ReadMeLattice

You're right, I didn't read that correctly, he admits to doing it once but he was arrested for it twice. Very strange...? I actually personally believe both -- that they were at least highly toxic but that Farrah is fully responsible for her own behavior. I don't think they are related except for the fact that they were bad role models just like Farrah is to her child. Michael at least admits to a violent felony, so not much of a question there. I also believe the police were not lying about Debra's violence as they'd have no reason to. Jenelle wasn't convicted either but she definitely threw that damn jar IMO. However, do I think Farrah could be lying? Absolutely. I don't believe James Dean was her boyfriend any more than I believe the specifics of her stories about her parents or anything else. Due to multiple arrests and an admission I do believe her parents were dangerous, but perhaps not to Farrah (though beating a child with a belt is illegal in most states if that did occur). But I also believe (because I have eyes) that Farrah is dangerous. Both can be true. I don't necessarily believe Debra was abused by Michael as she claims, either. Both women are not very honest. As someone who kept an abusive parent in my life long after the expiration date, I know it's not that simple to just cut someone out, unfortunately. However, it's true: I would not bring that abusive person around my daughter. But some would and do. It's not proof they weren't abusive; we know April was, we know Butch was, we know Kailyn's mom was. But it is wrong. And Farrah is indeed proving herself to be a bad mother by keeping them in her life if her claims are true. It might be hard but it's totally immoral. However, I also think neither of her parents has any room to complain about Farrah's behavior. They don't have to appear on the show, they don't have to make money off of their appearances and they don't have to borrow money from her for plastic surgery or start businesses with her. If they don't agree with what's said about them, or feel she is the abusive one, they could refuse to be on the show that focuses on her or profit from it, but they don't. TL;DR I think all of them are trash, especially the two women, just my two cents.

I don't mind if she does as long as she's given a breathalyzer throughout pregnancies. Lol.

@SPLAIN, does that mean Leah is exposed to the show? I'm not normally pushy about kids not seeing certain movies and shows (I read The Godfather and watched Titanic at 8, and was fine all around) but Howard Stern is seriously disgusting. More than the actual content, the messages his interviews send are so damaging to women. So gross. Matt is honestly one of the creepiest creepers I've ever seen on television. Like, ever.

I would donate to that, generously.

Classy.

First off, I really doubt it's actually Ginger's LAST binger. Secondly, why are Maci's friends always making Ryan and Maci out to be Casablanca? He barely tolerated her in 16&P when she was CURRENTLY PREGNANT WITH HIS CHILD. Why would he want her in any way two more kids later?!?!

I volunteer to read this book and give y'all a recap. What is happening to me....lol

I vote Leah's kids as most likely.

She's not even fat, I don't get why she dresses in such an unflattering way. I actually think she has a cute face and a curvy/stocky body that could look great in some plus size dresses or shirt/jean combos...or even just her regular size, she likely wears a 12/14 or so (just guessing), which is VERY normal, especially when one has had two kids. They make really cute stuff for people with larger body frames or a few extra pounds now. She's not a stunning beauty, but she's probably the average size (maybe even smaller) of an American woman. And she has amazing hair. But then she gets plastic surgery and dresses like she's going to the club and is 4 sizes smaller than she is. If she dressed her actual body she could look adorable. She makes herself LOOK hugely fat by wearing that stuff when she doesn't have to. I don't get it.

To be fair, Michael, like Deb, was arrested for threatening someone (Derek, I think?) with a knife in 2008. He was charged with a felony. So both of her parents have been arrested at least once that we know of for violence. It's not much of a stretch in my mind to think they were also violent at home. Normal non abusive people do not get arrested for threatening people with knives. Whatever happened in that house was scary. https://www.google.com/amp/radaronline.com/celebrity-news/farrah-abraham-house-of-horrors-father-arrested-felony-weapons-charges/amp/?client=ms-android-verizon For his part, Michael admits "going after" Derek violently not once, but twice. Debra claims he abused her too, during their marriage. He denies this. Lots of abuse claims going around that house. Wonder what's true. http://www.realmrhousewife.com/2016/02/18/michael-abraham-debra-danielson-was-not-abused-by-me-exclusive/

I think I would too...a whole skeleton of bones. Lol! Separate thought (not in response to anyone, sorry @GreatAtBoats it won't let me untag you): I didn't know this until recently, but Michael was also previously charged with a felony for threatening Derek with a knife. In my mind that is not protective or typical, that is a scary person committing a violent crime. I was surprised because I thought Michael was the non crazy one in their creepy loony bin. This family is not normal. If you're willing to brandish knives at cops and boyfriends, I shudder to think what you do to your own kids. Sophia is going to need so much damn therapy. https://www.google.com/amp/radaronline.com/celebrity-news/farrah-abraham-house-of-horrors-father-arrested-felony-weapons-charges/amp/?client=ms-android-verizon Debra says he abused HER as well. He says no he didn't but he did attack/threaten Derek twice and doesn't see anything wrong with it. Wtf is wrong with these people.

