S15.E05: Proverbs 17:3

[SueB]

Quote

SUPERNATURAL
“Proverbs 17:3” – (8:00-9:00 p.m. ET) (TV-14, LV) (HDTV)

RICHARD SPEIGHT, JR. DIRECTS - Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean’s (Jensen Ackles) routine case turns out to be anything but. Richard Speight, Jr. directed the episode written by Steve Yockey (#1505). Original Airdate 11/14/2019.

For the curious:
Proverbs 17:3 For silver and gold, furnace and crucible; men’s hearts are for the Lord’s assaying*.

Other translations use "testing", "trying".  Assaying means: determine the content or quality of (a metal or ore).

[trudysmom]

I had high hopes for this, Yockey and Speight.  Foolish me.

[Jediknight]

I like New Lilith, she was fantastic.

And now we know, the show won't end with one of the brothers killing the other.  It's the ending that Chuck wants, so it's not the ending we're gonna get.

[Demian]

I've been trying to follow along this final season without resorting to bingeing the eight or nine years that I've missed, and I've found I remember nearly none of these apparently recurring characters over the last few episodes.  (The Irish witch?  The Welsh guy who got killmurdered in the hospital by some demon I think I'm supposed to know?  The little blond twink Castiel burned to a crisp in Hell?  Batshit Becky's entire family?  God's sister? Who are these people?)

So, imagine my delight when tonight's primary adversary flipped her eyes that weird cloudy-pink.  I felt like that "I Understood That Reference" meme.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Demian

[gonzosgirrl]

I can't muster up the energy to pick apart this episode, it's just too exhausting.

The ghost pepper bit was amusing. The age jokes were not. The actor playing Lilith was pretty great. Sam's stammering was OTT again. I bet Dean enjoyed beating the snot out of Sam just a little bit (after being killed repeatedly by him). Dean's disappointment  and frustration at the end was heartbreaking. That's all I got.

[patty1h]

14 minutes ago, trudysmom said:

I had high hopes for this, Yockey and Speight.  Foolish me.

Is there any reason for me to watch - even a small bit of goodness:  a funny moment, a Winchester "beauty shot", good fight scene, compelling brotherly moment or will I be wishing I had that hour back at the end?

Edited November 15, 2019 by patty1h

[Whodunnit]

Okay so we're recycling Lilith and apparently it never occurred to anyone to ward baby or to put the gun in one of those curse boxes the bunker has dozens of.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, patty1h said:

Is there any reason for me to watch - even a small bit of  something goodness:  a funny moment, a Winchester "beauty shot", good fight scene, compelling brotherly moment or will I be wishing I had that hour back at the end?

The opening bit with Dean & Sam was amusing.

[ILoveReading]

I feel like Dean is the only one having an even remotely relatable reaction to this whole God thing. 

He was angry that they were rats in a maze, than after the whole Go thing he had a brief surge of a hope/wishful thinking combo.  Then they find out God isn't gone and he has a near melt down. 

Jensen "F-ing" Ackles.  Man that end scene was the fist time I felt any emotion all season.   Dean was barely holding it together.  I though we might finally get a scene where Dean loses it, but he once again chocked it back.   He needs to really lose it this season.  He's buried 14 years of pain. It has to erupt at some point. 

The age joke didn't work because Jensen looks like he barely aged a day. 

The rest of my thoughts belong in bitch/jerk. 

Edited November 15, 2019 by ILoveReading

[Demian]

Actual honest questions:

1. What was the brand on Dream Dean's forearm?  I don't remember that at all.

2.  What's with the gun Lilith melted in her hand?  That's got to be from a season I missed.

Many thanks in advance.

Edited to add:

Quote

The age joke didn't work because Jensen looks like he barely aged a day. 

Agreed.  And they didn't follow the Rule of Threes, which made it even less effective.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Demian

[Castiels Cat]

Well it was obviously another of Chuck/God's drafts for The End and the current motw in which he decided to go full on Samifer for The End and give Dean the Colt to boot to source things up.

I preferred the demonic Dean/MoC version because it was different and they dropped the storyline much too soon... Dean was sooo good in that.

This Lilith was good. Dean passing out was inexplicable except for Chuck's bad writing or the girl being dodgy. 

Nice of Lilith to fill things in although I think it was pretty connect the dots by now.

There was a movie starring Will Farrell which I never saw in which he was the character in a book and he could hear the narration I think.

