ShadowFacts]

2 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I have observed, more than once, two lawyers, when each has a client with deep pockets and emotions rubbed raw, do subtle things to deepen a conflict, instead of trying to defuse it in a way that would be in everyone's best interest. It has been by no means frequent; the vast majority give frank advice to cut the best deal that can be cut, short of unreasonable surrender. There have been some exceptions. I've also seen some run of the mill clock running, boosting billable hours beyond what the client really needed. Lawyers live on the bell curve like everybody else, when it comes to ethics.

What Kim is doing is outrageously unethical, beyond boosting hours, etc. She is directing someone to go out and do things to make something happen that the client expressly does not want to happen. It's malpractice. I like to think she is an outlier. She and Jimmy are the worst examples of what a lawyer should be.

16 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Gale just liked lying to himself, too, so he could pursue the chemistry he liked.

Unlike Gus, who in this episode told Mike he knows what he is. No trying to make himself feel good about it. Gotta love the self-aware criminals. 

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Obviously Walt knew it was illegal.  But, I think the writers made it crystal clear (no pun intended) that, in the beginning, he had NO idea what he was getting into.  Like, Gale, Walt naively thought he could just replace a portion of the local meth supply with a superior product, 

What Walt did was wrong, but there is no way he thought, "I'll cook some meth, it will kill X number of tweakers, and I will also have to kill X number of rival drug dealers, and indirectly cause a plane crash that kills 167 people....."

Walt was brilliant in chemistry and science in general.  But, he was clueless in many other things and was socially awkward.   When Elliot offered him the job, he didn't even pick up on the fact that it was an act of charity until Elliot raved about how great the health plan was.  

It really wasn't until Tuco beat up Jesse and stole their meth that Walt started to understand the meth business and got tough.   

Social awkwardness has exactly nothing to do with a brilliant chemical engineer knowing what meth, even meth of higher purity, does to the human brain, and again, Walt turned down Gretchen and Elliott's offer after he personally murdered two people.

9 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

What Kim is doing is outrageously unethical, beyond boosting hours, etc. She is directing someone to go out and do things to make something happen that the client expressly does not want to happen. It's malpractice. I like to think she is an outlier. She and Jimmy are the worst examples of what a lawyer should be.

Unlike Gus, who in this episode told Mike he knows what he is. No trying to make himself feel good about it. Gotta love the self-aware criminals. 

I really like how the dialogue between Gus and Mike is written. It makes me curious as to how Gus closes the deal with Mike.

[Bryce Lynch]

36 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Thinking you can talk yourself out of a desperate situation has exactly nothing to do with a brilliant chemical engineer knowing that meth kills people, and any citizen with an i.q. above 60 knowing that involvement in the meth trade means involvement with murderers. Hell, Walt turned down Gretchen and Elliott's offer after Walt had personally killed people! The idea that Walt did not know, even if not in detail, that the meth business was the murder business, from day one, but especially by the time he turned down the offer by Gretchen and Elliott, is really dubious.

Gale just liked lying to himself, too, so he could pursue the chemistry he liked.

Walt had an actual IQ of probably 160 or more.  But, his social IQ, especially when it came to things like the underworld of drug dealers.  was closer to 60.  

You might want to watch Season 1 again.  

I don't doubt that Walt was, in part lying to himself.  But, he was pretty good at convincing himself of those lies.

Jimmy is way past lying to himself at this point.  He is what he is, and I think that makes him less interesting than he was, while he was making the transformation.   

As for Kim, she still doesn't seem as self aware about what a foolish scumbag she has become.  But, I am starting to find her back and forth between good girl, ambitious talented lawyer and con artist, lowlife lawyer kind of tedious, at this point.  

It seems like she has convinced herself that Kevin is some sort of "villain" for wanting to take possession of his own land, that he paid for and that Acker had no legal or moral right to.   I think she is still deluding herself that she and Saul are using their powers for good in this case.  

It would be funny if Acker turned around and took maybe $50,000 and said he was looking to move all along, but wanted to squeeze more out of MV, and then Kim gets fired and or disbarred for helping the real villain con her best client and the man who gave her the job that made her career.  

