S15.E05: Proverbs 17:3

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, BlueSapphire said:

Nope, Sam is also a mighty fine specimen, so this “God is a Deangirl” stuff is pure crap.

People (and even gods, I guess) can still have preferences.  The Greek gods used to have favorites among humans all the time.  

[KayCordingly]

I loved this episode!

- wifey & I were cracking up at the ghost pepper jerky bit. She's convinced that they actually gave him .something spicy because his reaction looked real.

- we thought the people questioning Dean's younger I.D. was funny.

- I called it that Chuck was responsible for their hunt being too easy, but I totally did not see the Lilith twist coming. I thought it was very well done.

- I'm so glad that Sam told Dean about his dreams once he realized that they might be visions, and I totally buy him keeping them to himself because he thought they were just "messed up ptsd dreams".

- Really felt Dean's frustration at the end, although I wasn't quite on board with it. I mean, they've killed gods before. Plus (and I hope Dean eventually remembers this), Death said that he would eventually reap God, so at least trying to get Billie's help is still an option.

[Castiels Cat]

1 minute ago, BlueSapphire said:

Nope, Sam is also a mighty fine specimen, so this “God is a Deangirl” stuff is pure crap.

I am just pointing out canon. God has allowed Dean to change the story more than once. God specifically wrote season 14 to sey up Dean sacrificing Jack for killing his beloved Mary. God showed up when Dean called in season 11 and told him that he was the firewall and responsible for everything. That's a lot of attention that God has showered on Dean and now a character who just had a one on one with God tells Dean that God is perving on him specifically.

[BlueSapphire]

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

People (and even gods, I guess) can still have preferences.  The Greek gods used to have favorites among humans all the time.  

That doesn’t mean I have to agree with it.

[DeeDee79]

4 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Sorry, I don't know why that bothered me more than the stupidity of the script.   

Probably because you actually live in the area that the story is supposedly taking place in and it’s irritating when people don’t do their research before basing their story setting in said area. Kind of like my outrage when stories that are set in NJ feature nothing but inhabitants that act like Soprano or Jersey Shore rejects as if the entire state is made up people that behave that way. 😡

[SueB]

4 minutes ago, BlueSapphire said:

Nope, Sam is also a mighty fine specimen, so this “God is a Deangirl” stuff is pure crap.

Independent of their attractiveness, I do wonder if God is bitter that Dean never had faith in him like Sam.  Sam showed real deference.  Dean had legit fear but he always judged God as shitty.  I could see him either wanting to win Dean over (sure seems like THAT ship has sailed) or torture Dean for not loving him.  So... obsessed.  

[ahrtee]

2 minutes ago, BlueSapphire said:

That doesn’t mean I have to agree with it.

Nobody said you have to.  We're talking about Chuck's preferences, not yours.

And it's not an insult if someone prefers one over another.  It's just a personal choice.  

Edited November 15, 2019 by ahrtee

[DeeDee79]

6 minutes ago, BlueSapphire said:

Nope, Sam is also a mighty fine specimen, so this “God is a Deangirl” stuff is pure crap.

That’s one posters opinion. Its not fair to call it crap IMO.

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, BlueSapphire said:

That doesn’t mean I have to agree with it.

Did you watch the episode? Lilith literally said God was perving on Dean. So in the context of this thread, yeah, you kinda do. Don't worry though, they spent the rest of the episode making sure we know Dean was old and a bit of a joke while Sam once again figured everything out.

Edited November 15, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Nobody said you have to.  And it's not an insult if someone prefers one to another.  It's just a personal choice.  

Exactly. It’s not hurting anyone to say so especially for fans that proclaim to like both brothers/actors.

[Castiels Cat]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Did you watch the episode? Lilith literally said God was perving on Dean. So in the context of this thread, yeah, you kinda do. 

She can be bitter about it though... in a different thread.

[Cambion]

Well, another ep legitimately brought tears to my eyes.  (I'm never copping to any others, so don't even ask, but they probably do involve our favorite character - as if that narrows it down.)  The BM at the end was excruciating.  I mean, I expect Dean to be the one to sack up, but come on man...sometimes you can't stuff down any more pain.  He's destroying himself.

