S15.E05: Proverbs 17:3

[Demian]

12 hours ago, Bobcatkitten said:

If you are watching this final season without watching the other seasons it's going to be a rough go for you. 

Understood.  But I feel some sort of bizarre need to see it through its conclusion, nevertheless. So, please forgive my absolutely stupid questions in advance.

12 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Or at least read some of the summaries/recaps.  

No thanks.

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

So this was an interesting shot. Even the way they are sitting they look like marionettes in a puppet show.

An interesting choice given Jensens outspoken remarks about the "marionette" fight.

I thought this was foreshadowing that the curtain is about to close on the show. 

[takalotti]

I’ve been gone from the forums here for a while because my passion for the show and analyzing it has dropped significantly. 

But this episode brought be back for one reason and no one has mentioned it so far (which is making me wonder if this has come up before and is old news).

As far as I’ve ever known, Castiel’s nickname is Cas. Spelled just like that. C-A-S. 

Hubs and I always watch with closed captioning on, and the CC always spells his name Cass. I find this annoying but roll my eyes at it as an unimportant mistake. CC certainly isn’t perfect. 

But tonight, Sam picked up his phone and the contact was spelled Cass and two of his messages had “Cass” in them. 

Is that really how it’s supposed to have been spelled this entered time??? Has Cas’ name ever been written on the show before, either as Cas or Cass?

So that’s why I came. But since I was here, I read all of the comments on this thread and just want to point out:

1) Of course they can kill God. They just have to kill Amara, too. The sun wasn’t going out because God was dying, it was going out because The Light was dying AND The Darkness was still in full force. It was the imbalance that threw off the universe. I agree with someone else who hopes they saved the gun blob. We’ve had angle blades, the first blade, archangel blades, so why not a God blade forged from the blob? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

2) For those wondering why the guys thought God was out of the picture and they were free, it’s because at the end of the season 14 finale he basically said “Fine, I’m out” right before he flitted away. 

Can someone remind me how to do spoiler tags? I haven’t figured it out here. (I’m on mobile if that matters)

Edited November 16, 2019 by takalotti

[juppschmitz]

2 hours ago, takalotti said:

1) Of course they can kill God. They just have to kill Amara, too. The sun wasn’t going out because God was dying, it was going out because The Light was dying AND The Darkness was still in full force. It was the imbalance that threw off the universe.

True. However, that would require anyone involved in the writing process to remember anything that's happened before 🤷🏽‍♀️

[PAForrest]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I thought this was foreshadowing that the curtain is about to close on the show. 

I think you nailed it, that's what it looks like to me with the curtains in the forefront that are open now, but soon to be closed.

I watched most of this one again - I did FF through the camping trip set up, because we get it, as well as the long-winded Dean mocking because that just sours the whole thing for me. Seriously, Speight could have cut that shtick down even a few seconds to include the cool Demon Dean jump through the air moment instead. Bad call.

Getting past those first five or so minutes, and having watched it already, the rest flows a little better than I thought it did the first time around. Of course, the werewolf brother bit is still overly heavy-handed fan fiction, and is only useful for revealing Lilith, given its lack of depth and subtlety. Though the actors themselves were decent, certainly the best part of the plot device.

I still don't like the fact that Dabb is seemingly pulling out all the original Apocalypse players if for no other reason than it makes no sense they can be resurrected, and continues to crap all over the original story. Granted I didn't think the original story ended well at all, but there was a lot of build up that was really good, and which is now being rendered entirely moot. Of course, I assume that's Dabb's intention.

All that being said, I do think the best part of the episode, aside from getting one last glimpse of Demon Dean, was in hiring the actress who played Lilith. Her performance was leaps and bounds better than that boring vacuous one we got the first time around. I really did enjoy watching this Lilith on screen, if I put aside the fact that she shouldn't be there at all.

So I give this episode points for hiring solid entertaining guest stars, given the many duds we've seen so far this year.

Edited November 16, 2019 by PAForrest

[Morrigan2575]

I love the continued inside joke about Jensen/Dean's hotness. It's an obvious joke when they say Dean is Old or Dean isn't hot because everyone knows Jensen is just so beautiful.

Looking at the old photo he looked as much like a baby as Sam did but, it just highlighted that Jensen is following in George Clooney's footsteps getting so much sexier with age.  

Also, major points to the costume department they have been on point with Dean's outfits in the last 2 episodes.

I picked up on the Sam/God dream connection early in the episode, between the previously and, the first "dream" I figured out what was up. I'm not sure if this is Chuck writing different drafts of the same ending for OUR Sam/Dean of if Sam is watching Chuck kill off ALL Sam/Dean combos.

I liked the fact that the whole mission was a fake out because it felt fake. I was worried it was just bad writing but, I guess that was intentional to show that Chuck is a hack.

I will say they got me with Lilith, I knew something was up with he, especially with the whole 'don't you just wish everything was plotted out for you'. I actually thought it was Chuck in disguise. Looking back now it should have been obvious when she walked in dressed like a Girl Scout (I noted how odd it was but, just figured it was part of a bad episode).

So bravo to the show for making a sort of meta but, not overly meta episode.