[Bannon]

2 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Social awkwardness has exactly nothing to do with a brilliant chemical engineer knowing what meth, even meth of higher purity, does to the human brain, and again, Walt turned down Gretchen and Elliott's offer after he personally murdered two people.

I really like how the dialogue between Gus and Mike is written. It makes me curious as to how Gus closes the deal with Mike.

Oh, and I agree that Kim is wildly unethical. Screwing Mesa Verde out of it's optimal real estate transaction, however, compared to killing people, doesn't really register as awful villainy.

[Bryce Lynch]

4 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Oh, and I agree that Kim is wildly unethical. Screwing Mesa Verde out of it's optimal real estate transaction, however, compared to killing people, doesn't really register as awful villainy.

Yes, Kim is nowhere near as bad as Walt.  But, her fall just seems pointless.  There were reasons for Walt's fall.  He did some bad things and got sucked into doing even worse things to escape the consequences of the earlier things.  Later, he became a power mad egomaniac.  

With Kim it is more like, "Let's see, I can be a very rich, very successful banking lawyer, who can give tons to charity and spend most of my time doing pro bono work.  Or, I can throw it all away for the cheap thrills of conning people.  I choose the latter. "  

[Bannon]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Walt had an actual IQ of probably 160 or more.  But, his social IQ, especially when it came to things like the underworld of drug dealers.  was closer to 60.  

You might want to watch Season 1 again.  

I don't doubt that Walt was, in part lying to himself.  But, he was pretty good at convincing himself of those lies.

Jimmy is way past lying to himself at this point.  He is what he is, and I think that makes him less interesting than he was, while he was making the transformation.   

As for Kim, she still doesn't seem as self aware about what a foolish scumbag she has become.  But, I am starting to find her back and forth between good girl, ambitious talented lawyer and con artist, lowlife lawyer kind of tedious, at this point.  

It seems like she has convinced herself that Kevin is some sort of "villain" for wanting to take possession of his own land, that he paid for and that Acker had no legal or moral right to.   I think she is still deluding herself that she and Saul are using their powers for good in this case.  

It would be funny if Acker turned around and took maybe $50,000 and said he was looking to move all along, but wanted to squeeze more out of MV, and then Kim gets fired and or disbarred for helping the real villain con her best client and the man who gave her the job that made her career.  

Again, social IQ has nothing to do with Walt's knowledge of the effects of meth, or with the violence surrounding it's manufacture and distribution.  Yes, I remember all the ridiculous lies Walt told himself. They have nothing to do with low social i.q., and, actually, given the skill with which Walt manipulated everyone, except Mike or perhaps Gus, there really isn't much basis for saying he has a low social i.q.. People with that deficit lack the insight into social relations to manipulate effectively. Walt played Skyler, Walt Jr., Hank, Marie, and especially Jesse, like a virtuoso with a violin in his hands.

 

Just now, Bryce Lynch said:

Yes, Kim is nowhere near as bad as Walt.  But, her fall just seems pointless.  There were reasons for Walt's fall.  He did some bad things and got sucked into doing even worse things to escape the consequences of the earlier things.  Later, he became a power mad egomaniac.  

With Kim it is more like, "Let's see, I can be a very rich, very successful banking lawyer, who can give tons to charity and spend most of my time doing pro bono work.  Or, I can throw it all away for the cheap thrills of conning people.  I choose the latter. "  

Yeah, I'm really looking for some insight into her choices. Hopefully, it'll be coming, because I'm not quite buying it yet.

[PeterPirate]

21 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

What Walt did was wrong, but there is no way he thought, "I'll cook some meth, it will kill X number of tweakers, and I will also have to kill X number of rival drug dealers, and indirectly cause a plane crash that kills 167 people....."

 

But Walt did know Hank carried a gun because drug dealers regularly engage in violent behavior.  

 

17 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

You might want to watch Season 1 again.  

You are the only one holding your particular interpretation of Walt.  And that is your prerogative.  But nobody needs to watch the show again to learn anything more about what happened.  

