Carrie Ann

Fun game time--I liked how the info/clues came at the answer from different angles. Also, count me as happy to trade timecodes for ads and dollars! Yay!

I think it feels now like both shows are overscripted, but I can't tell if that's actually true or if it's just that previously Chris delivered most of the scripted dialogue, and Julia and Bridget are just not as good at delivering it so it feels like there's more of it.

I agree with just about everything you posted, but this sums it up for me. I haven't gone back to rewatch since I became too embittered and sad about what had become of my once-favorite show. But Season 2 is Desert Island TV for me and I'd throw S1 and S3 in there too, if I could pack a really big bag. :) I'd defend those early seasons against all comers, and in this age of Peak TV, I think they hold up quite well in terms of plotting and sheer enjoyment per minute to just about anything that's aired since. In fact, I feel like some more-lauded cable and streaming series could take a lesson from TVD in those areas. And w/r/t Stelena, I did stop rooting for the pairing when I saw the writing on the wall (and really when I started hating Elena), but I will always root for Nina and Paul (and Daniel Gillies over on TO, among others) to find new roles that fully use their talents, because they are capable of so much and I hope more people get to see it.

I got Humphrey Agnew and then my husband got Joan Humphrey, and, IMO we really need to get back to naming people Humphrey and other Hump-inclusive names.

I don't think the WGA strike threat was a bluff at all--they had like 97% support from their membership to strike, and very good, valid reason to do so, and I think the AMPTP knew it, which is why the WGA succeeded. I don't know as much about the SAG demands, but if they are for similar reasons, I'm guessing they will have similar support and the result will hopefully be the same.

To start with the positive: I really enjoyed 516-523, with some reservations. But then there's everything else. I was quite bitter about a number of off-screen/PR-related things this season. But to stick to the show itself: I think the writers botched just about every storyline they set up in the early going. Saint Laurel was nonsense. The noobs' introduction was very poorly considered and executed. Quentin's relapse arc was repetitive and had no payoff, except for the bonding with Thea, which I did like. I think Paul and Willa did the very best with what little they had, all season. Also, IMO the writers feel completely opposite of most viewers when it comes to Thea becoming more like Moira. I'm rooting for it, personally. I think Thea is kinda boring as a white-hat and would prefer her to be more grey and for Oliver to STFU about it. Diggle's army/prison arc was worthless except for clearing the way for the noobs, and ultimately there was very little reaction to the Sara stuff. Felicity had a lot to do with the new team in 5A, and I appreciated her role there a lot, but they utterly blew it with Havenrock and Billy. I understand that Billy was only there to be killed by Oliver, but there were ways to handle it that would have accomplished the same goals without creating issues with characterization and continuity. Felicity's "dark turn" (not so dark, really) should have also been informed by Havenrock, her paralysis, Sara's murder, Laurel's murder, etc. They should have taken the opportunity to tell a deeper story by exploring how five years worth of trauma caused Felicity to start feeling "any means necessary" about things. Billy was a blip on the radar, and a flimsy motivation. (But it would also have been richer if they had their facts straight--she's been grey from the beginning and she definitely did not back Oliver every time she disapproved of his choices.) Speaking of flimsy motivations...Adrian Chase. Good thing I love Josh Segarra so much, because otherwise Prometheus would have been maybe the worst Arrow Big Bad ever. As it was, his schtick got tiresome by the end, like Slade's did, but I always loved the performance. And then there's Oliver. I guess I'm one of the people who didn't hate Oliver this season; I just stopped understanding him, which made it hard to feel much of anything for him. I don't think I really understood where he was coming from until 516, and even then it stayed pretty fuzzy for the rest of the season. I think the writers forgot about the "where's the Oliver in every story" thing, and instead they just came up with their stories and gave Oliver whatever motivation fit that day--which has happened throughout the series, but it was more pronounced this year--or they didn't even bother figuring out his motivations. Usually, my complaint is that only Oliver gets a POV and we're left to wonder about the other characters, but this season, it felt like even Oliver didn't always get one and when he did, it was often nonsensical. We were just presented with stuff, and left to fill in the blanks about the why of it all. So when it comes to next season, I guess I just hope it's more like the last eight episodes and not the first 15, and that someone will give the EPs some media training (lol @ me) But my expectations are now as low as possible, so I'll just plan to tune out again when things aren't going my way next year.

