S04.E05: Worst Vacation Ever

[ghoulina]

On 10/7/2019 at 9:52 AM, Keywestclubkid said:

Right and she didn't say it in a snide way she just asked why did you not have kids..... I get that kids can be a touchy subject but  she didn't know Leanne from a hole in the wall and was just asking  .... Leanne took it to the attack place ...when she could have just said I didn't want to have kids or With my past it just wasn't for me ..she didn't need to go to 10000000% with the TMI and  well INSERT childhood trauma here you are attacking me for asking that question ...... We get it Leanne you had a fucked up past a lot of us did but we don't bring it up to every chance we get to try to make someone feel like shit .... I honestly cant stand Leanne anymore

Except she did give a simple answer at first. All she said was, "I had a rough childhood." And left it at that. 

The problem was KARY started in with her preachy, condescending behavior. "Well, *I* had a rough childhood too. But I still went and had kids; you can't let that stuff define you."

I'm not saying LeeAnn still wasn't a bit too OTT with her response. But given how Kary spoke about it, I would have had a hard time keeping my cool as well. 

I still maintain that if you don't know someone, you don't need to ask why they never had kids. She didn't even ask, "Why don't you have kids?" She said something like, "So you never WANTED kids?" What if LeeAnn had suffered 6 miscarriages and she came out there with that question? I just don't find it appropriate. If you get close to someone, the topic will eventually come up organically. Otherwise, it's none of your business. 

23 hours ago, Mondrianyone said:

Right in my professional wheelhouse.

The correct usage depends on whether the pronoun is a subject or an object.  "Stephanie and I ate apples" (where it's a subject), but "Mother gave Stephanie and me some apples" (here it's the object).  When we're kids, adults always correct us if we say things like "Tommy and me are going to the store"--"No, it's Tommy and I"--so we think that "I" is always correct as part of a compound, but not the case.  Just take the name out and say the sentence (you'd never say "She gave I an apple") and you'll know which pronoun to use.  That'll be fifty bucks.  ✏️

Can I just say that I love you???? 

I notice so many people are insistent upon using "and I" because they think that's the default - the only correct way to say it. I homeschool my children and it's a constant battle to get them to choose the correct usage. I think it's just because you HEAR it incorrectly so often. But I explain it exactly like you did - take the other person out of the sentence and see what makes sense. 

Don't get me started on when it comes to possessives! "Andy and I's dog is barking." Yikes! 

[Keywestclubkid]

30 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

Except she did give a simple answer at first. All she said was, "I had a rough childhood." And left it at that. 

The problem was KARY started in with her preachy, condescending behavior. "Well, *I* had a rough childhood too. But I still went and had kids; you can't let that stuff define you."

I can agree with your point about how the question was framed when it was asked 100% however I have to point out that she isn't wrong in her assessment and Leanne is letting her past define her still and also using it has as a shield  to get out of trouble and to get what she wants she also uses it has a weapon.... that is not healthy at all .... she has every right not to want to have had kids for whatever reason 1000% Kary tho badly worded was just trying to state that a lot of [people with shit parents went on to be AMAZING parents themselves and maybe she shouldn't cut her self off from that ..tho watching leanne I'm glad she didn't have children cause she would have given them so many issues so maybe she was right and she knew she would fuck them up 

Edited October 8, 2019 by Keywestclubkid

[princelina]

On 10/6/2019 at 4:04 PM, hisbunkie said:

I don’t think the question is so out of place, especially when a group of women are getting to know each other.   I’ve been asked before why I had an only child. It was a personal/relationship decision.  Women in my circle have said they never wanted to be mothers, they were never in a relationship they felt they could have children in, they don’t like children, etc. it does not have to be a painful question if there was no judgment. 

58 minutes ago, Keywestclubkid said:

I can agree with your point about how the question was framed when it was asked 100% however I have to point out that she isn't wrong in her assessment and Leanne is letting her past define her still and also using it has as a shield  to get out of trouble and to get what she wants she also uses it has a weapon.... that is not healthy at all .... she has every right not to want to have had kids for whatever reason 1000% Kary tho badly worded was just trying to state that a lot of [people with shit parents went on to be AMAZING parents themselves and maybe she shouldn't cut her self off from that ..tho watching leanne I'm glad she didn't have children cause she would have given them so many issues so maybe she was right and she knew she would fuck them up 

But maybe Leanne did want to have kids but never was in a right relationship until she was old or etc.  None of us know; she does like to use her past as a defensive crutch, all that is true.  But beyond the question, "So Leanne, do you have kids?"  there is NOTHING else that is appropriate to ask.  Not one thing.  If you chose to have one child you probably don't find "Why?" offensive; if you had wanted a lot and after a bunch of trouble were lucky to have one, you might feel differently.  