The final shot of the boys sitting in the bunker was beautiful and I like the theory that it was like the closing of a show (waiting for the curtains to fall). That's a very nice image.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Morrigan2575

[Lemuria]

9 hours ago, takalotti said:

:

1) Of course they can kill God. They just have to kill Amara, too. The sun wasn’t going out because God was dying, it was going out because The Light was dying AND The Darkness was still in full force. It was the imbalance that threw off the universe. I agree with someone else who hopes they saved the gun blob. We’ve had angle blades, the first blade, archangel blades, so why not a God blade forged from the blob? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

Actually, that won’t work.  According to the dialogue in 11.23:

“AMARA:

That's not me.

With my brother getting weaker, the scales are tipping away from light.

DEAN:

And into darkness. 

AMARA:

Into nothing.

When God's gone, the universe—everything will cease to exist.

Including me.”

So killing them both won’t stop creation from deconstructing. Everything will become the Empty. 

Edited November 16, 2019 by Lemuria

[Aeryn13]

3 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

Actually, that won’t work.  According to the dialogue in 11.23:

“AMARA:

That's not me.

With my brother getting weaker, the scales are tipping away from light.

DEAN:

And into darkness. 

AMARA:

Into nothing.

When God's gone, the universe—everything will cease to exist.

Including me.”

So killing them both won’t stop creation from deconstructing. Everything will become the Empty. 

That rather implies that you can't kill either one, either the scales tip away from light or from darkness but both times into nothing. So you eternally need both for balance.

[Morrigan2575]

12 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

That rather implies that you can't kill either one, either the scales tip away from light or from darkness but both times into nothing. So you eternally need both for balance.

I agree with your theory and I like that the world needs balance, both darkness and light, creation and destruction.

I'm wondering if the ending is sort of like Stargate's Oma/Anubis. Basically Oma couldn't kill Anubis but she could fight him for eternity, which would prevent him from destroying people/the universe. Amara goes 1 on 1 with Chuck neither winning but in a continuous battle that prevents him from playing "author" and the worlds go one with actual free will.

My worst thought ending (and I came up with it this morning) is it they go back to the Kripke/S5 finale, revealing that Chuck was God = Writer is God.

I had an awful thought of a St. Elsewhere type ending where instead of the whole show being the imagination of an Autistic boy we have the whole series be the writing/work of an author (Chuck), so a show within a show type thing.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Morrigan2575

[Casseiopeia]

Jensen's little laugh....

[foxfreakinmulder]

On ‎11‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 8:12 PM, KayCordingly said:

I loved this episode!

- wifey & I were cracking up at the ghost pepper jerky bit. She's convinced that they actually gave him .something spicy because his reaction looked real.

- we thought the people questioning Dean's younger I.D. was funny.

- I called it that Chuck was responsible for their hunt being too easy, but I totally did not see the Lilith twist coming. I thought it was very well done.

- I'm so glad that Sam told Dean about his dreams once he realized that they might be visions, and I totally buy him keeping them to himself because he thought they were just "messed up ptsd dreams".

- Really felt Dean's frustration at the end, although I wasn't quite on board with it. I mean, they've killed gods before. Plus (and I hope Dean eventually remembers this), Death said that he would eventually reap God, so at least trying to get Billie's help is still an option.

I agree with everything you said.

I've been re-watching episodes, and recently saw the one where Dean does a spell to bind Death to him to kill Castiel after he sucked in all those souls from purgatory and was calling himself God. So, like you, I'm hoping Dean remembers this. I just wish it was Julian Richings still playing death, he was so good.

[SueB]

If occurs to me that the dreams are actually how Chuck PLANNED but the boys’ decisions thwarted that draft.  
 

ETA, in order of thwarted ends  

1) Sam goes dark side via demon blood.  Thwarted by Dean/Bobby with Sam in panic room.  Angels CHEAT, and Lucifer rises.  Chuck CHEATS, and brings the boys back. 
2) Sam says yes to Lucifer. Thwarted by Dean showing up in Stull cemetery and Sam leaping into the pit. 
3) Demon!Dean.  Thwarted by ritual of purified blood AND Cas holding Dean. 
4) Dean makes a deal to go away with the Mark of Cain after killing Sam.  Thwarted by Dean killing Death. 
5) Michael!Dean kills everyone.   Thwarted by Death with Malloc box. Then thwarted by Sam with trust us speech. Finally thwarted by Jack taking the power.   No wonder Chuck is pissed at Death and Jack.  
 

So, I expect to see a S10 AU end and a S14 AU end at a minimum.  

Edited November 16, 2019 by SueB

[BabySpinach]

The only time I've ever related to Lilith was when she was making unabashed googly eyes at Dean. Like, same, girl!

I suppose if I had to choose between a lame hunt played straight and an intentionally lame hunt with a whole other twist and story included on the back end, I'd definitely pick the latter. And good on Yockey for still championing Divinity Magnet/Cosmically Important Dean. Regardless of whether it will amount to anything, I appreciate the effort. If Sam gets a direct connection to God, Dean at least deserves this for himself.

The actress for Lilith was really very good. Her confidence and charisma made her fun to watch and elevated her way beyond the typical young, attractive guest stars usually cast in these roles.