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

Again, social IQ has nothing to do with Walt's knowledge of the effects of meth, or with the violence surrounding it's manufacture and distribution.  Yes, I remember all the ridiculous lies Walt told himself. They have nothing to do with low social i.q., and, actually, given the skill with which Walt manipulated everyone, except Mike or perhaps Gus, there really isn't much basis for saying he has a low social i.q.. People with that deficit lack the insight into social relations to manipulate effectively. Walt played Skyler, Walt Jr., Hank, Marie, and especially Jesse, like a virtuoso with a violin in his hands.

 

I don't want to go on forever with this but, Walt had any idea how violent it would become. 

Social IQ might not really be the operative thing here.  Walt had a very low "meth dealer IQ".  Even much later, Saul astutely told Walt and Jesse "You two suck at peddling meth."    

As he went along he deluded himself, but  I recall him saying something like "Nobody else gets hurt." after the Emilio and Krazy-8 incidents.    

[nodorothyparker]

Okay, guys, I know we all love Breaking Bad.  But this isn't the Breaking Bad board, although it might be hard to tell that from the overwhelming number of posts on this last page that are entirely about it.  It's fine to briefly talk about that show as it ties into what's happening on this one, but please remember this is a Better Call Saul episode thread within the Better Call Saul board.  Your posts should primarily be about this show.   

[Macnyc]

23 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

Okay, guys, I know we all love Breaking Bad.  But this isn't the Breaking Bad board, although it might be hard to tell that from the overwhelming number of posts on this last page that are entirely about it.  It's fine to briefly talk about that show as it ties into what's happening on this one, but please remember this is a Better Call Saul episode thread within the Better Call Saul board.  Your posts should primarily be about this show.   

Thanks for posting this! I have never seen Breaking Bad. Yes, I know that’s somewhat unusual, but I’m not the only one in this position. And now I know that Gus gets killed! 😆

[SoWindsor]

On 3/17/2020 at 12:14 PM, Irlandesa said:

Gilligan isn't part of the day-to-day of the show any longer.  While the show is still enjoyable to me and well constructed, I do think there's a marked difference in character development compared to the first few seasons when he was in the writers room.

I would imagine that VG still had the main characters fleshed out as well as the major storylines through the series finale.

 

[JudyObscure]

On 3/18/2020 at 9:26 AM, Bryce Lynch said:

He has some interesting insights, but I think he was too tough on Kim and way too easy on Saul.

I think he shares the common wrong idea that hypocrisy is the greatest of all sins.  The fact the Saul is more comfortable being a scumbag and more self aware about it than Kim, makes him a worse person, not a better one.

 

Oh my gosh I hate that review!  You're  so right that he's too hard on Kim and that he thinks hypocrisy is the greatest sin. What's more I don't think he knows exactly  what  a hypocrite is.  Kim may be conflicted, she may be doing all sorts of unethical things right now, but that doesn't make her a hypocrite, she's not teaching ethics classes and using herself as  an example of perfection and then running scams at night.  Then to say she's  worse than Jimmy because she draws the line at having Mister  X kill a man?  That makes  Kim an arrogant bitch?   I don't see any of that.

[Clanstarling]

26 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Oh my gosh I hate that review!  You're  so right that he's too hard on Kim and that he thinks hypocrisy is the greatest sin. What's more I don't think he knows exactly  what  a hypocrite is.  Kim may be conflicted, she may be doing all sorts of unethical things right now, but that doesn't make her a hypocrite, she's not teaching ethics classes and using herself as  an example of perfection and then running scams at night.  Then to say she's  worse than Jimmy because she draws the line at having Mister  X kill a man?  That makes  Kim an arrogant bitch?   I don't see any of that.

I have a knee jerk reaction - I dismiss the opinion and think less of anyone who calls a woman a bitch, when it is intended to criticize their behavior (in other words, not current pop usage). I may be overly sensitive to it - but in my experience it's only ever been used by men who just don't like women behaving in ways that aren't subservient.

There are plenty of other invectives to use that don't carry that connotation.

Edited March 20, 2020 by Clanstarling

[Irlandesa]

3 hours ago, SoWindsor said:

I would imagine that VG still had the main characters fleshed out as well as the major storylines through the series finale.