100%. Debra is absolute textbook gaslighter and emotional abuser. Now Farrah does it to her daughter. It will likely continue. I believe the claims of abuse because they were verified by the police. If it was just an issue of spanking or strict parenting, it wouldn't be verified by a police interaction. But it was. Those saying "she lets Sophia stay with her"-- I get it, but as someone who was abused by a parent -- when I have a child it WILL be difficult not to let that child alone around the parent, though I will not. Unless you've experienced it, unfortunately it's hard to understand the depth of your desire to believe it's "all ok." My husband has to pressure me not to be overly involved in that person's life. And I'm not a crazy person, substance abuser, etc. I don't need fame or money. But it is damn near impossible to just totally toss that person aside.

@Christina, I remember the alcoholism accusations (as you say, not just from Farrah) and bipolar stuff...She could very well be bipolar too. Deb honestly scares me when she talks, very manic. You just know that when the police arrived, she was acting insane with those knives. I believe they wrote that she was intoxicated and refusing to put them down after repeated requests from the cops. Farrah is a different kind of crazy, more lucid but much more needlessly rude and aggressive. Deb seemed more like that in the early specials. Might have just moved on to more substance abuse. Farrah and Deb have a classic toxic codependent power struggle relationship. Farrah gets free help and validation from her mom but hates her and makes her know it. She plays the aggressor but is secretly deeply insecure. Deb seems to get off on playing the victim (their segment on Couples Therapy was incredibly telling and creepy if anybody saw it) but certainly reaps financial and fame-related benefits from sticking around. They both have things to gain from the other and not much to offer in the way of actual affection. I feel really bad for Sophia with those two in her life.

@WhosThatGirl and called himself her grandfather!!! The fact that B&T even answered a text from C&T ever again after that shows they are essentially angels.

Thank you @SPLAIN for your perspective. I also think two things... 1) I'm not sure why people think Teresa DIDN'T tell Cate. We saw her take a phone call, for goodness' sake, and saw a year of TV of the two of them saying that if they didn't stop talking about Carly and B&T on camera or posting pictures of their child, visits would be slowed or stopped. We've seen it, so we know that happened a lot more behind the scenes. So I'm not sure why some think Cate was blindsided...it's been months, maybe years, of this crap. Explicitly stated to them. 2) If anything it seems like B&T got tricked or the raw end of the deal. I don't think they 'won' at all. Like @SPLAIN said, they signed up for one little documentary, basically a PSA for adoption. I'm sure they thought they'd show the meetings, the birth, a few talking heads of why adoption was hard but beneficial, a little of the bittersweet aftermath, and then maybe some occasional updates with high school and college graduations, a few shots of Carly thriving and Cate and Tyler married and happy. Cate and Tyler were at the time cute teens from broken families who had been abused and misguided. They got pregnant, then their baby was adopted out so they could get jobs, become stable, get married, go to college and have careers their families would only have dreamed of. How could B&T have guessed that they'd become celebrity obsessed, materialistic adults with another kid, multiple breakups, a decade of 3 different reality shows, fancy cars, no college, no jobs, major mental problems and an inability to keep basic rules? That's not what they signed up for when they thought, "let's help ourselves but also a baby and two unfortunate kids."

Storybook romance?!?! Yes, forcing a dude to marry you to the point of having two fake accident kids with him and saying "finally" when he proposes is right up there with The Notebook. Cate is TEXTBOOK dead inside. She gave up everything, even her (former) daughter, for Tyler. Now he clearly doesn't love her and she realizes she doesn't even really want to be a mom but she does apparently want things for herself...pets, etc. But she's too dumb or too lazy or depressed to go get real things for herself, like a career. That cruise thing confuses my emotions. On one hand I enjoy watching Farrah flail and suffer; on another hand, she's right that the cast is low class as they come. I also love that she joked about beer pong with pedophile boyfriends. Come on, that's funny. Also I think Matt is the worst person on the show by far, so any jokes about him give me joy. Count me in as thinking that Deb's motives aren't so pure, just like Michael who made $$ off of Farrah's porn he claimed to hate. I hate Farrah but I get just as shady a vibe from Deb and have ever since 16&P with the creepy faux Christian thing she was slinging. She gets $$, business opportunities, plastic surgery, glam and attention from hanging around Farrah. I'm too jaded to think that ol arrested-for-DV, wouldn't-put-down-the-knife, baby voice Deb isn't also personality disordered. JMO. NPD runs in that family like whoa. Do y'all think Cate and Tyler will make it in the long run?

