MDKNIGHT

I liked that since in the alt timeline she'd been fighting the bad guys for 10 years she seemed older. I think the character in her regular timeline is supposed to be grad student age so I don't have a real problem with her dressing young. I also like to think they chose to write Cassandra as Prince Charming becuase she secretly likes women as emplied by the way she told Eve she never thought of her as a mother. It is probably just tongue in cheek but hey you never know.

My mind wandered a little during City of Light. Am I correct in thinking the love interest girl died for nothing? Like it didn't even really help anybody for her to die? I find that sadder than if she'd nobally sacrificed herself to save the gang or her townfolk. Surprised they went there with a relatively frothy show. Really enjoyed part 2. Loved that the stuff they'd collected in previous eps would be the solution. Didn't see that coming. Wish we could have spent a little more time in each alternate timeline because I found that really fun. I initially thought i was the only one reading into Cassandra's tone when saying she never thought of Eve a a mother. I blame years of Xena fandom but apparently am not alone. Hope somebody is writing fan fic somewhere. I think having them split up too much is a mistake. It would be hard to write engaging stories since this kind of show like Leverage needs the interactions to really sell the plot. I am however hopeful since they immediately decided to go with Cassandra to Peru. Favorite throwaway line-Ex-Eliot to Thief guy regarding him note being a REAL Librarian "That was a PITY notebook" or whatever their magic books are called.

"Would he ever give up power for her? No, but that's been well established that he wouldn't. But I think the Lacey episode does give a good example of the love there. The Outsider as well. It's just that loving Belle isn't enough to stop him from being a horrible person" I think Rumple THINKS he loves Belle and that he Loved Bae but that he is mistaken. He really doesn't know what love is. The way he treated Belle with the lying and the dagger and the knocking her out etc was terrible. It showed about as much respect for a person's autonomy as if he'd rufied a woman at a party. He murdered people in front of Bae while justifying it TO BAE as him showing concern for him. Ex turning a guy into a snail and crushing him because the guy accidentally bumped into Bae. Think back to being a kid. How traumatized would you have been if you were Bae. How guilty would you feel that somebody died because of you? How would you like those feelings inside you linked to your father's "love"? In other words I am saying that real love doesn't cause that much abject misery and trauma and that therefore Rumple never loved Bae or Belle or at least not since becoming the Dark One has Rumple loved anyone. He just THINKS he does. Regina's tiny and admittedly weak tether to humanity is that I do think she loves Henry. She would have given up magic and jumped into a protal with Henry if she'd been in Rumple's shoes. That doesn't mean she IS redeemed as the show keeps trying to say. It means she still has a tiny bit of humanity left that can be worked with. If Rumple can wipe Belle's memory and move to NY with his powers and start to magically take over the world all the while gaslighting Belle that he is a "good" man he would do it even if he has to keep perioudically mind wiping her and lying to her. Regina (currently) doesn't want Henry's love for her to be based on a lie or having to mind wipe him. That could change but that is where we are right now. If Regina could expand her POV to having concern for others besides Henry or in order to hold onto Henry she could be really redeemed. Rumple has not shown me the capacity for this.

Since the Lost crew isn't above screwing with time what if "the Author" is Henry from the future? I once read a short story where a kid gets a phone call from someone in the future who then gives his dad stock tips. In the end the guy tells the kid that he is him from the future who needed to help him though a rough patch because dad would have a break down soon and the guy wanted to reassure his younger self that everything works out for him in the end so he wouldn't suffer as much. He knows his extended family will take him, be nice to him, and he eventually figures out time travel and becomes rich. What if old Henry eventually becomes the sorcerer (Emma has magic maybe he inherited magic) and writes the book and sends the book to his younger self to start him on his quest to find Emma and break the curse etc?

