statsgirl

I'm willing to be persuaded differently but I find it hard to believe that there was an Oliver/Laurel goodbye scene because her storyline was just so much apart from the main plot. She doesn't know anything about Thea's involvement in Sara's death, she doesn't know what Malcolm gets up to, and she's barely aware of Ra's existence. To say goodbye, Oliver would have to explain to her the whole story of Ra's ultimatum and why he's offering himself in X's place. It just doesn't make writing sense.

Not sure I trust this version of Ted Grant to be an effective vigilante. He's no comic book Wildcat. Basically, the only ones who could give Oliver a break are Diggle, Lyla and Sara. Everyone else is either still learning (Roy) or not there yet (Laurel, Ray, Thea) and none of them could believably come up to speed by the summer break. And then there's that line from the EPs that some characters become their comic book counterparts and other don't. I was listening to David Ramsey tell the audience how important they are because the EPs listen to their social media but it's hard to believe at this point. They're shooting 3x14 now and that should be wrapped up by Christmas. At a guess, they'll be shooting 3x16 and 3x17 when 3x10 - 13 airs and the finale episodes will have been plotted out but they could change the scripts if they need to. More likely, Oliver can leave the show in the combined hands of Roy, Laurel and Ray. The three together should be enough to let him have some Oliver Queen time, and then the EPs can work out over the summer who stays and who moves on, either to another show or another city.

And now we know why there are so few shirtless scenes this season -- because it's hard to keep up a six pack, or even a four pack. (Apparently the male equivalent of a woman weighing 98 pounds.)

I think it was Stephen in terms of Oliver's relationship with Malcolm but I have the vague memory of John Barrowman also saying something about seeing Oliver as part of his dysfunctional family now because there's only Thea left. One of the things they seem to be clear on is that Oliver regains his humanity in the present while moving towards becoming a stone cold killer in the past. So they've got to keep moving in that direction. Good point. Maybe they can sort of deal with Black Canary and Arsenal while Oliver is gone but there's still Thea big arc and whatever they are going to do with Ray. And Slade is coming back, and DR said there is another Suicide Squad episode coming up, and then there's that whole season's Big Bad thing. There really isn't time to have Oliver swing bad and then human again unless they want him to look like a pendulum. I could have argued for Ra's testing Oliver to see if he was a worthy successor before 309, but with the stabbing and the blood running out of Oliver's mouth, and the death prayer and then booting him off the mountain, that didn't look like testing to me, it looked like Ra's getting rid of a troublesome gnat. I've got a comment in this for the Laurel thread which I haven't written up yet but briefly in Adlerian psychology there is a distinction between two types of people who control: those who control for the sake of controlling; and those who control so as not to be controlled themselves. I see Laurel as the former and Oliver as the latter, someone who learned to control and needs to control so as not to be controlled by others (i.e. those five years, followed by Malcolm and Slade in Starling City). So if Oliver believed that these others heroes could really protect Starling City when he wasn't around, I can see him willing to take time off.

That's interesting because both AK and Drew Greenburg (who wrote for Arrow s1 and 2 and is now at AoS) worked on Warehouse 13, which was Eureka's sister show. I don't know if it's the writing or the show-running, but in spite of the EPs saying that they looked at what they did wrong and right in s2, Arrow seems to be making the mistakes of 2B. AK working on the Flash and Berlanti with Supergirl and Mysteries of Laura probably have something to do with it. Adam West's Batman had rotating love interests, although maybe that was a sign of 60s TV.

I think the three heroes need to be leaders who can make the decisions necessary so that Oliver can hand over some of the responsibility for protecting the city. right now I don't see either Roy or Thea in that role. Back in The Calm, when Count Vertigo was going to blow up the arena, it was Felicity telling him what to do rather than Roy knowing it, or in Guilty Oliver was telling him to watch the roof when he was thinking he'd take one of the sides. But mostly I think of it in terms of CH's acting rather than Arsenal's abilities but we'll see what he can do in 10 - 12. That pretty much means we have no choice but to include Laurel in there because I doubt Brandon Routh is going to stick around for another season of being supporting to Stephen Amell and Thea won't be up to it yet, if she ever does become Speedy. It feels like it's another example of forcing us to accept KC as the Black Canary, just as killing Sara dead was, we accept her because there is no alternative. One of this show's strengths has been to take what is good, go with it, and leave the rest, but it really feels like not matter how bad it may be, they are determined to go with Laurel as Black Canary. Everything else is optional. It still leaves the show with the problem of bringing people back for the new season. For the summer between seasons 2 and 3, there was the pull of seeing Happy Oliver and how he handles his new acceptance of not-killing and did he mean the ILU or didn't he? The mid-season cliff hanger means we tune in to see if Oliver survived or not. But if they end season 3 with Oliver hanging up his bow and handing the city over to Arsenal, Black Canary and ?, what's the draw to make us tune in for season 4?