Demon!Dean's brief return was very welcome. Five years later and Jensen's still got it, not to mention he's barely aged since then! His expression while killing Sam was exquisite and chilling. 

Age joke was dumb. If it was intended to be misdirection (ie. Sam is the one who actually looks different, but for some reason people question Dean) then it should have been conveyed more clearly. 

My standards are rock-bottom right now, so I was mostly content. At least Dean's importance was alluded to and he had relevant stuff to do, plus we got some bonus Demon!Dean on top. 

[Castiels Cat]

2 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

The only time I've ever related to Lilith was when she was making unabashed googly eyes at Dean. Like, same, girl!

I suppose if I had to choose between a lame hunt played straight and an intentionally lame hunt with a whole other twist and story included on the back end, I'd definitely pick the latter. And good on Yockey for still championing Divinity Magnet/Cosmically Important Dean. Regardless of whether it will amount to anything, I appreciate the effort. If Sam gets a direct connection to God, Dean at least deserves this for himself.

The actress for Lilith was really very good. Her confidence and charisma made her fun to watch and elevated her way beyond the typical young, attractive guest stars usually cast in these roles.

Demon!Dean's brief return was very welcome. Five years later and Jensen's still got it, not to mention he's barely aged since then! His expression while killing Sam was exquisite and chilling. 

Age joke was dumb. If it was intended to be misdirection (ie. Sam is the one who actually looks different, but for some reason people question Dean) then it should have been conveyed more clearly. 

My standards are rock-bottom right now, so I was mostly content. At least Dean's importance was alluded to and he had relevant stuff to do, plus we got some bonus Demon!Dean on top. 

As bad as the writing and meta premise is they apparently rewatched the show and paid attention to little details like the fact that Chuck says to Dean twice in a 5... you are not supposed to be here. This is not what I wrote.

He saves Sam from Lilith using Chuck and he makes Chuck tell him where the battle will be fought and shows up at Stull which changes the outcome.

Taken together with the s 11 finale and s 14 finale one can say that Dean is the one character that has the tendency to go off script. He is free will in its truest expression. Chuck liked it and he liked Dean so he allowed it even though it threw him off guard until Moriah.

So yeah Dean is all kinds of special. Chuck allowed the ending to be changed and this Earth to go on because... Dean. The writers appear to recognize this. They appear to be aware of pivotal canon points for Dean and Sam. Good. That's about all they have going for them.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

2 hours ago, SueB said:

If occurs to me that the dreams are actually how Chuck PLANNED but the boys’ decisions thwarted that draft.  
 

ETA, in order of thwarted ends  

1) Sam goes dark side via demon blood.  Thwarted by Dean/Bobby with Sam in panic room.  Angels CHEAT, and Lucifer rises.  Chuck CHEATS, and brings the boys back. 
2) Sam says yes to Lucifer. Thwarted by Dean showing up in Stull cemetery and Sam leaping into the pit. 
3) Demon!Dean.  Thwarted by ritual of purified blood AND Cas holding Dean. 
4) Dean makes a deal to go away with the Mark of Cain after killing Sam.  Thwarted by Dean killing Death. 
5) Michael!Dean kills everyone.   Thwarted by Death with Malloc box. Then thwarted by Sam with trust us speech. Finally thwarted by Jack taking the power.   No wonder Chuck is pissed at Death and Jack.  
 

So, I expect to see a S10 AU end and a S14 AU end at a minimum.  

Yes and No. They are set in the bunker. He is going back to earlier drafts and reworking them taking into account the last ten years too. 

I think he is simply removing all of the times he allowed Dean to save Sam and vice versa.

2 hours ago, SueB said:

If occurs to me that the dreams are actually how Chuck PLANNED but the boys’ decisions thwarted that draft.  
 

ETA, in order of thwarted ends  

1) Sam goes dark side via demon blood.  Thwarted by Dean/Bobby with Sam in panic room.  Angels CHEAT, and Lucifer rises.  Chuck CHEATS, and brings the boys back. 
2) Sam says yes to Lucifer. Thwarted by Dean showing up in Stull cemetery and Sam leaping into the pit. 
3) Demon!Dean.  Thwarted by ritual of purified blood AND Cas holding Dean. 
4) Dean makes a deal to go away with the Mark of Cain after killing Sam.  Thwarted by Dean killing Death. 
5) Michael!Dean kills everyone.   Thwarted by Death with Malloc box. Then thwarted by Sam with trust us speech. Finally thwarted by Jack taking the power.   No wonder Chuck is pissed at Death and Jack.  
 

So, I expect to see a S10 AU end and a S14 AU end at a minimum.  

Are 4 and 5 in a promo. I speculated these as possibilities in a post but haven't seen them.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

7 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I love the continued inside joke about Jensen/Dean's hotness. It's an obvious joke when they say Dean is Old or Dean isn't hot because everyone knows Jensen is just so beautiful.

Looking at the old photo he looked as much like a baby as Sam did but, it just highlighted that Jensen is following in George Clooney's footsteps getting so much sexier with age.  

Also, major points to the costume department they have been on point with Dean's outfits in the last 2 episodes.

