Pop Tart

I ended up liking this more then I thought I would. I was leery after Vinyl, but the fact that there are a couple of strong female leads helped a lot. I think I had pretty low expectations of what roles there would be for women, given that this is about stand-up comics in the 70s, but they managed to create several women characters who seem to be complex beings with their own agency. It doesn't hurt that they've cast Ari Graynor and Melissa Leo for those parts. Though this pilot was a bit uneven, I found myself pretty engaged, pretty quickly. I know I sound like I'm damning with faint praise, but really I thought I'd watch a few minutes of this and know that it wasn't for me. So to have watched the whole thing and end with a feeling of expectation for the next episode is pretty astonishing.

That was what really turned it for me regarding Bethenny. I don't generally like her, but last night was thinking she was having some genuine moments. And the scene where she and Lu were alone and Lu was trying to comfort her was one of them. But the very next scene is her with Carole ridiculing Lu for what was some really pretty basic advice. That's where I think Lu was being genuine. When she says she looks forward and not back and was suggesting Bethenny be happy that she got Bryn out of the mess, that's not wrong advice. Sure Bethenny wasn't in a good place and Lu apologized when she realized that, but there's nothing inherently wrong with what Lu said. A lot of people feel that way. And heck it's healthy to do so. For all they get on Lu for being delusional, she seems like a very well-adjusted, self-aware person to me. Bethenny is none of those things. The other way that Bethenny loses me is that she uses catastrophic language for everything regarding her own experience. She's being tortured, she's in a dungeon and will never get out, she's in hell... I can't even remember all of it, but when you get that dramatic and over-the-top in your language, I'm going to start side-eyeing what you're saying in a major way. And she does this with anything and everything to do with herself. All while barely acknowledging that others may have a point of view or opinion. Someone upthread mentioned how the editing seemed off last night, I agree. I feel like we saw Sonja and Ramona get ready to go downstairs 3 different times, but this was all the same day wasn't it? I did laugh when they came down the second (3rd?) time, dressed like twins and entered the room with a kind of "ta-da" announcement of their presence and the other ladies were deep in discussion (I think Carole was letting them know how bad it was for Bethenny) and no one acknowledged S&R's entrance, so Ramona made another "ta-da" type noise and nothing. Made me laugh. And Dorinda's house? There's a lot going on there decor-wise, but she certainly seems fond of velvet. Blue velvet couches in one room, purple velvet couches in another and Sonja and Ramona's headboard was also blue velvet.

For me it's not so much one cast vs another as it is middle years vs first and last. With sitcoms often the first year is a settling in period for the characters. There are good laughs, but also some clunky moments while they figure out the rhythms and beats of the characters and writing. Then they settle into really good stuff for the next few years, as happened here, and then often wind up in the last year or two suddenly getting super serious about things which I definitely thought happened with MASH which got a little preachy towards the end. Still good stuff, but really the best was from about year 2.5 - 10.5. Not to say there weren't really great episodes in years 1 and and 11, just that it didn't always work for me then. Other sitcoms follow the pattern as well, clunky and broader comedy at the beginning and then trying to be too dramatic by series end. My favorite MASH moments, oh so many. But I always love the Sidney Freedman episodes. Second time when he appears, he's come to attend a conference (which is really a marathon poker game). Colonel Flagg is in this episode too and even sits in on the poker game for a while. All sorts of madness is happening throughout the camp as the game goes on and it's all just so well-timed and well written. Adams Ribs, one of my all time favs. And the later one when Margaret's dad is visiting and the guys have gotten hold of a side of beef - they've "purloined some sirloin" according to Charles. Oh and one other continuity error for the series - in early episodes Hawkeye has a sister, but later he's an only child.

Thanks KungFuBunny for the transcript. When I first heard it I thought Barbara was saying that Luann had said that she'd rather divorce than call it off, but that's not what was said. Carole asks Barbara if Lu is excited about the wedding and Barbara replies "Honestly? I think she has something to prove." Carole asks prove what and Barbara then says the line "She'd rather go through with it and divorce than call it off". Reading the exchange makes it clear that this is Barbara's interpretation of how Lu is feeling. Maybe based on convos with her, maybe just assuming she knows, can't tell. But they aren't Lu's words.