I agree with the brother mirror, and it was too easy, but the thought I had was about Becky saying there was no jeopardy, and how Chuck was all about his ending.  I don't think he cares how he gets there, nor the quality of the story on the way (boy are we used to that!), so I think we're going to be seeing a lot of monsters who suck at being monsters, cause Chuck is all about the destination and could care less about the journey.

I was super glad to see a dream involving Dean killing Sam.  I was afraid they were just trying to make us immune to that happening so they could have that as the actual finale.  Now, this does seem a bit of an effort at misdirection, especially with Lilith's revelation of Chuck wanting one to kill the other as the ending.  Which sorta shoots the whole misdirection in the foot, so it was kind of a disappointment to reveal both those things in the same episode.  No time for the questions to build.

As for Chuck being "pervy" towards Dean, I don't think she meant it that way.  I think she was trying to get a rise our of Dean, and maybe Sam, too.  I think Chuck is gunning more for Dean because Dean is the one who continually denies him his pleasure with the things he wants to make them do.  Chuck points them straight ahead and Dean makes a hard left and flips Chuck off along the way.  Every. Time.  Now that's gonna make Chuck all about flogging Dean and well, look at what two characters being close friends has spawned in the slash world, so it's not that hard to image someone (Lilith) going straight to pervy territory on that situation.

There were definitely things that seem to be foreshadowing.  Let's hope that it's not all forgotten by next week, cause some of these things have interesting potential.

[Pondlass1]

The American health care system is awesome. You get a private room for a cut on the cheek.

Chuck is writing the scripts of their lives. It’s got to be exasperating.  He wrote more complex stuff in the early years. Amara needs to check on her brother.

Loved the Sheriff’s office backdrop and that crazy motel decor. Did Chuck write that too? 

Baby needs to be warded or something. 
 

1 minute ago, Pondlass1 said:

Edited November 15, 2019 by Pondlass1
Something went weird

[Castiels Cat]

11 minutes ago, SueB said:

Independent of their attractiveness, I do wonder if God is bitter that Dean never had faith in him like Sam.  Sam showed real deference.  Dean had legit fear but he always judged God as shitty.  I could see him either wanting to win Dean over (sure seems like THAT ship has sailed) or torture Dean for not loving him.  So... obsessed.  

Maybe. I would argue that he was always fascinated with him because he went off script and God just decided okay... that's how the Winchesters won in season 5. Dean, according to Chuck, changed the story twice.

Last season Chuck wanted Dean to do him one favor and Dean refused.

So now Chuck is rewriting the Winchester Gospel season 5 to return to his original concept of one brother killing the other. 

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, Pondlass1 said:

The America health care system is awesome.

I’m sure that you’re joking but sadly no it isn’t! Even speaking as a veteran it’s crap compared to what I’ve heard about places outside of the US. 😩

[Pondlass1]

Yes I was joking. I’m in Canada 🇨🇦. Most health care is free.  Well, we pay with taxes.

[Cambion]

6 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Loved the Sheriff’s office backdrop and that crazy motel decor. Did Chuck write that too? 

Baby needs to be warded or something. 
 

Yeah, I love all the crazy motel motifs.  That's something I look for every time.

I legit was talking to the tv telling her to leave Baby alone!  

And forgot to mention in my comments above that we predicted the gun in the glovebox was going to come back to bite them in the ass. 

[DeeDee79]

17 minutes ago, SueB said:

Independent of their attractiveness, I do wonder if God is bitter that Dean never had faith in him like Sam.  Sam showed real deference.  Dean had legit fear but he always judged God as shitty.  I could see him either wanting to win Dean over (sure seems like THAT ship has sailed) or torture Dean for not loving him.  So... obsessed.  

Also when he was just known as Chuck he told Sam that what he was doing was wrong while he deferred to Dean in season 4. He’s focusing on the more assertive/alpha brother maybe? 🤔

5 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Yes I was joking. I’m in Canada 🇨🇦. Most health care is free.  Well, we pay with taxes.

Lucky! 😩

[Pondlass1]

Considering Dean leaves her unlocked and all windows open surely they could’ve got Rowena to cast a spell or something before she did the swan dive to death.  But she did look pretty all polished in the moonlight.

