ILoveReading

There was a picture of Jared and Jensen on the bridge and Jim captioned it 'No words necessary' or something like that. The two sides started fighting and Jim blocked some more rabid destiel fan and liked a few wincest ones that that caused more fighting and he just deleted it. He didn't help the situation because desties accused him of taking sides Its too bad because it was a nice photo. Its why I'm glad cons aren't happening right now.

Except that Ruby was far more manipulating and controlling then Dean ever was. Dean even told Sam, keep your secrets just stop lying. Sam's response was to lie. Dean wasn't treating Sam like a kid brother here. He was treating Sam like a person who Dean knew was hiding things. Dean also gave Ruby repeated chances. So Sam saying Ruby didn't make him feel like like a kid is Sam refusing to acknowledge just how controlling Ruby was and that is why IMO, Sam didn't take responsibility. Ruby made Sam feel like he was in control. Dean actually gave Sam control. So why exactly did Sam need to get away from Dean? Because Ruby was his drug dealer and Dean was the guy trying to hold Sam responsible for his actions. Sam didn't like that, so Sam telling he needed to get away because Ruby didn't treat him like a child, when she did exactly that was Sam blaming Dean.

But what is so often forgotten about this episode is that Sam himself lied and snuck out in the middle of the night with a vague note. Given Sam's mental state and that Sam couldn't tell reality from fantasy Dean isn't wrong to think that maybe Satan took Sam for a joy ride again. This is a fundamental flaw in this storyline. Under no circumstances should Sam be trusted as back up when those hallucinations could over take him at any moment. He was a danger to himself and others and almost shot Dean. He should never be given a gun and used as back up. And Sam promptly took off in the middle of the night with nothing more than a note. Dean can't be Sam's stone number 1 if Sam doesn't want him to be. Sam also has admit he needs help and lean on Dean. He often doesn't. That's why that whole speech doesnt' work for me. It felt like Sam thought Dean meant use the pain, not Dean himself. Sam needs to take responsibility for his own actions. If he wants to be trusted he has to demonstrate that he came be. Which is why this.. Is once again, the show getting it backwards. Sam is the one running off in the middle of the night and not giving Dean the whole story. If Sam was honest from the start and told Dean about the hunt, then the burden of trust is on Dean. Dean can't hunt with his leg but Sam could have agreed to check ins, not because Dean is treating him like a child, but because in this situation they were necessary. With Sam's hallucinations, Dean's being slow to trust Sam can handle this isn't about not having faith in Sam, its about the reality of the situation. Sam can't be trusted. The burden is 100% on Sam in this situation and if Sam told Dean right from the start then maybe when Sam defended Amy, Dean might have been in a better position to trust him. Trust is a two way street, but not necessarily always equal. Sam is in a compromised position. He had to prove he can be trusted. Dean shouldn't be automatically the bad guy because he questions Sam here. Especially when Sam is sneaking off . He didn't really when he threw Amy in Dean's face, not once but twice. Also the show situation started because Sam snuck out in the middle of the night in the first place. Sam doesn't have the moral high ground her when he was the one that lied first. Its why Sam is Hypocrite number 1. He needs to take responsibility for his own actions.

Only because Dean was bossy and forced Sam to go to Ruby. Sam's own words where he had to go to Ruby to get away from Dean. Sam is esentially saying that its only his fault because someone (Dean) made him do it in the first place. The show. After all Sam was doing to save people because the knife kills the victim. (I guess exorcisms stopped existing since Dean wasn't allowed to make that argument. Then there was the whole white washing of how Ruby was only trying to get Sam ready to host Lucifer, making her motives pure. The show even made Dean participate and endorse the demon blood drinking or once again that mean he had no trust or faith in Sam. The entire plan was framed that if Dean objected it meant he was treating Sam like a child. The show never held Sam responsible for that. They gave Sam and Cas endless dialogue about how Dean was getting worse and how he was losing it or snapping, But they never showed Dean really doing these things anything worse than Sam and Cas were doing. The show made sure to justify Sam's use of the book. I still remember Sam lecturing Dean during 11.1 about how they have to save everyone. Since when? Justified. After all Dean needed a very special lesson about respecting others choices but it was okay for Sam to make a choice for Dean and to lie to him about it. Sam was never called out. He even got a promotion to leader of the hunters because it wasnt' that he joined that was the mistake, it was that he didn't take charge and he was promoted to leader of Team Free will. According to Dabb that was because Dean held him back and that position should have been his all along. This was never really addressed. From what I saw it was a lot of Sam F'ing Winchester shot God. In fact, I remember Dean being the bad guy here because he was upset about Mary's death and Cas turned himself into the victim, and Sam never took responsibility for going along with Dean and locking Jack up. That just felll back on Dean. Show has a long history of trying to give Sam excuses and justifications for his bad decisions or they just ignore it, but it rarely does so for Dean. When Sam does something controversial, they bend over backwards to lesson the blow. Dean tricking Sam with Gadreel, was a poor decision but never once did Dean say that John made him do it because he made Dean responsible for Sam. Of course when it came time for Sam to take on the mark it was framed as as sacrifice, despite Sam's history making him the worse person to take it on.

