apinknightmare

I don't think the way he kissed her had anything at all to do with him thinking about Ray. I think it had everything to do with him thinking about Felicity, and not wanting to complicate things for her even more than he already had after being so wishy-washy with her for months and knowing there was a chance that he might not come back. He thought she might've been moving on, and he had resolved in the Flash episode that he needed to let her go. There was absolutely no indication that he was ready or willing to allow himself to be with her. He didn't even volunteer that he loved her - he gave her an opening to ask him about it, and when she did, he unburdened himself by letting her know how he felt. It was simple and true, and then he left.

I think something will happen that will make them actually believe it. Without a body, I'm not sure what this could be, but yeah...they wouldn't turn down the chance at dramatic payoff like that for sure.

I don't think the execution of it was either, but what I meant was that when you're marching off toward possible death and you're kissing the woman you love goodbye, you usually don't go for the forehead. So...it was platonic in a way, even though the feelings behind it definitely aren't.

Yeah, but I think she's got a tracker on him, hence the "She'll know where he is. Or where he isn't." He didn't say she would think he was dead, just that she wouldn't be looking for him - which she wouldn't need to; she'd know where he is.

It could be more than one person. It should be more than one person. At least Diggle and Felicity, and probably Roy. But definitely Diggle and Felicity, since they know all about the people they're dealing with and know that there is absolutely no reason to trust anything they say. Felicity's had two instances of people she thought were dead coming back around - Digg was around for Sara, so if anyone believes he's dead, those two at least should doubt it. Since Roy's the only other masked vigilante in town with Oliver gone, I doubt it's them working together so much as Roy doing what he can to keep Laurel from getting herself killed (if MG's assertion that she's going to be a shitty fighter is actually true).

I think it's especially sad since when he kisses her goodbye, he goes for her forehead instead of her mouth. We know it's because he saw her kissing Ray, and he said he wanted her to be happy. He thinks she's moving on and finding that happiness and he doesn't want to mess with that (and he probably figures there wouldn't be much point to it anyway since there's a chance he might not come back), so he keeps it platonic, even though he's probably dying to do anything but. And she's probably a little disappointed since he's keeping it platonic, and she's probably dying for him to do anything but. I think his "I love you" really did stun her, the beautiful, usually emotionally repressed, idiotic butthead.

So, I'm confused. Sin's coming back in 12 to offer up some valuable information into the investigation about who killed Sara. Why would anyone still be investigating this? Is Laurel kept in the dark about where Oliver went and why, and if she's unaware that the team knows who killed Sara, does she finally get up off her ass to do some work on the case since mom blessed her vengeance, uncover something and call Sin in, or does the team find something liking Sin to the crime? Or is there some other kind of plot afoot as to why Sara was in town that's going to give a better insight into why she would've been killed that isn't related to Malcolm wanting to erase his blood debt with Ra's (had she uncovered something big? Is there some shady shit going down in Starling that Ra's is a part of?)? Is there more to her asking Quentin and Laurel not to tell the other that she was in town?

It could be the entire team, for all we know. Unless I'm forgetting something, I don't think MG has said anything that rules that out. I still think Felicity must've put a tracker on him, and that's why she won't technically be looking for him - she'll know where he is (and where he isn't). I keep hoping that her epic reaction to finding out that he's "dead" is a) putting together a plan to annihilate Ra's (or try to, I guess), or getting the/a team together to go and find him. Maybe Diggle and A.R.G.U.S.? IDK

I will be kind of annoyed if Lazarus Pits are put into play, but I won't cry foul, since they are a thing. I don't think it necessarily means it opens the doors for metahumans and other superpowers to be introduced, unless this version of LP gives Oliver long-lasting super strength or something, which...no thank you. And like many others have said before, it would be nice if death meant something, although I don't actually need it to. My hesitation about LP existing in this 'verse is that I think it makes further head-scratching gotchas and twists more likely, and I'm not quite down with that. I wouldn't mind if his scars were gone, since that would possibly mean more shirtless salmon laddering since SA wouldn't have to sit for hours in the makeup chair. Even though I'm sure looking at those scars in the mirror was a reminder to Oliver of all that he'd been through, I don't think he needs to see the scars to remind him of that - so them actually existing isn't really of any importance to me. But I posted in The Climb thread that after making myself rewatch the last scene, it doesn't seem like he falls that far (granted, he falls on his back onto a cliff, but...), it could be survivable with some luck, some magical island herbs, and a lil TLC.

I just somehow managed to make myself watch the ending of The Climb again, and it doesn't seem like Oliver fell that far - there's the sickening thud of beautiful body hitting cliff shortly after he fell, so, maybe not completely unsurvivable with a metric shit ton of island herbs, a little luck, and some TLC?

That Lazarus Pit poster is fan art, isn't it?

The only problem I have with this is that without a body, all the people who would tell them that Oliver's dead are people they shouldn't be trusting at all, and they know they shouldn't be trusting these people. So why would they believe it? I don't understand.