[Keywestclubkid]

1 hour ago, princelina said:

But maybe Leanne did want to have kids but never was in a right relationship until she was old or etc.  None of us know; she does like to use her past as a defensive crutch, all that is true.  But beyond the question, "So Leanne, do you have kids?"  there is NOTHING else that is appropriate to ask.  Not one thing.  If you chose to have one child you probably don't find "Why?" offensive; if you had wanted a lot and after a bunch of trouble were lucky to have one, you might feel differently.  

No she’s said why she didn’t want to have kids she stated it was because of her past. That is the reason she gave. And again that is totally up to her. Kary was just also making the argument that shutting yourself off because of that wasn’t how she chose to do it and was trying to be sympathetic is how I took it. But karey hasn’t hung around Leanne to know about her past enough or the extent that she lets her past dictate not only her current behavior but definitely her current actions. But she is seeing how she uses that past has justification of things she does today. Totally just going off Leanns actions and behavior  on this show ALONE and how she’s chosen to act on a public television show where she has shown a total lack of impulse control is extremely jealous has trust issues has threatened to kill someone tried to out someone’s husband has threatened others with violence .....  I mean I can see why she doesn’t second guess her decision at all Leanne knows herself better then anyone else.  So maybe she is self aware enough to see that yes it has made for great reality tv it wasn't and isn’t  conducive to having and raising a child in real life. If only more people were that self aware it would save a lot of kids growing up in a messed up environment. (Looking at you current cast of love after lock up)

Edited October 8, 2019 by Keywestclubkid

[LibertarianSlut]

Please tell me if I'm delving way too deep on this, but I think the "do you have children" question is like a prisoner's dilemma.  We analyzed something like this in my Law and Economics class in law school:  since it's illegal for an interviewer to ask a woman whether she has, or is planning on having children, but not having children might get the woman the job, the best course of action from an economist's perspective is for a woman who does not have children to just volunteer that info at a job interview.

To take it to Real Housewives:  I find that most women who are childless by choice are happy to speak about it.  I've used myself as an example.  Most of the time that it's private and personal and no one's business is when there is difficulty surrounding it--emotional, physical, economic, etc.  So a good option might be that all the childless ladies who are happy to talk about it just volunteer that info up front as a signal that it's ok, so that if a woman doesn't volunteer the info, everyone knows it is not a subject to broach, perhaps not even in a "getting to know you" fashion.

The only flaw I see in my theory is that I am self-conscious and introverted and I would be hard-pressed to go around saying, "hey, did ya hear!  I'm childless and loving it!"  It's kind of awkward, like those couples who say they are constantly having sex.  At some point, it's going to sound strange and defensive.  I would take one for the team if I thought it would make other women less uncomfortable, but until someone asks me to do that, I'll keep mum.  I was kind of just troubleshooting there.  

My husband told me recently he doesn't think people should ask each other if they have children at all, nevermind "why don't you have children?"  And I have been following his lead, and that's working for me.  It's difficult when there's a reality TV element mixed in too.  

[princelina]

I think asking "Do you have children?" is a normal getting-to-know-you question.  Following up with "Why not?' or any variation of that (like "So, you never wanted children?") is rude and will make the person dislike you on the spot.  Leanne has her pat answer down, as do the rest of us, but the fact is that we don't want to tell you 'why not' as a means to get to know you.  So Leanne's reason that she states might be true, or partially true, or just something she says to get people off her back about it.  

In that vein - my sister's cancer just came back, and she was annoyed that her hair fell out just before her class reunion this weekend, because she didn't want to have to discuss it.  A friend advised her to come up with a pat answer to change the subject - and I told her that we were discussing this online, and that if she didn't meet at least one rude fucker who wouldn't drop it I would give her $100!  Because that's just how some people are 😄 

[swankie]

On 10/3/2019 at 8:29 AM, whydoievencare said:

Stephanie is clinically depressed and having a very difficult time.  I feel really badly for her.

Then she needs to get off of reality TV.  Period!  What gets me about her is Leanne is clinically depressed also but Stephanie criticizes her for being vocal about it.  Maybe that's how Leanne copes with what she's been through.  As one clinically depressed person to another she should respect that not everyone is going to deal with their pain the same way she does, by crying incessantly.  

Edited October 9, 2019 by swankie
Added more insight.

