Siobhan Roy: She has an arrangement (no it's not floral)

[scrb]

Shiv is coming in for some criticism in season 2, after being a fan favorite in season 1.

She showed independence from the family and especially Logan in season 1, with an apparently much more sympathetic politics.  She'd always express doubts and skepticism about ATN and other key Waystar businesses.

But in season 2, after Logan told her he wanted her to be CEO, Shiv has been thirsty to nail down the "promise."

She's said she was surprised and in some ways, regretful that she wanted the Roy throne so much.

Was her political strategist career always some proxy for her true ambitions?  Or maybe a way to hurt daddy for not taking her seriously as a successor?

Was Logan's promise just a gambit to get her to quit notBernie Sanders?

Will notBernie Sanders re-enter the picture if Logan keeps messing with Shiv?  Or has she burned that bridge forever?

On a different note, are her new hairdo and wardrobe for Tom?  Or to take advantage of her "arrangement?"  Or for Logan to take her more seriously as a contender?

[scrb]

From S02E07 The Return

Shiv: I've managed to get myself into this situation where what does my dad think is my entire fucking universe.

[BlackberryJam]

Shiv has great hair and her pants are amazing. I love all of her pants and I love her for wearing pants.

Of course, she spends 10 minutes in Logan’s presence and becomes an idiot, but that seems common among the Roy spawn.

Edited September 24, 2019 by BlackberryJam

[Eyes High]

4 hours ago, scrb said:

Shiv is coming in for some criticism in season 2, after being a fan favorite in season 1.

She showed independence from the family and especially Logan in season 1, with an apparently much more sympathetic politics.  She'd always express doubts and skepticism about ATN and other key Waystar businesses.

But in season 2, after Logan told her he wanted her to be CEO, Shiv has been thirsty to nail down the "promise."

I think the only way to understand what's really going on with the kids wanting to be CEO is if you assume the kids say "the CEO position" but really mean "Dad's complete and unconditional love and approval." That's why Shiv transformed from a competent, independent professional with her own life to a desperate, grasping basket case when Logan offered her the position. She didn't want the company (and she honestly couldn't care less about the minutiae of running it or doing boring training programs). She wanted Logan's love and approval, and the possibility that Logan might yank it away after dangling it before her turned her into something she hates, as she ruefully tells Rhea: someone obsessed with what Logan thinks.

Shiv actually betrayed this when she said she wouldn't chase Logan like a schoolgirl with a crush: it's Logan's love she's after, and the job is entirely secondary. If Logan sat Shiv down and told her with utter sincerity that he adored her and supported her in all her endeavours, do you think she'd care about the company? I don't...Of course, as in a lot of relationships, the more desperate Shiv got, the more aloof Logan became. The saddest part was that Shiv knew exactly where she was going wrong--she stated in 2x05 (correctly) that her father doesn't like to be pushed and that there would be consequences for what she did--but she couldn't stop herself.

Quote

Was Logan's promise just a gambit to get her to quit notBernie Sanders?

I don't think so, because of Logan's secrecy around the offer (even with Marcia) and what appeared to be his genuine, unguarded comments with Rhea: he picked Shiv but worries that he moved too quickly, wondering whether she has it in her after all. I think he truly wanted it to be Shiv, but that her disastrous mistakes and attempts to push him to name her soured him on the prospect and left him looking for a graceful exit.

Edited September 24, 2019 by Eyes High

[scrb]

In season 2, Shiv had to admit to Logan and herself that she wanted to be in the most inner circle, that she wanted the throne too.  In fact she blew up her career and burned bridges, went all-in despite not Bernie Sanders dangling White House Chief of Staff in front of her.

Only to find that Logan wouldn't make good on his promise and was looking at someone else.

She had every right to be salty and may have remained so if this Cruises scandal didn't come up and smear her rival.

Yet when the family and the company needed her most, she stepped up.  First she groveled to not Bernie Sanders and Nate, whom she had dumped, tried to cut a deal.  She learned they had another witness.  Then she accepted the mission, two women dispatched to win over a female victim of Cruises.