I meant Roy/Arsenal as a lead, in his big 3 episode arc. He works really well this season as a sidekick but if Oliver is going to hand over part of protecting the city to him, he's got to be believable as a leading player, and I don't think CH is there right now..

I like Orion's idea that it could be Diggle, Roy and Felicity, because it gives the writers a way out if one or all of LaurelCanary, Arsenal and ATOM are fails..

Yep, you're right. The anecdote is about Colton, Emily and David messing about. I feel better now.

One of the problems with this show is that they say something, and do something else. Diggle and Felicity are far more true heroes than Roy, Ray or Laurel at this point. And it's interesting that when reviewers talk about the show, they say that Diggle and Felicity are heroes even though they don't wear a mask. But the EPs also seem obsessed with the names and the costumes and the comic book connections. I hope you're right and that Diggle is included. But if he were, wouldn't that have factored in to Oliver's decisions by now. Realistically there is no way Laurel, Ray or Thea, or even Roy can match much less exceed Diggle as someone who can protect the city but I'm really expecting Diggle not to be included in those three heroes, especially since he's got Sara to take care of now. . I think these episodes are going to be a litmus test on whether they can write these characters as decent alternatives to Oliver/Arrow, and whether the actors themselves can carry it through. So far, the writing has completely messed up any potential to make Laurel a good Black Canary and lampshading it by saying that she gets beaten up when she first goes out in the field isn't making it any better. They've figured out what to do with Colton Haynes this season by limiting his dialogue and giving him snark but he's way far from being able to even partially carry the show. Ironically, the best options they have right now in terms of superheroes are Ray and his ATOM suit and Thea, who isn't even on track to become Speedy, but neither is anywhere near as compelling as Stephen Amell and the original Team Arrow. Even without a costume, Diggle and Felicity are far more watchable in terms of vigilante-ism than any of Laurel, Roy, or Ray. I haven't a clue how they are going to pull this one off and keep the audience.

Even Huntress was just a marginal fighter. Oliver had to give her a crossbow because she couldn't handle a longbow. Sara, Shado, Nyssa and Katana have been the only real female fighters on the show and sadly two, possibly three of them are dead. I don't think DR knows yet of what actually is going to be in the show. They've told him Thea gets a big story but he's only got the script for 3x14, 3x15 at most. Often the EPs will say it's a big story but when it appears on screen, it's not really that much in terms of screen-time. And sounds very kinky. While it makes logical sense, the problem is that it leaves the season finale as Oliver hanging up his bow, leaving the others to fight for Staling City and I don't know about anyone else but a show based on Laurel Canary, Arsenal and the Atom holds zero interest for me. I doubt I would be back in the fall. I can't listen to the tape now but did he say 'hero' or 'superhero'? I seem to remember it was the latter and while a hero doesn't have to have a costume, I think a superhero on this show does. The impression I got is that 3x10 will be about the Team trying to cope without Oliver, which would mean a substantial amount of Felicity and Diggle too because MG has been tweeting spoilers of 'epic' Felicity, Felicity/Diggle scenes and Felicity/Malcolm. We have no Felicity or Diggle spoilers for 3x11 and beyond, so it sounds like those will be Laurel/Roy/Ray heavy. Sin is in 3x12, probably mostly with Laurel and Roy, Count Vertigo in 3x13, and Slade and Tommy in 3x14.

