apinknightmare

Yeah, he said they would've explored him sleeping with guys if the show hadn't gotten canceled. I enjoyed him so much on Hung - he was such a lovable dumbass.

I think a lot of those buckles are just for some weird kind of Edward Scissorhands-esqe aesthetic, and probably aren't functional. I bet she could slip into the costume and only need to buckle a few. That, of course, begs the question on why someone who will be fighting people wanting to grab at her would have so many parts of her costume that could get pulled on/snagged on something, but she's a DA going out at night as a vigilante and wearing fingerless gloves, so...yeah, I got nothing.

This is killing me.

I think she just didn't mention it was on the comms because it's a given. Regardless of whether she was just randomly listening in for whatever reason or if Oliver called her so she could listen in and she was being careful with her words when she explained that to Barry, it makes more sense to me that's how she found out than her being up on that roof. If Oliver and Barry did meet at the hospital, why would Oliver access the roof in any way where someone could see him, since he obviously left and then put on his suit? Was Felicity lurking in the stairwells? Why would she go and cry on the rooftop of all places when she could just get in her car and go home? Or cry in her car? I don't think there's anything wrong with putting some thought into it because there's a missing piece in there somewhere, and she does tell Barry that she heard him and Oliver talking on the rooftop that night...how would she know they were on a rooftop? I just really hate the idea of her following him, and I don't understand why he'd go and change into Arrow gear just to meet him on the roof of a building he's already at when their discussion has nothing to do with Arrow business and at the time Oliver had no idea that Barry had developed powers. ETA: I really don't think they were on the rooftop of the hospital - the roof Oliver jumps off of looks like it's only four or five stories up. In all the hospital shots we've seen (Oliver looking out of the window in the pilot, in Year's End, Lila's room in The Calm), it seems like it's definitely a high rise.

Katie's always been really active on the con circuit, and EBR, CH and WH haven't. I don't think there's anything to read into any of it.

Seems like it's in reference to whatever they're doing with Oliver.

And in the end Malcolm still has how many copies of the video evidence that Thea killed Sara to hold over Oliver's head - so they're still in the same position they were in before, only now they've pissed Ra's off. I get that you're trying to make a point, and it will inevitably be a valid one with this shared universe, but you are absolutely choosing the wrong episode to make it with.

Yeah, I think there will be some head-scratching moments in the future when the team doesn't ask Barry and co. for help, so the shared universe could become a bit of a problem. But I don't think Oliver would have ever asked for Barry's help with Ra's, for lots of reasons.

But time had nothing to do with their issue - yes, Ra's imposed a 48-hour deadline on them, but Oliver didn't do what he did because he ran out of time and couldn't figure out an alternative, he did what he did because Malcolm was threatening Thea and had who knows how many backups of that video stashed away on flash drives that would've been impossible to find. Barry wouldn't have been able to do anything about that. I think the deadline's only purpose was to get things resolved within the hour of the show. And you do have a point that Barry could've done something to defeat Ra's, but do you really think that Oliver would ever ask Barry to do anything that would put him on the LoA's radar and/or make him a target? No way.

Felicity going to the foundry after that talk really doesn't make any sense, but only because Oliver was currently living there - if he wasn't I could see her going there to do some work since she probably wouldn't have been able to sleep. I highly doubt she followed him onto the roof though, because she'd have to have a) overheard his cell conversation when Oliver probably would've seen her stop to listen, b) followed him to wherever he changed into his suit (whether he had one stashed away with him or went back to the foundry) and then c) followed him again to whatever roof they met on, assuming he got there in a way she COULD even follow him (which he probably didn't, considering he left by shooting an arrow into a building and swinging over to it), and d) would've been stupid enough to follow him somewhere potentially dangerous just because she's curious, when she has other, safer ways of finding out what he's up to (she's not Laurel! :)) We can also safely assume that she wasn't present on the rooftop, because Barry made a Flash exit, and in "Going Rogue," Felicity really did react like she'd never seen it. I think it makes more sense that she heard them over the comms, either because she had some kind of security rigged to know if Oliver went out as Arrow if she wasn't around or because she saw Oliver hurry off somewhere (he left the hospital almost right after she did) and got curious. Maybe he let her know that Barry called him and left the channel open so she could hear? Obviously it's just a not very well thought out plot device for Flash purposes, but it makes more sense to me that she overheard it over the comms than by actually following Oliver somewhere.

How could Barry have helped with Ra's ultimatum? The team didn't run out of time to find Sara's killer - the issue was that Oliver wasn't willing to give her up.

Yeah, that's what she said.

Sorry, I didn't mean that she didn't know about Barry, I meant that Barry didn't know that she knows. Because he was surprised to find out that she knew about his powers in "Going Rogue" - the season zero comics are supposed to take place before that episode. And Ray and Felicity were still referring to PI as QC in ep 3x05. So, I think maybe these comics are supposed to take place closer to real time in the show than the first run did.

I wonder if they changed that and this is the beginning of a new series set further in the season (wasn't the last installment an ending of sorts)? Because not only does Felicity not know about Barry yet if that timeline holds, but Palmer Technologies was still Queen Consolidated then.

Yeah, I thought that whole exchange was really weird, and I don't like that they made Felicity look like she wasn't taking her job seriously just so they could get Ray in there. The whole thing would've worked without her having been late to a meeting.

She had her legs around his waist and he dropped her when he was (I think) lowering her to the bed.