This is 100% why I lost any respect for Sam as a character. Its never poor Sammy's fault. He only does bad things/makes poor decisions because someone else made him. Imagine if Dean had Martin kill Amy, but Amy killed him instead, Sam would have lectured Dean about how he should at least do his own dirty work and how he shouldn't have used a clearly unstable person to do it. I don't know if Sam was jealous, but more that Benny was a walking, talking reminder of Sam's failure. Since, as established above, Sam looks for external factors for his mistakes, it was easier for Sam to blame Benny and eliminate that reminder rather than just admit that weakness to Dean. I mean even in Sam's big confession he put the burden of trust on Dean's shoulders. "What happen when YOU decide I can't be trusted." No Sam. Dean didn't wake up and decided not to trust you. You earned that lack of trust. And each time Sam made Dean prove that he trusted Sam. It was always backwards, and we saw that with the trials. Sam lies again, but Dean has to prove that he trusts Sam to succeed. That line should have been, |"How many times have I given you reasons not to trust me, and you had to turn to an angel and a vampire rather than your own brother." It took Lucifer, of all people to show Sam the truth. Even then Sam made it about Sam. "I'll never forgive myself' Maybe that would have had more an impact if I could think of a single scene that Sam felt guilty. That turned out to be Cas.

I disagree. Because from the flashbacks we got Sam and Dean weren't really all that close. Sam left at 18 and never looked back and that included leaving Dean. We know that Dean saw protecting Sam as his job. He was brainwashed since he was 4 that putting Sam first was his only purpose in life. Plus, if Chuck's influence started at The Pilot that means that Dean never actually sold his soul for Sam or any of the other things that happened. That was all Chuck, supposedly. They romanticize the brothers bond, but it falls apart if you (general you) really analyze it. It's all surface. I mean whenever they lost their filters did they ever have anything nice to say about each other? The show is pretending that Sam was happy to see Dean when he showed up at Stanford (he wasn't). Sam chose Jessica. He only went on the road with Dean to get revenge for Jessica's death. Then is the Osiris episode we learn that Sam does hold some resentment towards Dean and it seems like he feels Dean dragged him back in the life. Not that he chose it or Dean. Whether Dean realized it or not he actually flourished without Sam. At Sonny's he was excelling in school and he had friends and was a champion wrestler. With Sam he was just Sam's inferior brother. Dean did fine when Sam was at college. He even managed to find a bit of happiness with Lisa and Ben. He held a job, he had friends, and he was a good father and boyfriend that Lisa and Ben genuinely loved him. Isn't that how the show justified not telling Dean about Sam. That he was happy? Sam, on the other hand falls apart without Dean. He never fit in a college and couldn't be honest with himself or anyone else in his life. He fell in with a demon, he fell apart and ran away. But when he was with Dean, especially in the later years, Sam seemed annoyed with everything Dean said and did. I don't understand why Jared chose to play it that way. In my opinion Sam often came across as resenting Dean. This to me is why the finale feels forced. It doesn't actually address the complicated relationship they actually had. Like everything Dabb did, he wasted the entire season and wrote a piece of fanfic as the ending. So I feel then that the brotherly bond can be summed up. Sam needs Dean. He doesn't want him. (As evidenced by how miserable Sam seemed even though he had the normal life he wanted). Dean wants Sam. He doesn't need him. (As evidenced by Dean finding some peace in knowing his family was in heaven with him and being happy driving around even if he missed Sam).