Your interpretation could be right. But for all their dissing on Tom and what a cheater he is, I still think Sonja and Ramona would have said yes to a proposal faster even then Lu did. Still I think there must be something there for Tom other then a woman who won't complain if he cheats. He's been happily (by all accounts) dating his way through the UES for years. So why marry? Lu doesn't have tons more money then he does, she's not pregnant, she's not the first woman who would look the other way, so what's different? No idea.

I think Bethenny realized how badly she came off last season and is doing her darnedest to not get caught doing the same this year. That's why Ramona is having such a hard time getting things started with her. Ramona is trying to engage the Bethenny of last season (the one who screeched at Lu and called her a whore) because she knows how much sympathy (and liking) Lu got from those interactions. But Bethenny is apparently trying to get another reality show about flipping real estate (?) going so she is being extra careful in all her interactions. That's why she's walking away from them. Not because she can't take the criticisms (though she is incredibly thin-skinned), but because she doesn't want to flip out again. I will give her credit for what seemed a genuine moment when she met Tom. She felt awkward but did address the situation straight on. And I will also give her credit for not being stuck where all the other women are, determined to drag Tom and Lu down to their own levels of misery. She's moved on - whether for branding reasons or because she genuinely thinks it's none of her business (I think a combo of both) - and that's a good thing. I do think Carole hit it on the head last night when she commented that even if Lu believed all the stuff they're saying about Tom she would never admit it to them. Or words to that effect. And I agree. Why would she in a million years tell any of these women anything? They're not her friends and they've been determined to torpedo things for her from the start. If I were her I'd probably be digging in on how happy I was too. I don't for a moment believe that Lu doesn't know what she's getting into. She does. And she seems happy enough with her choice. And what I find interesting, for all the talk about all the women Tom has dated, Lu is the only one he's married. I don't know what that means. But clearly she's different for him then the others. Doesn't mean he won't cheat, but does mean they have some kind of connection he hasn't had with any other woman. Otherwise why marry? It's not like Lu could have tricked him into it by claiming to be pregnant.

Yes. It's the eyes and the smile. They can both do the big smile, bug-eyed look very well.

I've been trying to pin down just what Sonja's problem is with Tinsley given that she shared space pretty amicably with Luann. She had Luann living with her last year and was totally fine with her, so why is she being so passive-aggressive, and just downright aggressive, with Tinsley? I think it's that she is finding Tinsley a threat. With Luann she could feel that they were in the same boat. 50-something women trying to find that someone to spend the rest of their lives with - both having the same basic social circle and known to each and all for years. That Luann managed to get engaged is not something that Sonja expected (thus why Luann wasn't a threat). Sonja's nastiness to Lu last season all started after her serious relationship/engagement to Tom came to light. Up until then, Sonja could tell herself that her situation wasn't too bad, because Lu was in the same boat. Only when that changed did the aggression emerge. With Tinsley, I think she thought here would be this person who would be dependent on her and was as screwed up as she was. Instead she's got a 20-year-younger version of herself in the house, one who is going out with her own friends and even scarier to Sonja, making friends in Sonja's circle. And by friends I think we can assume she's most worried about the men. Tinsley is everything Sonja has to offer, just a couple decades younger. So she's trying to proactively bring her down and undermine her confidence. I liked Lu's dress. Wasn't sure at first, but as she pirouetted I liked all the angles. Other then that? Ramona? I agree about how she's not used to being the one iced out, so it's really throwing her - that and the fact that she has absolutely no story of her own is going to be a problem for her this year. I think Bethenny is very, very aware of how much damage she did to her own personal brand last year with her viciousness to Lu, so she seems to really be walking on eggshells this season. Noticed in the upcoming scenes that she's apologizing to Tom about drama she may have caused for him. So I think she's trying not to really lose it on anyone. That plus she really loathes that she's contractually obligated to attend these events. She uses any and every excuse to duck out early or not attend at all. And Carole? She was fine last night. But I think it's interesting that for all the talk about how she's living with Adam and struggling with sharing her space with him, we haven't actually seen any scenes of them in that space together? Or I haven't. I missed most of the first ep of the season, so perhaps there? Given her general tenor with how she's talking living with him and how he's been mostly invisible, I'm guessing that relationship is not long for this world.

