Temperance

Josh seems prior to the party looks completely bored about the gender of the baby. Like he's see it all before, every pregnancy results in a girl or a boy and he's sure it will be one. I can understand his attitude. So Priscilla looks to me to be at least six months pregnant during this episode or five and half at the very least. Since her baby was born last week, it means the episode was filmed around August or July, maybe even September so after Jill's wedding. David is very clingy.Unless he's holding a child he's breathing on Priscilla's neck. That would annoy me. I couldn't tell if her pregnancy test was much later than the gender reveal or shot at the same time. I'm actually surprised they aren't pregnant. I thought she was, by average non-fundie people standards their family is a good size and progressing at a good rate, but by fundie standards their family or by people who want a lot of kids standards it's slow. (After all I do think a lot of their desire for more kids is spawned by his job, their deal with TLC and media attention. Three or four years from now Jill or Jessa may have three kids and counting and Josh and Anna may be less interesting television.( Example of my fundie-lite friends at least three couples had four children by their sixth anniversary, which Josh and Anna just celebrated. ) I give some credit to Josh to trying to get along with their in-laws. He seemed to me, to find David a little much or annoying at times, but I think he realizes how much her sister means to Anna and was trying to make things smooth for Anna. That's not exactly a skill he learned from his parents (imo), but it's shows some growth. I think he's likes having the kids, but is bored by babies and pregnancy. Also I agree he may be worried about money. Priscilla didn't bother me that much. The baby tone was annoying, but not nearly as bad as Jichelle's. What she had to say wasn't earth shattering, but it was on-topic and inoffensive which I think is what she was going for. She may also be a little more nervous being on television.

I don't why I'm watching this show considering I don't like it. My favorites are Evelin and Justin, but even they were disappointing. I think Justin likes Evelin for her optimism, positive attitude and faith in him. I still think there is more going on in Justin's family than we know. I don't know what it is, but a common theme among people with dysfunctional families is the ability to look good on the outside, and in some ways wrap it in a bow so no one knows about it. At least Justin has the courage to admit his family stinks and walk away. I was horrified by the way Danny treated Amy saying he's not sure what his dad's going to say. I mean he'll still love her, but no f** off dad really? I mean if dad says something mean, you need to stand for her. I liked the ice skating date, but the brother coming in was annoying. I get the feeling Danny either lacks a backbone to stand up for himself or he's uncomfortable cuddling or both. I think everyone on this show needs a metaphoric backbone. I don't really like anyone else much other than Justin, Evelin, and Amy. I still think Brett is more sinister than he seems. Last season I didn't want Mike and Aziza to get married and I had my doubts about Alan and Kirlyam, and now after the re-union show they seem like solid couples. I wonder if this season anyone will have the guts not to get married.

Emily should date Derek Hough's character.

I don't think that's quite the same. It was expected that a courting couple needed a chaperone and the other children were a little. I think the point was Jessa and Ben were trying out their child raising skills for future children. If Jana had been more in the group, she might have been tempted or expected to pull some of the weight and responsibility for the little children. Her presence was acknowledged when they pulled the camera around. They didn't totally edit her out or say she wasn't there. I think the reason for the changes is in the go-cart example the Duggars felt it was in keeping with their values to have the courting couple always chaperoned. In this episode it's not consistent with their values to acknowledge that three children are too much to handle for their parents. This is especially true given the fact that they believe birth control is evil and they are constantly looking for more. My opinion is if you're struggling with the kids you have, you should think first about having another baby. Their fans need to believe Josh and Anna can handle as many babies as they can have and to admit they need help actually caring for them contradicts that.

I liked Juliette and Avery the best. I also loved Juliette with Emily. Emily does so much for Juliette and I thought this episode really showcased the strength of Juliette's team. If Juliette's team looked stronger than ever, then Rayna's team looked worse. Bucky always seemed to be a good influence on Rayna, like Glenn with Juliette, but tonight he was a bad influence telling her she should do the RS piece. I also refuse to believe it's the only time they could do the article was that weekend. Isn't Rolling Stone famous for doing on-tour interviews where they travel with the band? Rayna should have found a way to reschedule and Bucky should have helped. Here's an idea if you had to do the article Rayna, ask Teddy to take the girls or have Deacon take them if he wasn't sick. He seems nice enough he could handle Maddie's little sister hanging around. I have mixed feelings about Scarlett's storyline, but I like seeing a relationship that isn't about sex. Kiley is crazy. Zoe and Gunnar seem to be falling apart. As much as I resent being free babysitting, I would try to be understanding for my partner's sake at least in the beginning. I actually kind of understand Rayna and Maddie. While Rayna was wrong to do the interview on family time, she was right to point the publicity angle. These days all it takes is your best friend snapping, posting and tagging to Facebook and if you're big enough news, everyone will see it. As big as Rayna and Luke are (not to mention Deacon and Teddy aren't exactly nobodies) I think it's a good chance it would get a lot of media action from a casual Facebook image. Maddie can decide she doesn't care if people know but she should be aware that it could happen. I can also understand why Maddie and Rayna are frustrated with each other. Rayna is frustrated with Maddie's string of acting out and Maddie is frustrated with Rayna's incessant working.