No one is ever going to convince me it wasn't a rule in the writers room that Sam always had to be more. Both on the positive side (stronger, faster, smarter, etc) and on the negative (had to had have more bad things, be seen as the one who had it worse, etc). I mean Dean goes to hell for 40 years, so Sam had to go for 100. So I do believe they went into the finale with the mindset that Sam will suffer much worse because Dean got to go to Heaven while Sam had to carry on without him. But as usual Jensen made it about Dean, and Dean was pretty much what everyone talked about after the finale. I don't think the writers intended that. My big issue is they they took this attitude into the finale. It's not Dean's death I had the big issue with. Even as far back as s 1 part of me felt Deans' story would end tragically. The fight with the vampires was Red Meat all over again. Sam took out 4 or 5 of them, saved Dean twice and did it all with a concussion and Dean struggled to take out 1 and was killed. I didn't get the impression anything more than a week or two had passed since ep 19. Dabb isn't subtle. If he wanted us to know a lot of time passed, he would have made it obvious. With the epic mess of the Chuck storyline and the shows refusal to even give Sam one line of dialogue to acknowledge Dean, does he have a legacy or not. Jensen specifically talked about this. He was worried about Dean's legacy. I've been doing a season 2 rewatch and I find myself at times, asking did this really happen? Am I really supposed to believe that Chuck started writing the story when Dean showed up at Sam's and he stopped when Sam talked Dean out of killing him in 20.17? Then the finale doesn't make sense because the brothers were never really connected or had the bond because Chuck wrote that. Chuck said Cas always rebelled but 18 tells us it was Deans' influence. But if Chuck wrote that than that means Cas rebelled because of Chuck's writing. Covid restrictions aren't' really an excuse because they had months to make it work. If they couldn't' they had months to rework the finale. If they wanted a tragic ending for Dean, they could have had Sam call the ambulance and had Dean give 'if I don't make it speech' but after the commericals we find out Dean did but he ended up paralyzed. They could have then had the montage of Dean becoming a Sonny/Bobby like character and Sam hunting with Eileen. There are ways around this if the actress wasn't available. IMO, the finale season would have been better if they actually did what they said. Focused on the characters rather than the the cosmic stuff. Go small. Imagine if they wrapped up the Chuck stuff in ep 10 rather than 19 and used the back half to explore who the characters were/what they wanted without the obligations. There is nothing wrong with being a hunter and I don;t get this notion that Dean had to stop hunting to be happy. He loved it before all the cosmic stuff happened. I think Dean would have been able to let go of Sam if Sam was still in the bunker but stopped actively hunting to take a more Bobby like role. I go back and forth on whether I want a fix it season. One one hand I really want Jensen to be in charge of Dean's fate, but on the other given the mess of ep 18 that puts any reboot in between a rock and hard place. Because if you do a reset, it erases Cas's confession or if there is something like this is Deans' coma dream and Dean doesn't return Cas's feelings then it all the drama and controversy would restart.

I think its even longer for the SPN writers I mean that Megan Fitzmartin (Dabb's assistant) wrote, 'a beat because I broke my own heart' and Berens writing in badass Sam fights vampires looking like a half cowboy, half Christ figure. Professional they aren't.

I missed this. I need to go back and rewatch.

Dean's been off script since Jensen was cast in the role. I can't and won't believe Chuck ever controlled him, when the writers literally and metaphorically couldn't. Screw that.

Here is why I don't believe anything more than a week or two passed. For the simple reason that its Dabb. He's not subtle, he uses a sledgehammer. Carry On, Jack in the Box, Destiny's Child, Despair, Inherit the Earth. All literal. If Dabb wanted fans to know that years had passed it would have been put up on the screen. Jared said different things to different people. So I think we have to take anything he said her with a grain of salt. In the opening montage, there was a camouflage jacket in Dean's room, so I saw spec they might be enlistment papers, as a reference to Jensen's new role.

Apparently Robert Wisdom was filming something else in the area and dropped by to visit.

Dabb would have actually wrote less than 1700 words. Because Jared and Jensen have both said they pretty much improvised the dialogue in the barn so Dabb doesn't even get credit for that.

This whole situation is a huge mess and sadly, I can pinpoint who the scapegoat is going to end up being.

Its not so much one specific thing, but it goes way back to the start of the show. There used to be a comic book series that Dabb wrote. Sam was the super special child would could do everything, while Dean was portrayed as a dummy who took up space. There was this one scene were they had too shoot this ghost, and Dean whined and complained the rifle was too heavy than Special Sammy picked it up and with the aim of marksman hit the ghost right out. Dabb's first ep was Yellow Fever where he promptly labelled Dean as a dick and made fun of his hell time and had Bobby and Sam act like Dean was annoying them. If you look at his writing there is a history of protraying Dean as inferior. There is also the comments like Sam is a natural born leader and should have been all along but Dean held him back, or that Dean needed to be off screen to give other characters breathing room.

