rab01

MightySparrow - I think you and I were in complete agreement on this at the start of this thread. I have to say now that I can't ship her with Daryl anymore because the man doesn't bathe. I cannot picture Michonne being OK with his standards of personal hygiene. Also, we've now gotten a few scenes where Rick has made her laugh - admittedly, laughing AT him, rather than WITH him but it's probably enough. Bottom line, yes she;s too good for him but I can't think of any man in the cast who is better than Rick at the moment so beggars can't always be choosers (even if they look like Danai). As to the issue with Michonne-centric episodes -- is anyone here old enough to remember the show Thirtysomething? The writers on that show said that the hardest character to write for was Hope because she was "perfect" and just went about her business with a maternal glow. That's Michonne's problem - she is the sanest member of the group and, as she said to Tyreese, she always has her shit together. It means that other characters are easier for the writer's room to play with in separate episodes.

Kirkman already put down his marker for who dies -- Glenn died in the comics. But, the show has been willing to switch up character deaths over the years and Schrodinger's Glenn earlier this season would make his death here even more distasteful so I think he's no longer a sure thing. After Glenn, the two easiest to kill from Kirkman's perspective are Daryl and Abe because neither contribute to HIS future plot lines. Having seen Gimple on Talking Dead on Sunday, I don't think he wants to kill Daryl. In my head, I've already said goodbye to Abe and I won't really care if it's someone else (unless they punk out really hard and it's the only Alexandrian in the circle). For Michonne fans, however, there is no way she is dying if Kirkman has any say in it whatsoever. She is his favorite character.

Eh, maybe they filmed a couple versions (which I've also heard happening) or maybe they will film it in a month and just to tight shots so that we don't see the whole crowd of Saviors circling them in the dark. It's a night shot so making the scenes match is pretty easy. Which is easier - keeping secrecy for an extra 6 months or just shooting it later and processing it to match?

Huh, so the Hollywood Reporter and Alan Sepinwall are both dropping their weekly critical reviews of The Walking Dead. I wonder how many more reviewers the show lost last night.

I'm gonna stick with my promise to WalnutQueen to not hate-watch FtWD and then post here. I am gonna record the show and watch a few episodes at a time. All indications are that they are planning to do a floating "farm" season. Much easier to enjoy an episode of not much happening if there's another 2-3 queued up on the DVR. I do hope, however, that the botox has worn off on the lady playing Madison so that her face can register emotion again. She's going to be the Rick and I'd like to be able to root for her. (ok, that's my last slam for the season)

Hah! The joke's on me. I should have realized that Flight 462 would be exactly like FtWD. A few boring scenes followed by a semi-decent build of tension and then not much interesting happens before it ends. For all of us who expected to see a full-on zombie horde inside a plane, we got a couple zombies and then an off-screen landing. I honestly thought that the only survivors would be a passenger or two hiding in the lavatory and the pilots. Stupid me.

I tried one episode of Z-Nation (the one with zombie George RR Martin) and it was a little too cheesy for me without being actively funny -- it sort of fell in an uncanny valley between Shaun of the Dead and The Walking Dead.

I feel like Hardwick did his job last night. He brought up the fan outrage over the cliffhanger and asked the creators about it. That he prefaced the question with some remarks defending cliffhangers is perfectly fine - whether he honestly believes it, is paid to say it, or whatever. He doesn't need to agree with me, he just needs to raise the issue on-air.

Ohwell - Yes. Jesus lives in Hilltop so there was no reason for him to be in these episodes.

It's a calculated risk. Some fans like it; I'd guess that more don't (but that's just a guess). But more than ratings, I think it was bad story telling especially when they pulled this cliffhanger crap earlier with Glenn under the dumpster. As for ratings, no show can stay on top forever so this fade-to-black and Glenn under the dumpster are more likely to be remembered as wearing water skies than being crowning glories. One sign of that is that some reviewers are now dropping their coverage of the show.