Finally saw this episode. Will and Layla's reality show looks like the most fake thing I've ever seen, too fake even for reality tv. Most of reality television has fake love and instalust, not just mild animosity. Deacon's song was the best for me of this season. Kiley's son sure is trusting for a kid who moves around a lot and has a mother who's always looking over her shoulder. As suspicious as Kiley is, it's hard for me to believe her son wouldn't be just like her. Rayna and Luke are ready to explode. Avery and Juliette are making progress. I'll give them that. My parents told about drugs and alcohol my whole life. With addiction in her family, Rayna, Teddy, and Deacon need to get serious with Maddie.

It's boring as all get out on this road trip. The kids are cute, but not that exciting. Very reminded of my fundie lite friends. If Jana really was on that trip, then it's the same as my fundie lite friends always giving the mother a lot of help without giving any credit to her sister helpers. That being said it's probably easier and better to be Jana than Anna (being eternally pregnant and stuck with someone like Josh), even with all the help from family and friends. Another similarity to my fundie lite friends is the "road trips are easy we only need to make a few stops" mentality. I know someone who got a blood clot in their leg at young age, and the doctor said driving long distances without break was a contributing cause. It's best to take breaks even when it seems dumb and especially for someone like Josh who seems to be worried about his health at young age. (although they do have an RV which probably allows them to travel and switch drivers and walk around especially if Jana is there.) It's hard to eat healthy on the road, but even a lot of fast food places offer salad. Couldn't one of the sisters lend them a gift card? Finally Gettysburg managed not to talk about death and destruction. I don't know if it's TLC or the way the site is set up or if that's the vacation package offered for little children, but I would liked to see a little more of honoring of those who died and served versus just the canons and things were different than the old days. Also You would have to pay me to eat the doughnut burger. Ew!

OM Seriously I just saw the instagram picture of Jim and Michelle. What were they thinking? Then again they are obsessed with re-enactments look at the way they reenact the marriage proposals. As for Jill and Derrick to kiss like that he'd have to squish her stomach, which he seems afraid he's going to do.(based on the photos of them at Jessa's wedding)

Someone I knew from Texas told me she knew people from school who did the side hug thing. Particularly she said there were guys in her high school would only give side hugs to girls in her high school. I don't think it was that they would only side hug family members, according my friend it was more other young people of the opposite sex. Considering they went to high school, I don't believe they were Gothardites, although certainly religious fundies. So I have heard of it elsewhere, but not to the extent of the Duggars.

I'm watching it again. Ben: "Jessa and I get along real well like ice cream and a cone." I immediately thought of the ice cream falling off cones. Or someone dropping the ice cream off the cone. I'm just saying ice cream and a cone don't have the relationship of PB & J or macaroni and cheese etc. I feel like part of Ben's memory driven proposal is also TLC's way of telling the viewers, "you thought we wasted your time with all those dates. Look how meaningful they are." Michelle: "Even though Jill wasn't able to be here, we were sending her pictures and updates."

Jim Bob isn't going to tell Derrick to quit his job. He had enough trouble getting Josh on financially solid ground. He has 9 other sons to also help to a financially sound future. John David seems well on his way, but then Ben, his other son-in-law, also needs help getting to financially sound place. Given they let Jessa marry Ben, they may have more son-in-laws to have to help financially. This family has enough children becoming adults, who need all the help they can get becoming financially sound to raise a family. The last thing they need is another couple of people who are reliant on them and Jill and Derrick are having babies (even more mouths to feed.)

I keep reading articles that say Jim Bob and Michelle are freaking out about the front hug. These same articles point out she broke the rules! As if it's a big deal! I wonder if TLC waited to air this special til after she was married to spare her from Jim Bob and Michelle's wrath.