I agree with this - hate the idea of Victoria chasing after Billy (beyond gross) - but I will admit to finding some pleasure in how much Phyllis's nose is getting out of joint because of Vic. It's only been what, a day? in show time, and yet Phyllis is already starting to lurk around corners in fear that Victoria is going to take away her man (shuddddder and swallowing of vomit). So anything that makes Phyllis unhappy has to make me somewhat cheer it on. I kind of wish they'd revisit Victoria and Jack. It could start with them consoling each other over the jerks in their life and go from there. I know once upon a time he was a stepfather to her, but she's now in her 40s and he his 60s (or late 50s by show reckoning), so it's not out of the realm in terms of age difference, especially on a soap where all the older adults (meaning not the 20-somethings) occupy this kind of ageless state.

Ha! Caught me. You know I started to type father and then 'corrected' myself because I was suddenly sure he was too old and had to be grandfather. I know the whole story - still hate, hate the fact that they disappeared Brad as her dad - and still my brain could only think grandpa.

Not a fan of Abby (don't hate her, but find her mostly irritating) and the storyline of her meteoric rise to power at Newman has been rushed and dumb, but I have to say 'bravo' to her for verbalizing this. This scenario where the male journalist without an ounce of business experience is going to be set to watch her on Victor's behalf is just gross. Certainly it proves what a misogynist Victor is, but it doesn't do Scott any favors either with him going along with it and insisting that he works "with" Abby not for her. Yes Abby was the Naked Heiress (so stupid), but Scott has no idea what she's been doing since then and the condescending dialogue they've written for him in his interactions with her just make him seem as much of an ass as Victor. I want Scott with Sharon, but if they're putting him in a chem test with Abby, how about his being a bit humble about his lack of business experience? How about he says, 'hey, your grandfather wants me to work with you and I owe him for the $10 million ransom, so I'm going along with it, but I know I don't know anything about this business, so...' Instead he's all like 'I was in dangerous places in the world and you're just a blonde bimbo so I'm entitled to consider myself your equal as a business co-worker'. This has Mal Young's fingerprints all over it. It's sexist and meant to be rom-com snarky, hate you, now I love you stuff, but it's just so sexist and gross. I would guess that Sally wrote the scenes that Scott has had with Sharon and this stuff with Abby? Mal Young all the way.

I didn't quite get how the plan could have been put it play without his revealing to the new US Attorney guy (formerly investigating Chuck for unethical, possibly illegal deeds) that he'd put a whole bunch of money into the IceJuice thing and that's why Axe was going to tank it? Chuck okayed his dad raiding his blind trust for the money to fund the investment, and though I don't know much about blind trusts, I got the sense that this was at the least unethical and possibly illegal, because Chuck's dad made a point of saying once the IPO happened they'd put the money right back in the trust. So how does Chuck get the investigator guy on board with going after Axe without telling him that Axe is likely to tank the IJ offering and if he tells him that wouldn't the investigator ask how he knows that's likely to happen? I did love the double con, and Chuck's reaction at the end was perfect, crying and laughing at the same time because, yes he's now got Axe on illegal doings, but he's also lost his entire trust and it's probably cost him Wendy as well.

This is why I think Dorinda was in more control then she appeared. She was being very careful to not give voice to the things that Sonja was reported to have said. And though I thought she definitely lost the high road because of how very low she was going, I did think she was being smart to not actually name the things being said. If she says them, then they just get that much closer to being believed. Dorinda couldn't be specific as to which FB post she was talking about because of this.