I picked up on the Sam/God dream connection early in the episode, between the previously and, the first "dream" I figured out what was up. I'm not sure if this is Chuck writing different drafts of the same ending for OUR Sam/Dean of if Sam is watching Chuck kill off ALL Sam/Dean combos.

I liked the fact that the whole mission was a fake out because it felt fake. I was worried it was just bad writing but, I guess that was intentional to show that Chuck is a hack.

I will say they got me with Lilith, I knew something was up with he, especially with the whole 'don't you just wish everything was plotted out for you'. I actually thought it was Chuck in disguise. Looking back now it should have been obvious when she walked in dressed like a Girl Scout (I noted how odd it was but, just figured it was part of a bad episode).

So bravo to the show for making a sort of meta but, not overly meta episode.

The final shot of the boys sitting in the bunker was beautiful and I like the theory that it was like the closing of a show (waiting for the curtains to fall). That's a very nice image.

I think he's only mad at this Dean so he's testing out drafts to decide how to get his perfect ending. We know he can impact their lives because he is also writing horrible final drafts of motw hunts with subtext designed just for them. Dean shoots the murderous monster in the head which he was supposed to do to Jack. One brother kills the other which was the original ending of the Winchester Gospels.

The only reason that the other drafts aren't happening is because they are not finalized. We know that he is writing them for Dean and Sam because he asked their number one fan for her opinion and made her disappear when she hated it.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

15 hours ago, takalotti said:

I’ve been gone from the forums here for a while because my passion for the show and analyzing it has dropped significantly. 

But this episode brought be back for one reason and no one has mentioned it so far (which is making me wonder if this has come up before and is old news).

As far as I’ve ever known, Castiel’s nickname is Cas. Spelled just like that. C-A-S. 

Hubs and I always watch with closed captioning on, and the CC always spells his name Cass. I find this annoying but roll my eyes at it as an unimportant mistake. CC certainly isn’t perfect. 

But tonight, Sam picked up his phone and the contact was spelled Cass and two of his messages had “Cass” in them. 

Is that really how it’s supposed to have been spelled this entered time??? Has Cas’ name ever been written on the show before, either as Cas or Cass?

So that’s why I came. But since I was here, I read all of the comments on this thread and just want to point out:

1) Of course they can kill God. They just have to kill Amara, too. The sun wasn’t going out because God was dying, it was going out because The Light was dying AND The Darkness was still in full force. It was the imbalance that threw off the universe. I agree with someone else who hopes they saved the gun blob. We’ve had angle blades, the first blade, archangel blades, so why not a God blade forged from the blob? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

2) For those wondering why the guys thought God was out of the picture and they were free, it’s because at the end of the season 14 finale he basically said “Fine, I’m out” right before he flitted away. 

Can someone remind me how to do spoiler tags? I haven’t figured it out here. (I’m on mobile if that matters)

The writers stupidly spell it Cass.

The world ends if God dies. This was a plot point in a 11. They went to a bar to drink away their depression.  Killing Amara by exploding Dean whilst Chick faded away meant the end of everything. Dean saved the world with his beautiful speech and family therapy.

4 hours ago, foxfreakinmulder said:

I agree with everything you said.

I've been re-watching episodes, and recently saw the one where Dean does a spell to bind Death to him to kill Castiel after he sucked in all those souls from purgatory and was calling himself God. So, like you, I'm hoping Dean remembers this. I just wish it was Julian Richings still playing death, he was so good.

Per s 11, killing God ends everything. They can lock him away.

[juppschmitz]

2 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

If Sam gets a direct connection to God, Dean at least deserves this for himself.

I bet Chuck secretly hoped to get shot by Dean so he'd have the connection with him. Bet he's pissed he ended up with Sam seeing as how he apparently "perves" on Dean. I mean, who wouldn't...

Edited November 16, 2019 by juppschmitz

[Castiels Cat]

2 minutes ago, juppschmitz said:

I bet Chuck secretly hoped to get shot by Dean so he'd have the connection with him. Bet he's pissed he ended up with Sam seeing as how he apparently "perves" on Dean. I mean, who have wouldn't...

He may just have Dean shoot Sam then.

However that's the harder story to successfully execute I think. Dean goes off script and Dean's primary objective is Save Sammy at his own risk. Everything was engineered for Dean to shoot Jack and he didn't. 

The safest bet is to write a corrupted Sam killing Dean story.

[Aeryn13]

13 minutes ago, juppschmitz said:

I bet Chuck secretly hoped to get shot by Dean so he'd have the connection with him. Bet he's pissed he ended up with Sam seeing as how he apparently "perves" on Dean. I mean, who have wouldn't...

Now I don`t even what to know what Chuck might have done with those sweet innocent little funko pop at the end of last episode once the screen faded to black. 😧

[juppschmitz]

12 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Now I don`t even what to know what Chuck might have done with those sweet innocent little funko pop at the end of last episode once the screen faded to black. 😧

I haven't seen the episode, so I don't understand that reference... 😄

[Castiels Cat]

17 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Now I don`t even what to know what Chuck might have done with those sweet innocent little funko pop at the end of last episode once the screen faded to black. 😧

That was truly pervy.

