lasu

To be with the person you love? There are lot of reasons to get married other than monogamy. I don't judge another person's marriage based on whether or not they chose to be ethically non-monogamous. You can be in love with one person and want to spent your life with that person as your partner AND want to have sex with other people. And that's ok! What's not ok is not to be honest and ethical about it. And regardless, I still maintain it makes DENISE the cheater. She knew she was married too, lol.

OK. This is where we differ. I think a married couple can choose to be ethically non-monogamous and you don't. That's fine. This has nothing to do with my argument.

Can you not just answer the question? I don't understand why you keep changing what I'm asking. I'm literally asking if Dick and Jane are legally wed and Dick and Jane meet Sue. Dick and Jane tell Sue that Jane can have sex with other women. Jane and Sue have sex. Did Sue do something wrong? Can you answer yes or no to this particular scenario? Please don't change it or add anything on. Just the scenario I presented, did Sue do something wrong?

OK, let's try this one more way: Dick and Jane are legally wed. Dick and Jane meet Sue. Dick and Jane tell Sue that Jane can have sex with other women. Jane and Sue have sex. Did Sue do something wrong? Also, I'll ask one more time: who did Brandi cheat on?

Again, this is a different debate. This is whether or not the story is true. I have not argued this one way or another. Who did Brandi cheat on? Of course I can change the rules of my marriage. My marriage doesn't have to fit your definition of marriage. Marriage is not always defined by monogamy, although it's of course fine to want monogamy. But an ethically open couple's marriage is not inherently worth less than a monogamous marriage. You can decide what is cheating in a relationship and what's not. YOU should decide that for yourself, not let other people tell you how your relationship should function. It might be wrong for YOU, and that's fine. But married people can choose to have an ethically open relationship, and there isn't anything wrong with that. If I meet a man and his wife, and the thee of us talk and she tells me she's into the idea of me having sex with her husband, and as a single woman I decide to go for it, I've done nothing morally wrong, and neither has the husband. It's all about being honest and ethical.

You keep quoting me and then arguing about whether or not the story is true. I've never said I think people should believe Brandi. I have not said I believe the story. My point has been this: IF Aaron, Denise, and Brandi discussed the fact that Denise can have sex with other women and IF Brandi had sex with Denise based on that conversation and IF Denise afterwords told her Aaron would be mad... then Denise is in the wrong, NOT Brandi. That's it. I don't know another way to say this to make it clearer. Whether or not Brandi knew Denise is married is not relevant, IF she had sex with Denise based on the conversation with Aaron that it was ok. Married people do not have to choose to be monogamous, and if they choose not be, it's not cheating.

OK, but this is a different argument. This isn't the question I asked. It's not fair to tack something extra onto my scenario. My scenario was Denise, Aaron, and Brandi sit down and Aaron says, "Brandi, it is ok with me if you have sex with my wife, Denise." Then, Brandi and Denise have sex. You have changed the scenario to Denise, Aaron, and Brandi sit down and Aaron says, "Brandi, it is ok with me if you have sex with my wife, Denise." Then, Brandi and Denise have sex. Then Brandi acts hurt and wronged. I get that you don't believe the story. I just don't understand how you see her as the bad guy in the story we have been told, which is all I've been talking about. My argument has never been that I believe Brandi. That is why I have said over and over again, "the story as presented". You are having a different debate than me, which seems to be more is Brandi a bad person/is the story true, while I am trying to debate whether or not Brandi is bad person in the particular story she has told.

Let me ask this, if Denise, Aaron, and Brandi sit down and Aaron says, "Brandi, it is ok with me if you have sex with my wife, Denise." Then, Brandi and Denise have sex. Did Brandi do something wrong? I would say no, even though she had sex with a married person. And in this scenario, Denise would not be a cheater. She didn't break the rules. A married couple should be able to define their own marriage, and it should be up to the two people in the marriage whether or not they choose to have sex with other people. Again (again, again, again), my argument is not that anyone should believe Brandi's story or assume she is telling the truth or that she doesn't have ulterior motives. I'm only arguing that the story, as told by Brandi, Denise did something wrong, not Brandi.