Regarding other characters "screwing over" the queens of darkness int he past, did we ever see when Maleficent got turned into the dragon? I remember Charming fighting her in dragon form and feeding her the egg of whatever but did she change herself into the dragon or did Regina do that TO her? I can't remember. I know Regina kept her under the library in dragon form but was it Regina's fault she was a dragon? Is it possible that the magic egg kept her in dragon form so indirectly it is Charming's fault she was in dragon form for 30 years? I'm sure Snow will be responsible for SOMETHING because of course (sarcasm) Regina has to be right about Snow being aweful. And yes when I found out that Jolie was going to play Maleficent in the movie I knew that since it was being made by Disney (a) she'd have a sob story for being evil since Disney won't let petty vanity or not getting an invite be the root of evil and (b) that there would be a better than 50/50 chance that it would borrow elements of OUAT. It is lke Disney had a staff meeting where they decided that if you are a hot chick you can't be all bad and that the fairy tale staple of people marrying people they just met was always stupid and they just weren't going to go with that anymore since that attitude helped Frozen make them over a billion dollars. Money pushing positive social change is awesome.

I think Regina is going to be a double agent by pretending to join the queens of darkness or whatever that trio is called' I kind of want them to embody the Mean Girls exept on 'Wensdays they where black and Regina points out she wears black all the time. I can't wait to hear the lame apology Regina gives Maleficent for dragonifying her and then trapping her in the basement of despair. That's when we'll now she's faking because she never gives real apologies.

I think in the original the guy hadn't gotten around to molesting the kid either. But that kind of made the discussion between his wife and him after he'd been found out all the more powerful and creepy in the original. The wife gets to hear him prattle on about how he "loved" the boy and it was special etc etc till you are kind of relieved she starts beating him up so he'd shut up. I was deeply disappointed by the scene as enacted in this show. I felt there was so much waisted potential in this show. As a medical professional I couldn't help but be horrified for Tom. The amount of guilt he must feel and now can never talk about would most likely lead a kid like Tom to suicide. His mother thinks she's protecting him but in real life she would be destroying him because as someone else pointed out he will forever think his dad is is prison for his "crime" which was not a crime at all. Dude wants to fall on his sword? You betcha but have it done right. Confess to the pedo behavior and clear your son of murder and go to prison for the pedo part and negligence but don't let your kid take this horror to the grave. Kids are NOT made to carry around that big a responsibility. I want both Tom's parents to be punished for even contemplating this plan.

I agree that they went too far to realistically redeem her and also agree with KingOfHearts that we're kind of stuck with the delusion that she is already redeemed. I take a litte solice in that Regina could have just fireballed Snow through the bars of the cell and been done with it. At least even cursed Regina gave her a somewhat sporting chance even if she did cheat near the end. And I honestly did not think Regina meant she'd KILL baby Snowflake but that she'd TAKE the baby from Snow. I could be wrong but my mind went to her having a wacked out plan of raising Neal (who she would SOOO rename) as her second son and teaching him to hate Snow because deep down she knew she wouldn't suceed in killing Snow. I like the developement that Snow talked back to Regina about how if the only villain you have to deal with is yourself you have more time for infrastructure. I like to imagine that her standing up to Regina might make Regina respect her more. She respects Emma at least a little (she refers to her by name while she frequently calls the Charmings the two idiots behind thier backs) and I think that may have something to do with Emma standing up to her at least initially when she came into town. I also think that Regina finds comfort in Snow being Snow even though she won't admit it. If Snow had been a normal person Regina would have been executed back in Fairy Tale Land. I think to Regina Snow HAS to be the rock of goodness, so when Snow said -"Right now Elsa's blind faith is what screwing us over." Regina let it slip that "Coming from you that's just frightening." I laughed for a good 5 minutes. It's like Regina's relying on Snow's goodness and it is upsetting to her if Snow doesn't live up to Snow's standards. That actually may be a good sign because it shows she can at least RECOGNIZE good when she sees it. Which can be for her, a step toward becoming good. She took a similar baby step when she switched her plan from -How can I get away with killing Marion. to-Marion isn't even the problem so I won't go after her and expend my energy on the book's author instead. What can I say. I enjoy the character even though I totally agree there isn't a way in hell that her "redemption" makes any logical sense.