I'm not sure it's this - it's more that right now the US attorneys are just fishing. They don't know of any one thing that Axe is doing illegally at the moment, they suspect because they're a hedge fund that they must be doing something illegal, but they don't have anything actionable at the moment. So if you're Taylor or Mafee for that matter and the US Attorney comes to you and makes vague threats against Axe and Axe capital are you going to immediately spill everything and give up your hundreds of thousands of dollars in salary and bonuses? Or wait for the actual shit to be hitting the fan?

I have only watched this very occasionally and really only last season and this one, so my question for the experts: Is Cameran with anyone? Dating? Married? Living together? Divorced? She's so interested in getting Shep and Chelsea to hook up, because Shep can't be truly happy until he commits or something, but is she with anyone in a committed relationship? Just wondering. And that aside I don't know what a single one of these women sees in any of these men. They are all pretty gross, aging frat boys who think they're all that. They actually make me shudder a little, just no. I don't care who or what these women have done, none of them deserves to be with any of these guys. Since I'm a recent viewer and that only infrequently, I don't hate Landon, and in fact thought she had a genuine moment last night when she told Craig that the way Thomas treated Kensie was the way her parents were all the time. It didn't seem like she said it to elicit pity, but rather was trying to joke about it and be self-mocking, but I could see there was some real hurt there underneath. Or that's how I read it.

I think you're right about Taylor's convo with Wendy. It was more like they thought they should be upset at what had happened in Sandicot and weren't, so was that wrong. Early on when Taylor told Axe that working at the firm made them physically uncomfortable I got the sense it had more to do with the overly-energetic people, hard-charging environment, then it did doing what the firm does. Taylor has several times suggested that what they feel is actually different then what they think they should feel - in addition to the Wendy discussion, there was the discussion about being on the chess team when they were in college. Taylor at first suggests the reason they left the team was one thing, but eventually admits they were pushed out for being too good and how angry that made them feel. All of this is to say that I don't think Taylor is necessarily a liberal/progressive, rather is someone who has a worldview that makes sense to them guided by really very pragmatic and objective considerations. Taylor does form personal connections, like wanting to cheer up their fellow analyst because they weren't doing well (bought him the UFC poster) and certainly seems to be developing a respect for Axe, but in broader terms I don't think they're easily labeled. Taylor was the one who said they should pull the plug on Sandicot without reference to how that made anyone feel (I think this was after the discussion with Wendy). And I think Taylor's meeting with the US attorney guy (can't remember his name) was merely a fact-finding mission. If Taylor thought they had enough to charge Axe, the conclusion of that meeting would have been far different. But because Brian (ah I just remembered his name) didn't have a shred of evidence and instead was making all kinds of assumptions about who Taylor was based solely on their resume, Taylor almost laughed in his face. We did get evidence in this episode that Axe knew Wendy before he knew Lara. When Wendy is apologizing to him for telling Lara the truth, she references when Axe met Lara and how she (Wendy) at first was skeptical of their relationship and Axe's quick decision that Lara was the one. The reason Lara's brother has an issue with Axe is because he's a cop and they found out last season that Axe had somehow done a deal at the expense of first responders who died on 9/11 or one that exploited their memory. I can't remember the details, but he had been looked up to by police and fire because of his big donations to them, but it came out that he had also totally exploited the events of 9/11 to make millions of dollars. So Lara's family (which includes a fair number of first responders) really soured on him.

Bethenny ran out because she uses every chance and excuse to get out of the events she's obligated to attend. When she was the one attacking Lu last year she stormed off and now uses the comments at dinner as her excuse to run out. And really Ramona did her a huge favor because she can use her upset to get out of the next day's event, which she did. Bethenny came back to the show for money or publicity, but she is loathing every minute she has to spend at the events (for which she's probably contractually obliged to attend - at least a percentage of them). Sure Ramona was being deliberately provoking for whatever Ramona retasons she had, but Bethenny loves a chance to duck out of any and all events as early as possible. Oh and I loved how Carole still managed to dredge up her beef with Luann by mentioning being called a pedophile in her little kitchen discussion with Bethenny about why Sonja was still upset about the Berkshires. So you're criticizing Sonja for holding on to something from last season by bringing up something that upset you two seasons ago.