[Aeryn13]

16 minutes ago, juppschmitz said:

I haven't seen the episode, so I don't understand that reference... 😄

At the end of the last episode, after Chuck had vanished Becky, he was seen typing away at her computer, with little funko pops of Dean and Sam (from Becky`s collection) next to him. That was actually a clever little meta nod on how the Winchesters are just toys to him. 

But now I`m imagining what pervy things he could have done to the little Dean funko pop. I have one at home, it`s cute and innocent. Even though it holds a little knife. 😄    

[Dobian]

Sam killed Dean a different way in his dream this week.  And the Dean killed Sam.  I guess Chuck is doing rewrites.  He’s not very original.  If he wanted to end it right, he’d have Sam/Dean run over Dean/Sam with the beloved Impala.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Dobian

[juppschmitz]

8 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

At the end of the last episode, after Chuck had vanished Becky, he was seen typing away at her computer, with little funko pops of Dean and Sam (from Becky`s collection) next to him. That was actually a clever little meta nod on how the Winchesters are just toys to him. 

But now I`m imagining what pervy things he could have done to the little Dean funko pop. I have one at home, it`s cute and innocent. Even though it holds a little knife. 😄    

Thanks for elaborating, and yes, the mind boggles... 😄

[Castiels Cat]

14 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

At the end of the last episode, after Chuck had vanished Becky, he was seen typing away at her computer, with little funko pops of Dean and Sam (from Becky`s collection) next to him. That was actually a clever little meta nod on how the Winchesters are just toys to him. 

But now I`m imagining what pervy things he could have done to the little Dean funko pop. I have one at home, it`s cute and innocent. Even though it holds a little knife. 😄    

Nicely put.

[annspal]

On 11/15/2019 at 7:35 AM, icemiser69 said:

I am getting tired of these retread characters.  I should have seen it coming given the way last season ended and how it is following through into this season.

So,  Chuck and Sam are in each others heads.  So in theory, Sam should either see what Chuck is going to do before it happens.   Perhaps Sam can gain some control over Chuck or influence Chuck subsconciously somehow.

I love that it's being made clear the characters/stories ARE retreads! We've already had an ANDY... kill his evil brother... to save Dean. (Season 2 Simon Said)  Let's get Sam and Dean noticing that and the other "coincidences" (like Dean and Jessica having the same birthday,"Castiel" being invoked during Season 3's Red Sky, etc.). Just because it's becoming explicit in the narrative now doesn't mean it's new at all.  Let's see Sam and Dean wonder harder about when the recycling began and WHY.  

The idea of needing to STOP / STOP IT showed up again in this episode, and that is feeling huge to me.

As for the bolded.... YES!! The Winchesters should remember Season 2 Andy's talent for sending out thoughts and images! (Not unlike the Trickster's "It'll feel real" illusions or the Djinn's altered reality dreams?) I am pretty afraid, though, that any harmless tea party distraction they'd come up with for God!Chuck would turn bad like Season 4's wishes. 

Editing because I forgot to include the thought that someone needs to remember that it was a WEREWOLF HUNT story that Sam wrote that impressed his teacher back in the day!

Edited November 17, 2019 by annspal

[SueB]

4 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Yes and No. They are set in the bunker. He is going back to earlier drafts and reworking them taking into account the last ten years too. 

I think he is simply removing all of the times he allowed Dean to save Sam and vice versa.

Are 4 and 5 in a promo. I speculated these as possibilities in a post but haven't seen them.

No, just counting up the number of destiny thwarted moments. No indication at all that 4 and 5 will ever appear on screen. 

[takalotti]

10 hours ago, Lemuria said:

Actually, that won’t work.  According to the dialogue in 11.23:

“AMARA:

That's not me.

With my brother getting weaker, the scales are tipping away from light.

DEAN:

And into darkness. 

AMARA:

Into nothing.

When God's gone, the universe—everything will cease to exist.

Including me.”

So killing them both won’t stop creation from deconstructing. Everything will become the Empty. 

Ah, thank you for correcting me! 😁

Yeah, then I guess they gotta lock ’em up. 
 

I’d be curious if either of the guys have wondered “Okay, so hypothetically speaking, what if things play out the way Chuck wants? What if one of us kills the other? Does that mean that’s the end of his writing for this universe? Were all the monsters and demons and crap just dredged up over and over to mess with us, meaning once our story is done then there’s no reason to have monsters and demons and crap anymore and there can be peace on earth, free will for men (and women)? Are we in a catch 22 where we think we have to stick around to protect everyone, but actually if one of us ends the other then there’s nothing we have to protect people FROM?”

[PAForrest]

18 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

The only time I've ever related to Lilith was when she was making unabashed googly eyes at Dean. Like, same, girl!

I suppose if I had to choose between a lame hunt played straight and an intentionally lame hunt with a whole other twist and story included on the back end, I'd definitely pick the latter. And good on Yockey for still championing Divinity Magnet/Cosmically Important Dean. Regardless of whether it will amount to anything, I appreciate the effort. If Sam gets a direct connection to God, Dean at least deserves this for himself.

I admit part of the reason this Lilith was so good, aside from the fact that the actress could genuinely act - unlike the S4 stick figure version - is how much chemistry she had with Dean/Jensen, and how she actually paid attention to him.