She should've said it, and I understand why she didn't. But I think it will be a source of great regret for her once she finds out that he's "dead." Same. I'm not at all interested in Laurel's storyline, and I'm not as invested knowing Oliver's not around, but I am interested if they'll give us a hint about what actually happened to him (I want to see what happens when whoever that person is approaches his body), and I'm invested in what'll happen to Team Arrow once they find out.

So, Malcolm saying "Oliver Queen is dead," in the preview...is this the part of the season where we finally get down to the "a man cannot live by two names" business? So he's going to let go of Oliver and devote himself to being Arrow? Even though I thought he had already tried doing that? Or maybe he hadn't really given it his best shot? I guess that makes any personal growth over the last 9 eps null and void? Or...maybe that's not where they're going with it? Is Malcolm going to give him the same stuff he gave Thea to get him to do his bidding?

Maybe the time jump isn't as long? It was already Christmas in their timeline (per the article Felicity was reading about the attack at STAR Labs, which happened a couple of days before Christmas IIRC), so they're already a couple of weeks ahead of us. So it's not quite a month when they come back from the hiatus.

He didn't tell them where he was going - he just told Felicity that they were going to a neutral site, and she didn't even ask him where it was (granted, it could be because she knew he wouldn't tell him), but that's why I was hoping she might've put a tracker somewhere on him without him knowing about it.

So, Oliver told Felicity that they were meeting at a neutral site and she never asked where it was (that is the freaking obvious question to ask, Felicity). MG said she wouldn't be looking for him because she'd know where he was (or where he wasn't). She put a tracker in his shoes or something, right? Or somewhere on his person that was not his shirt?

I don't think he has amnesia - there are BTS pics of him suited up with Roy for 3x13 - unless maybe it's selective amnesia. "Felicity? Felicity who?" why did I do that to myself

Regarding 2: I would actually enjoy another gotcha where we find out that Nyssa and Oliver or Maseo and Oliver (or all three) had a meeting and worked out some kind of contingency in case he got skewered and fell off a cliff. I want this so badly, and I usually hate gotchas, too.

I don't know that they thought he was definitely going to beat Ra's necessarily, but what would be the point of making him doubt himself when he was determined to go off and fight? But yeah, it seems like there was some overconfidence at play, although once Oliver comes back from being mostly/completely dead, it's good that he'll have a better idea of what they're dealing with.

This show angers me quite often, and I'm disappointed with the way things have unfolded this season, last night included. But I just keep thinking about Oliver shaking Digg's hand, and giving Roy a hug, and the way he looked at Felicity after he kissed her forehead and the lightness to him after he simply told her he loved her (like it was the only thing he was sure of, as Angel12d wrote above). And I think about his face while he was kneeling on that cliff and how utterly surprised he looked that he lost, and all the faces that flashed through his mind as he was dying and I legit tear up. Oliver Queen makes me feel things, I'm just so invested in him. I'm glad that hasn't changed, and I just hope the rest of it gets better during the back half of the season.

I will jokingly call Ray a stalker, but I don't truly believe that he is one. I've had a stalker, and there's a level of terror involved that I've never gotten from Felicity. She's always seemed more annoyed and put out by him than anything, which, given his behavior, is perfectly understandable. When I found out that Felicity was getting a love interest this season, I was genuinely excited. I love her and I want her to be treated well, and to be happy and have love in her life. I wanted to root for this person, I wanted him to finally give Felicity her due. Ray has done that, but in arguably questionable and/or icky ways. And what kills me is that it didn't have to be this way - the writers could've written Ray so that we weren't sure what his intentions were and shown that he was socially inept without going the route that they have. I didn't (and don't) expect him to be perfect - I ship her with Oliver and lord knows there's some problematic behavior there, but at least with him I know where he's coming from. I'm hoping now that Ray's secrets (or a few of them, I guess) are out there he'll back off with some of this stuff a bit. I hate that this relationship (or potential relationship) requires dissertation-like posts on why his behavior is or is not creepy, and I'm not putting down the people who write these posts - I've been one of them on occasion. I just hoped for and expected more than that; it's just another way in which this season has been disappointing thus far.

They do, it's just the whole being run through and bleeding out the mouth that's troubling. I really hope the baggie of island herbs managed to quell the internal bleeding. Did he stash some on the side of the cliff for safekeeping just in case? Or were they in his lil messenger bag up on the mountaintop? And it's like, screw you, Ra's. You run him through, make him fall off a cliff, and on the off chance he survives he doesn't even have a shirt to keep him warm, although maybe his nipples being hard enough to cut glass might come in handy, idk

Also, if Sara's death is so souper seekrit, maybe stop going to her grave? Especially since it seems to be in Starling City's only cemetery?

"Double pane? Nah, fuck it." - Starling City's Doors and Windows guy