Literata

Chances are that was placed there by the venue. My daughter just got married, and the venue placed a "gifts" sign on a table in the foyer. I thought that was a little gauche, actually.

I just have to say: When it comes to the Duggars, Roloffs, Gosselins and Browns, I'll snark till the cows come home. But Jen and Bill and the kids melt my cold, hard heart. Between planning my daughter's wedding and dealing with some health scares in the family, we've been a little stressed around our house. And for some reason, turning on The Little Couple On Demand and just letting it play -- even when I'm not actively watching, but catching bits and pieces as I'm doing other things -- has been a nice escape. I have no doubt Jen and Bill are imperfect, but IMO, they're intelligent, compassionate people who genuinely seem to appreciate everything they have, and whether it's Jen's cancer treatment or her simulation center or their adoption stories or Bill's health issues, they do a nice job of encouraging people to learn from whatever they might be going through. They kind of take me back to the days TLC truly was "The Learning Channel." And Will and Zoey are a bonus. (Wow, that's pretty saccharine. Back to snarking about Smuggar before I end up with elevated blood sugar from my own sweetness... :)

I imagine there are some people who consider Matt a catch, if only for the notoriety. I don't agree. Yuck, but whatever. I remember the little-person actor in the first season with whom Amy had a big-time flirtation. Maybe he'll come back.

I hadn't watched the show for quite a while and am catching up on On Demand, and I'm remembering quite quickly how much I despise Matt, and what a colossal, narcissistic ass I think he is. Amy's not perfect, certainly, but she deserves better. Sorry if this has already been covered, but I'm sure Matt is seeing someone. No way can that man cope with being alone.

It's not up to me to "forgive" Josh -- it's more a matter of my never wanting to see him or his parents on my TV again. I have compassion for him in that I hope he's gotten the help he needs, but the fact remains: He fondled a preschooler. If his sisters have forgiven him, dandy. If God has forgiven him, even better. But I still don't want to have to catch a glimpse of a hand that reached up under his sister's skirt, and I think it would be appropriate for him to just stay away.

This, to me, was the biggest contrast between Brenda and Michelle Duggar. Brenda was in the moment, cuddling and loving her kids. I'm not sure we've ever seen that from Michelle. And yes, overall, I too enjoy seeing that fundamental Christianity doesn't have to be crazy. Things about the way they're raising their kids are still a little off-putting to me -- namely, the lack of belief in higher education -- but in general, they're a whole lot more palatable.

My guess on that one: Maybe they tried to do a present-opening during the party and Will and the kids just weren't interested and couldn't be persuaded to focus. Present-opening is pretty boring for little ones who aren't the ones opening the presents.

The most heartbreaking thing about this, to me, continues to be that Boob and MEchelle failed Josh. Every heterosexual pubescent boy is curious about girls: a boy who acts on that curiosity by victimizing anyone, let alone his sisters, is sick. Forget impulse control; what would go wrong in a young boy's brain to make him WANT to touch the vulva and breasts of his preschool-age sister? I fervently hope he did actually work with a licensed therapist who helped him understand his feelings as well as his impulses. I hate Josh's smugness, narrow-mindedness and bigotry. But overwhelmingly, I pity him. His parents had a responsibility to help him; they didn't, and his life -- and the lives of his wife and kids -- will never be the same.

I think the two families were thrown together for the cameras. IIRC, they said early on that they'd become familiar with one another at ATI conferences, but I don't think they really had any kind of friendship going on. Then TLC undoubtedly came up with the idea to throw some giant families together, and there you go. I remember the first "Meet the Bates(es)" episode; they arrived in the middle of the night, and Kelly had just done a pregnancy test in a truck stop (!). And the conversation was very much the way conversations go when you're meeting someone you really want to be friends with -- "Ooh, I do that, too! I can't believe we have that in common! We're so much alike!", etc. And the kids all seemed to get along, but I genuinely think Gil and Kelly -- who are fundamentalist/Gothard, no doubt, but don't strike me as particularly stupid -- were less enamored as they got to know Boob and MEchelle. As we've said, Gil and Kelly genuinely seem to know and love their kids, and in that household, the older kids undoubtedly help, but they don't actually raise the younger ones. The kids also seem to be pressured less to adhere to strict Gothardite standards, especially after they marry. Based on the Gil/Kelly/kid relationships we've seen on the various Bates shows and on 19KC, my guess is that any molestation would have been handled differently in the Bates house. I can see Gil and Kelly having compassion for the molester, certainly, and being much quicker to find him some help. And I certainly imagine they'd be far more protective of their girls.

I've wondered when Hugh Hefner will come calling for the older girls. No chance they'll bite, but you know there will be an invitation.

I just can't begin to imagine how any entity would risk association with Josh. After several years, many scandals fade in the collective mind of the public, but this is molestation. Of one's sisters. Including a 5-year-old. I can't see anyone getting past the horror to the point of allowing him a chance at redemption.