No. This is exactly not right. Cheating is breaking the rules. If my imaginary husband and I were to decide it was ok to have sex with other people, it would then be bizarre for someone else to say my husband cheated on me. We get to decide the rules for our marriage, and not everyone's marriage is monogamous, and that's ok! If my husband and I agreed I could have sex with other women, having sex with other women would NOT be cheating. Having sex with another man WOULD be cheating. Our marriage, our rules. And again, no matter how you look at this - Brandi isn't a cheater! She's not in a committed relationship. Who did she cheat on? Aaron? She's not in a relationship with Aaron. Denise is. Denise is the only one who could be a cheater. At worst, Brandi knowingly helped someone cheat, at best, unknowingly helped someone cheat. But no matter what, she can't be the cheater in this situation.

Well, it is about the semantics. Again, no matter how you look at this, Brandi isn't the cheater; Denise is the only one would have been a cheater. Brandi had sex with someone she thought was free to have sex with her. She didn't do anything wrong. Yes, she could choose to not have sex with anyone in a committed relationship, regardless of what that couple's boundaries are. I don't have any stats, but I would imagine most people wouldn't have sex with someone in an open relationship, and I get it, the same as I get why some people don't enjoy casual sex and some do, the same as I get some people need monogamy and for others monogamy will never work. I have no issue with a single woman sleeping with someone in an ethically open relationship because that's not cheating. Brandi isn't upset that she's a cheater - she's not a cheater. She's upset that she (supposedly) helped someone else cheat without realizing it.

But, that's not what Brandi said. Brandi didn't say she was upset because she thought she and Denise were going to be together and have future plans. She said she was upset because, based on prior conversations with Denise and Aaron, it was in-bounds for Denise and her to have sex. According to the story AS PRESENTED, Brandi would not have had sex with Denise is she had known Aaron wouldn't be ok with it, that it was breaking a rule of their marriage, and that she would be expected to help cover it up. That would mean Brandi did nothing wrong. She thought she was having sex with someone who was free to have sex with her. If I have sex with someone, and then AFTER they told me they had cheated on someone, I would be upset too. Denise would be the person who did something wrong here, and no one else. Aaron didn't do anything wrong, and Brandi didn't think she was doing anything wrong. Denise knew she was doing something wrong. Again, if you don't believe the story as presented, I have no issue with that. I actually have a huge issue with having to defend Brandi's dumbass, and I haven't argued that her story is true or false. My only argument is that if someone accepts Brandi's story as true, then Denise is the one in the wrong, not Brandi. I don't understand how someone could look at the story AS PRESENTED and conclude Brandi is the one who did something wrong.

An open marriage doesn't have to mean you can just do whatever you want whenever you want with whomever you want. I mean, it COULD mean that, but it doesn't have to. Their "open" marriage could include threesomes together, or Denise having sex with other women, or whatever rules they want to make for themselves. So it is absolutely possible to "cheat" in an open marriage. If one assumes Brandi's story is true (and I can understand why someone wouldn't believe it, but IF you believe it to be true) then Brandi is NOT a cheater. Period. First, she didn't take any vows. so who is she cheating on in the first place? Aaron? How can she cheat on someone she isn't in a relationship with? So, no, she didn't cheat. And IF you believe her story is true, she didn't do anything wrong. *IF* Denise and Aaron believe that Denise having sex with other women is ok, then it's not cheating. They get to make the rules for their marriage, and they get to decide what is cheating, not anyone else. Breaking those rules is what is cheating. So, again, IF you believe the story AS PRESENTED, then Denise is a cheater. AS PRESENTED*, Brandi, Denise, and Aaron had conversations about Denise and Aaron's marriage that included the idea that Denise was allowed to have sex with other women. Based on that, Brandi has sex with Denise, thinking no one is cheating on anyone. Then, Denise says don't tell Aaron, meaning Denise had broken a rule of her marriage and therefore cheated, and now is asking Brandi to cover her cheating. That doesn't put Brandi in the wrong - it puts Denise in the wrong. *Sorry to keep putting AS PRESENTED in all caps over and over, but I know someone is going to say, "well, I don't believe Brandi," which is all fine and good, and I don't blame you a bit, but it has nothing to do with what I'm trying to say.