The premise itself is not awful. It's meta. Unfortunately it needs extraordinary writing especially since Chuck is supposed to be mediocre at best. Ben Edlund could do this. it can be done for a limited run. Not for the full season or a long time.

[Myrelle]

6 minutes ago, trudysmom said:

I had high hopes for this, Yockey and Speight.  Foolish me.

My feelings after watching this one were that Jensen Ackles has SO! outgrown this show; and pretty much every facet of it, to be perfectly honest, and IMO.

The Ackting was Amazing. Dean's all too vulnerable disappointment was a completely palpable beast at the end of this one. Same with and for his concern for the PIP before the Lilith reveal.

I don't think that the ending is going to move me much if Dean winds up killing Sam in the end; but if it's the opposite, then yes-because losing Dean will hurt this fan like hell, but Sam?-not so much.

The Dean age-ist jokes were so stupid. Same with the opening ghost pepper scene of SmugSam and DumbDean. So over that shit. Thank God the end is near.

Speight's direction has rarely done anything for me. Same here. And Yockey's final effort made me feel as if he's much better off moving on and away from Dabb and co.

As for the story, the equalizer is off the table and all they have now is Sam's connection to God via the gunshot wound.

What a surprise. Not.

[Demian]

3 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

There was a movie starring Will Farrell which I never saw in which he was the character in a book and he could hear the narration I think.

Stranger Than Fiction, and you really should watch it, because it's excellent.

[Myrelle]

14 minutes ago, patty1h said:

Is there any reason for me to watch - even a small bit of goodness:  a funny moment, a Winchester "beauty shot", good fight scene, compelling brotherly moment or will I be wishing I had that hour back at the end?

Jensen's acting was top notch again and as always when he has the least little bit of writing to work with-which he had in this one-the least little bit because the Chuck nonsense is just such a terrible storyline and a horrendous way to end this show, AFAIC.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Myrelle

[Katy M]

5 minutes ago, Demian said:

1. What was the brand on Dream Dean's forearm?  I don't remember that at all

The Mark of Cain from Seasons 9 and 10.  It turned DEan into a Demon.

5 minutes ago, Demian said:

2.  What's with the gun Lilith melted in her hand?  That's got to be from a season I missed.

From the season finale last year.  It's the only weapon that can kill Chuck. Sam shot him with it and is now connected to him somewhat.

[Castiels Cat]

6 minutes ago, Demian said:

Actual honest questions:

1. What was the brand on Dream Dean's forearm?  I don't remember that at all.

2.  What's with the gun Lilith melted in her hand?  That's got to be from a season I missed.

Many thanks in advance.

Mark of Cain and the Equalizer.

[Katy M]

9 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The age joke didn't work because Jensen looks like he barely aged a day. 

Yeah.  I mean, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but there is no way everyone would have been questioning his ID.  Did Sam even ever show his, because his picture looked obviously old.  I did kind of like that they used the same IDs from Wendigo. The one thing I'm liking about this season are the callbacks.

[AwesomO4000]

3 minutes ago, Demian said:

What was the brand on Dream Dean's forearm?  I don't remember that at all.

That was the mark of Cain from season 9 and 10.

Dean took it on to kill Abadon (who came in season 8). It had bad side effects, including turning Dean into a demon eventually.

If you are more of a Dean fan, season 9 is good in some ways... If a Sam fan, it's awful.

[Pondlass1]

5 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Jensen Ackles has SO! outgrown this show; and pretty much every facet of it, t

True dat!

[Castiels Cat]

10 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

My feelings after watching this one were that Jensen Ackles has SO! outgrown this show; and pretty much every facet of it, to be perfectly honest, and IMO.

The Ackting was Amazing. Dean's all too vulnerable disappointment was a completely palpable beast at the end of this one. Same with and for his concern for the PIP before the Lilith reveal.

I don't think that the ending is going to move me much if Dean winds up killing Sam in the end; but if it's the opposite, then yes-because losing Dean will hurt this fan like hell, but Sam?-not so much.

The Dean age-ist jokes were so stupid. Same with the opening ghost pepper scene of SmugSam and DumbDean. So over that shit. Thank God the end is near.

Speight's direction has rarely done anything for me. Same here. And Yockey's final effort made me feel as if he's much better off moving on and away from Dabb and co.