That sparked my memory--that was part of a whole series of Old Mil commercials, all centered around fishing (and other outdoorsy stuff like skiing, white water rafting, airboating, and log-rolling, sure why not) in great American locales, with almost the exact same script, ending with something like "Hey guys, it doesn't get any better than this." A few others: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omzIEHkHrc8 (Cape Hatteras, NC) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOQb8qeQ_gA (Snake River, WY) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjKzkVqNN4o (Crow Wing, MN)

OK. You can look at the link I provided for the sources and details of all of this info. I agree that much of their timeline doesn't "make sense," because I don't think the writers nailed down all the dates in advance, and then certain things don't really track (and they occasionally contradict themselves). Keith lost his job a couple of months after Lilly's death, and soon after decided he wanted to stay in Neptune and become a PI and that's (apparently) what finally made Lianne leave. And yes, RT says that Homecoming, D/V and L/L breakups, and Lilly's murder all took place in a two week period in late September-early October. As far as Homecoming--in the US, Homecoming generally takes place in September-November, so that date makes sense. (Maybe you're thinking of Prom, which takes place in spring usually?). And until I rewatched, I always thought Shelly's party was end of schoolyear as well, especially because everyone's attire said "summer" to me, but they live in SoCal, so it's always summer. December is the canon date for the party.

Couple corrections: The Homecoming dance they all went to was in the fall of their Sophomore year (Lilly's junior year), shortly before Lilly's murder, and Duncan froze Veronica out very shortly after. Shelly Pomroy's party was in December, not at the end of the school year, and Logan didn't sexually assault her at that party (or ever?), unless I really misunderstood something. There are pretty good timelines available here, but you'll see several duplications/inconsistencies because I don't think the show was that great at continuity w/r/t dates.

I think he might actually be a stripper dressed as a cop...but that's just because of the vibe of the movie.

I think she was confirming his ulterior motives but also challenging them. To make sure he was suggesting this course of action for the right reasons and not just to keep her where he thought she was safest.

Yes. All the DO IT FOR SAINT LAUREL stuff at the beginning of the season falls into the same category for me. I think this is the major failing of this season, which was full of failings: it disregarded its own history and instead expected the audience to care about things it took no time or effort to make us care about. So nothing resonated, and that's how the season is apparently going to go out, too--asking us to feel deeply about Oliver's Deep Feelings for his son, a character we don't know, a relationship we've never seen, which has barely been discussed this season. Of course, I'm sure Thea, Dig, Felicity and the others will be threatened, too. But, again, the show spent 2/3 of a season asking us to only care about new relationships and new characters (or dead ones), even though they didn't bother to ever show us why we should do that. And now in the last third of the season, they want us to go back to caring about Oliver's deepest relationships, except not too much, because they all pale in comparison to the most important, least-shown relationship of all. Bleh. *prayers up for Samantha and William's long lives outside of Star City* I'll admit I only watched the flashbacks via FF, but I actually found this hilarious? The show had to come up with an explanation for why for the last few years of flashbacks, FB!Oliver has barely considered Laurel, when we know that in S1 he claimed that she was the thing that kept him alive. So...now we know: at the last possible moment, he was drugged and hallucinated a version of her that told him what he needed to hear and that's how we get to S1. As usual, Oliver's idea of Laurel, and hers of him, has little basis in reality.

I feel like I missed something, because I don't think I get the point of these?

508 is my least favorite episode of the season and in my bottom 5 of the series in general, so it makes perfect sense that it's Marc's favorite. Because he is the woooooooorrrrrrst. The logic of the alien dream world needed SOME explanation, because the world presented erases not just going on the Queen's Gambit (as the producers kind of implied in their few attempts to set the scene (I think they knew none of this would hold up under any scrutiny)), but also the previous 5 years of Oliver's life (and everyone else's), or however many years it would take for his relationship with Laurel to never become the toxic, one-sided disaster it was, but ALSO make Malcolm (and Robert and Moira) not turn evil, since he was still the Queens' friend. And William wasn't around, so in order to believe that this world represented Oliver's greatest wish, you have to believe that he would be more concerned about Malcolm being in his life than William. In truth, the show as usual had several items on a checklist to include (bring back the dead loved ones and big bads!), and it did it in the worst and hackiest way possible, IMO. And especially for the 100th episode of a series to focus on characters and story arcs that have been dead since the pilot or S1/2 instead of showcasing the thing that actually defined the show (Team Arrow, sorry not sorry, haters) for all five seasons was a mistake and a bummer for those of us who stuck around not to sulk about not getting a comic book dutifully transferred to screen but because we actually loved this show. I thought that's what they wanted us to do, but it seems like no matter what, we're all always watching the show wrong.