David Ramsey told a story of Stephen's first day back shooting in the Arrow cave, and David, Katie, Emily and Colton are all comfortable and talking with each other, and Stephen tries to get in on the conversation and they're "oh, you're back" and continue talking to each other kind of ignoring him cuz he doesn't fit in so much any more. That gave me the impression that they all get along with Katie Cassidy pretty well (and that we're stuck with Laurel in the Arrow cave from now on but that's just be my feeling from how he told the story). The other impression I got out of DR's interview (I haven't had a chance to hear the whole thing yet) is that Olicity has now become endgame because when he talked about Oliver in the hospital seeing what Diggle had, Lyla and the baby, he was all "I want that, and I want that, and I want that" and that's what's Oliver's going to get down the line, "hopefully with Felicity". If they were still talking on set about making Lauriver endgame, he would have said something like "hopefully he'll get that, whoever it's with."

There may be three superheros in Starling City besides Oliver but it doesn't mean they will all be on Team Arrow. Nor do they have to stay in Starling City. Ray can help out fighting the Big Bad of the season, and then move on to either The Flash or his own show, with Oliver getting PT/QC back at the end of the season. The same can be said for Ted Grant, he and Laurel can be off fighting villains by themselves in Starling City only working with Team Arrow occasionally, or if LaurelCanary fails, they could move to Coast City, I hear there are no superheros there to fight crime. Good point about people turning against Sara after the kiss. I think after Oliver's I love you and his dying thought of Felicity, Ray's popularity wouldn't survive getting together with Felicity, and I'm sure hers would take a huge hit too. When Oliver got together with Sara, there was no spoken Olicity and Sara was an old lover. This situation is very different. It's an interesting idea that they're waiting to see how 10 - 13 are received. If they're not well received, it still gives the writers lots of time to make changes for the end of the season.

Or "My name is Ray Palmer. Seven months ago, my fiance was killed in an attack and I was helpless to save her. Since then, I have vowed to become stronger and more technically enabled so that I can save my city. To do that, I must to be something else....." I think the team would work best in three tiers: Oliver, Diggle and Felicity, and then Arsenal and Speedy. It's a five member team with two women but Diggle and Felicity are right behind Oliver. I think the problem with how they wrote Sara in 2B is that she was too powerful a character, she was up there at Oliver's level and replaced Diggle as the person he went out in the field with. Speedy, like Arsenal, is just learning. If they bring Laurel in, her fans will be demanding that the Black Canary be equal with the Arrow since that's the way it is in the comics, and I just can't see that working without changing the show.

If Sin sees Laurel in the suit and says "that's not the Black Canary", I will be saying 'yeah, tell it sister.' Team Arrow worked, very well indeed. When they added Sara, even though she was a good character and a great fighter, it became problematic because they couldn't write for four team members and Diggle and Felicity got the shaft, not to mention Roy whose growth into Arsenal happened off-screen. They've integrated Roy better this year, but at the cost of Diggle. And now there's going to be five on the team, including one who is barely competent? Problems: Oliver and Ray are both alpha-males and too alike. Oliver works well with Diggle because Diggle is like a wiser older brother and Diggle is willing to let Oliver take the lead. I can't see Ray able to take order s from Oliver, or Oliver letting Ray take the lead. There's a reason Batman and Superman aren't joined at the hip. Roy works best as muscle. Let him have his episodes while Oliver is gone and then backburner him again. I can only take Laurel in small doses. The more I see of her, the more I dislike her. To make her fit into Team Arrow, she would need a personality transplant. The only way I can see this working is if the Black Canary and the Atom work separately from Team Arrow and only cross paths occasionally. Or if they both leave the show at the end of season 3. I'd prefer Thea to be Speedy to Laurel's Black Canary, but I can't see how she would fit into the Arrow lair either. But at least I know she probably wouldn't be taking up the storytime Laurel will. Wow, way to kill my anticipation of 3B. And 4A

Personally I hope the third "superhero" along with Roy and Ray is Malcolm. Or Nyssa. Or even Thea. Because I really don't think I can take it if InstaCanary is out saving the city

The money they have spent on Katie Cassidy is a sunk cost. They signed the contract three years ago and it's a done deal. Will the show ever be able to get their money's worth out of Laurel? I doubt it. She is cheered by a small segment of the fandom, tolerated by most and loathed by a few. They tried to put her in the show's leading lady role but that failed within the first part of season one. If they keep trying, especially with plot contrivances and taking time away from other characters, all they will succeed in doing is hurting their own show. It was bed enough that they killed off Tommy and Moira. It seems like most of the favorable reviews and comments are for Oliver/SA, Felicity/EBR, Diggle/DR and Malcolm/JB Quentin doesn't get mentioned much because right now it's a pretty small role, and the rest of the cast either doesn't get talked about a lot or criticized. The most critical comments, both in terms of the writing and the acting, have been about Laurel. One of the things this show has done very well is to shift the focus from their original idea when something better happens (e.g. from Oliver and his love life to Team Arrow). If they want to put Laurel back front and center again, they don't deserve that status of show-runners.