Is is just me or does Jessa's dress look whiter on the fan site than it did in initial pictures? I didn't like either bridesmaid dress much. I can't blame Jill for her shoes. They look comfy and I'm glad she didn't go barefoot and pregnant. Since she's pregnant, I don't care that she didn't don heels. Michelle looks much better than she did at Jill's wedding. However I think Guin was trying to go with the wedding color scheme. I think Guinn is attractive, but there she looks harried and sleep-deprived. Second thoughts?

"and I enjoyed tough Tim DeKay in his white t-shirt. (I'm the one who would step around Bomer to make out with DeKay.) Alas, the episode had two major elements that didn't work for me, both at the end." Haven't watched the show in years, but I thought this was perfect time after reading the story to point out Tim Dekay is cute and always looks a little Darren Stevenses to me (Both Dicks, particularly York but also Sargent.)

Well after reading these spoilers I'm relieved to see that Gunnar is not the father. However given his lack of family I think he still care a lot if Jason is the father. On the plus side for Jason is, it will still be Gunnar's nephew and a link to his brother. It could be revealed from DNA possibly. (uncle and nephew sharing more than two strangers?) I think the boy's father could be someone else neither Jason nor Gunnar. I think Kylie could be on the run from her real baby-daddy.

Observations after finally watching the episode on-line: Gunnar doing math isn't nearly as good as Michael Westen doing math and deciding he wasn't the father in season 2 of Burn Notice. I'm still skeptical of the baby mama and not sure if she needs to be here. Gunnar is sort of the male Juliette, in terms of a misery scale. You know who has chemistry on this show: Rayna James and Sadie Stone! Seriously they have more chemistry than Rayna and any of her dudes. They can start dating younger particularly some of Gunnar's women. My favorite character is Glenn, in this episode. Avery is not behaving well, but I understand his upset about the pregnancy the way he did. Juliette could have had Glenn or Emily help her tell him in person. I know a lot of people like Jeff, but why is he so angry at Layla that he won't take the opportunity to try to develop her as a female artist? I know she's not a great person, but she has a decent voice and with a lot of training and development she could become a female artist Edgehill is proud of. Since he's desperate for female artists, he should try her again. I liked Teddy telling off Rayna. It's good for her to hear it straight.

As far as I understand Gothardism (mostly from the old TWOP site), keeping the family together for almost every event was one of his ideas. He thought it would create wholesomeness. On the site Recovering Grace, adults who raised as children, with Gothard principles talk about this. For example article #4 of their (Recovering Grace's) Most Popular 25 articles goes into this somewhat.

All I know for sure about the timing is that it was after Jill got married. My memory is the engagement was announced in August, however I was under the impression they waited to announce the engagement until his father spilled the beans. His father also complained that he felt the Duggars were difficult in part for delaying the engagement or the announcing of the engagement. I think they may have gotten engaged while Jill was still on her honeymoon. Or closer to the date they announced and she had morning sickness. Or Jill and Derrick decided to spend time with his mother. Or just they wanted time to themselves. Considering they have such little time before the baby is here, I don't blame them. One of the things that annoys me about the Duggars is the need to have constant togetherness for every little event. If Jill and Derrick miss a few little events here and there it doesn't bother me. Engagements used to private anyway, it's not like they missed the wedding. I kind of feel bad for Jill and Derrick as neither of them had the guts or gumption to tell the parents "Enough with the stupid rules about holding hands and giving hugs." Jessa and Ben got away with so much more last night, more than Jill did on her wedding day! I also liked Josh's proposal. In general, proposals seem to be getting more and more elaborate even among nonfamous folks. I think it was TLC's decision to do the scavenger hunt and fill an hour of programming. I agree with people that they are one of TLC's biggest shows right now.

Finally seeing the lego talk. I was surprised they bleeped the Duggars. Literally they have to replay the last episode shown less than an hour ago. I've never understood the filming of births and the viewing of births and the shows around births (such as TLC's A Baby Story and DHC's Birth Day), but clearly there's an audience and a market for all of this. Jimbob's face when that boy said "Actually I don't like tater tot casserole." The Duggars know how to film tv, that's a career building skill. Joseph has the same hair as Jim-Bob. Yeah it's sweet watching all the good times, a lot of which they could afford, because it made better television. Did any see how Michelle was listed in the credits at the end? Did they say she was a producer?