I think the closest they've come is when they refer to a character as a "hero" in the context of pep talks where they say they believe they are going to win. In one extreme case Henry I think even told Regina not to fear losing to Zelena (despite her being pretty gloomy about her chances because she'd already gotten her butt kicked by the sibling she found out Rumple thought was way more powerful than her because of the letter he wrote Cora) because since she was now on the side of good she couldn't lose. That is only true in Fairy Tales (and the titular hero in tv shows although they had the guts to kill off Blake in a tv show called Blake's 7. Even the actor who played Blake couldn't believe it until he read the script despite rumours.) Another thing I liked about the ep was that it showed Elsa to be both(a) a good actress in as much as she was lying when she said she tagged along with Emma to see Regna's face when she found out Emma deliberately messed up Regina's affair with Robin Hood. and (b) morally grounded in that she said she wouldn't be able to kill Ice Queen since killing is never the answer. She delivered her lines believeably without sounding holier than thow. I have to give the writers credit for making Ana and Elsa both hero's and good without being sanctimonious and dull. Now if they could do that for all the good guys we'd be golden. The Blue Fairy for one comes off as hypocritical (I don't think a good guy should go on about racial purity or whatever keeps the Dwarves from marrying Fairies) and the Charmings come off as deranged or stupid.

The part I'm not clear on is how the tranmorgafication was SUPPOSED to work and what Tripp's actions did to the process. If he hadn't gone in and kicked that crystal what would have happened? Since he did kick the crystal what did that do besides unfortunately get himself killed? Was his death for naught? Can anybody who knows the comics iluminate this aspect of what we saw? As for the rest of the episode I enjoyed it but also wish that Skye had double tapped Ward in the head and that Cal had deboned Whitehall. I feel cheated a card carrying, human experimenting Nazi didn't suffer a painful lingering death. Did anybody have a problem with Cal thinking he could just kill Whitehall? I didn't get the impression that he is supposed to have any super powers that would justify his belief in his own success. I extrapulated from what we were shown that once he was traumtized by his wife's terrible death that he was stronger than an average person because sometimes the clinically insane really DO have rediculous strength (I once saw a tiny tiny old lady throw a huge male security guard in a psych ward so that really CAN happen) but that he wasn't supervillain level of strength or bullet proof or have any super power. Am I wrong?

I tend to believe that for the Fairy Tale characters (i.e. the people we've seen on the show except for Tamara her boyfriend and her boyfriend's father) the "happily ever after" if you are a hero and death or unhappiness if you are a villain thing is somehow enforced by the universe, the fates, or the wizard the apprentice serves. So whichever it is (the universe the fates or the wizard) arranged for the bottle to be where it needed to be so that Anna would find it so she'd have a shot at fighting the curse. Think back and there are a lot of "coincidences" that have made things work out for the good guys. But unlike it being ridiculous if this show were set in our reality, I think that this kind of goings on are part of the reality these folks live in. I think ironically Regina would not/will not be able to have a happy ending UNLESS she really does become good and sticks with it. It is just that she twists things around to believing she can't have it because the book MISTAKENLY thinks she's a villain. She probably did fail to kill Snow White because she and Snow are Fairy Tale people. If she were a person from this reality she probably would have succeeded. Where this gets interesting to me is is Rumple being the Dark One immune to this rule? I'm going with not. I think given how powerful he is and how clueless the good guys are when it comes to him, if he were a person from our reality his plan would work but he isn't so he will fail due to some coincidence or other thing that would never happen in real life. Circling back to the issue above the chances that the bottle from a shipwreck years before being exactly where Anna and Kristoff were dropped in the ocean and then being sucked to this world AND Anna FINDING the message are so astronomically inprobable that it would just NEVER happen in our reality. I totally buy it in Storybrooke. I see it as they have their own laws of physics and probability.

I'm disappointed that Belle wasn't awake for the spell. I would so have loved her to dig into Rumple. Her constant cheerleading of this sociopath makes my skin crawl. That being said I did like the ep and I full on laughed at the Regina/Snow throw down. Emma and Elsa goading Regina was pretty good too. I wish we could keep the Frozen crowd but I guess they have to go back to Arendelle and recover their kingdom etc before the writers mess them up. I'll miss the Snow Queen too. Elizabeth Mitchell killed it. I was throroughly entertained by her and had sympathy for her especially since except for accidentally killing the would be kidnapper and her sister she never killed anybody. I understand they had to have her die for drama resasons but if anybody deserved redemption it was her.