The list I posted the other day continues to change slightly. As of this morning, Paul and Hayden are no longer on the list, and Kevin Campbell and David Alexander have been added.

Because she wants to be on TV! That much we agree on. But I don't think the fact she put this all on tv means it was never a real emotion. She also put everything about her ex cheating on her all over tv, and I think that was the same situation. Real pain she is willing to barter for TV time. I'm not saying she's not a thirsty fame-whore, but I disagree she doesn't have real human emotions. I think her tendency to lash out actually shows the intensity of her emotions, as well as her inability to control them.

Oh I agree. Like I said, I think she can both have genuine emotions AND ulterior motives for putting it on TV.

I don't know if Teddi has had plastic surgery on her face (admitting to having her boobs done and getting botox doesn't equal proof she's had facial plastic surgery), but if she has, I want to know her surgeon, because she looks great. Her at-home talking heads are stunning. Overall, I like Denise more than Brandi. But I think there is more than a little truth to what Brandi is saying happened. I think the bones of the story are true - they had sex in a hotel loft and then Denise said don't mention this to Aaron or anyone else. And if there is truth to it, I don't blame Brandi for being a little upset. As presented, she was under the impression that it was in bounds for Denise to have sex with other women, and Aaron was fine with that. It's their marriage, their rules, I have no problem with it. But if after Denise and Brandi had sex, then Denise said "don't tell Aaron, he'll kill me" then that's different. I don't think she was implying Denise raped her, lol. But as someone else said, Brandi has always been loud and proud about her sex life, even the casualness of it sometimes, so I do think that finding out that you did something you feel is wrong and shameful, of course that's going to be upsetting. Obviously, the group is out for Denise's blood and that is why this is being aired on national TV, but I do get the feeling that Brandi was genuinely upset at the way things played out, either because of rejection, or feeling tricked, or both. I think she can have both genuine feelings about what happened, and have ulterior motives for airing it on TV.

Here is the latest cast I've seen, and it has been updated since I viewed the same article last night. Paul, Amber, Enzo, Danielle R, and Kaysar have all been added since I looked last night. I'm honestly surprised to see Jackson or Holly not on the list - I assumed they had broken up because one or both of them had been cast. Either just him and he wanted to be free to hook up with other people, or both of them and they fake broke up for alliance building purposes. I wonder if at first Jackson was going to be cast, and then as things unfolded they decided that a winner whose first words were something to the effect of "Mom, I'm not a racist!" wasn't going to be the best look. Right now... I'm happy to see: Amber Nicole A Kaycee Janelle (though nervous too) Danielle R Kaysar Da'Vonne I'm indifferent to see: Cody Tyler Bayleigh Daniele D Nicole F Josh (and this is a jump up for him) Hayden Ian I'm unhappy to see: Christmas (and it sucks to dislike her so much when we are both from Raleigh) Paul Enzo (I have vague bad memories of him, but I'll be clear I don't fully remember) Huh. I put more people on the happy/indifferent lists than I would have expected.