[DeeDee79]

32 minutes ago, KayCordingly said:

I mean, they've killed gods before.

No offense meant to anyone’s religion/ beliefs but the gods that they’ve encountered over the course of the show have mostly been pagan gods, not the creator of the universe. I can understand Dean’s dismay in the face of that.

[Wynne88]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I'm not a fan of Speight's directing but he should have reminded Jared to change his style. Both Demon Blood Sam and Lucifer Sam came across the same.  Demon Blood Sam was angry and full of rage.  Lucifer was calm and collected.  

Have we seen Demon Blood Sam?  The dreams I remember from this episode and the last one only had Lucifer Sam to the best of my recollection.  And I thought Jared has done a good job of playing him very similarly to how he played Lucifer as those years ago.

[Lemuria]

8 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

Have we seen Demon Blood Sam?  The dreams I remember from this episode and the last one only had Lucifer Sam to the best of my recollection.  And I thought Jared has done a good job of playing him very similarly to how he played Lucifer as those years ago.

The dream/vision/glimpse of Chuck’s AUs that we saw at the beginning of last week’s episode had  Dean saying something along the lines of “what you did to Bobby… To Jody. It’s the demon blood“. So I think that we’ve seen both a demon blood Sam and a Lucifer Sam. 

Edited November 15, 2019 by Lemuria
Stupid autocorrect!

[DeeDee79]

6 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

Have we seen Demon Blood Sam? 

Sam in the latter half of season 4 when he was heavily influenced by demon blood was more angry and aggressive while Lucifer Sam was calm and condescending. Jared’s portrayals in seasons 4 & 5 were distinctly different IMO.

[7kstar]

32 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

The American health care system is awesome. You get a private room for a cut on the cheek.

25 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Yes I was joking. I’m in Canada 🇨🇦. Most health care is free.  Well, we pay with taxes.

If it was real life instead of TV world, she would be sharing a room as many times they don't have a private room even if you can pay, depends on hospital...But the American system is surprise, this is your bill many months later...now maybe Chuck is responsible for that. lol

Several of the jokes fell flat for me.  The food jokes, the age joke, although I did enjoy that the guys weren't in FBI suites which has gotten so old...

Lilith was nice but which brother is killing whom, not really interesting, almost a yawn for me.  I did prefer the scene with Dean killing Sam but I don't want to see the brother's killing each other.

I've only seen two eps, this one and the one before, but only one do I want to watch part of it again.  As well as Jensen hit the despair about God toying with them, I'm not interested in the story.  So far, God as the big bad is a yawn.

Also I don't like the title card for this year...shame the last one isn't one I want to remember but I'm afraid that is how I will feel about the entire season.

[Casseiopeia]

2 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

Not a BvJ statement but Sam/Jared looks as old or older than Dean/Jensen IMO. Just saying.

I think that was Yockey's attempt at a little humorous jab at the fans. It's kind of a running joke in fandom that Jensen never ages while Jared looks nothing like he did in the early years. It seemed to have fell flat.

[catrox14]

Hey! That was Tara from First Born, playing the sheriff.  I'll be back later. LOL

[juppschmitz]

3 hours ago, Demian said:

They're in their forties, for Christ's sake.  Stop calling them "boys." They're, at best, horrifically damaged adults.

THANK you!

[BoxManLocke]

Hey I'm back. That was horrible.

They had a good thing going at the beginning of the season. Surviving the apocalypse God had left them was a simple and effective premise. They wrapped that in 3 episodes and we're back to Chuck writing and this meta fest that these writers are nowhere near talented enough to handle.

All this episode was good for is confirming that most of the season will be a creatively bankrupt greatest hits compilation, a waste of time where old characters pop up constantly for no reason other than Chuck willing them into existence.

And oh boy, do I hate character returns. Maybe I would be more favorable to them if the show hadn't overused that trope to the point of parody under Dabb. Lilith was the perfect example of their uselessness. Beyond the initial surprise (that's not even there anymore because we all expect that stuff), there's nothing of value here, it's just fluff, played-out nostalgia crap.