But I honestly never for a second assumed she was referring only to Dean when she talked about Chuckles' pervy obsession. Because nothing is ever about Dean, I sincerely thought she was referring to the Winchesters plural.

It's something to consider, and I'll take the rest of my answer to BvJ.

[Aeryn13]

12 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

I admit part of the reason this Lilith was so good, aside from the fact that the actress could genuinely act - unlike the S4 stick figure version - is how much chemistry she had with Dean/Jensen, and how she actually paid attention to him.

But I honestly never for a second assumed she was referring only to Dean when she talked about Chuckles' pervy obsession. Because nothing is ever about Dean, I sincerely thought she was referring to the Winchesters plural.

It's something to consider, and I'll take the rest of my answer to BvJ.

I guess it could be about both but then she could have said something like "his pervy obsession with you guys" or "you two". Otherwise it is really awkward if you mean to refer to someone in the plural but are just talking to one of them, look thrm in the eye and say specifically "you" to just Dean. If she had spoken while both were present, then of course, it would have been more clear.

[juppschmitz]

31 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I guess it could be about both but then she could have said something like "his pervy obsession with you guys" or "you two". Otherwise it is really awkward if you mean to refer to someone in the plural but are just talking to one of them, look thrm in the eye and say specifically "you" to just Dean. If she had spoken while both were present, then of course, it would have been more clear.

Kind of like Chuck's "you're the firewall between Good and Evil". Could have theoretically been plural, but since only Dean was there at the time I choose to take it that he meant Dean specifically. "You" singular.

[sarthaz]

Just so I'm tracking Dabb's logic here: God is too weak to melt the gun himself (or just take it off the table entirely, God-style), but powerful enough to bring Lilith back from The Empty? Is that the bullshit I was supposed to swallow this week?

[Bergamot]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I guess it could be about both but then she could have said something like "his pervy obsession with you guys" or "you two". Otherwise it is really awkward if you mean to refer to someone in the plural but are just talking to one of them, look thrm in the eye and say specifically "you" to just Dean. If she had spoken while both were present, then of course, it would have been more clear.

I think maybe I assumed she was talking about Dean because she had already said that Chuck's plan was for her to seduce Dean after being rescued by him. And just a moment before, she had made it clear that it was Chuck's idea for Dean to "bond" with the victim and that he had specifically crafted the dialogue for their bonding moment. And also, because of the way that she nodded toward Dean and emphasized the word "you" when she said "with YOU".

I guess she could have meant "you and Sam", but I agree with Aeryn, to me it wouldn't seem to fit into what we saw of the conversation. It wouldn't bother me too much, to be honest. Just so long as she didn't say, "his obsession with Sam", I'm good. (As a Dean fan, my expectations are pretty low, I'm afraid.) But in this case, I am assuming that she meant Dean.

5 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

Just so I'm tracking Dabb's logic here: God is too weak to melt the gun himself (or just take it off the table entirely, God-style), but powerful enough to bring Lilith back from The Empty? Is that the bullshit I was supposed to swallow this week?

I agree that it is ridiculous. Chuck is powerful and omniscient enough to create the whole scenario of the episode, but still needs Lilith to figure out for him where the gun is?

[bethy]

This is probably an odd thing to have noticed or to have bug me, but I was distracted by people's clothes this week. Like how new and unused the Winchesters' Fish and Wildlife outfits looked, like how clean and trendy/hipsterish the outfits of the two werewolves seemed given the isolation they were supposedly living in. Even Lilith's skirt/boots/scarf seemed jarring to me. I mean, it's not like I would have expected Bender-level grime from the werewolves, but maybe a fisherman's sweater that didn't look freshly opened from an L.L. Bean delivery? Or a girl fresh out of the hospital maybe not perfectly made up and outfitted? Though I guess Lilith was supposedly going to seduce(?) Dean? I don't know. Maybe it's in keeping with all the sunshine and bright lights this season. Or maybe it's all an illusion? Like the episode where Zechariah had Sam Smith and Dean Wesson (or vice versa) not know each other and then when he snapped his fingers the lighting changed? 

[hunenka]

7 minutes ago, bethy said:

This is probably an odd thing to have noticed or to have bug me, but I was distracted by people's clothes this week.

Glad I'm not the only one! Everyone was dressed like straight out of a catalogue. And maybe the fish & wildlife outfits really were new and Dean just bought them and was excited they'll get to wear them, I could buy that. But the sweater werewolves and camping-accident-straight-out-of-the-hospital Lilith in her matching yellow hat, socks and scarf... that was just ridiculous. And very distracting.

[Castiels Cat]

2 hours ago, hunenka said:

Glad I'm not the only one! Everyone was dressed like straight out of a catalogue. And maybe the fish & wildlife outfits really were new and Dean just bought them and was excited they'll get to wear them, I could buy that. But the sweater werewolves and camping-accident-straight-out-of-the-hospital Lilith in her matching yellow hat, socks and scarf... that was just ridiculous. And very distracting.

Chuck's over the top bad writing. It was deliberate. The Winchesters and viewers were supposed to notice the play within the play for the "morality lesson" and foreshadowing.