She was doing it to try to save Roy family control over Roystar.  If they lose the shareholder vote, she walks away with billions and can find a new career.

Yet she pulled it off, using her political consultant skills to give Kira reasons to be both afraid and to not testify (because Shiv was going to clean up the company).

Did she take on the mission out of family loyalty or it was no bid deal, she makes people do what she wants all the time?

[nb360]

On 9/24/2019 at 12:48 PM, BlackberryJam said:

Shiv has great hair and her pants are amazing. I love all of her pants and I love her for wearing pants.

I love her clothes this season, especially the blazers. Any one know who she's wearing or where the show's stylist gets her clothes?

[nb360]

A Google search helped me answer my question. This from the New Yorker:

"Shiv’s “new armor” [in season 2]: structured, tailored pieces from the Row, Stella McCartney, Armani, and Max Mara, which match the angular slash of her new blown-out bob.:

This from Huff Post: "Roy’s style is pretty easy to pull off and is easily available at an affordable price point."

Comments from the show's costume designer at Vox: "... Michelle Matland, who has been the show’s costume designer"... [Marlene] "Dietrich was a major influence for Shiv’s season two looks, says Matland. "

Marlene Dietrich and pants -- of course! Why didn't I see the similarities before!

Edited October 8, 2019 by nb360

[scrb]

She looks great but come on, this focus on her hair and wardrobe is not giving Sarah Snook credit as an actress or the writing of Shiv's character.

[nb360]

I think this is harmless fun - all parts of the character are working well, focusing on her clothes does not detract from her acting. She looks good.

People focused on Meryl Streep’s clothes and looks in Big Little Lies. That conversation did not diminish Streep as an actress.

[Eyes High]

11 hours ago, nb360 said:

A Google search helped me answer my question. This from the New Yorker:

"Shiv’s “new armor” [in season 2]: structured, tailored pieces from the Row, Stella McCartney, Armani, and Max Mara, which match the angular slash of her new blown-out bob.:

This from Huff Post: "Roy’s style is pretty easy to pull off and is easily available at an affordable price point."

Comments from the show's costume designer at Vox: "... Michelle Matland, who has been the show’s costume designer"... [Marlene] "Dietrich was a major influence for Shiv’s season two looks, says Matland. "

Marlene Dietrich and pants -- of course! Why didn't I see the similarities before!

Michelle Matland really committed to the turtleneck aesthetic for Shiv in S2. Even Shiv's dress in 2x08 had a mock turtleneck collar!

[BlackberryJam]

I love the fact that we have a female character who is wearing clothes that are actually business setting appropriate and that can be mixed and matched to assemble a wardrobe for women in real life. Too often we see TV business women in strapless dresses with slits, inappropriate necklines, shoes that would ache after 30 seconds. A women in a business suit on TV is usually frumpy and lumpy, constantly adjusting.

The wardrobe for SS is inspiring and helps us look at female characters differently. She's both professional and gorgeous. She doesn't have to give up one to embody the other. 

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

I love the fact that we have a female character who is wearing clothes that are actually business setting appropriate and that can be mixed and matched to assemble a wardrobe for women in real life. Too often we see TV business women in strapless dresses with slits, inappropriate necklines, shoes that would ache after 30 seconds

*cough cough*Suits*cough cough*

Quote

The wardrobe for SS is inspiring and helps us look at female characters differently. She's both professional and gorgeous. She doesn't have to give up one to embody the other.

Yes, Shiv's default S2 outfit of turtleneck + high-waisted pants looks wearable and impeccable. Everything's been beautifully tailored as well, which is really what screams wealth more than any designer label will. (Shiv and Roman mocking Tom's "boxy" suits was a particularly pointed dig.)

12 hours ago, scrb said:

She looks great but come on, this focus on her hair and wardrobe is not giving Sarah Snook credit as an actress or the writing of Shiv's character.