Dawn isn't doing Theresa's "dirty work," she's doing her job. Theresa and Brandon owe nothing to C&T and it's not "dirty work" at all. They are Carly's parents and I wouldn't want trashy C&T around my child either. Triple that feeling if they actually felt possessive of MY child. I'd be pissed as hell at them and their bratty entitlement by now. I remember the adoption conversations C&T had on-screen in the early days. There was no sense of manipulation and they called the adoption "semi-open." They had an adoption counselor and clearly seemed aware of what they were getting into. I don't think they were manipulated at all. Re: Farrah, she and her family are so sleazy. Do Debra and Michael both live off of Farrah's (and their) porn and reality TV money, or just Debra?

Exactly...it's been a source of conflict from the beginning because they knew exactly what they agreed to. They weren't hoodwinked and they aren't Carly's parents. They have no grounds to sue or even complain.

True. This is especially the case for higher end schools. https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2012/09/14/new-research-finds-sat-equally-predictive-those-high-and-low-socioeconomic-status

In my experience, they're putting more and more emphasis on it. Count me in as betting Leah won't last a semester.

If they were promised something they haven't gotten, I'm not sure why they've been so clear of their knowledge of the adoption's boundaries since day 1. They seemed very aware even in 16 and Pregnant.

I meant April in both of those, lol. I could have sworn they were related to an Amber, though.

I'm not really sure why people are still trying to make the case that what happened with Bethany was illegal. They are a very well known national adoption agency. Are they hyper Christian and pro life and have people had complaints, yes. Are some of those critiques regarding their worldview probably valid, yes. Are they in the business of illegal adoptions or any illegal activity? Absolutely not. They've operated openly for years. They don't do anything illegal. Period. I don't feel bad for Cate and Tyler at all. They repeatedly said throughout the series that they knew they had zero legal rights. They absolutely, 100% knew what they were getting into and that document was wildly clear and simple. They have said over and over that they knew the visits could be cut off. Since day 1 they've said that. They were not deceived. They are not Carly's parents in any way. Their rabid fans and the reality show $$ and a sense of entitlement are what keep them interested in Carly. Their fans are constantly pushing them to sue, to get a lawyer, calling them Carly's parents, telling them B&T are evil, etc. This has nothing to do with not knowing. Dawn was reminding them because they were demanding things they know full well it is not within their rights to demand, as people who are not connected to Carly any way but emotionally. Last season, Cate said unequivocally, "They could cut off visits if we don't follow the rules." Tyler said this season that he knows the visits could end because he doesn't follow the rules but he doesn't care. Nothing ambiguous about that at all.

They definitely allowed the abuse to continue and didn't seem to defend Gary at all. Abuse on this show, whether shown or discussed, is often just tossed aside as NBD. Butch abused April horribly, supposedly not on camera but I'm skeptical, and April allowed her boyfriends to repeatedly assault her daughter and it's just written off as "in the past." Jenelle (and Nathan?) abused animals on-screen and she half heartedly apologized. Leah and Jenelle have both neglected kids onscreen in my opinion, and Corey and Leah are both on record as openly endangering their disabled daughter. Farrah assaulted a producer, Kail assaulted Javi, and Maci was allowed (probably encouraged) to lie on screen about her pregnancy (along with Taylor) so she didn't have to have the public know she deliberately endangered her child. People also regularly emotionally abuse each other and MTV says nothing and doesn't make it clear. They should absolutely have spoken out against Gary's abuse, against the animal abuse, about the fact that what Adam said to Chelsea in those texts was absolutely abuse, period, that what Matt has done to those women is abusive, etc. They just throw up a warning about dating violence for 10 seconds. It's NOT ok.

So yeah, Jeremy is trash in case you were wondering. His new Instagram post has a close up of a vagina with a cartoon beaver in front of it..."Shave the Beaver, not the Beard."