As for the story, the equalizer is off the table and all they have now is Sam's connection to God via the gunshot wound.

What a surprise. Not.

Losing the Equalizer is not a loss because killing God is not an option because the universe(s) ends. You have to lock him up.

[Demian]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

The Mark of Cain from Seasons 9 and 10.  It turned Dean into a Demon.

Thanks!  Why does the Mark of Cain on this show look like a "7" with squiggles above it?  Or is that never explained?  And why does the Mark of Cain appear on his forearm, instead of on his forehead, as Biblical lore dictates?

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

From the season finale last year.  It's the only weapon that can kill Chuck. Sam shot him with it and is now connected to him somewhat.

Again:  Thanks!  Doesn't make any goddamned sense at all, but thanks for the explanation!

So, Colt's Manufacturing Company, LLC, is basically paying The CW for product placement now?

[DeeDee79]

15 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Jensen Ackles has SO! outgrown this show; and pretty much every facet of it, to be perfectly honest, and IMO.

I haven't watched yet but I've been thinking this since season 11 when it all started to go downhill. 😭

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

As for the story, the equalizer is off the table and all they have now is Sam's connection to God via the gunshot wound

I'm kind of glad its off the table.   One of my biggest worries was that it was going to come down to Dean shooting Sam and him deciding to use the equalizer so they died together.  One of my two do not want.  The other one was Dean killing Sam.  So I feel a little better now that Sam's visions have also shown Dean killing Sam.  If they go with either option now then the Winchesters really were puppets. 

Of course that doesn't really mean anything on Dabbnatural.

One other interesting thing, (but will probably go nowhere) is when Lilth said she couldn't kill Dean.   She could torture him and make him wish for death, but she needed him alive.  So Chuck might have plans for him.  But considering everything Yockey's last episode set up and took away, I can't even be sure Dabb knows he included that. 

I was watching a review of last weeks episdoe and he commented that it was the first time he found Rob played a believable villain.  A good director can elevate performances.  I'm not a fan of Speight's directing but he should have reminded Jared to change his style. Both Demon Blood Sam and Lucifer Sam came across the same.  Demon Blood Sam was angry and full of rage.  Lucifer was calm and collected.  The two character needs to be played differently because they aren't the same.

Mark of Cain Dean and Demon Dean are just chilling.  We were robbed we got so little of both.   The thing Jensen can do with his face.

I also like how Jensen is playing the Cas thing. (So far) He's concerned and keep in touch (see Cas its not that hard) but he's not moping. 

[DeeDee79]

20 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The age joke didn't work because Jensen looks like he barely aged a day. 

Not a BvJ statement but Sam/Jared looks as old or older than Dean/Jensen IMO. Just saying.

5 minutes ago, Demian said:

And why does the Mark of Cain appear on his forearm, instead of on his forehead, as Biblical lore dictates?

I never knew that! That's very interesting!

[Jediknight]

12 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

the Equalizer.

I'm not calling it that.

[Myrelle]

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

One other interesting thing, (but will probably go nowhere) is when Lilth said she couldn't kill Dean.   She could torture him and make him wish for death, but she needed him alive.  So Chuck might have plans for him.  But considering everything Yockey's last episode set up and took away, I can't even be sure Dabb knows he included that.

She also mentioned his fascination or preoccupation with Dean-I can't recall the exact wording-but as you said, who knows if Dabb even realizes that those lines were written in this one.  

[Demian]

8 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

I'm not calling it that.

Hee!

[SueB]

Welp.  I’m glad the boys know Chuck is manipulating them.  Dean broke my heart at the end.  And the way Sam says he thought it was some messed up PTSD thing.  The boys are so broken. 
 

Lillith was entertaining.  She clearly made a deal with Chuck to get back in the game if she took out the Equalizer.   I really hope they scrapped up the metal.  Because it may still have properties that are useful. 
 

The case was OTT simple.  Was Chuck even trying?   Is his injuries making his writing worse or was he deliberately tipping his hand.  You could go crazy trying to analyze this.  
 

weird ass line: Chuck is pervy towards Dean?   How does one even begin to process that!

i knew as soon as the big bads were werewolf brothers we were in for another ‘monsters parallel the boys’ story.  So Chuck is trying to convince the boys to off each other. Why?

So, a lot of things to think about.  I’ll go watch again.  