Hair and wardrobe is character in any show or film where they're doing their job right: Shiv shifting from wavy, long, less professional hair to a sleek, straight bob and from unfussy, unobtrusive corporate wear to Marlene Dietrich-inspired power dressing tells us more about her goals and her ambition than any line of dialogue ever could. Ditto for Kendall's ridiculous Lanvin sneakers, Tom's pretentious Italian suits, Roman's conspicuously casual but immaculately tailored shirts, Greg's transformation from Gap-wearing, shaggy-haired lowly employee to Theory-wearing, shorter-haired Tom clone. If a character's hair, wardrobe, and even makeup choices tell you nothing about who that character is, then someone isn't doing their job. And that's much like life: how a person presents himself or herself to the world tells you a lot about how they see themselves, what's important to them, and how they want to be seen. Shiv ditching the long hair and low-key clothes in favour of straight, short hair and capital-l Looks is an external reflection of her internal shift: she wants to be taken more seriously.

Edited October 8, 2019 by Eyes High

[BlackberryJam]

I have never seen Suits and after flipping through that, I’m certain I never will. Women do not wear hip bustles and one sleeve blouses at the office. Holy fuck, those clothes were total nightmares.

I always go into men’s stores and look at the giant wall of identical shirts in and long for that. I want to find the perfectly fitted blouse (with two sleeves and an appropriate neckline and collar ...also not cropped and can tuck in and will stay tucked in) so I can buy it in 400 different colors.

Shiv, and even Gerri, Cyd and Rhea, are wearing actual business clothing. 

[politichick]

On 10/7/2019 at 11:18 PM, scrb said:

She looks great but come on, this focus on her hair and wardrobe is not giving Sarah Snook credit as an actress or the writing of Shiv's character.

But these were articles about clothes/style and one of them talked about other characters' clothing as well. And the power haircut and clothes say a lot about her character this season.

[BeckyThatcher]

I gave in to the Shiv style. Now I have a new haircut and then went to Neiman’s and overspent. But I gotta say- eight inches of hair cut off and a new sleek wardrobe- does change your attitude ( and posture!)

I guess things never change:

Tess McGill: "You want to be taken seriously, you need serious hair."
 

My DH is slightly afraid of me now 🙂

Edited October 12, 2019 by BeckyThatcher
Remembered the 1980s

[Bama]

Yeah, costuming and hair and makeup tell the story of a character if done with serious thought and used in conjunction with the script and storyline.

We’ve seen it in “Breaking Bad” with the color stories used for each character and in “Mad Men” with the changing wardrobes of Peggy, Betty, and Joan reflecting their change in status over the course of the story.

Pointing out that the character of Shiv is using her hairstyle and clothing choices to project her new ambitions in no way devalues Sarah Snook’s acting ability just as commenting on how the Kendall character uses riding a motorcycle to project a cool image devalues Jeremy Strong’s acting.

Great shows use wardrobe to enhance characters and the story.

 And both Shiv and Sarah look mighty fine as a bonus.

(As for being shallow - I wish Sarah would borrow some from Shiv in the clothing department. Her real life choices are not the best.)

[scrb]

Appearance as character only up to a point.

Did Shiv successfully get Kira to not testify because of her hair and outfit?

No, it's how she convinced her, what she was willing to say, the fact that she was willing to take on that mission in the first place.

If she's the new, better-looking face of Waystar, is she going to be able to be better at her job because of her presentation?

World isn't going to forgive Waystar for the Cruises scandal before Shiv looks good.

Sure I understand that her look this season is about projecting her professional ambitions, about signaling that she's serious about contending for the Waystar throne.

But for her to ascend to the throne, she's going to have to bring substance, even though this show underlines how much appearances and PR spin matters.

[Eyes High]

On 10/13/2019 at 3:22 PM, Bama said:

Yeah, costuming and hair and makeup tell the story of a character if done with serious thought and used in conjunction with the script and storyline.

We’ve seen it in “Breaking Bad” with the color stories used for each character and in “Mad Men” with the changing wardrobes of Peggy, Betty, and Joan reflecting their change in status over the course of the story.

