rab01

I don't remember any actual controversy but Alex had competed before so it wasn't that she always won Next Iron Chef. I think there may have been some issue with Geoffrey taking part in the judging since Alex had teamed up with him in some Iron Chef battles (maybe?). And I remember a feeling in the later seasons of Next Iron Chef that that you could figure out elimination order by the chef's ties to Food Network. But, all of them know each other and all of them were more than willing to work with FN so it was probably a level enough playing field ... (I wasn't an Alex fan so I was willing to entertain conspiracy theories but I just don't remember seeing any articles.) The only one where I read articles on suspect judging was the first one where Simon beat Besh and afterwards one of the judges (Ruhlman maybe?) said in an interview that he voted for his friend Simon even though Besh may have cooked a better meal. Simon turned out to be fabulous for FN so he was probably the right choice for them regardless but I remember being shocked that Ruhlman would admit it.

The format was practically identical to Next Iron Chef (and that's what I expected this to be) so I wasn't disappointed by that. The resumes of some of the contestants aren't up to the level of the current Iron Chefs or the contestants on the first season of Next Iron Chef but I thought they compared favorably to some of the people on later seasons of Next Iron Chef (when I vaguely recall Alex Guarneschelli competing in season after season until she finally won). I agree with everyone, however, that the set is too claustrophobic and dull if they are going to stay there for every episode. As for Stephanie's choice on who to send in to elimination, I think she picked the only way possible for her. If she sent in a "threat", she would have been practically begging the other chefs to send her in as soon as she didn't win a challenge because the winner of the first challenge is the most obvious threat out there.

Sasha and Rosita didn't have a plan let alone a decent plan for killing Negan. I have no idea why Sasha would consider herself (possibly the group's best sniper) more dispensable than Rosita. I have no idea why she wouldn't assume that Rosita will just try again, regardless. I really have no idea why no one has said to Rosita's complaints the last few days - "Excuse me, you tried killing Negan and missed. Why am I listening to you whine and complain about the rest of us who are taking actual steps towards bringing him down?" All that said, I think they abandoned their hide-out and snipe at him plan because the radio said that the Saviors were going to search the surrounding buildings to gather more walkers.

I said a few episodes into the series that I was going to hate the conspiracy plot because the eventually revealed motivations would never be enough to merit all the risk (and death) they had to endure to achieve their ends and I still feel that way, That said, I liked this episode (even though it was all conspiracy) because it was the right kind of ludicrous. Playing fast and loose with obvious stuff about how the government works is boring but doing the same about assassins can be goofy fun. That in mind, here's my head canon for why it was up to MacLeish to make sure Catalan died -- because that way the conspiracy increases their hold on him. He's clearly a weak reed and the people running the conspiracy probably know that so they plan various ways to make him more and more complicit.

Harpy, I can't like your post so I have to comment to second it --- BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO There was the perfect amount of children in this past episode, enough so that I could stop wondering why they weren't at the hospital and not a moment more.

Bush famously wore a Kevlar vest when throwing out the first pitch at the Yankees game after 9/11. I don't know about whether the president usually wears kevlar at open events. For the posters wondering about the stock market drop, the show did mention the stock market circuit breakers but that people could still lose a boatload and the show got that right. I just checked and you get a 15 minute halt in trading at the 7% and 13% loss level and it doesn't close for the day until 20% is lost.

I can't keep that stuff straight either but I suspect this is the kind of show that won't sweat the continuity anyway. But I don't think you were wrong. Just because we've been told that she took up with KS right after the prison guy doesn't mean anyone would automatically believe that story. The press would ask "so you're saying you didn't start dating KS until after the break up but he could be the father? And you got married less than two months after you met?" Since even we call him President milquetoast, there would be tons of bloviators talking about whether they believed that story and what it said about him. -- I'd bet a lot of them would be like "See, he's nobody's first choice." Also, I don't want to even imagine the pieces about his wife given what we've seen written about first ladies over the years.