I thought I saw him and that they took pains to show everybody. But, it was interesting that they took a moment to pass off the bullet plans so that everyone would know that he doesn't have to survive. Plot-wise, the two that make the most sense are Glenn and Abraham. Big enough characters to be believable targets, not necessary to future comics plots, and not named Daryl. The one thing that makes me doubt that it will be Glenn in the end is that I can't believe that they want to deal with fan reaction when everyone realizes that the show made us wait weeks to confirm that he wasn't dead and then months to confirm he was dead. "Schrodinger's Glenn" is a bad joke, not a good way to tell a story. (Also, I will go to my grave saying that the audience would like Morgan more if the cheesemaker episode had happened after Glenn was proved alive, rather than immediately after his fake death.)

Yeah, if the Saviors had been a smaller group but the first encounter had ended up with Daryl, Abe and Sasha dead, rather than the reverse, what would Rick have done to them after he finally caught up to them? Shot them all to be safe would be my guess. Also, if they hadn't struck a deal with Hilltop, Rick said to the others that they'd just take what they needed (similar to his attitude about ASZ). Sure, Negan is the villain and Rick is the hero. Gimple and Kirkman saying that they're two sides of the same coin isn't undermining that. It's just that the gulf between hero and villain isn't quite so wide in the ZA.

I thought that Kirkman said the opposite "you don't have to call me Mr ..." JDM sounded so out of place when he did it that I thought he was actually covering for having blanked on Kirkman's first name ;) My personal theory is that the cliffhanger is Gimple's idea, which is why he had a long-winded defense of it and looked so scared when addressing the fan reaction to it. I think he was getting messages about fan reaction before Hardwick brought it up and was having an "oh shit" realization. Kirkman was much more casual and general about his defense of it - like, "It's not my problem but I'm gonna stick up for the guys who did it" kind of thing. (Also, of course, Kirkman always has more of a "who gives a shit" vibe anyway.)

I've seen a lot of people blaming the show's adherence to the comics for their problems with this season and I have to voice an unpopular opinion -- it ain't the comics' fault because the stuff that has most annoyed people this time is not in the comics: In the comics, 1) They don't lead a walker parade out of a quarry 2) Glen doesn't trust an idiot to lead them home 3) Glen doesn't almost die for 6 issues while miraculously hiding under a dumpster 4) Morgan doesn't meet a cheesemaker and he isn't a pacifist 5) Nobody like Daryl gets ambushed three separate times by the same guy 6) Negan's resources aren't made to appear functionally infinite 7) When Negan kills someone, the victim is revealed in the same scene

leaving aside the fucking bullshit cliffhanger for a moment ... I'd like to mention a nice character beat -- Abraham sitting up straighter when Negan got to him. It wasn't bravado - he was trying to save Sasha by sacrificing himself. As for the saviors blocking the RV -- it wasn't that they knew when the R would leave Alexandria, it's that they knew to block all the roads to Hilltop. The outpost lost was one that dealt with Hilltop so the saviors knew that it had something to do with them. The point of the cat-and-mouse stop was a job interview/recruitment so Negan isn't automatically looking to kill the strongest ...

What the fuck is wrong with this show? How could they not learn from the Glen fiasco? A season ending cliffhanger? That's just bullshit. They didn't show the last few people on the bat and he wasn't switching people on each word. It could be anyone other than Rick or Carl. I'm skipping next season's opener and I'll just binge watch the season later. If they think I'm gonna care who died after waiting the summer, they are so so wrong.