IIRC, he never said that Sam was bi but that he'd be okay playing him that way if the writers decided to go in that direction.

I feel like Jensen is throwing a lot of shade here. (This was from before the finale.)

I don't have a problem with Dean dying. Deans' story having a tragic ending almost seemed inevitable. My problem was this hunt and in this way. It was the FIRST hunt after God supposedly stopped writing their story. What kind of message does that send about Dean and his legacy as a hunter? To make matter worse the show reduced hunting to an after school special that parents can let their teens participate in. Newbies who never hunted before lasted longer than Dean, supposedly. And why vamps. Even more reduced to milk run hunts for newbies. Why not put a little bit of effort into find a monster the guys never heard of before and didn't have all knowledge. That way if its a tragic accident it doesn't' stick out like a sore thumb. Jensen nailed Dean's death scene, but the length bugged a bit. It reminds me when during s9 when he was stabbed and Jensen shortened the speech. It was also kind of annoying that that they had no budget for fake blood,because Dean should have been coughing it up. But aside from that I didn't like that Sam couldn't see past his own pain long enough to see how much physical pain Dean was in, and Dean should never had to tell Sam to tell him it was okay to let go. Sam should have done that on his own. Sam never had to tell his son that. His son just knew. I know that Dean's hunter funeral was probably one of the things we lost because of Covid, but there were ways to work around it. Give Sam some dialogue before the music cue. Have Sam put a a stack of thick papers on Dean's body and say that was list off all the people they saved. (F Dabb, and his it was all Chuck). Have Jody and Donna on zoom saying they were sorry they were stuck in whereever and they were sorry about Dean. Have Garth call Sam. We've seen Jensen do ADR from Austin. I think Brianna lives in Vancouver so she wouln't have had to quarantine. Heck, hire a local Vancouver actor to play random Dean hunter friend number 1. Or when Sam was with his son, instead of them studying so Sam with a photo album and articles about the people they saved so little Dean knows why he was named after his uncle. Or even have Jared to the voice over for the ep and we find out in the end he's telling his son about his amazing uncle. I agree with @Bergamot It seems like Dean was forgotten by everyone but Sam.

Jensen's cameo on The Buddy Games. He plays a character named Jack (why 😞 ) but he' going to kill it on The Boys. This isn't Dean, that's for sure. Although 2 major Supernatural shoutouts.

The whole bottle if Cas gets a significant mention

https://www.youtube.com/embed/4S-43_0UWzA Another sneak peek of the pie scene. I've seen spec that this could be Sam hallcinating since Dean is dead and he can't cope. It would explain why Dean says to keep living and honor the sacrifice when talking about Cas.

https://ew.com/tv/supernatural-jared-padalecki-final-season-interview/?utm_campaign=entertainmentweekly_entertainmentweekly&utm_content=manual&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_term=5fb697e4a9f908000141c472 Jared talking about the finale. No real spoilers., except he describes it as: ""wonderfully tragic" and "wonderfully optimistic."

Not surprised that the tear and the flinch was all Jensen.

I liked Man in the Wilderness from s8

IMO, this is where Dabb truly doesn't understand what this series is about and what made it so special. A perfect life wasn't just apple pie and a white picket fence. Dean has said often and repeatedly, that his peace was helping people. In season 1 before all the loss and cosmic stuff started, Dean truly enjoyed the hunt. One thing the early seasons did so well was the way the MOTW cases paralleled the brothers. Its why I will never but Bugs on a worst episode list. It gave us so much insight into the way the brothers saw each other. How much better could this season have been if Dabb had actually gone small and intimate, and used the final season to explore the Winchesters as individuals and what their lives would be like without the cosmic dieties pulling the strings, rather than leaving it to the last 42 minutes. Leave Jack dead, and give Shoshanna regular status and build the relationship between Sam and Eileen. Because right now it looks like two strangers trying to pretend they have feelings for each other. Turn Cas human be having him sacrifice his grace to defeat the big bad last season. Rebuild Cas and Dean's relationship. Then have them do MOTW cases and use those to parallel the issues the brothers might have. Bring up plot threads that were dropped. The final season could really have been good, even with little effort from Dabb, if he understood what the show was really about rather than just a lazy, copy and paste of s11.