In order for TLC to still not be making a move to cancel this mess, plans really must be under way for the spin-off involving the older girls. This situation seems to go from bad to worse daily. I can't imagine, if things weren't already in the works, that they wouldn't just cut them loose.

I'm enjoying the book very much. I've read about the first third so far; they're both in college. Wow; both went through so much medically as children, but there's no Matt Roloff-like "I can't believe what I had to endure" verbiage. Neither enjoyed the procedures, clearly, but they, and their parents, viewed the operations and their aftermath very matter-of-factly. They also discussed the divorces of their parents in a similar manner, although both were very much impacted by those events.

I've watched all from the beginning, and I like Bill and Jen very much. In contrast, Matt Roloff frequently infuriated me, Jon and Kate were uncomfortable to watch (so why did I keep watching? No idea), and I, like many others, have snarked about the Duggars from Day One.

This is fabulous and made me tear up all over again. Those poor girls. Especially the other two Duggar girls we're not naming ... thinking of the younger of those girls in particular, and how she was so bereft when Jill left home, breaks my heart. Thanks for sharing this.

Salt Lake Tribune editorial on why the Duggars can't possibly return to TV: http://www.sltrib.com/entertainment/2592626-155/scott-d-pierce-its-clear-the

Hadn't previously seen this piece in Cosmo until a friend posted it on FB. It really gets into the patriarchy, mysogyny, etc., of the family's lifestyle. I think it's excellent. http://www.cosmopolitan.com/entertainment/tv/a41464/the-duggar-parents-are-not-victims-they-are-perpetrators/

My worst fear after all this is that somewhere in America last night, a middle-school-age girl who's being abused watched the interview and ended up telling herself, "It's not a big deal. He's just curious about girls."

As well it should be, in my opinion. MEchelle had the cojones to imply -- no, to state, really -- that gay and transgender men are child molesters. While I can't imagine being swayed by the opinions of MEchelle Duggar, the fans who follow her are likely to hang on every word. And obviously, her comments were especially vile considering that she allowed an ACTUAL child molester to make her own home unsafe for her daughters. I believe a lot of the anger also is in reaction to the fact that Jessa and Jill told America last night that sexual abuse isn't all that bad, especially if your stealth brother is so adept at it that he doesn't even wake you up. The Duggar daughters are victims, certainly. But the entire family is doing a huge disservice to anyone who has dealt with or is dealing with the tragedy of sexual abuse. The family is not being victimized because of their beliefs, and frankly, that assertion makes me ill. They're being criticized, and quite rightly so, for working in tandem with crisis communicators to downplay a horrible, horrible chain of events.

Get them off my TV, forever. I don't even know where to begin. Laughing when Megyn asked them if they ever fought with Josh about the abuse ... bragging about Josh's stealth molestation techniques ... blaming an "agenda" for their issues ...praising their parents' handling of the situation... I can't imagine a more horrifying hour. There's no rehabilitating any of them. They need to go.

So. Much. Word. Prior to the interview, I was of the "don't get rid of all the Duggars; focus on the girls" school. Now I just want them gone. All of them. What did it for me: "It wasn't like this was rape or anything," Boob says. Sorry, Boob. Let's see: Among other atrocities, your son touched the breasts and vulva of your 5-YEAR-OLD DAUGHTER as she sat on his lap. As a psychologist stated on CNN last night, Josh could very well have been grooming his victims; "Come here; let me read you a story." What little girl wouldn't be all about being read to by a much-adored older brother? So sad, and so sick. Also, "Josh was curious about girls." Excuse me while I vomit. Teenage boys who are "curious about girls" steal Playboy and Penthouse from the local convenience store. They don't molest preschoolers. In what universe would parents in this situation not move hell or high water to protect their daughters? There is no rehabilitating this family. TLC, if you want to retain any credibility at all, get rid of them. Permanently. Today.

It is indeed. I know the statute of limitations has passed, and I'm not well-versed enough on this topic to know the answer, but would there be any justification for Children and Family Services to make sure the M-kids are OK?

I'm sure that's precisely what will happen. IMO, this can't be anything but a softball interview. If it were going to be anything else, there would have to be questions about how the Duggars' beliefs and values impacted their handling of the situation. And you know that's not going to happen. I'm speculating the whole thing is going to be about downplaying what Smuggar actually did, and about forgiveness and redemption. It's the Duggars' last gasp at saving a sinking ship, and I don't really see it having much of an impact. If anything, I think it will clue people in to an even greater degree about how not-mainstream they are.