[ILoveReading]

Quote

She also mentioned his fascination or preoccupation with Dean-I can't recall the exact wording-but as you said, who knows if Dabb even realizes that those lines were written in this one.  

IIRC this is the 3rd ep they refered to Dean either being tortured or being a torturer.    I wish that was leading somewhere.

[gonzosgirrl]

6 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

She also mentioned his fascination or preoccupation with Dean-I can't recall the exact wording-but as you said, who knows if Dabb even realizes that those lines were written in this one.  

She said Chuck was perving on Dean. Heh.

[Katy M]

18 minutes ago, Demian said:

hanks!  Why does the Mark of Cain on this show look like a "7" with squiggles above it?  Or is that never explained?  And why does the Mark of Cain appear on his forearm, instead of on his forehead, as Biblical lore dictates?

I don't think they explain why it's shaped like it's shaped.  My bible just says that God put the mark on Cain, didn't say where he put it.  But, SPN lore is that the devil gave it to Cain. Apparently on his arm and Cain shared it with Dean in the same place.

[Lemuria]

11 minutes ago, Demian said:

Thanks!  Why does the Mark of Cain on this show look like a "7" with squiggles above it?  Or is that never explained?  And why does the Mark of Cain appear on his forearm, instead of on his forehead, as Biblical lore dictates?

Again:  Thanks!  Doesn't make any goddamned sense at all, but thanks for the explanation!

So, Colt's Manufacturing Company, LLC, is basically paying The CW for product placement now?

In SPN lore, the Mark of Cain was not given to Cain by Chuck but by Lucifer (Chuck initially gave it to Luci for a reason that involves Chuck’s sister, Amara). As per “First Born” in season 9, it was Abel who was cozying up to Lucifer. In order to save his brother’s soul,  Cain agreed to become Lucifer’s servant; Lucifer would let Abel’s soul go to Heaven but Cain had to be the one to kill him. 

[Demian]

3 minutes ago, SueB said:

The boys are so broken. 

They're in their forties, for Christ's sake.  Stop calling them "boys." They're, at best, horrifically damaged adults.

[gonzosgirrl]

5 minutes ago, SueB said:

So Chuck is trying to convince the boys to off each other. Why?

Maybe because, for some contrived reason TBD, he can't actually kill them himself, and he cant stand the idea of this 'verse going on with them in it.

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't think they explain why it's shaped like it's shaped.  My bible just says that God put the mark on Cain, didn't say where he put it.  But, SPN lore is that the devil gave it to Cain. Apparently on his arm and Cain shared it with Dean in the same place.

I think it's supposed to look like the First Blade. 

[ILoveReading]

9 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

She said Chuck was perving on Dean. Heh.

You really can't blame him

[Demian]

20 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

30 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

She said Chuck was perving on Dean. Heh.

You really can't blame him

Honestly, you can't blame Chuck for perving on either of them, now can you?

[Castiels Cat]

25 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

You really can't blame him

Dean is the one who he lets change the story. Dean was the one for whom he wrote the special sacrifice of Jack and murder of Mary for.Dean was the reason Sam gets into all of that trouble. It's all for the OPT. God is a Deangirl.

32 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Maybe because, for some contrived reason TBD, he can't actually kill them himself, and he cant stand the idea of this 'verse going on with them in it.

I think it's supposed to look like the First Blade. 

That's how the original Winchester Gospels were supposed to end... with Dean killing Sam (DeanMichael killing Samifer).

Edited November 15, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[Demian]

32 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

the First Blade. 

And the First Blade is...what, exactly?

[Castiels Cat]

37 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

In SPN lore, the Mark of Cain was not given to Cain by Chuck but by Lucifer (Chuck initially gave it to Luci for a reason that involves Chuck’s sister, Amara). As per “First Born” in season 9, it was Abel who was cozying up to Lucifer. In order to save his brother’s soul,  Cain agreed to become Lucifer’s servant; Lucifer would let Abel’s soul go to Heaven but Cain had to be the one to kill him. 

It's the jawbone of an ass or something originally I think... what Cain used to kill Abel.The MoC appears to be modeled after the weapon. 

42 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

IIRC this is the 3rd ep they refered to Dean either being tortured or being a torturer.    I wish that was leading somewhere.

It might be. They are mining the old days. 

54 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

I'm not calling it that.

Hamarradah then.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[Jediknight]

5 minutes ago, Demian said:

And the First Blade is...what, exactly?