 

According to him, that's not really the way VG works.  I think he knew some broad strokes of where Walt would end up.  And we all know the broad strokes of where Jimmy ends up because of Breaking Bad. But who the characters come develops as the writing goes on.  For instance, it doesn't sound like they planned for Howard to want to hire Jimmy and for it to actually be Chuck preventing it.  That naturally developed as they plotted out season 1.

 

 

 

[Dev F]

7 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

My take is more that she was actually hurt. I think she was totally sincere with her story, and to have it thrown back at her as a lie made her both hurt and indignant, and she wanted to prove to him (and herself) that she was in it for the little guy.

Exactly. Ditto her blow-up at Schweikart -- she wasn't playing him for some yet-unknown reason; she was genuinely hurt that Rich thought she might be behaving unethically. It's what the show has been showing us about Kim since the middle of last season: that she'll do absolutely anything to escape the nagging feeling that she's becoming a heartless corporate lawyer.

And the thing is, I think on some level Kim has convinced herself that she isn't behaving unethically here, that she's only betraying her client in order to save him. It's totally delusional, but you can see the string of desperate choices that led her down that path. First she offers her personal resources to try to convince Acker to sell at no cost to Mesa Verde. When Acker dismisses that idea as a corporate scan, she proposes an alternate call center site that's just as good and hopes that Kevin will agree to it out of the goodness of his heart -- that is, that he'll prove Acker wrong. When he refuses, she enlists Jimmy to sow some temporary chaos in the hopes of changing Kevin's mind. And only when that fails, and Kim has come to see Kevin as obstructing her perfect win-win solution just to be a rich, stubborn prick -- i.e., to see him as exactly the kind of person she most doesn't want to be -- that she signs off on going after him directly. In her mind, she's not working against Kevin and Mesa Verde's interests, she's saving them from their own worst impulses.

Edited March 20, 2020 by Dev F

[PeterPirate]

5 hours ago, Dev F said:

Exactly. Ditto her blow-up at Schweikart -- she wasn't playing him for some yet-unknown reason; she was genuinely hurt that Rich thought she might be behaving unethically. It's what the show has been showing us about Kim since the middle of last season: that she'll do absolutely anything to escape the nagging feeling that she's becoming a heartless corporate lawyer.

And the thing is, I think on some level Kim has convinced herself that she isn't behaving unethically here, that she's only betraying her client in order to save him. It's totally delusional, but you can see the string of desperate choices that led her down that path. First she offers her personal resources to try to convince Acker to sell at no cost to Mesa Verde. When Acker dismisses that idea as a corporate scan, she proposes an alternate call center site that's just as good and hopes that Kevin will agree to it out of the goodness of his heart -- that is, that he'll prove Acker wrong. When he refuses, she enlists Jimmy to sow some temporary chaos in the hopes of changing Kevin's mind. And only when that fails, and Kim has come to see Kevin as obstructing her perfect win-win solution just to be a rich, stubborn prick -- i.e., to see him as exactly the kind of person she most doesn't want to be -- that she signs off on going after him directly. In her mind, she's not working against Kevin and Mesa Verde's interests, she's saving them from their own worst impulses.

Another thought I had is that Kim first offered to recuse herself from handling Mesa Verde after Jimmy pulled his first legal stunt for Acker.  I wonder if she planned to call Jimmy off once Kevin allowed her to do so.    

I gave the video another look, and I still think it is pretty accurate when it comes to explaining Kim's behavior.  

Edited March 20, 2020 by PeterPirate

[ShadowFacts]

8 hours ago, Dev F said:

And only when that fails, and Kim has come to see Kevin as obstructing her perfect win-win solution just to be a rich, stubborn prick -- i.e., to see him as exactly the kind of person she most doesn't want to be -- that she signs off on going after him directly. In her mind, she's not working against Kevin and Mesa Verde's interests, she's saving them from their own worst impulses.

It's an interesting take, but I don't see her caring about saving Kevin from his own worst impulses, from being the kind of person she doesn't want to be.  We have seen her in the past as Giselle being happy to take down the greedy, wannabe suckers.  She enjoys that.  And interestingly in this episode she is Giselle again.  Whatever she's going to do with the info she gleaned from the photos from Mr. X, she's on the hunt for another take down. 