I've had a few days to stew over this episode, and it's still kind of hard to talk about. Because my emotions are wayyyyy up here, and my rational thoughts are way down here, and I can't make them reconcile. If the episode were completely devoid of context, or even if I just paid no attention to interviews or comments from the cast and EPs, I would probably feel more satisfied by it on the non-emotional level. But as it is, the episode had, say, five agenda items I expected it to accomplish, and here's how I would grade it on each: 1) Explain the, in Stephen's Amell's words, "very deliberate almost robotic feeling or temperature to their relationship this year." Grade: D Their "robotic" behavior with each other and dating other people actually makes even less sense now. I would be very interested to hear what Stephen thinks the explanation was. Where they left off in the flashbacks, it seemed very much like they were just in a holding pattern until Felicity felt ready to talk, so her relationship with Billy (and its retconned importance) and Oliver's non-reaction to it don't follow, and their "regimented" attitudes with each other before and after that reveal don't either. The only glimmer of an explanation I can see is that they stayed far away from each other physically and emotionally because they can't control their feelings and they'd just end up screwing on all surfaces. Like...was that actually it, though??? 2) Reveal more about the reasons for their breakup, on which MG basically admitted they dropped the ball in S4. Grade: C I didn't feel like we really got much that was new about their breakup, except for Felicity apologizing for just walking away without talking. Which I didn't personally hate, but would have much preferred it be balanced by more insight and remorse on Oliver's side. Marc suggested in his response to a Tumblr ask that Oliver would address "his train of thought about the son situation or talk about the circumstances around it like the Barry telling him what happened in the other time line thing." That did not happen. The one other useful piece of information we got was when Felicity homed in on the trust thing, and said that Oliver couldn't trust anyone and she didn't understand why, but maybe if she did... 3) Show Felicity and Oliver coming to understand something about each other, which would resolve certain things re: their breakup and Helix. Grade C- So, presumably, Felicity's new understanding of Oliver is about why he can't trust people, then? And that's related to the way that he actually can't trust himself? And her understanding somehow has something to do with Billy's death? And Helix? And her being willing to do whatever it takes no matter what to get payback? I...yeah, I don't follow. But, more importantly, even if that connection was clear, trust really had nothing to do with why he didn't tell her about William. If the show wanted to complicate that now by having Oliver reveal that actually what Barry told him did make him of terrified of losing her, and that he feels like everyone who is really a part of his life gets hurt and he kind of subconsciously agreed with Samantha that keeping William separate from his life was a good idea, then okay, I would still think it was a retcon, but I would have accepted it. But they didn't bother doing that, they just sort of had Felicity say "I understand, I get it now" and neither the Thing She Got nor the Reason She Got It hang together under any scrutiny. Also, I'm left to guess at what new understanding Oliver reached about Felicity. 4) Leave Oliver with some sort of question that relates to his relationship with Felicity but also drives his journey toward the finale. Grade: B+ I thought this was pretty good. The question that Oliver needs to answer for himself, and what he needs to do, was pretty clearly stated--figure out what kind of person you are. It's a little late in the season and it's repetitive as hell, but it's an action item for Oliver, w/r/t his relationship with Felicity and his fight against Chase and in general. He needs to believe once and for all that he's a good man who deserves good things, and that he can trust himself so that he will trust others too, and then Felicity will be willing to be in a relationship with him again. Which is great, because, see #5. 5) Remind the audience why we should bother to root for O/F by focusing on them in flashbacks and isolating them in present day, and letting the SA/EBR chemistry do its work. Grade: A+++++++++++++++++ The thing about #5 is...it makes everything else just seem sort of unimportant. Like, oh, are these writers still hacks who can't seem to follow their own narrative threads? Must be Wednesday. It just does not matter in the face of this: What will it take to get more of that??? If the answer is to accept the vague motivations and nonsensical explanations for their behavior, then fine! I accept! Just end this nonsense and let these precious people interact again. I need those hearteyes in my life every week. (Also the dimples and the abs and the butts, pls.)