[Castiels Cat]

4 hours ago, Bergamot said:

I think maybe I assumed she was talking about Dean because she had already said that Chuck's plan was for her to seduce Dean after being rescued by him. And just a moment before, she had made it clear that it was Chuck's idea for Dean to "bond" with the victim and that he had specifically crafted the dialogue for their bonding moment. And also, because of the way that she nodded toward Dean and emphasized the word "you" when she said "with YOU".

I guess she could have meant "you and Sam", but I agree with Aeryn, to me it wouldn't seem to fit into what we saw of the conversation. It wouldn't bother me too much, to be honest. Just so long as she didn't say, "his obsession with Sam", I'm good. (As a Dean fan, my expectations are pretty low, I'm afraid.) But in this case, I am assuming that she meant Dean.

I agree that it is ridiculous. Chuck is powerful and omniscient enough to create the whole scenario of the episode, but still needs Lilith to figure out for him where the gun is?

Naw. He didn't want to get shot. So he sent her. She is full of herself and sure that they can't kill her. They could with the gun but she didn't know that.

[Castiels Cat]

21 hours ago, Dobian said:

Sam killed Dean a different way in his dream this week.  And the Dean killed Sam.  I guess Chuck is doing rewrites.  He’s not very original.  If he wanted to end it right, he’d have Sam/Dean run over Dean/Sam with the beloved Impala.

He's rewriting the Winchester Gospel. He let Dean change the ending in Swan Song. Dean shows up at Chuck's and demands to know where it is going down. Chuck says I did not write this. This is the second time Dean has done this. The other time was in MatEotS. Dean forces Chuck to give him the intel and he goes to Stull and Dean being there changes everything. Dean changed the story in Moriah too and probably in the s 11 finale as well. It's probably why Chuck is obsessed.

[Castiels Cat]

On 11/15/2019 at 11:23 PM, Demian said:

Understood.  But I feel some sort of bizarre need to see it through its conclusion, nevertheless. So, please forgive my absolutely stupid questions in advance.

No thanks.

TNT has a 3 hour block weekday mornings.

On 11/16/2019 at 10:36 AM, Aeryn13 said:

That rather implies that you can't kill either one, either the scales tip away from light or from darkness but both times into nothing. So you eternally need both for balance.

Lock him up.

6 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

Kind of like Chuck's "you're the firewall between Good and Evil". Could have theoretically been plural, but since only Dean was there at the time I choose to take it that he meant Dean specifically. "You" singular.

Especially the pregnant pause before he added Sam...

[Castiels Cat]

19 hours ago, SueB said:

No, just counting up the number of destiny thwarted moments. No indication at all that 4 and 5 will ever appear on screen. 

Yeah... I did that too. I had some others as well which were stretches... I think MoC Dean and Michael!Dean are likely.

Edited November 17, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[Shannonsspirit]

7 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

Kind of like Chuck's "you're the firewall between Good and Evil". Could have theoretically been plural, but since only Dean was there at the time I choose to take it that he meant Dean specifically. "You" singular.

Chuck preceded that comment with Earth "has you and Sam"

6 hours ago, sarthaz said:

Just so I'm tracking Dabb's logic here: God is too weak to melt the gun himself (or just take it off the table entirely, God-style), but powerful enough to bring Lilith back from The Empty? Is that the bullshit I was supposed to swallow this week?

Yes, though it may have gotten lost among all the other bullshit.

[Shannonsspirit]

4 hours ago, bethy said:

This is probably an odd thing to have noticed or to have bug me, but I was distracted by people's clothes this week. Like how new and unused the Winchesters' Fish and Wildlife outfits looked, like how clean and trendy/hipsterish the outfits of the two werewolves seemed given the isolation they were supposedly living in. Even Lilith's skirt/boots/scarf seemed jarring to me. I mean, it's not like I would have expected Bender-level grime from the werewolves, but maybe a fisherman's sweater that didn't look freshly opened from an L.L. Bean delivery? Or a girl fresh out of the hospital maybe not perfectly made up and outfitted? Though I guess Lilith was supposedly going to seduce(?) Dean? I don't know. Maybe it's in keeping with all the sunshine and bright lights this season. Or maybe it's all an illusion? Like the episode where Zechariah had Sam Smith and Dean Wesson (or vice versa) not know each other and then when he snapped his fingers the lighting changed? 

So, it's possible that all this could disappear when Sam awakens from his coma induced dream after being knocked unconscious by Nick? I like it.

[Shannonsspirit]

2 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

He's rewriting the Winchester Gospel. He let Dean change the ending in Swan Song. Dean shows up at Chuck's and demands to know where it is going down. Chuck says I did not write this. This is the second time Dean has done this. The other time was in MatEotS. Dean forces Chuck to give him the intel and he goes to Stull and Dean being there changes everything. Dean changed the story in Moriah too and probably in the s 11 finale as well. It's probably why Chuck is obsessed.

That is another example of the absurd retcon. Chuck didn't let Dean change the story. He shined a light on the toy soldiers in the Impala giving Sam that innocent memory of the two of them as kids. Lucifer feeds off of and finds power over the negative in humanity. In that happy memory, Lucifer lost his advantage and Sam took over. (I hate this season)

[BoxManLocke]

I love that from now on, people can respond to almost any criticism geared towards an episode with "no but that's just Chuck and his shit writing !"