Agree with all of this. I thought the fact that Shosh had deliberately excluded Hannah while inviting everyone else, including Elijah (you can't tell me that Elijah wouldn't have told Hannah about the engagement at the least), was unnecessarily harsh. I'm not saying she doesn't have a reason to want to let her friendship with Hannah fade away - but getting in touch goes both ways. Her beef that Hannah hadn't called to tell her about the pregnancy? True. But clearly Shosh had not called Hannah in all that time either. I wouldn't have an issue with the lack of invite to Hannah if she hadn't included everyone else, even Ray (her ex), Marnie (the woman who dated her ex) and Elijah (who lives with Hannah). She clearly was going to be dropping all of the women as friends, not just Hannah, so the exclusion of Hannah was just mean. And I also agree that I don't necessarily think Shosh is heading for a happy ever after with her true love Byron. Things can happen fast and work, but her emphasis on making sure everyone knew they were so in love and happy just seemed forced. That said, I could totally see it happening in this way. The whole party scene was very well done and captured that feeling of affection and loss that comes with the ending of friendships. I liked that Jessa and Hannah came to a rapprochement. And I loved the evidence that even Jessa was changing (loved her line about having been waiting outside of Shosh's house since 4).

The thing that gets me is that Sheldon is always bragging about being the smartest of them all (the gang) and always wants to dominate in all work situations, but really hasn't he proven time and again that he's definitely not the smartest? There have been many instances in the show where he thinks he has something, but really has gotten it wrong and the work that has been successful has all been based on someone else's ideas. His not successful efforts: the element he thought he'd discovered, but didn't because he had used the wrong factor for one of the numbers; his mono-polar (?) experiment when they went to the south (north?) pole; his work with Kripke where he realizes that Kripke is leaps and bounds ahead of him; and his having to give up his field of study because he was stuck in a dead end. His successful efforts: the article/theory he and Leonard co-wrote where they were asked to present and got into the fight in front of everyone (early in the series), not clear whose idea it was, but think it was Leonard's; the theory Leonard came up with while having dinner with Penny that Sheldon then helped him with the math and wrote the article (for which he ended up getting sole credit!); I'm thinking the current project he's working on with Leonard and Howard for the military was Howard's idea, so that; and now his collaboration with Amy on an idea that she originated. This isn't all of the examples in either category, I've probably missed some, but I think it's pretty clear that Sheldon - at the least - is not the guy who's going to come up with the ideas/theories, Leonard and the others are. Is he brilliant at helping them with the math and science? Probably. But pretty much anything he's worked at on his own has not succeeded. What I'm curious about is whether the writers know this or not. I'm inclined to think not. I think Chuck and company still think Sheldon is the smartest so it's right that he should get his way, but he's really not as far as what we've been shown. He has an eidetic memory and is very smart when it comes to math and science, but as an original thinker of potentially universe changing ideas, not so much.

(small voice) me too. I can see they are chem testing Scott with several of the women on the show and I'm actually glad of that. With the last few writers they'd bring on a character and already be set on who they'd be paired with come hell or high water or crashingly bad non-chemistry. I like Scott with Sharon and would love to see a slow-build relationship with them, especially because I want her to stay far, far from Nick. But I'm okay with their testing him with other actresses as well. I truly do not want Phyllis to be the one they go with, please, please, no. Other then her...okay.