See, I believe Laurel would do what she's doing for Sara, but the problem is that she isn't doing what she's doing for Sara. She's doing it because she wants to be one of the cool kid vigilantes. This would've been fixed for me if a) she actually bothered to look for Sara's killer and b) had never decided to go at that woman beater with a bat. I wish they'd had her looking for Sara's killer and training so she was ready when she found him/her, and left the attempt at "doing good" out of it. I mean, my expectations are very low, but that would've gone a long way towards making me at least believe her a little.

I don't think the speed thing is that much of an issue - they've established that Starling City is 600-ish miles away from Central City, and while Barry's been able to achieve 700-ish mph in short bursts (and Mach 1 for a short while), he probably wouldn't be able to get to SC in time to help out where time is really of the essence. Like, in the Capt. Boomerang case, or if anything was going down in less than an hour. Not that it might not be an issue in other cases, but...

Yep. Which is especially stupid, considering they threw the character they kept under the bus for the one they killed off a handful of episodes later.

I don't really need to see a deep sisterly bond in order to buy Laurel wanting revenge. I'm not particularly close to my sister, and if someone murdered her and I saw her land on a dumpster and then the street, I'd probably want to rain down vengeance on the SOB who did it too. You don't have to be close to someone to love them, and things were complicated between those two - I'm sure there are a lot of mixed emotions in there. For me, Laurel's motivation isn't the problem so much as the way it's being executed. First, she's out for blood against Komodo and she's all about finding out who killed Sara. Then she goes out and gets her ass beat because she decides she wants to "do good." I can't remember if she said outright this was to honor Sara - it doesn't really matter. So then she goes out to get training so...she can go out and "do good" and not get her ass beat again? So she can kill Sara's killer? The problem is that they've intertwined those two things, so her actions and motivations are muddled. They should've just had her go get training with the intent of getting good enough to take the killer on in a fight or something. To top all that off, she hasn't done jack to actually find Sara's killer, so it comes off like all she wants to do is become a vigilante, when I should at least believe that this isn't an entirely selfish thing she's doing. I can't tell if it's awful storytelling or . Maybe it's both, but it's probably the former. It may look different after seeing the season as a whole, but as of now I can't get behind her journey, because Sara's death really does look like a blatant excuse to get her in the costume. I mean, I know that's what it is, but there are ways to sell that in-story without Laurel looking like a selfish, wannabe vigilante asshat.

MG tweeted that Felicity wouldn't be looking for Oliver. I think they don't ask for help searching for him because they themselves don't search for him.

And it would be typical Laurel to think that she's the one who is going to do it. Forget Diggle and Roy, who have actually been trained to fight, Laurel's spent three four months learning to box, she'll handle what the police can't. She initially went to Ted Grant's gym to question him about a burglary that one of his students was allegedly involved in - she's mentioned burglaries several times since. I thought maybe that was leading to something with her going out as BC, possibly with Ted Grant because one of his students gets mixed up in something. I could be wrong, but it seems like there's a reason those burglaries have been mentioned more than once.

What exactly is there to speculate about? If Oliver quit and Ray, Laurel or Roy took over, then I would expect that Felicity would continue to do what she's always done, because I think Felicity's committed to the cause, not to Oliver being the leader of that cause. I'm less sure about Diggle - I think he'd still carry on, but IDK since he "left" the team after Sara was born. I think that says exactly what it should - that people generally believe that not much would change with the two of them if Oliver wasn't around, which speaks highly to both of their characters, IMO.

I agree with you that Team Arrow is a draw and I would absolutely like to see more of Felicity and Diggle, but that conversation was about heroism and whether or not Diggle and Felicity are considered heroes, and whether or not they need to be called heroes in the show. So, it was definitely an argument about semantics (hero vs. superhero), not about screen time. They should have more screen time, IMO, always more.

My mileage is that I don't care how Felicity and Diggle referred to outside of the story as long as they keep having their heroic moments in the show, that's why I wrote "I don't care" in front of all of my points. Honest question, because I don't remember - has anyone on this show outside of Oliver been referred to as an actual hero? Oliver told Slade he helped him become a hero specifically because Slade kept telling him he was a killer and Oliver knew that would bug him. It was a taunt more than an acknowledgement, so it's not like he was giving Slade credit and denying that to Diggle and Felicity. Would it be nice for Oliver to verbally acknowledge their roles in front of the audience? Absolutely. Does it have anything to do with Diggle and Felicity being heroes? No. Roy got a "good job out there tonight" because Oliver is mentoring him - he's not mentoring Diggle and Felicity. And I don't think that acknowledging Diggle's hero status would stop people from writing idiotic articles like the one that started this discussion - it speaks more to how that particular person views civilians in a costumed superhero drama more than it does how valuable the audience thinks Diggle is and/or whether or not they think he's a hero. The general outrage over it is enough proof of that, IMO. Look, I get why this matters and/or is upsetting to a lot of people, and I'm not trying to discount or discredit that. I think it's just reached a point where (for me) it's kind of...nit, nit, nit, nit nitpick about everything, and my natural instinct is to go against the tide sometimes (which is probably a big clue that I need to take a nice, long break from discussion boards), because despite my disappointment in this season, I'm still entertained by the show, and I guess my expectations are just...not that high. So, for me, as long as Diggle and Felicity continue to be their brave, heroic selves, I don't care about semantics in the grand scheme of things.