The whole asking for her hand seemed staged when he already agreed to a courtship. "The whole point is asking for her heart when Daddy has her heart is so he can give her heart to another man." Eww. What amazes me is that the Duggars not only believe this nonsense, but a lot of my lightly religious (non fundie-living together before marriage) friends believe in the asking for the hand. A tablet is nice gift especially along with a ring. They can't hold hands for prayer, but Joy can finger-comb Ben's hair. Once again the completely arbitrary notion of what might lead people to sin boggles the mind. Ben likes to rehash their old dates. Example: Jessa had to make a hole in one because her parents took them golfing and Ben's sentimental. I can just see after they're married "Remember the time your parents handcuffed them together..." In general I see Jessa having mixed feelings about the proposal in general. On the hand, she likes feeling treasured and the proposal probably made her feel special. On the other hand, she's a private person and the public being embarrassed was probably uncomfortable for her. I think she probably has mixed feelings about Ben too. I would be soooo disappointed if I was expecting my love and I got my entire family instead. I didn't like the green shirt Michelle was wearing. The Thorncrown chapel is lovely!!! The proposal on site was elegant, but front hug!

I could see how it could be taken that way. I personally while watching the episode didn't think Michelle sounded smug and she sounds smug a lot. I thought she sounded upset. For me, the Duggars are so Duggarcentric that for Michelle to even remember that Derrick had a mother who was ailing was a big moment for her, where she got out of her own little world. I think in conservative public prayers are really common and even people mildly religious would think of public prayer under the circumstances, I didn't see it as a brilliant idea. Also Derrick may have been thinking about, but might not have been sure if he should share his feelings. I thought it was an invitation for Derrick to open up and about as with it as I've ever seen Michelle.

watching the episode again ( I apologize if I mention things are all ready mentioned.): Sierra the wedding planner has a Spanish looking last name. I would love to see a Duggar marry a Latino. Maybe she has some in-laws to introduce to the Duggar singles. Their church didn't look any particular religion just built after 1970. I've been to churches like that. I forgot the Jim-Bob had to say "you may now kiss the bride." I understand why Jessa didn't kiss at the altar. Jim bob completely had to control the kiss and he likes being in control. As bad as Mechelle's nothingness (in what she says) is, Jim Bob's controlling behavior in my opinion. I actually thought it was classy of Michelle to ask Derrick to pray for his mom. I wish the Duggars had acknowledged the loss of his father more. The engagement song gets worse the more I hear it. I like Jana, but I think she talked too much during the parts where they're talking to the camera. They could have shown Amy or other members of the family talking more. There were times when I couldn't tell if they were chaperoned the day of the wedding, but then I heard Jim Bob ask who was chaperoning the call to Derrick's mom. What a jerk. That was a really passive aggressive compliment from boob to Michelle "Well that's modest dress if ever I saw one." Jackson on passing notes "Make a kid run ten miles through that church." I doubt it was ten miles. That homeschooling is working well. Does one of the Duggars wear glasses or is that groomsman one of Derrick's friends? I finally saw the Amy and Deanna moment. It was cute. I wish there more footage of the wedding without so much of the people talking against the school picture backgrounds! I think the jackets on the men's suits looked so long three buttons would have been better. Is it just me or were Josh's and Anna's vows more conservative? Ben just said "he's looking forward to when they say you may now kiss the bride." I went to a wedding where they was as much talk of babies as this wedding, and I found it as tacky and sad then as now. The balloons in the truck were in bad taste. I didn't remember that.

No idea on Orthodox, but I'm Catholic. A Catholic ceremony is long when you have a full mass (which is our normal service). Lately most of my Catholic friends have had the full mass. That's over one hour, maybe even two. In my parent's generation the nonfull mass was popular, it also depends on the people getting married. A non-full mass ceremony can be about twenty minutes or thirty minutes, which is probably what I'll have assuming I ever get married in the church. Don't know about Ben and Jessa, but Derrick and Jill's looked that long assuming there were readings and songs sung, etc.

Reading about the wedding I had these thoughts: It seemed nice that they chose to have their first kiss alone, although possibly with tv cameras? did TLC film it any bets? I personally wouldn't do it at my wedding. For people who never kissed, it can be hard not knocking heads, lining up lips that kind of thing. Why put yourself through public awkwardness? I love Ice cream sundaes, but not necessarily out doors in November. It seems cheaper than cake, but maybe not? Now I know why they had the wedding when they did, they deliberately timed it so he can be 19 and she can be 21. Not sure when his birthday is but hers (according to Wikipedia) is in a few days. Still it may look better in their eyes if she's only listed as two years older. It doesn't bother me one or the other, but I surprised they let court and marry a younger man even if he is only a few years younger and it's not a big deal to rest of us. Hey GEML, is there any rules in fundie culture you've seen about who should be older?

I loved it! Too