As usual, take away the CGI and the show looks like it's being made with a per episode budget that's under five figures. Everything looks cheap and bland. The directing and editing were crap, Jensen is the only one that did a decent job this season so far.

My favorite part was the writers saying the first half was boring because it was Lilith's/Chuck's plan all along. That's nice, I'm sure this isn't the last time we're hearing that one.

The ghost pepper bit was funny in a extremely stupid way, but when you consider that's the best the episode has to offer in terms of humor (the "haha they're old" thing certainly isn't of higher quality), maybe people are just better off watching convention panels on Youtube, because they're funnier and you'll probably hear some new things and bits of improv that are a lot better than what the show is currently producing.

Ahhhh... well at least typing this felt a whole lot better than watching the episode.

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, Demian said:

Thanks!  Why does the Mark of Cain on this show look like a "7" with squiggles above it?  Or is that never explained?  And why does the Mark of Cain appear on his forearm, instead of on his forehead, as Biblical lore dictates?

Most of this has already been answered by everybody, but I just wanted to add that I agree with @gonzosgirrl that the mark is supposed to look like the First Blade. Everyone described what the blade looked like already - jawbone of an ass, etc. - I just wanted to add that it was the thing that Dean stabbed Sam with in Sam's visions in this episode. It's really not that impressive of a weapon on its own - it actually looks quite dull in terms of a blade - however when combined with the mark of Cain, it has mystical properties and is super lethal. It also has a "draw" in that the person or persons who have the mark are drawn to it when it is close by. At the height of Dean's being influenced by the mark of Cain he never let go of it. He even held on to it while he slept.

[Shannonsspirit]

33 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

Hey I'm back. That was horrible.

They had a good thing going at the beginning of the season. Surviving the apocalypse God had left them was a simple and effective premise. They wrapped that in 3 episodes and we're back to Chuck writing and this meta fest that these writers are nowhere near talented enough to handle.

All this episode was good for is confirming that most of the season will be a creatively bankrupt greatest hits compilation, a waste of time where old characters pop up constantly for no reason other than Chuck willing them into existence.

And oh boy, do I hate character returns. Maybe I would be more favorable to them if the show hadn't overused that trope to the point of parody under Dabb. Lilith was the perfect example of their uselessness. Beyond the initial surprise (that's not even there anymore because we all expect that stuff), there's nothing of value here, it's just fluff, played-out nostalgia crap.

As usual, take away the CGI and the show looks like it's being made with a per episode budget that's under five figures. Everything looks cheap and bland. The directing and editing were crap, Jensen is the only one that did a decent job this season so far.

My favorite part was the writers saying the first half was boring because it was Lilith's/Chuck's plan all along. That's nice, I'm sure this isn't the last time we're hearing that one.

The ghost pepper bit was funny in a extremely stupid way, but when you consider that's the best the episode has to offer in terms of humor (the "haha they're old" thing certainly isn't of higher quality), maybe people are just better off watching convention panels on Youtube, because they're funnier and you'll probably hear some new things and bits of improv that are a lot better than what the show is currently producing.

Ahhhh... well at least typing this felt a whole lot better than watching the episode.

I was speechless until I read your comment. This episode is the saddest most pathetic meta commentary the writers have made about themselves, the show and what's left of a dwindling audience.  It's a stand alone season of a show I don't want to watch. Which is precisely what I am doing, not engaging, just watching.  I loved Supernatural. I have no idea what the hell I'm now watching. 

[catrox14]

I finally watched this. 

I don't really know what to make of it.

It seemed like it was three different scripts (not storylines) that were melded into one episode. Yockey usually weaves his stuff better so maybe this is on Dick Speight?  

I don't care for Dick's directing TBH.  I don't think he does that well with balancing comedy and drama. 

I did enjoy seeing Demon! Dean kill Sam because the show never allowed Demon!Dean to go there the first time. 

I also enjoyed watching Dean shoot Lucifer!Sam in the head because fuck Lucifer!Sam. 

I don't see the point in bringing back Lilith for this episode because she didn't do anything that another demon or God himself could do.  I don't get why Lilith wanted Chuck's gun.  I must have missed something.

Jensen brought it all in tonight's episode acting wise, though.  Even his slapstick with the ghost pepper was not OTT. 