I've been writing this in my head all day, so here goes. I would watch a spin-off. I would watch it every week. Even if it's boring, I would still probably watch. I've been asking myself hard questions about why I began watching the Duggars and why I continued to watch them. After all, I'm not their demographic, with the exception of my being female. I have a master's and a director-level position with a large not-for-profit; I was raised Catholic and no longer attend church. I'm a card-carrying, liberal Democrat. I'm a mother who willingly sent my kids to school, didn't bat an eye when they said swear words, and accompanied my teenage daughter to the gynecologist to get her first birth-control prescription. And yet, I never missed a Tuesday night, and I'm hoping the girls get their own show. Why? Because if not, I'd miss the Duggars. I kind of miss them already. I began watching them because I was curious -- 14 children and pregnant again? What the hell? WHY the hell? And even though I thought the family was bizarre, I looked forward to each subsequent special. I began to do my research about them, and I learned about Gothard and Quiverfull. I was horrified, but still, I watched. I found TWoP and started to snark, and found that others were like me, which made me feel less strange; other viewers were appalled by MEchelle and Boob, too, but they liked the kids and were rooting for them to eventually break free. As we got to "know" the kids -- obviously, we didn't know them, but you know what I mean -- I liked them even more, and paid even less attention to Boob and MEchelle. I enjoyed Jessa's snark and Jinger's thinly veiled sarcasm; I cheered Jill's and Jana's attempts to integrate to some degree with the outside world. I was happy to see Smuggar and Anna leave Arkansas, even though I was thoroughly disappointed with Smuggar's career choice. I admired Anna's abilities as a mother and enjoyed watching their cute, smart kids. Just as I enjoyed watching the kids experience Disney World for the first time, I enjoyed watching Jill fall in love, and I liked Derick's relative normalcy. Even though I had hoped they'd somehow wait a while to have a child, I watched Jill's Instagram for updates on her pregnancy, and I was relieved when she had a healthy baby. And the weddings ... I may have shed a tear or two when bumbling Boob gave away his girls. In short, I allowed myself to be sucked into something that wasn't real at all, but from the very first, I was rooting for those kids -- the j'slaves, especially. And I'm rooting for them even more now. I don't know what this scandal means for them; might it give one or two the courage to break away, or will it pull them all deeper into the fold? I don't know. But I can hope, I guess. I don't know how a spin-off would work, really; I have no desire to see Boob or MEchelle or Smuggar on my TV again, ever. But if the girls want to continue the franchise, I think they should be able to try. If it's truly their decision, it would be all that much sweeter. Something ought to be their decision, after all.

(Mods, I moved this to the Smuggar and Anna thread, as it meshed better with the convo there. Feel free to delete here.) I've been writing this in my head all day, so here goes. I would watch a spin-off. I would watch it every week. Even if it's boring, I would still probably watch. I've been asking myself hard questions about why I began watching the Duggars and why I continued to watch them. After all, I'm not their demographic, with the exception of my being female. I have a master's and a director-level position with a large not-for-profit; I was raised Catholic and no longer attend church. I'm a card-carrying, liberal Democrat. I'm a mother who willingly sent my kids to school, didn't bat an eye when they said swear words, and accompanied my teenage daughter to the gynecologist to get her first birth-control prescription. And yet, I never missed a Tuesday night, and I'm hoping the girls get their own show. Why? Because if not, I'd miss the Duggars. I kind of miss them already. I began watching them because I was curious -- 14 children and pregnant again? What the hell? WHY the hell? And even though I thought the family was bizarre, I looked forward to each subsequent special. I began to do my research about them, and I learned about Gothard and Quiverfull. I was horrified, but still, I watched. I found TWoP and started to snark, and found that others were like me, which made me feel less strange; other viewers were appalled by MEchelle and Boob, too, but they liked the kids and were rooting for them to eventually break free. As we got to "know" the kids -- obviously, we didn't know them, but you know what I mean -- I liked them even more, and paid even less attention to Boob and MEchelle. I enjoyed Jessa's snark and Jinger's thinly veiled sarcasm; I cheered Jill's and Jana's attempts to integrate to some degree with the outside world. I was happy to see Smuggar and Anna leave Arkansas, even though I was thoroughly disappointed with Smuggar's career choice. I admired Anna's abilities as a mother and enjoyed watching their cute, smart kids. Just as I enjoyed watching the kids experience Disney World for the first time, I enjoyed watching Jill fall in love, and I liked Derick's relative normalcy. Even though I had hoped they'd somehow wait a while to have a child, I watched Jill's Instagram for updates on her pregnancy, and I was relieved when she had a healthy baby. And the weddings ... I may have shed a tear or two when bumbling Boob gave away his girls. In short, I allowed myself to be sucked into something that wasn't real at all, but from the very first, I was rooting for those kids -- the j'slaves, especially. And I'm rooting for them even more now. I don't know what this scandal means for them; might it give one or two the courage to break away, or will it pull them all deeper into the fold? I don't know. But I can hope, I guess. I don't know how a spin-off would work, really; I have no desire to see Boob or MEchelle or Smuggar on my TV again, ever. But if the girls want to continue the franchise, I think they should be able to try. If it's truly their decision, it would be all that much sweeter. Something ought to be their decision, after all.