I think Axe has ready capital to the tune of about 2-3 billion, so 5 million is not a big deal. In the last episode when he was going to do the currency deal and he called on all his former enemies he told them they'd need 5 billion and that he only had about 2 or 3 billion available as ready cash himself - which is why he needed them to buy in. If the deal succeeded, and I think it did because I think he did end his quarter in the black, then he should have had his 2-3 billion back plus whatever profit they reaped. Now his total worth? No idea. That would include his business and all properties, etc. So 50 billion? 100 billion? In regards to Rhodes vs. Bobby as to who's the villain? I think the show is more about how far someone will go to accomplish their goals. Just what rules will they break, boundaries will they cross to achieve their ends. Clearly Bobby more visibly crosses boundaries and breaks rules, but I think Rhodes does all of that too. Someone mentioned how he, in the first episode, decided he was going to go after Bobby until he found something prosecutable. That's not how it's supposed to work if you're the prosecutor. Added factor - though it's been a while - I'm pretty sure he decided to go after Bobby because even then there was tension about the fact that Wendy worked for him. So he decided to pursue someone who hadn't yet, that he had any evidence of, broken any laws, and he did so largely because he didn't like that his wife was consorting with this hedge fund guy. I consider Rhodes and Bobby to both be extremely grey characters, but not ones without their own ethical outlooks. Rhodes ethics (for the most part) drive him to pursue these wall street moguls by any means necessary and Bobby's ethics drive him to make as much money as possible, but also to protect the people he considers to be his.

Thanks for the correction on Wags, dwmarch, I knew Wax didn't seem right because then we'd have Wax and Axe, but I was totally hearing it. And now that you've said it, I agree the shrink might have set it up. He made such a point of naming Wags when the fight was going to get physical, so that had jumped out at me, but I hadn't gotten as far as him maybe setting up the whole thing. I think he's going to be a real problem down the road in some way - perhaps to sow dissension between Wags and Axe, not sure. We did see the Rhodes kids in season one. Pretty sure it was a son and daughter (with the daughter as the older). There was the time Rhodes was in the park with his son getting an ice cream cone and some guy he'd prosecuted came up to them to yell at Rhodes. And I'm pretty sure we had at a couple scenes of the kids at home, if only briefly.

Only two episodes in and I'm really loving this season so far. The interactions between all the characters are so sharp and every moment seems to be working to further story and character development and I like that I have to be listening carefully because it all moves through so quickly. I've actually watched both episodes multiple times because I keep catching new details and nuance. In this week's episode I have to say I loved the Axe/Taylor interactions the best, just because I'm finding Taylor to be such an intriguing character. Taylor seems to be a complete straight arrow, so while they may be a help to Axe now, will it come back to bite him later if he does something that Taylor notices is illegal/unethical? Not sure how that will go. Seems to be mutual respect between them now, but how will it play out? And then there's the new woman watchdog person (sorry don't remember her name) and the way that Wax may be feeling threatened by her. His interactions with the psychologist guy (a creepy jerk) were great and I loved when he went off on the idiots at the sushi restaurant and how they were all ready to try and bully him until they realized who he was. Rhodes is much more interesting this season having to struggle in his job and life. Last season he was just too smug all the time. Here he's having to figure out how to survive and I find that a lot more compelling. And his deputy's struggle to figure out what he's doing with his career, and how being a prosecutor isn't quite the white hat role that he envisioned is being well handled as well. I'm even somewhat interested in whatever business Axe's wife (blanking on her name) is going to come up with. Not because I think it will be interesting in and of itself, but because of how it might play into all the other stuff that's going on.

You're right - but this is combined with the fact that anytime a female enters the comic book store the characters act as though a unicorn has walked in. With pretty much everything they do in terms of their geek obsessions on the show, it's made clear that "girls" don't participate. That it's a miracle when one does want to participate. So I take it all as a theme from the writers.

I'm so tired of the "girls just won't like comic con" bits. Certainly Penny won't geek out to the extent that Leonard and the guys would, but if nothing else it's a huge spectacle and it's in San Diego. Granted they live in Pasadena so not the same draw as it was for me coming from Wisconsin, but still, San Diego! I'm sure Penny could find plenty to occupy herself if she wasn't going to all the panels that the guys wanted to go to. And the panels, they're not just nerdy comic book ones, there are tv show panels and movie panels, lots and lots of big stars, etc. Again, not totally Penny's scene, but the whole girls won't like it is just old and frankly sexist. So that was irritating on top of their just not talking to each other. Otherwise pretty meh.