I don't understand what's happened to Jared's acting.  He used to really be good and smooth and natural with his line deliveries.  I never quite bought some of Sam's empathy but he did play it smoothly and believable if unconvincing, if that makes sense.  Now, when Sam is supposed to be confused and not understanding something, he struggles to convey it well.  Which leads me to wonder, and I really hope that it's Jared playing Chuck playing Sam,  so it becomes stuttering, stilting and making really not great acting faces because Chuck can't quite figure out how to be Sam...otherwise.....man...  I'm not trying to be cruel here, but what the fuck, Chuck (heh).

I really thought when Dean said 'how long are we supposed to be in this maze...just keep going around until we die.....or become boring?' was some really pretty deep meta snark IMO from Yockey.

It wasn't terrible but it was just weird and not a good weird. 

[juppschmitz]

4 hours ago, KayCordingly said:

I mean, they've killed gods before. Plus (and I hope Dean eventually remembers this), Death said that he would eventually reap God, so at least trying to get Billie's help is still an option.

Except supposedly if they kill this God they kill ALL OF HIS CREATION along with him.

[BoxManLocke]

22 minutes ago, Shannonsspirit said:

I was speechless until I read your comment. This episode is the saddest most pathetic meta commentary the writers have made about themselves, the show and what's left of a dwindling audience.  It's a stand alone season of a show I don't want to watch. Which is precisely what I am doing, not engaging, just watching.  I loved Supernatural. I have no idea what the hell I'm now watching. 

Yeah I mean I guess it's up to interpretation, but the message I got was basically them admitting defeat, they have nothing left to say so they're going to play out the greatest hits and seem to be aware it's going to suck. This whole storyline is so weird.

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't see the point in bringing back Lilith for this episode because she didn't do anything that another demon or God himself could do.  I don't get why Lilith wanted Chuck's gun.  I must have missed something.

She didn't want the gun, Chuck wanted it but resurrected Lilith to do it for her (why ?) and she made up that ridiculously complicated plan to take it from them and immediately destroy it ?

I'm not even sure either, but I think it's difficult to understand mostly because it makes zero sense.

[Shannonsspirit]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I finally watched this. 

I don't really know what to make of it.

It seemed like it was three different scripts (not storylines) that were melded into one episode. Yockey usually weaves his stuff better so maybe this is on Dick Speight?  

I don't care for Dick's directing TBH.  I don't think he does that well with balancing comedy and drama. 

I did enjoy seeing Demon! Dean kill Sam because the show never allowed Demon!Dean to go there the first time. 

I also enjoyed watching Dean shoot Lucifer!Sam in the head because fuck Lucifer!Sam. 

I don't see the point in bringing back Lilith for this episode because she didn't do anything that another demon or God himself could do.  I don't get why Lilith wanted Chuck's gun.  I must have missed something.

Jensen brought it all in tonight's episode acting wise, though.  Even his slapstick with the ghost pepper was not OTT. 

I don't understand what's happened to Jared's acting.  He used to really be good and smooth and natural with his line deliveries.  I never quite bought some of Sam's empathy but he did play it smoothly and believable if unconvincing, if that makes sense.  Now, when Sam is supposed to be confused and not understanding something, he struggles to convey it well.  Which leads me to wonder, and I really hope that it's Jared playing Chuck playing Sam,  so it becomes stuttering, stilting and making really not great acting faces because Chuck can't quite figure out how to be Sam...otherwise.....man...  I'm not trying to be cruel here, but what the fuck, Chuck (heh).

I really thought when Dean said 'how long are we supposed to be in this maze...just keep going around until we die.....or become boring?' was some really pretty deep meta snark IMO from Yockey.

It wasn't terrible but it was just weird and not a good weird. 

Yeah, just weird meta mockery since Moriah. Ghosts running in broad daylight with obvious makeup, characters returning under the cloak of "fan favorites" just to die or be unimportant, self-aware bad writing, aging actors stuck in a maze until they die; all under the helm of a deranged uninspired showrunne who thinks he's God. My show is awful, now. I am sad about that.

[Female83]

How did Chuck bring Lilith back when the Empty told Castiel that he didn't have power there?