I love this analogy. It doesn't quite work because Mack is a full-Bird Colonel,* not a Sergeant, but it's the only dynamic that makes Coulson's command structure decisions not insane. On this line of reasoning, Daisy gets to run this Op because it's not all that important. Also, in this line of reasoning, Mack and May can probably order Daisy to stand down any time they feel that her decisions are too stupid. In this instance, I'm not sure that Daisy's decisions were the wrong ones and SHIELD really has to allow their agents a lot of operational ... flexibility ... so I'm not sure how pissed I would need Coulson to be. * You don't give Sergeants command (even temporary) of the entire army.

teenj12 - I don't have a problem with the character of Daisy. I have a problem with the way other characters treat her (e.g. Coulson treating her like a special snowflake) and I have problems with the actress (she's pretty but she doesn't make me feel like she has any interior take on the character - in other words, she's a little blank). In the current crew, I think most of the actors are transcending their material a bit (except for Lincoln) but with Ward and Daisy, we get a little bit less than what the writers give them. The only "characters" I currently dislike are Coulson (the description above of a middle manager promoted above his pay grade is perfect) and May (she's grim, self-righteous and preachy while also sometimes being hypocritical). Since I've liked both of them in the past, I hope they get written differently in the future. One last thing, Lincoln would be improved by making him the person who regularly deals with new inhumans. It was supposedly his job for years in the hidden village so why not have him do it again? Make Daisy be the one who has to make hard-headed calls about whether the new people will make it or need to be put down. That would give them some plot-based conflicts and stuff to actually agonize about rather than mouthing crappy set-speeches.

Because in the TV show, as opposed to the movies, it is shown as being an American operation that appeared to interact with foreign agencies on an "ad-hoc friendly cooperation basis" rather than on an "official this is our turf basis." Also, the war with hydra in the TV show appeared to have them being raked over the coals by the American Government and treated as an American problem. But you are right that the movies had a world counsel, at least with respect to the Avengers initiative. I didn't get from the movies that, if the world counsel and the US disagreed, SHIELD would answer to the counsel but that might have been the case. In any event, my issue is still their. Beforehand, it's a respected organization with a specific place in society; now what is it?

I should mention that I liked this episode and I generally have enjoyed the show since they stopped treading water waiting for Winter Soldier. kennyab --- OK, cool it's "to deal with alien/inhuman crises." I agree with that. But ... What does that mean? Protect inhumans from being persecuted? Protect people from inhumans? Protect the U.S.'s interest in using inhumans as a military resource? Prevent other countries from doing the same? Prevent the U.S. from using inhumans as a military resource? Horde alien technology? Make alien technology available to the world for industrial development? Make it available only to the U.S. military? Act "ethically" in each crisis as it comes up? Back when SHIELD was a big government agency on par with the CIA and NSA, it made sense because SHIELD acted within the government structure and you could have some faith that you were working for the U.S. government and its policy as set by the elected civilians. It became unmoored from that while fighting Hydra. During that fight, it's actions still made sense. Now, when SHIELD is working as a semi-recognized government agency without structures around it? It needs to figure out what they are trying to accomplish and why. That would also help the writers and the plots -- what are SHIELD's goals? Not "beat Hydra" or "capture Malick" or "stop the watchdogs." What does SHIELD want to happen with inhumans? (assuming that inhumans are SHIELD's primary jurisdiction) And are those goals also our government's goals? I bet that some of the main characters would disagree about those goals - no matter what they were. I'm not saying that I have a problem with SHIELD as the heroes of the story or with most of their actions. I also agree that when an organization targets and destroys one of your facilities, it would certainly move them up the most wanted list. But, the show is giving us too many "complete the mission" speeches without telling us what that overarching mission is and without allowing the characters to question it either. --- and I think that's because the writers don't know.

AngelaHunter - I think that's exactly right; Rosita might not have gone if Abe hadn't volunteered. Abe was a shit in every aspect of his dealings with Rosita. But, in Sasha's defense, she didn't see the conversation so all she knows is that Abe broke it off completely. As an aside, I wonder whether Abe can function without a woman "to fight for." As soon as his wife died, he was ready to eat a bullet. When he fell out of love with Rosita, he was screaming at walkers from 6 inches away. He doesn't value his own life enough to protect it; he needs a "mission" or a "damsel in distress." (Hell, he might not have fallen in love with Sasha if she weren't near suicidal last season.) One thing I liked about the plot of this episode (and yeah, it's slim pickings) is that the show made it clear that Alexandria is preparing for all out war and defense in depth and that Maggie is leading the planning for it. Rick's pretty good under fire but planning beforehand has never been his strong suit. I like that the show spent some time and bits of dialogue to prep us for them possibly having a few tricks up their sleeves when shit goes down.