God, I loathe him so much. I said when this shit happened that I didn't believe for a second Jenna actually cheated on him, nor do I believe he ever actually believed it. He claimed she was caught "red handed" but he's a fucking liar. He's an emotionally abusive asshole who was gaslighting the hell out of Jenna. I actually thought he was looking down because he was ashamed of his behavior, but no, he doubled down and said he still thought his abuse of his girlfriend was appropriate. GAH, haaaaaaaate. So much hate. #freejenna Blugh, yes! I wanted to fix it so badly! And as much as I love CT (and I do!), I still laughed when Ashley put him in his place. "How's that working out for you?" "Six figures." Yep. Also, Kayleigh's bed wasn't made very well. If I was going to have my room on camera, that particular view of my home would be perfection, even if two feet away was piled with dirty socks and empty dorito's bags. And I don't like Christopher or Bayleigh, but...I still think she could do better. I can't imagine my HUSBAND sitting next to me (and we ALL know he was only there because she made it to the final, those are HER coattails you're riding on) and he sold me out talking about I wish she would have just finished blah, blah, blah. Look, dumbass, she's the only reason you have a shot at getting asked back. No matter what you think in private, you have her fucking back in public. "I know my wife and there is no way she would have quit unless she was truly hurting. I'm so proud of how hard she pushed, and no amount of money would be worth her getting really hurt." IS THAT SO HARD? Again, she's not a great person, but she is far, far, far better reality show cast member, and she is going to have a fun life dealing with his resentment of that. I actually enjoyed quite a bit of the reunion and lol'ed at a few things, but then ended it on that absolute DOUCHEBAG of a human being and his abuse of Jenna, so I walked away mad and it's showing for sure! Leave on a funny note!

Bummer. I would love to have easy, legal access to older seasons. I don't know why they won't release them.

Does Pluto have any of this on demand? I looked, but couldn't find it, but I also couldn't find a search button so I felt like maybe the real problem is me.

Oh, absolutely I'm sure she is better as a real live human being. But unless I'm forgetting someone (entirely possible!), her dad was THE worst bully this show has ever seen. And she wanted it both ways, not to have any of his shit stick to her, but also laughed when she didn't like the target. I remember not liking her on her second season either, but I think that was more because she wasn't going along with the group I was pulling for, versus being a mean girl. I can't fully remember. Her first season stands out WAY more to me.

Part of the reason I don't like her is how she was a complete hypocrite when it came to her dad. She would whine about how awful it was to have him for a dad and how everyone was blaming her for his behavior by association, but she had NO problem winding him up and enjoying him going after people she didn't like.

I'm so disappointed. I had JUST posted about how much I loved "Honestly, what kind of a kitten befriends a giraffe?!?" and how it was the first and only time a show has made an animal death funny to me. Well, this? Was the opposite of that. Cuppy remains the the exception to the rule. #RIPCuppy

I am 45 years old and have loved cats since I can remember and I have never, ever found a pet/animal death funny, especially a cat. However, I started losing it as soon as you could see Moira was like, um, obviously a giraffe is going to step on a kitten, and then when she hit that final line with such disdain for the kitten I lost it. I'm always impressed when someone can make me laugh at something I wouldn't normally find funny, and this took the cake.

These two sentences...it's all I could think about watching the women's hall brawl. What if Melissa had taken that first hit the way Dee did? I...don't think that would have gone well. I know the contestants sign their damn lives away, but I hope MTV is shaking at what a PR disaster causing a miscarriage would have been, and will do pregnancy tests throughout future seasons (which, this would indicate they don't do them even at the start of a season and that just seems stupid). Bayleigh got pregnant during her season of BB too. I'm not someone who thinks pregnant women need to be bubble wrapped, but I don't think they should be hit with mac trucks in the abdomen either. I'm so glad she had a beautiful, healthy daughter. I was already laughing when Kyle screwed up the car challenge. And I completely lost it when he said his dad was a stunt driver. I don't like Kyle, but I also really like Kyle, and it's confusing. So, it seems like everyone is maturing this season. Is it the bunker? They have all said the conditions were insane, and I wonder if they are trauma bonding. I wonder if this cast will end up closer than most because they "went through something" together. This has been the worst environment they have ever been in. Usually, no matter what, at least you are getting a little cash and an all expenses paid tropical vacation. This season they are having to suffer for it. I would murder someone if I had to go outside in that freezing cold to use a port-a-potty.