[Irlandesa]

6 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Another thought I had is that Kim first offered to recuse herself from handling Mesa Verde after Jimmy pulled his first legal stunt for Acker.  I wonder if she planned to call Jimmy off once Kevin allowed her to do so. 

Given the way they spoke, I think she expected that Kevin would tun down her offer.  I think she wanted him to.

[PeterPirate]

1 hour ago, Irlandesa said:

Given the way they spoke, I think she expected that Kevin would tun down her offer.  I think she wanted him to.

Interesting.  That didn't occur to me at all.  But now that I think about it, it does make some sense.  When Kim came home from the meeting with Kevin and Paige, Jimmy said it was "great" Kim was still on the Acker case.  He was also preparing the pottery shards for his next scam for Acker.  Regardless of Kim's intentions about recusing herself from the Acker case, she still wanted Jimmy to help Acker beat Mesa Verde. 

*****

I don't know about the rest of you, but the trailer at the end of the episode that I see is the one for this episode, not the next episode.  That got me to poke around at IMDB, and I found that the title of the next episode is

Spoiler

Wexler v. Goodman.  

And the cast list is double-spoiler worthy, because

Spoiler

"Kim's Mom" is one of the characters. 

 

  

Edited March 20, 2020 by PeterPirate

[qtpye]

21 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Walt had an actual IQ of probably 160 or more.  But, his social IQ, especially when it came to things like the underworld of drug dealers.  was closer to 60.  

You might want to watch Season 1 again.  

I don't doubt that Walt was, in part lying to himself.  But, he was pretty good at convincing himself of those lies.

Jimmy is way past lying to himself at this point.  He is what he is, and I think that makes him less interesting than he was, while he was making the transformation.   

As for Kim, she still doesn't seem as self aware about what a foolish scumbag she has become.  But, I am starting to find her back and forth between good girl, ambitious talented lawyer and con artist, lowlife lawyer kind of tedious, at this point.  

It seems like she has convinced herself that Kevin is some sort of "villain" for wanting to take possession of his own land, that he paid for and that Acker had no legal or moral right to.   I think she is still deluding herself that she and Saul are using their powers for good in this case.  

It would be funny if Acker turned around and took maybe $50,000 and said he was looking to move all along, but wanted to squeeze more out of MV, and then Kim gets fired and or disbarred for helping the real villain con her best client and the man who gave her the job that made her career.  

 

21 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Yes, Kim is nowhere near as bad as Walt.  But, her fall just seems pointless.  There were reasons for Walt's fall.  He did some bad things and got sucked into doing even worse things to escape the consequences of the earlier things.  Later, he became a power mad egomaniac.  

With Kim it is more like, "Let's see, I can be a very rich, very successful banking lawyer, who can give tons to charity and spend most of my time doing pro bono work.  Or, I can throw it all away for the cheap thrills of conning people.  I choose the latter. "  

 

21 hours ago, Bannon said:

Again, social IQ has nothing to do with Walt's knowledge of the effects of meth, or with the violence surrounding it's manufacture and distribution.  Yes, I remember all the ridiculous lies Walt told himself. They have nothing to do with low social i.q., and, actually, given the skill with which Walt manipulated everyone, except Mike or perhaps Gus, there really isn't much basis for saying he has a low social i.q.. People with that deficit lack the insight into social relations to manipulate effectively. Walt played Skyler, Walt Jr., Hank, Marie, and especially Jesse, like a virtuoso with a violin in his hands.

 

Yeah, I'm really looking for some insight into her choices. Hopefully, it'll be coming, because I'm not quite buying it yet.

 

14 hours ago, Dev F said:

Exactly. Ditto her blow-up at Schweikart -- she wasn't playing him for some yet-unknown reason; she was genuinely hurt that Rich thought she might be behaving unethically. It's what the show has been showing us about Kim since the middle of last season: that she'll do absolutely anything to escape the nagging feeling that she's becoming a heartless corporate lawyer.