Kennyab - I agree that's what the show wants to tell us; hey, they are the heroes after all. But, you have to admit that Kitlee's list of destruction caused by SHIELD and its assets is pretty large and you could add another dozen items to that list. To go back to Russia, however, an armed raid on a military base on Russian soil is a HUGE deal. Any government agency, no matter how off the books, should need approval before acting, not forgiveness afterwards. It ends with the President in a room with the head of Russia because of the involvement of two SHIELD agents -- in other words an international incident approaching the level of the Cuban Missile Crisis except entirely secret and this was the "good" outcome of the intervention. What if SHIELD had failed? (Also, Coulson was willing to damage US/Russian relations over those two agents ... what mission did that serve again?) Malick's inhuman sanctuary can still happen; it just won't be announced in a formal meeting between world leaders. He'll just set up deals with each government that wants to let him help. A single compound, even under his control, that is formally "known" to the US is actually probably safer to the US than will be the real situation going forward. ... Anyway, that's all just fanwankery on my part as to which option was safer or better. It doesn't change the real issue -- what is SHIELD's mission? And what part of that mission is Lincoln supposed to place above his personal safety and the interests of of his family friends and those he loves? What or who is the sacrifice for?

I've only read through one book past the Negan story line so I can't speak to what's happening in it right now but no, I don't get that feeling from the comics. Part of that is because the characters are more sad, desperate and unhinged than they are on the show. So, a LOT of the earlier comics involved people doing or having to endure terrible things because people snap under the weight of the ZA. There is less often a reason to stare at people's actions and to say "well that's stupid." Also, there are fewer "big bads" in the comics, with the Governor and Negan head-and-shoulders above all the others. Comics-Governor was just a stereotypical pirate-king type with long hair who cuts off Rick's hand at first meeting him. Comics-Negan is as brutal as comics-Governor but is much smarter and very intentional and deliberate in how he uses violence. Those differences made the conflict with comics-Negan much different from the fight with the comics-Governor. (To me, the Show borrowed a lot of Negan's character in their creation of the Governor -- the show-Governor is much more rational and plausible as a real-world person than the comics-Governor -- which makes me a little worried for the Negan storyline to come.)

I can sympathize with everyone who's cheering pairing down the cast to its core to focus more on the main characters but .... how about we pair down the boring characters and bad actors and change our definition of core characters instead? Also, Monty's recap is exactly right about this: "I feel like I watch this show pretty closely, and I'm not sure what that mission is." What the hell is SHIELD's purpose and who elected them to do it? Specifically, why was it their job to prevent a coup in Russia? Were they right to do so? Was that in the U.S.'s best interest? Russia's? The world's somehow? Is it just because Malick was for it? Seriously, why the hell were they threatening US/Russian relations to run in to take sides in an internal political struggle? Maybe they were on the side of the angels but I can't remember the show telling me why. Back around to this episode, what the hell is Lincoln supposedly pledging loyalty to? Why does he have to fight for Coulson's fatherly approval when Daisy is begged to stay after she spies on SHIELD? Back to the cast - Yeah it's a little big but they should use that to make the characters really at risk and force the exit of above the line stars whose characters aren't entertaining -- I am still not feeling Daisy and I'm getting tired of Coulson too. I've rarely thought that his character really worked except for a brief period immediately after the fall of Hydra. And, of course, Lincoln is boring blank slate. With Daisy, I think it's the actress; with Coulson, I think its the writing but I think the show would be stronger without all three (and with Bobby and Hunter back).

I saw that as an explanation for why she shut the window shade on him -- acting out due to guilt. Unfortunately, I still think they are planning to add WHUT to the cast. He is so perfectly dull and unformed that he will fit into FtWD perfectly.