Even a Doctor is not supposed to give you medication without your consent. If a male decided that HE knew best and slipped something into a woman's drink "for her own good" (for example to keep her out of trouble not to rape her) I think we'd clue into it being wrong. Just because it was a guy taking away another guy's agency doesn't make it less wrong. Also how would Hawley know what dose to give Ichabod or that Ichabod wasn't allergic to it? It is only because this is fictional and Ichabod is the star and therefore won't die that prevents this from being a guy taking a chance on killing another guy, all because the drugged guy won't take a nap as ordered to by his non-superior. Made me think Hawley is even more of an egotistical jerk than I already did. It is just all kinds of wrong and I'm disappointed Abbie was OK with this. If she weren't so awesome the rest of the time I'd have lost some of my love for her (and also really questioned both her morals and her intelligence.)

Total speculation but maybe they let Amelia "live" because the show will go the route of the scientists finding a cure or something. I can think of only on show that has ever had zombies get better and that is the British show In the Flesh. It is relatively unmined territory. It would also open up the can of worms of regret that they gave "mercy" to all their loved ones and if hey hadn't they might have been able to recoop them.

I think Peter Pan Is revivable. He died when Rumple died and Rumple is back so if the show wants him back t is doable. Only it might be ickier that Regina had crypt sex with rumple's dad.

I totally agree. How much more fun would Emilie's appearances be if she were playing the Mirror? I enjoyed the few minutes she was the mirror way more than anything else she's done even the time she hung out with Mulan which is now my second favorite. Everytime she yammers on propping Rumple she makes me hate her. Sydney could be her cohost/sidekick. He's used to being bossed around by a woman. They've established that the radio shows in SB are kind of wierd. Wasn't there news of shinanigans involving Rip Van Winkle? Does anybody remember the exact thing?

I understand your frustration but while the Dark Curse was billed as the worst it really wasn't. I mean I'm a nice person but even I could think of 20 curses that would have been worse. For one thing yes Snow and Charming were separated but they didn't KNOW they were separated so that isn't the same level of pain. Secondly while being a lonely school teacher may not be as much fun as being a Rock Star married to a supermodel it isn't anywhere near as bad as if Regina had cursed Mary Margaret to be a crack whore. So if the writers say they've come up with something worse that the Dark Curse I'm OK with it.

I want a short scene where Regina calls Emma SQ and Elsa the Plastics and is pissed off they didn't want her in thier magic girl club. Altenately they could be the Heathers. Would people still get that reference? I'm kind of looking forward to the Storybrookers turning on each other I'm just not sure who I want to see Granny go after with a cross bow. Hey maybe order is restored when Emma puts magic goo on the Statue of Liberty and she (the Statue) walks into town to the tune of (Your love is Lifting Me) Higher and Higher.

It may have just been by accident but the writers finally made Regina think of somebody other than herself or Henry for a couple of minutes. She thought about Emma and how it would suck for her to give up her magic. This is significant because (a) normally Regina would LOVE for somebody she's mad at or thinks slighted her to suffer. Old Regina would have cackled at Emma being powerless (since she doesn't know that Emma would be in the hat, not wandering Storybrooke) and relish the idea of using magic ON her like giving her telekinetic wedges at least even though she no longer wants her dead. (b) in order to give that speech to Snowing she had to be at least a little empathic. She had to make that leap-"Gee I wouldn't like it if I were forced to give up MY powers. Emma probably wouldn't like it either. Gee Snowing aren't doing what's right for Emma. Let me bother to point this out." Old Regina just wouldn't be capable of that kind of thinking and if she HAD thought about it not being good for Emma, Regina would have no reason to share that with Snowing because there was nothing in it for her. For instance if Rumple was aware that somebody else was going to de-power somebody he was nuetral to, he wouldn't warn that person unless there was something in it for him. So I think the writers wrote in a little empathy on Regina's part and that is a step forward for her. If she ever does something decent for an adult stranger just because, she'll have matured a great deal. Saving Marion from the Snow Monster would have counted if she hadn't done harm to Marion before and therefore owed her. I can't help it. The relationship between Snow and Regina always makes me giggle. Snow always reminds me that she handed down the "love Regina although it's crazy" gene to Emma and through her to Henry. You look at all that has happened and know that no rational human being could love Regina after what she has personally done to each of those three people, but they do. I include Emma although she has a milder case (obviously because her gene wasn't expressed until she was an adult and both Snow and Henry were exposed to Regina since childhood) she desperately wants Regina to be her friend despite Regina trying to put her in the Sleeping Curse. She even promised Regina a Happy Ending which is crazy. Snow OTOH goes up to 11 and I swear I'm convinced that if REGINA were under a curse that Snow kissing her on the cheek would wake her up. Snow is JUST THAT nuts about her. Some people dislike this but I find it fascinating. I think it is because I factor in that Snow isn't supposed to be a normal person. She's Snow White, the eternal optimist extraodinaire. It's kind of her THING. Sometimes when I turn on the show I say "What kind of over the top declaration of love and support will Snow throw at Regina now?" I truely believe that at some point Snow White will ask Regina the Evil Queen, scurge of Nations to babysit the Snowflake. Maybe even before she lets Emma do it.