And the thing is, I think on some level Kim has convinced herself that she isn't behaving unethically here, that she's only betraying her client in order to save him. It's totally delusional, but you can see the string of desperate choices that led her down that path. First she offers her personal resources to try to convince Acker to sell at no cost to Mesa Verde. When Acker dismisses that idea as a corporate scan, she proposes an alternate call center site that's just as good and hopes that Kevin will agree to it out of the goodness of his heart -- that is, that he'll prove Acker wrong. When he refuses, she enlists Jimmy to sow some temporary chaos in the hopes of changing Kevin's mind. And only when that fails, and Kim has come to see Kevin as obstructing her perfect win-win solution just to be a rich, stubborn prick -- i.e., to see him as exactly the kind of person she most doesn't want to be -- that she signs off on going after him directly. In her mind, she's not working against Kevin and Mesa Verde's interests, she's saving them from their own worst impulses.

Thank you for this post. It is the closest thing that has made sense in justifying her actions. I think Kim is one of the best written characters on television. This is further proven in that a video where someone seems to hate her fully admits to being fascinated by her arc since she is one of the few characters that we do not see in BB.

I was absolutely befuddled to why she was taking this course of action.

Kevin has been nothing but good to her and Acker is an asshole who thinks he is above the law. Being rich does not make Kevin evil and being poor does not make Acker noble.

If Kim is under the delusion that she is “is on the side of good” than she is truly delusional.

[DangerousMinds]

36 minutes ago, qtpye said:

 

 

 

Thank you for this post. It is the closest thing that has made sense in justifying her actions. I think Kim is one of the best written characters on television. This is further proven in that a video where someone seems to hate her fully admits to being fascinated by her arc since she is one of the few characters that we do not see in BB.

I was absolutely befuddled to why she was taking this course of action.

Kevin has been nothing but good to her and Acker is an asshole who thinks he is above the law. Being rich does not make Kevin evil and being poor does not make Acker noble.

If Kim is under the delusion that she is “is on the side of good” than she is truly delusional.

That said , Kevin also seems like an asshole, and not just because he’s rich.

[Bannon]

2 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Interesting.  That didn't occur to me at all.  But now that I think about it, it does make some sense.  When Kim came home from the meeting with Kevin and Paige, Jimmy said it was "great" Kim was still on the Acker case.  He was also preparing the pottery shards for his next scam for Acker.  Regardless of Kim's intentions about recusing herself from the Acker case, she still wanted Jimmy to help Acker beat Mesa Verde. 

*****

I don't know about the rest of you, but the trailer at the end of the episode that I see is the one for this episode, not the next episode.  That got me to poke around at IMDB, and I found that the title of the next episode is

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Wexler v. Goodman.  

And the cast list is double-spoiler worthy, because

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"Kim's Mom" is one of the characters. 

 

  

Spoiler

FINALLY! Some Kim Wexler history!

 

[shapeshifter]

16 hours ago, Dev F said:

Exactly. Ditto her blow-up at Schweikart -- she wasn't playing him for some yet-unknown reason; she was genuinely hurt that Rich thought she might be behaving unethically. It's what the show has been showing us about Kim since the middle of last season: that she'll do absolutely anything to escape the nagging feeling that she's becoming a heartless corporate lawyer.

And the thing is, I think on some level Kim has convinced herself that she isn't behaving unethically here, that she's only betraying her client in order to save him. It's totally delusional, but you can see the string of desperate choices that led her down that path. First she offers her personal resources to try to convince Acker to sell at no cost to Mesa Verde. When Acker dismisses that idea as a corporate scan, she proposes an alternate call center site that's just as good and hopes that Kevin will agree to it out of the goodness of his heart -- that is, that he'll prove Acker wrong. When he refuses, she enlists Jimmy to sow some temporary chaos in the hopes of changing Kevin's mind. And only when that fails, and Kim has come to see Kevin as obstructing her perfect win-win solution just to be a rich, stubborn prick -- i.e., to see him as exactly the kind of person she most doesn't want to be -- that she signs off on going after him directly. In her mind, she's not working against Kevin and Mesa Verde's interests, she's saving them from their own worst impulses.

This works. I had thought Kim had to have an ulterior motive for arguing loudly with Schweikart in front of everyone, but reading through @Dev F's post, I see it as Kim going over the edge. And now that I've seen it that way, it seems like it was there all along.