Edited November 15, 2019 by Female83

[BoxManLocke]

I missed meta episodes (and Robbie Thompson) when they stopped doing them after season 11, but I could respect the fact that the writers knew they sucked too much to even touch them. Or so I thought.

Oh and random bit of quality directing : Sam and Dean changing costumes and joking about their fake IDs literally meters away from the sheriff's office which has glass walls. Super conspicuous, just like the ridiculous costume themselves.
It's like every one in the crew is working towards the same goal of making the show look as stupid and cheap as possible. It is in line with the meta commentary, but I kind of doubt they're doing it on purpose.

[hunenka]

49 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Which leads me to wonder, and I really hope that it's Jared playing Chuck playing Sam,  so it becomes stuttering, stilting and making really not great acting faces because Chuck can't quite figure out how to be Sam...

The problem with this theory is that Jared's been doing the stuttering and stilting for years now; I think it started somewhere around season 12 or 13. And it only keeps getting more prominent.

Back when it started happening, I used to think it was Jared playing Sam suffeing from permanent nerve damage from all the head wounds, but that doesn't seem to be the case either...

[mertensia]

I laughed when I realized God had to go all the way back to Lilith to find a powerful being who hated both Winchesters. That said, I sure didn't see that plot twist!

[Bergamot]

1 hour ago, Shannonsspirit said:

Yeah, just weird meta mockery since Moriah. Ghosts running in broad daylight with obvious makeup, characters returning under the cloak of "fan favorites" just to die or be unimportant, self-aware bad writing, aging actors stuck in a maze until they die; all under the helm of a deranged uninspired showrunne who thinks he's God. My show is awful, now. I am sad about that.

Ouch! But well said. It makes me hurt too to see what has become of my show.

3 hours ago, BoxManLocke said:

My favorite part was the writers saying the first half was boring because it was Lilith's/Chuck's plan all along. That's nice, I'm sure this isn't the last time we're hearing that one.

Yes. And it illustrates quite well what a really, really bad idea it was to make the whole final season focusing on Chuck the hack writer as God. Here the writers are trying to make fun of Chuck's writing as boring and stupid and unoriginal, and here I am as a viewer saying "Excuse me? What about the parts that you guys wrote? So what's your excuse?"

I know Dabb thinks he is being clever and cute with this, but if I am not sure which parts are supposed to be dumb writing by Chuck and which parts are actually dumb writing by the real scriptwriter, then the whole thing becomes pretty pointless. The show's writers are just not good enough writers to write a clever story about a bad writer.

I'm not sure at this point how powerful Chuck is supposed to be. It just seemed kind of bizarre to me that he could raise a powerful demon like Lilith from the Empty and force her to follow his script against her will, that he could force the werewolf brothers to commit murder/suicide as "foreshadowing" (or were those characters not "real? Who knows? Who cares?) -- yet he is not powerful or omniscient enough to know where the gun is and pull it out of the glove compartment if he wants it. I guess maybe we are supposed to assume that he could have, but was just entertaining himself with his story. Well, okay.  At least one of us was entertained?

I will say that this version of Lilith was well acted, and I enjoyed her sarcasm and eye-rolling reactions. And it was good to see Demon Dean again, if only for a brief moment!

Not a great episode for Yockey to say good-bye with. But he did write some good ones, in my opinion, and I will always be grateful for "Nihilism", which I loved. I wish him well.

[ILoveReading]

Why was this cut? 

[gonzosgirrl]

6 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Why was this cut? 

I think we know why.

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think we know why.

I posted my theory in bitch/jerk

[hunenka]

Not that I particularly want to see more of depressed Sam, but how exactly did he go from “sometimes I can’t even breathe” to laughing at Dean with the ghost pepper or teasing Dean about his age?

The seesaw of which brother is depressed and which one is optimistic isn’t exactly unexpected given this set of writers, but it’s jarring nonetheless. At least I could get why Dean’s back to feeling hopeless by the end of the episode, but Sam suddenly seeming fine when last week he couldn’t conjure up a smile if the fate of the world depended on it is just dumb. And it could've been easily fixed by showing Sam's just trying to look okay so Dean won't worry (just like Dean did with Sam in 15x04).