What a parting gift from Yockey to the rest of the writers, I'm sure they've built an altar to his glory in the LA offices.

Edited November 18, 2019 by BoxManLocke

[Shannonsspirit]

38 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

I love that from now on, people can respond to almost any criticism geared towards an episode with "no but that's just Chuck and his shit writing !"

What a parting gift from Yockey to the rest of the writers, I'm sure they've built an altar to his glory in the LA offices.

Yep. Add ignored or dismantled lore and canon, out of character behavior and any other stupid inexplicable plot device and exposition to the list. 

[Castiels Cat]

5 hours ago, Shannonsspirit said:

That is another example of the absurd retcon. Chuck didn't let Dean change the story. He shined a light on the toy soldiers in the Impala giving Sam that innocent memory of the two of them as kids. Lucifer feeds off of and finds power over the negative in humanity. In that happy memory, Lucifer lost his advantage and Sam took over. (I hate this season)

I disagree.

Dean calls Chuck's place. Chuck says he didn't know he would call. Chuck tell him the info. Dean goes to Stull. Without Dean doing this nothing changes. It was the pivotal act that changed everything. He was only human too. And he wasn't afraid to go there and try to reach Sam. It had to be Dean that changed the story. He was the character that epitomized free will.

I went back and checked the transcript and it's not as firm as the "I didn't write this" from MatEotB however "I didn't know you would call" is in the same vein. Dean went off Omniscient Chuck's script just like he did in Moriah.

So do not discount what he did. Chuck didn't.

If you want to attribute it to the sun shining off of a green army man... well Dean drove it there.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[Shannonsspirit]

10 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

No. Dean shows up at Chuck's place. Chuck says you are not supposed to be here. I didn't write this. Dean demands to know where the battle is happening. He makes Chuck tell him. Dean goes to Stull. Without Dean doing this nothing changes and you do not have to accept my interpretation on this because it is in text. Chuck says you being here is not in the story that I wrote.

That is God saying Dean is the game changer. He was only human too. And he wasn't afraid to go there and tey to reach Sam.

So do not discount what he did. Chuck didn't.

I'm focusing on 2 different points. One there is free will and the other; divine intervention. Chuck was written as a prophet, unbeknownst to him, until he had a vision about being a prophet and confirmed by Castiel.  "Write" can refer to the creative process, as well as, the physical process. Chuck first believed he was a writer and them understands he is a prophet who records his visions. Accustomed to being a writer and now a recorder, his, "I didn't write this," references the process not the creation, while reinforcing Dean's free will.

Dean goes to Stull Cemetery, free will. In his near death confrontation with Lucifer/Sam, God intervenes to help Sam, Dean and their mission to stop the apocalypse  by shining a light on the toy soldiers, which enables Sam to wrest control from Lucifer. 

Free will, noble moral choices, divine intervention and the love between two brothers saved the day. Now that was story telling. Retconned evil Chuck with hapless rats stuck in a maze is not good story telling.

[Castiels Cat]

2 minutes ago, Shannonsspirit said:

I'm focusing on 2 different points. One there is free will and the other; divine intervention. Chuck was written as a prophet, unbeknownst to him, until he had a vision about being a prophet and confirmed by Castiel.  "Write" can refer to the creative process, as well as, the physical process. Chuck first believed he was a writer and them understands he is a prophet who records his visions. Accustomed to being a writer and now a recorder, his, "I didn't write this," references the process not the creation, while reinforcing Dean's free will.

Dean goes to Stull Cemetery, free will. In his near death confrontation with Lucifer/Sam, God intervenes to help Sam, Dean and their mission to stop the apocalypse  by shining a light on the toy soldiers, which enables Sam to wrest control from Lucifer. 

Free will, noble moral choices, divine intervention and the love between two brothers saved the day. Now that was story telling. Retconned evil Chuck with hapless rats stuck in a maze is not good story telling.

There are serious problems with the storytelling. I think there were previous hints Chuck wasn't all that. S 11 especially springs to mind. Everything about that season had me rooting for Amara and therefore very wary of Chuck. 

I am probably due for a major rewatch. I  think Chuck was gobsmacked by Dean's move in MatEotB and was a fanboy after that. I think he meant that line. Unfortunately he was also hooked on the adrenalin which is why an Apocalypse or near apocalyptic scenario has repeated itself almost every year like ckockwork.

Some might say they pulled this out of their ass. I am not so sure. Dabb has been thinking about it and the Amara storyline hinted at it.

[Shannonsspirit]

Response to Castiel's Cat:

Rooting for Amara, as in the end of the world?

Chuck stepped aside to let his baby grow and mature into responsible guardians of the Earth and each other, when repeated teaching and punishing proved ineffective. The creator of souls, the moral compass that combines compassion, conscience, empathy and remorse to balance free will is an evil, bored, egotistical, manipulative psychopath!? And you saw and believed that, all along while rooting for the Darkness, who wished only to destroy?

Edited November 18, 2019 by Shannonsspirit