[Sage47]

In Season One, Leanne came into the kitchen at a charity party and overheard Brandi & Stephanie talking “trashy” and was SOOO embarrassed by them and said they would lose their place in the charity world for their crass behavior. 

Hmm. 

Fast forward: Leanne talks 100x more gutter than they did. So, is it “okay” now? Do those wealthy snobs just giggle when Leanne asks them who has the hairiest pussy?? Did she ask Jimmy Westcott? 

Leanne, you’re a total nut job. Own it. And stop using your sordid past to justify how you behave. 

[Hiyo]

I always wondered how Leanne got involved in the charity world, considering how isn't from a (semi)prominent family and/or rich...

[princelina]

1 hour ago, Hiyo said:

I always wondered how Leanne got involved in the charity world, considering how isn't from a (semi)prominent family and/or rich...

In season one they explained because she was always a willing volunteer and worker

[Natalie68]

On 10/8/2019 at 1:33 PM, LibertarianSlut said:

Please tell me if I'm delving way too deep on this, but I think the "do you have children" question is like a prisoner's dilemma.  We analyzed something like this in my Law and Economics class in law school:  since it's illegal for an interviewer to ask a woman whether she has, or is planning on having children, but not having children might get the woman the job, the best course of action from an economist's perspective is for a woman who does not have children to just volunteer that info at a job interview.

To take it to Real Housewives:  I find that most women who are childless by choice are happy to speak about it.  I've used myself as an example.  Most of the time that it's private and personal and no one's business is when there is difficulty surrounding it--emotional, physical, economic, etc.  So a good option might be that all the childless ladies who are happy to talk about it just volunteer that info up front as a signal that it's ok, so that if a woman doesn't volunteer the info, everyone knows it is not a subject to broach, perhaps not even in a "getting to know you" fashion.

The only flaw I see in my theory is that I am self-conscious and introverted and I would be hard-pressed to go around saying, "hey, did ya hear!  I'm childless and loving it!"  It's kind of awkward, like those couples who say they are constantly having sex.  At some point, it's going to sound strange and defensive.  I would take one for the team if I thought it would make other women less uncomfortable, but until someone asks me to do that, I'll keep mum.  I was kind of just troubleshooting there.  

My husband told me recently he doesn't think people should ask each other if they have children at all, nevermind "why don't you have children?"  And I have been following his lead, and that's working for me.  It's difficult when there's a reality TV element mixed in too.  

I am childfree and I never get the 'why'.  Most likely is because the 1st thing that comes leaping out of my mouth when asked is GOD NO!  My eldest sister is the same way.  I have found my emphatic answer does get some shocked looks.  HA!  It is such a personal question.  It is best not to ask because you never know the feelings that are associated with the answer.

20 hours ago, princelina said:

I think asking "Do you have children?" is a normal getting-to-know-you question.  Following up with "Why not?' or any variation of that (like "So, you never wanted children?") is rude and will make the person dislike you on the spot.  Leanne has her pat answer down, as do the rest of us, but the fact is that we don't want to tell you 'why not' as a means to get to know you.  So Leanne's reason that she states might be true, or partially true, or just something she says to get people off her back about it.  

In that vein - my sister's cancer just came back, and she was annoyed that her hair fell out just before her class reunion this weekend, because she didn't want to have to discuss it.  A friend advised her to come up with a pat answer to change the subject - and I told her that we were discussing this online, and that if she didn't meet at least one rude fucker who wouldn't drop it I would give her $100!  Because that's just how some people are 😄 

Good thoughts for your sister!

[RedheadZombie]

On ‎10‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 2:55 PM, Keywestclubkid said:

I can agree with your point about how the question was framed when it was asked 100% however I have to point out that she isn't wrong in her assessment and Leanne is letting her past define her still and also using it has as a shield  to get out of trouble and to get what she wants she also uses it has a weapon.... that is not healthy at all .... she has every right not to want to have had kids for whatever reason 1000% Kary tho badly worded was just trying to state that a lot of [people with shit parents went on to be AMAZING parents themselves and maybe she shouldn't cut her self off from that ..tho watching leanne I'm glad she didn't have children cause she would have given them so many issues so maybe she was right and she knew she would fuck them up 

It still remains inappropriate as Leann has hit her fifties and can't do a damn thing about Kary's dubious inspiration.  

[RealHousewife]

4 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

It still remains inappropriate as Leann has hit her fifties and can't do a damn thing about Kary's dubious inspiration.  

Agreed. Does she think LeeAnne should go adopt now or something because all women must experience motherhood one way or another?