[Shannonsspirit]

45 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Ouch! But well said. It makes me hurt too to see what has become of my show.

Yes. And it illustrates quite well what a really, really bad idea it was to make the whole final season focusing on Chuck the hack writer as God. Here the writers are trying to make fun of Chuck's writing as boring and stupid and unoriginal, and here I am as a viewer saying "Excuse me? What about the parts that you guys wrote? So what's your excuse?"

I know Dabb thinks he is being clever and cute with this, but if I am not sure which parts are supposed to be dumb writing by Chuck and which parts are actually dumb writing by the real scriptwriter, then the whole thing becomes pretty pointless. The show's writers are just not good enough writers to write a clever story about a bad writer.

I'm not sure at this point how powerful Chuck is supposed to be. It just seemed kind of bizarre to me that he could raise a powerful demon like Lilith from the Empty and force her to follow his script against her will, that he could force the werewolf brothers to commit murder/suicide as "foreshadowing" (or were those characters not "real? Who knows? Who cares?) -- yet he is not powerful or omniscient enough to know where the gun is and pull it out of the glove compartment if he wants it. I guess maybe we are supposed to assume that he could have, but was just entertaining himself with his story. Well, okay.  At least one of us was entertained?

I will say that this version of Lilith was well acted, and I enjoyed her sarcasm and eye-rolling reactions. And it was good to see Demon Dean again, if only for a brief moment!

Not a great episode for Yockey to say good-bye with. But he did write some good ones, in my opinion, and I will always be grateful for "Nihilism", which I loved. I wish him well.

The fact that the writers call attention to bad writing, boring stories, is the disturbing defeat for everyone. That it isn't even interesting enough or fun enough to even bother determining what characters are real.

When this retcon of Chuck occurred, I despised it for all reasons, I tire of even mentioning anymore. But I'll be damned if I'm going to spend another minute on, "I'm sitting in a laundry room, reading about myself, sitting in a laundry room." It was funny then, Chuck was a helpful drunken phrophet, who became a God who genuinely cared about humanity and Sam and Dean. He just wanted everyone to grow. Now, he is a mustache twirling super villain. I don't want to watch a Marvel movie.

Bless the true-hearted of Supernatural for all the great.

[Shannonsspirit]

13 minutes ago, hunenka said:

Not that I particularly want to see more of depressed Sam, but how exactly did he go from “sometimes I can’t even breathe” to laughing at Dean with the ghost pepper or teasing Dean about his age?

The seesaw of which brother is depressed and which one is optimistic isn’t exactly unexpected given this set of writers, but it’s jarring nonetheless. At least I could get why Dean’s back to feeling hopeless by the end of the episode, but Sam suddenly seeming fine when last week he couldn’t conjure up a smile if the fate of the world depended on it is just dumb. And it could've been easily fixed by showing Sam's just trying to look okay so Dean won't worry (just like Dean did with Sam in 15x04).

I don't think one hand is paying attention to what the other hand is doing. It's a meta chaotic free for all, and I don't think they care.

[PAForrest]

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Why was this cut? 

Because it was good?

Seeing a minute of MoC!Dean and watching him kill Sam with the blade was the highlight for me out of this bad fan fiction episode. And I don't know if Yockey was purposely writing it as Chuckles' bad fan fiction, or this is just what the show is now and no one can rise above it no matter how hard they try - if they try at all. I fear it's the latter. I think the irony is that there is no irony.

I hoped for better from Yockey's final episode, but now I'm realizing he won't be missed anymore than anyone else from this production staff would be missed. Take their names off the scripts, it doesn't matter, they're all exactly the same.

Maybe Speight's direction doesn't help - I am not a fan.

The constant OTT jokes and jabs about the looks of a guy the audience would all have to be blind not to notice has changed very little and is every bit as handsome as he's always been now smack of gaslighting.

Bringing Lilith back from a realm Chuckles is not supposed to have control over is more LOL!canon - we're running out of means to list them all. But at least the actress they hired for this go 'round was a lot better than the original from season 4. I did like her, even though she had no business being there.

I don't care about the stupid God Gun. It was a lame plot device from the jump.