I can't believe Lizzie let Tom murder an innocent and then let him go. That is just so sociopathic. BTW Who got rid of the body? I didn't see that. As was pointed out the daughter should have been older if she was dating a dicedent in 1991That's 23 years ago. That is a loooong time. IF a guy were smirking at me while choking a guy to death I would have no trouble shooting him. What the HELL was that? She's an FBI agent. She's supposed to protect people. I forgave the actress' limited range but I am not forgiving the character's complete lack of morality.

Zombies of course can't exist. Part of being dead is you stop moving so if you suspend that rule then you can suspend any rule BUT assuming that part is the only non scientific rule in TWD then it would make sense for the older zombies to get easier to defeat. They should be rotting and seriously how long would it take for dead meat to rot in Georgia? I don't want the show to end so of course I'm OK with the zombie apocalypse not ending but I would think that in real life it would. The hotter climes would have accelerated rotting and after a couple of years most of the walkers would be easily disposed of mush. All the survivors would have to do would be rebuild and make sure that everybody is armed and that thier sick and elderly are locked up at night for when they die so they don't attack any healthy people. The trick would be re-establishing civilization and I think we could do that. That being said I wonder how on the show they can keep the walkers as a believeable threat. We've seen Sasha and Maggie fight off oodles. I think the day would come where even a herd would be so slow and mushy that this gang could defeat it.

Thanks for editing my previous posts.

I agree but since these aren't real people they are the mercy of the writer's abilities to make it make sense. So it shows a failure of the writing to make it seem plausible. That being said if I HAD to make sense of it I would go with the concept that Helen after being violated and being unable to stop her daughter from being violated was so in shock that she retreated into a la la land where what was going on JUST IS NOT HAPPENING. MASSIVE DENIAL. Consequently she (a) had to believe that Abe had lost HIS mind because if the rape didn't happen then his killing those guys didn't have a reason (b) felt that she had to get away from where it happened in order to maintain the delusion that the rape never happened © fled from Abe because he's a giant reminder that it DID happen and (d) convinced herself that there weren't any Walkers outside because if your mind can't handle a rape how the heck is it going to handle the dead have risen and are going to eat you. The sum total of it all leading to her blindly fleeing and getting herself and kids killed in a desparate and doomed effort to flee to ostensibly the past, where things were good. Under all that was probably the subconcious wish to end it all so she didn't have to deal with it anymore. I truely believe that if any of that was what the writers wished to convey it could have been done but it just didn't come across in this.

Thanks I've ordered season one for now.

Oh I agree. She'll be preggers and he'll get another chance to be a dad. And she'll forgive him again. I kind of wish she'd cross him, try to keep the baby from him and then FINALLY saw what a monster he is but that will never happen. He is her Beast and so regardless they are meant to be. She will believe that he is a good person and that that goodness will be front and center for the new baby. If we're lucky he'll give up magic for a week to prove what a great dad he is. It is to the point that I would settle for Belle just acknowledging that he is stone cold evil even if it doesn't change anything. Just so that she doesn't look like such a moron.