Pointing out that the character of Shiv is using her hairstyle and clothing choices to project her new ambitions in no way devalues Sarah Snook’s acting ability just as commenting on how the Kendall character uses riding a motorcycle to project a cool image devalues Jeremy Strong’s acting.

Great shows use wardrobe to enhance characters and the story.

 And both Shiv and Sarah look mighty fine as a bonus.

(As for being shallow - I wish Sarah would borrow some from Shiv in the clothing department. Her real life choices are not the best.)

Yes, absolutely! I think Succession is going to be up there with Mad Men in terms of enhancing narrative through clothing choices. 

On 10/13/2019 at 3:41 PM, scrb said:

If she's the new, better-looking face of Waystar, is she going to be able to be better at her job because of her presentation?

World isn't going to forgive Waystar for the Cruises scandal before Shiv looks good.

Sure I understand that her look this season is about projecting her professional ambitions, about signaling that she's serious about contending for the Waystar throne.

But for her to ascend to the throne, she's going to have to bring substance, even though this show underlines how much appearances and PR spin matters.

I think much was made in S2 of Shiv's media savvy and having "the right image" to be the face of Waystar, and her beauty and newfound sharper, more corporate look is part of that, so to a certain extent, style is substance,

[Athena5217]

On 10/8/2019 at 1:03 PM, BlackberryJam said:

I have never seen Suits and after flipping through that, I’m certain I never will. Women do not wear hip bustles and one sleeve blouses at the office. Holy fuck, those clothes were total nightmares.

Jessica Pearson (player by Gina Torres) has some amazing outfits, but the other female characters were often dressed inappropriately. Some of Jessica’s outfits were more appropriate for a cocktail party than the office, but she always seemed to pull it off. I had waved that as she dressed differently when she had to go to court.

However, I agree that Shiv is wearing actual business clothing and the sort of thing I would wear if I could spend a thousand dollars on an outfit. In addition to the style, they are perfectly tailored and chosen for her body type. Major kudos to the wardrobe department. I hope this is recognized by awards shows.

Does anyone else walk into a store and think, “I wonder if they have any Shiv pants?”

i spent half the season feeling guilty for loving her clothes because the actress is doing a great job with the character and deserves much credit. I’ve decided I  can appreciate both the actress and the clothes without diminishing the talent of anyone involved with the show. 

[scrb]

So we have to talk about the arrangement again.

Shiv set up a threesome with another woman but Tom wasn't into it.

He's not a hippie, he doesn't want an open marriage.  Feels that she strong-armed him into it, on the eve of their wedding.

Did she insist on the arrangement because of her appetite for others or because it was one other thing she could make Tom give in to?

Well it was after she had messed around with Nate so she wanted a certain freedom.  She clearly wanted that actor so she doesn't have to worry about repercussions.

But she made him sign a prenup which apparently doesn't have any penalties for infidelity. So a formal understanding of an open marriage wasn't even necessary.

In fact, after the prenup, there was an understanding, which is why Tom did the snowball thing with Tabitha in the Prague episode, which was suppose to be his bachelor party.

(Maybe Tom needs to have better encounters for him to be more enthusiastic about the arraignment).

He was eyeing someone else earlier this season and Shiv was like "Her? You want to do her?"  Her excuse was something like she grew up with that other woman so Tom can't hook up with her.

If Tom went hog wild with the arrangement, Shiv might not like it so much.

[BlackberryJam]

21 hours ago, Athena5217 said:

However, I agree that Shiv is wearing actual business clothing and the sort of thing I would wear if I could spend a thousand dollars on an outfit. In addition to the style, they are perfectly tailored and chosen for her body type. Major kudos to the wardrobe department. I hope this is recognized by awards shows.

Does anyone else walk into a store and think, “I wonder if they have any Shiv pants?”

i spent half the season feeling guilty for loving her clothes because the actress is doing a great job with the character and deserves much credit. I’ve decided I  can appreciate both the actress and the clothes without diminishing the talent of anyone involved with the show. 

I want clothes tailored that perfectly. I mean, Sarah Snook does not have a miniscule waist and all of those pants look so damn good. I am in the "thicker waist" crowd and feel like all the pants that fit my waist are too big in the hips. Her clothes fit her body proportions and I want, want, want, want, a Shiv Roy line of clothing at Macy's. 