I know Jensen is a really good actor and has, yes, outgrown the hell out of this show, but I'm not sure if the defeated attitude we saw from Dean at the end of the episode is all Dean, or a lot of bleed over from Jensen because the writing is so bad now.

Like I have no idea why the guys would believe they won anything after getting rid of the Party City ghosts. Why the holy hell would they think they were free of Chuckles, or that he'd gone anywhere? None of what they're thinking makes any sense to me. Sad.

[Shannonsspirit]

3 hours ago, Female83 said:

How did Chuck bring Lilith back when the Empty told Castiel that he didn't have power there?

The Empty was sleeping when Chuck was being retconned.

[Shannonsspirit]

3 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

Because it was good?

Seeing a minute of MoC!Dean and watching him kill Sam with the blade was the highlight for me out of this bad fan fiction episode. And I don't know if Yockey was purposely writing it as Chuckles' bad fan fiction, or this is just what the show is now and no one can rise above it no matter how hard they try - if they try at all. I fear it's the latter. I think the irony is that there is no irony.

I hoped for better from Yockey's final episode, but now I'm realizing he won't be missed anymore than anyone else from this production staff would be missed. Take their names off the scripts, it doesn't matter, they're all exactly the same.

Maybe Speight's direction doesn't help - I am not a fan.

The constant OTT jokes and jabs about the looks of a guy the audience would all have to be blind not to notice has changed very little and is every bit as handsome as he's always been now smack of gaslighting.

Bringing Lilith back from a realm Chuckles is not supposed to have control over is more LOL!canon - we're running out of means to list them all. But at least the actress they hired for this go 'round was a lot better than the original from season 4. I did like her, even though she had no business being there.

I don't care about the stupid God Gun. It was a lame plot device from the jump.

I know Jensen is a really good actor and has, yes, outgrown the hell out of this show, but I'm not sure if the defeated attitude we saw from Dean at the end of the episode is all Dean, or a lot of bleed over from Jensen because the writing is so bad now.

Like I have no idea why the guys would believe they won anything after getting rid of the Party City ghosts. Why the holy hell would they think they were free of Chuckles, or that he'd gone anywhere? None of what they're thinking makes any sense to me. Sad.

Yeah. There are reasons why they went from shorter seasons to an announcement they wanted to stop. Season 14 was not good. 15 is pathetic.

[ILoveReading]

23 minutes ago, hunenka said:

The seesaw of which brother is depressed and which one is optimistic isn’t exactly unexpected given this set of writers, but it’s jarring nonetheless. At least I could get why Dean’s back to feeling hopeless by the end of the episode, but Sam suddenly seeming fine when last week he couldn’t conjure up a smile if the fate of the world depended on it is just dumb. And it could've been easily fixed by showing Sam's just trying to look okay so Dean won't worry (just like Dean did with Sam in 15x04).

I think this has a lot to do with the writers not talking to each other and writing in a vacuum.   Episode 4 was finalized first and filmed first so most likely Perez didn't bother checking with the other writers to see which brother was supposed have which reaction.  So he chose to have Dean prop up Sam.   The other writers decided to pick Sam for whatever reason. 

At least I can reconcile Deans' reactions.  Dean was the biggest champion of free will so it would hit him the hardest losing it.  They were given a brief repreive last week, and it was probably partly Dean trying to convince himself/be strong for Sam.   Then finding out this week that no, they are still on the hamster wheel was going too hit doubly hard and Jensen conveyed that brilliantly.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

At least I can reconcile Deans' reactions.  Dean was the biggest champion of free will so it would hit him the hardest losing it.  They were given a brief repreive last week, and it was probably partly Dean trying to convince himself/be strong for Sam.   Then finding out this week that no, they are still on the hamster wheel was going too hit doubly hard and Jensen conveyed that brilliantly.

Yes. This is one thing I'll give Yockey credit for - he is the one writer in the Dabbernatural era that generally gets Dean's emotions right. Even given that, I'm willing to bet this was at least 50/50 writing and Jensen finding what's not on the page, as is his specialty.

It irks me to no end that they cut Demon!Dean leaping off the balcony. A good scene like that is the very friggin' least they owe him after allowing the marionette fight to air.

Edited November 15, 2019 by gonzosgirrl
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