Thanks for bringing up visine. I had missed the stories about its use as a poison and your post led me into an interesting rabbit hole. I don't think, however, that a bottle of visine in the lemonade pitcher would have taken care of Negan. From a Wired article description of visine poisoning: "The Toxnet entry, based partly on cases of children who swallowed a bottle of eyedrops or nosedrops left carelessly on a table or counter, notes that “drowsiness and mild coma” often alternate with periods of thrashing and hyperactivity. What does this tell us, aside from the obvious home precautionary warnings (don’t leave your eye drop bottles lying around the house and, by the way don’t drink them)? The record tells us that tetrahydrozoline while poisonous is not a top-of-line-lethal substance. According to the safety sheet, acute oral toxicity in lab mice stands at an LD50 of 345 mg/kg. (LD50 stands for lethal dose 50 percent, meaning the amount of a toxic substance that will kill half of a test population). For comparison, the LD50 of potassium cyanide in mice is 5 mg/kg. And that difference means that while people do end up the hospital, they tend to survive the stay. This is good news for victims and also for perpetrators, as so many of them end up arrested thanks in part to the very characteristic symptoms of eye drop poisoning." A Negan who survives the drink while alternating between drowsiness and hyperactivity doesn't sound like a great outcome ...

I was looking somewhat forward to the Negan storyline but it's not because he's the worst villain "evar." It's because COMPARED TO THE OTHER COMICS villains, he was the most intelligent and layered so I had hopes for what the new and improved TV version of him would be. In the comics, the governor is a one-dimensional lunatic bad guy but the show gave him depth and layers (basically turning him into comics-Negan). Unfortunately, TV-Negan is more cartoonish than comics-Negan, rather than the reverse, so it's a huge letdown. I was also looking forward to the storyline because it seemed like it would require a change from the "CDB finds shelter and has it destroyed" lather-rinse-repeat the show was in. The jury is obviously still out on that one.

Aw hell, just watch the opening of Watchmen if you want to see JDM beaten into a bloody pulp and killed before being given a chance to say anything.

I read the comics and this season is a big disappointment to me. In the comics, the Negan storyline is better than the Governor's so I had a lot of hope for it but they've highlighted parts that didn't work in the comics (Negan's harem), failed to account for cast changes (Carl's age); made some creative choices that don't personally work for me (having Rick capitulate); jerked the audience around (fake deaths and cliffhangers); and lost what made Negan interesting (that he's smart and smart about people).

Yup, Carl was much younger in the comics and completely traumatized by everything he'd had to do in the ZA (which was everything Carl has done in the show plus a bit of what Carol has done). In the comics, when Negan says that he's a budding serial killer, it comes across as perceptive rather than a stupid joke. I had always thought they would skip the "Carl sneaks into the Savior's compound" plot on the show because it makes no fucking sense with a version of Carl who is now taller than Negan but I guess I can never underestimate the showrunners. I had also prayed that they would eliminate the godawful stupid harem because that shit isn't even remotely believable in a comic book, let alone on TV as acted by real people. *sigh* Even with all the terrible parts of this episode, I thought there were some good moments - I like that Spencer is voicing valid criticisms of Rick and other people are giving valid replies (hey, this board can't agree on that stuff either); I like Dwight's relationship with his ex in that I think that it's a curdled O'Henry gift of the magi situation and they still love each other but resent each other for what happened; I liked Eugene and Rosita's dialogue; and the scenes between Negan and Carl make me hopeful that JDM can settle into some of the things that made Negan a good antagonist in the comics.

That's funny, I consider Glenn outliving Nicholas after Glenn saved him to be a personal affront ;)

Out of everybody we met at Woodbury and everyone we met subsequently in the governor's tank camp, Tara is the only survivor? (Is that right?) I would never have pegged her as the survivor of the bunch. That said, I had nothing against her telling the story of the attack on the satellite station. She'd been caught lying to her captors (and really easily) so she needed to admit something truthful (given the character's lack of acting ability, she couldn't plausibly lie) and the attack was a big enough admission that it distracted from the more obvious and important question -- "Where exactly are you from?" If that question had been asked, Tara would have been imprisoned permanently, right? Because Tara wouldn't have been willing to give up the ASZ's location (maybe I'm assuming too much about the character's discretion) and her captors (even her teen savior) would be forced to face it that Tara knew too much about them by Tara's own standards.

I agree 1000%. For the first several seasons Rick always had to make the hard calls and do the hard things to survive (Shane, for all his bluster, never made a single hard call other than once for self-preservation.) I wasn't a huge Richonne fan because I didn't see a ton of romantic chemistry coming from Rick but the two share plenty of it now. I would say, however, that last couple of seasons have shown a bunch of the other characters making decisions (for good or bad) rather than relying on Rick to choose for them and I think it's a healthy direction for the show.