According to AK, 310, 311 and 312 are the Laurel trilogy. 313 is "Canaries" so it will probably be about Sara and Laurel. If they are going to make any episode Laurel-heavy, 311 makes the most sense. People will tune in for 310 but if there's too much Laurel, they won't be back for 311, whereas they will for 312 because Oliver will be back in that one. There going to have to do some serious writing in circles to justify her being on the Team in 3.10. The last she said of it was telling Oliver she's not on his team. If she had Sara's skill level, I could see her joining to help protect the city with Oliver being gone but right now, shes more of a liability than anything else. For her to go to the lair and say "I've come to help" is incredible arrogance. Maybe she comes up against Brick and goes to Diggle and the Team to help her deal with him. Thanks, MG, that tweet about not wanting 'to be a woman you love' plus his reply to 311 being "Canary" has really killed my enthusiasm for January's episodes.

And don't forget how much these writers love their comic book parallels! As much as I don't want it to be, it looks like it's the Lazarus Pit for Oliver. (It makes sense that the LoA would put their duelling grounds near a Lazarus Pit.)

I've been reading the replies and I think the most likely show is The Mindy Project, especially given that she's pregnant in real life. Also possible but less likely are Chicago Fire (Dawson and Casey are very shaky but already engaged) and OUaT with Regina and Robin, although Marian still alive is a hindrance. I loved the idea of Penny and Sheldonon Big Bang Theory but the show is way over six seasons.

Thea must really have blinkers on if she hasn't wondered how Felicity, Oliver's former EA, and Roy know each other well enough to hang out at Verdant together with friends. I haven't heard lately that Katrina Law is on set so while it makes sense for Nyssa to tell them, it's more likely Malcolm, especially if he was supposed to be on the mountain witnessing the duel. I also wonder about the timing -- assuming that the show keeps to its usual hiatus time jumps, on Jan 21 will we see someone tell Team Arrow that Oliver is dead after he's been missing for 7 weeks, or will we see them already dealing with the knowledge of his death? And who is going to tell Thea? If Felicity does get vengeful, will it be towards Malcolm (it was spoiled they have scenes together -- that could be epic), or will there be some for Thea too, so blind and who Oliver died to save. I like that image of her talking to his costume "I don't want to be a woman you love.. and then die for. I want you here with me so that I can love you back." No gravestone please -- been there, done that. Hell yes!

The best guess for the pregnancy that I read was Penny on The Big Bang Theory. The show is not going anywhere since they just signed new contracts,l and it's about scientists which would account for the DNA, although I think Bernadette is the only one who works with it. But it's been on for 8 seasons so it doesn't qualify. An alternate is Casey/Dawson from Chicago Fire. Should we move this to The Quiver since it's probably not about Arrow?

MTV's Best TV Characters of 2014 #26 Felicity Smoak Their #10 is Barry Allen. Buddy TV's Best Feminist Characters of 2014 (includes Stephen Colbert for gamergate)

Can anyone explain to me what's going to go on? From the spoilers, we have it's a 4 episode Laurel/BC cycle.... no, it's three episodes where Roy will "take center stage" .... and there will be lots of Malcolm, including on top of a mountain and scenes with Roy. Slade Wilson will be in 3x14 and Tommy will be in 3x14 "ish" Sara will be in 3x13 but not in flashbacks. Someone will doubt that Oliver is dead. In terms of Team Arrow, Felicity will not be looking for Oliver "because she knows where he is and where he isn't", her reaction to the news will be "epic", there will be lots of Diggle/Felicity scenes coming up, Felicity will blame someone for Oliver's death. There will be Felicity/Thea scenes. And MG's favorite moment from an upcoming episode will be "I don't want to be a woman you love". Can anyone make sense of this? Especially the last, unless it's someone saying it to Malcolm. (Oh, how I miss Moira!)

So Felicity thinks Oliver is dead, a four part Canary arc, lots of Roy fighting and Ray builds his suit. I just can't wait. (Except not. How much does Guggenheim want to keep me from watching this show?)