The blade that Cain used to kill Abel.

[Demian]

38 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

In SPN lore, the Mark of Cain was not given to Cain by Chuck but by Lucifer (Chuck initially gave it to Luci for a reason that involves Chuck’s sister, Amara). As per “First Born” in season 9, it was Abel who was cozying up to Lucifer. In order to save his brother’s soul,  Cain agreed to become Lucifer’s servant; Lucifer would let Abel’s soul go to Heaven but Cain had to be the one to kill him. 

Okay, none of this makes any sense at all, but thank you bunches for attempting to explain it to me.  You're a star!

[Castiels Cat]

6 minutes ago, Demian said:

And the First Blade is...what, exactly?

Dean's weapon given to him by Cain after he was given the Mark if Cain. It was taken from him during his demonic phase and given to Crowley immediately before they cured him.

[Demian]

3 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

The blade that Cain used to kill Abel.

Excellent!  Thanks for the explanation!

[SueB]

46 minutes ago, Demian said:

They're in their forties, for Christ's sake.  Stop calling them "boys." They're, at best, horrifically damaged adults.

Yes, they are.  But ‘boys’ is a term of endearment.  Not meant literally.  

[Cambion]

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

This Lilith was good. Dean passing out was inexplicable except for Chuck's bad writing or the girl being dodgy. 

I remember her saying she put Dean to sleep, but will have to verify on a rewatch.

[Castiels Cat]

1 minute ago, Cambion said:

I remember her saying she put Dean to sleep, but will have to verify on a rewatch.

Yes. She did. They explained it. I meant to say that. Otherwise it was inexplicable

[ahrtee]

I do feel obliged to point out (sorry!) that Black Forest, Colorado is not actually a forest--at least, not a wilderness area.  It's a wooded community a little north of Colorado Springs (with a lot fewer trees since the forest fire a few years ago); and no one would camp there unless it's in someone's back yard (or back of a lot where the horses are kept).  Plus the entire area (including downtown Colorado Springs) has bears, mountain lions and bobcats all over--so many bears, in fact, that they just passed an ordinance that everyone living on the west side of town has to buy bear-proof trash cans because so many bears were knocking them over.  

And of course there's the stupidity of the campers trying to zip up their tent, no matter what was outside--as if a zipper would stop a bear or mountain lion, much less a werewolf.

Sorry, I don't know why that bothered me more than the stupidity of the script.   I've got friends who live in Black Forest and a lot of bear poop in my yard in town, and *shrugs*  just want to set the record straight.  OTOH, Monument (the scene of Jus in Bello) is just about 15 miles north of here and nothing like it was in the show either. 

[BlueSapphire]

34 minutes ago, Demian said:

Honestly, you can't blame Chuck for perving on either of them, now can you?

Nope, Sam is also a mighty fine specimen, so this “God is a Deangirl” stuff is pure crap.

[Wynne88]

I have no problem with calling them 'boys' because I agree with SueB that it's a term of endearment, but I sure don't think either of them look like the young men they were when the show started.  They both look their age to me (although still very attractive).  I did get tired of the repeated questioning of Dean's i.d. simply because I didn't think the difference between his picture then and what he looks like now was nearly as extreme as what Sam looked like then and now.  

[Castiels Cat]

5 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I do feel obliged to point out (sorry!) that Black Forest, Colorado is not actually a forest--at least, not a wilderness area.  It's a wooded community a little north of Colorado Springs (with a lot fewer trees since the forest fire a few years ago); and no one would camp there unless it's in someone's back yard (or back of a lot where the horses are kept).  Plus the entire area (including downtown Colorado Springs) has bears, mountain lions and bobcats all over--so many bears, in fact, that they just passed an ordinance that everyone living on the west side of town has to buy bear-proof trash cans because so many bears were knocking them over.  

And of course there's the stupidity of the campers trying to zip up their tent, no matter what was outside--as if a zipper would stop a bear or mountain lion, much less a werewolf.

Sorry, I don't know why that bothered me more than the stupidity of the script.   I've got friends who live in Black Forest and a lot of bear poop in my yard in town, and *shrugs*  just want to set the record straight.  OTOH, Monument (the scene of Jus in Bello) is just about 15 miles north of here and nothing like it was in the show either. 

I rolled my eye over the zipper as well as well as those camping outfits.