For the past couple of seasons, people have been clamoring for communities that weren't either psychopaths or hopelessly naive. This season we're finally getting those communities. Oceanside was neither evil nor stupid so I enjoyed seeing them. That said, I'm still not entirely sure why Tara immediately ran away from the two who were escorting her to the bridge. Michel's guess is better than anything I came up with but, if that's it, I'm still wondering what tipped her off to the coming murder? (Also, it wouldn't make sense to hide it at Oceanside - they aren't pretending normality like the Governor was.) This version of Negan is stupid and annoying, rather than evil and terrifying. That's a huge problem. It's really weird that the show made the Governor so much more realistic and interesting than in the comics but has done the reverse with Negan. That said, I'm willing to tolerate Negan being the central antagonist for a few season because I don't want to go back to the lather-rinse-repeat cycle of a new psycho each season.

But, once you have the possibility of an internal conspiracy, wouldn't the President be a major potential suspect as well? He's the one who most obviously gained power from the attack.

This show has so many little moments that throw me out of the show that the only things saving it are Kiefer Sutherland's performance and that those moments are so worth bringing to a discussion like this. For example: Hookstratten saying that the success of the mission could decide whether he's Carter or Reagan - I liked the Carter reference and that they then dropped the other shoe by giving them helicopter trouble just like what doomed Carter's rescue attempt. But that she name-checked Reagan, who was never responsible for any successful military action (unless you include Grenada), was pretty funny but believable coming from a Republican congressman. Obviously, Obama was the flip-side but no Republican Congressperson would name-check him as a successful president. That the President has about 5 people that he can trust and they haven't gotten full security clearance for his special advisor yet? That's just freaking stupid. As someone upthread mentioned, that Hookstratten (one of top 3 people left in the Federal Government) met on a park bench with the FBI? Sure ... That the FBI investigating the bombing needed a favor to get security clearance for the Capitol Building schematics???!!!??? totally nuts That the Chief of Staff did not immediately inform the President that Congressman Top Suspect had turned him down for the Speakership? And then didn't immediately apologize to the President (both for failing at his assigned task and for failing to inform him)!?! ... By the way, is it going to be a recurring joke that everyone the chief of staff asks to accept an incredibly prestigious job rejects it? I did, however, find it believable that the President would go to meet the commander's coffin when it returned. I have seen photos of pretty much every President doing that on a semi-regular basis and that particular SEAL earned himself several medals on a mission of supreme importance to the country and the President.

Sure, the Richonne stuff last season was great but everyone who doesn't read the comics should know that, if Michonne were still available, she partnered up with Ezekiel in the comics. Y'all can now picture what THOSE scenes would have been like ;)

I hear you on that. That big cast is part of why I think this show is sooo much better to binge watch than to watch once a week. For example, I remember a ton of people hating the two Abraham-centric episodes where he discovers that Eugene was lying to him because they wanted the focus to be more on the part where Rick is planning for Grady but I rewatched them this weekend and I really, really liked them (and it's the little moments with the Abe/Rosita/Tara/Glenn/Maggie group that I liked most). Or, if Glenn hadn't fallen off a dumpster, people might not be so sick of Morgan because of the timing of the cheesemaker episode. I love y'all on this board but I am probably going to follow through on what I said at the end of last season and, now that the cliffhanger is resolved, opt out of weekly viewing.

God, I hope you're right about skipping the harem. They couldn't do Glenn's death the same way because too many people have read the comics for it to be shocking and gut wrenching if the lead up was the same. So, I sympathize with them in making it two deaths. I just wish they had done it last year and didn't start dumpstergate (which spoiled a bunch of otherwise great episodes that aired immediately after the fake-out).

Yeah, that's a huge part of why I think they'll keep it but it's sooooo dumb and comic-booky and not really in character for Negan either. Except for that harem, he's brutal but smart and principled. That thing was bound to create a huge number of enemies among his own troops - no one stands for that treatment forever and that character was written as smart enough to realize it. With the changes they made to the Governor, I hoped they might make similar improvements to Negan and ground him a little more in planet Earth but ...

Agreed. And Sunday night, they pretty much all killed it. Everyone showed grief and shock differently and all within character.

I liked the dynamic between the two characters in the comics but hated the plotline because it was so unbelievable that Negan would return Carl. Once Negan had Carl and they had something of a bond, the obvious play was to keep Carl at his compound and raise him as an adopted son just letting Rick visit him once a week. That and the harem were the two things I disliked about the Negan storyline through Total War (I haven't read much past that). I am praying that they don't do either one because I want Negan to be smart, not an idiot. Some clues dropped last season, however, make me think that they are going to do the harem (blech).

RV says to Negan "Pot, meet kettle."