[Eyes High]

23 hours ago, scrb said:

So we have to talk about the arrangement again.

Shiv set up a threesome with another woman but Tom wasn't into it.

He's not a hippie, he doesn't want an open marriage.  Feels that she strong-armed him into it, on the eve of their wedding.

Did she insist on the arrangement because of her appetite for others or because it was one other thing she could make Tom give in to?

Shiv has never shown any interest in women (which doesn't mean that she has none, I know) and has picked men for her previous conquests. I think the threesome was supposed to be a gift for Tom's benefit, maybe in potential anticipation of Tom getting the chop (even though Shiv had asked Logan to pick Kendall).

Quote

(Maybe Tom needs to have better encounters for him to be more enthusiastic about the arraignment).

I think that for all his talk, in his heart of hearts, Tom really is a conventional sort of guy who just wants to have lots of monogamous, purely vanilla missionary sex with his wife.

As much as he bragged about the snowball thing ("So hot!"), it was pretty clear he found it horrible and degrading and was trying to convince himself he was into it. He also said in his angry rant to Shiv "I don't want to shove a dildo up my--" before stopping himself, so I'm guessing we can add pegging to the list of sexual activities Tom does not enjoy that he has pretended to enjoy for Shiv's sake.

It may be that on top of all the emotional shit going on, Tom and Shiv are not sexually compatible, with Tom being monogamous and vanilla and Shiv being into other things (polyamory, pegging, etc.). No wonder they're so miserable.

Quote

If Tom went hog wild with the arrangement, Shiv might not like it so much.

Even when Shiv is offering an extramarital dalliance she thinks Tom will like, she's making it clear it has to be on her terms. She picked the lady, it's a threesome and not Tom and the lady having some fun without her, etc.

3 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

I want clothes tailored that perfectly. I mean, Sarah Snook does not have a miniscule waist and all of those pants look so damn good. I am in the "thicker waist" crowd and feel like all the pants that fit my waist are too big in the hips. Her clothes fit her body proportions and I want, want, want, want, a Shiv Roy line of clothing at Macy's. 

The costuming on this show is a compelling argument for everyone who can afford it to get their clothing tailored.

Edited October 16, 2019 by Eyes High

[Dminches]

27 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Shiv has never shown any interest in women (which doesn't mean that she has none, I know) and has picked men for her previous conquests. I think the threesome was supposed to be a gift for Tom's benefit, maybe in potential anticipation of Tom getting the chop (even though Shiv had asked Logan to pick Kendall).

I don’t agree.  Shiv put together the threesome for her pleasure.  She was way too disappointed that Tom said “no” for it to just be a gift.  She was practically begging for it.

[Eyes High]

5 minutes ago, Dminches said:

I don’t agree.  Shiv put together the threesome for her pleasure.  She was way too disappointed that Tom said “no” for it to just be a gift.  She was practically begging for it.

She was marching him off to his execution with a gift, thus his grim comment about "death sentence vibes."

[Dminches]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

She was marching him off to his execution with a gift, thus his grim comment about "death sentence vibes."

Could be although by that time she knew it was likely going to be Kendall.

I guess I don't put anything past Shiv when it comes to her own pleasure.

[BlackberryJam]

Shiv was fine with Tom just watching as long as she had her fun. The threesome wasn’t for Tom at all.

[Eyes High]

9 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Shiv was fine with Tom just watching as long as she had her fun. The threesome wasn’t for Tom at all.

I rewatched the scene, and that wasn't my take at all. On the other hand, Michelle Matland's main style inspirations for S2 for Shiv were Katharine Hepburn and Marlene Dietrich, so maybe the costume folks were trying to tell us something. Shiv realizes that she's a lesbian: possible arc for S3?

...In all seriousness, I'm not sure if we were supposed to interpret Tom and Shiv's beach scene as a final breakup, but Jesse Armstrong seemed to imply that it was: "In regard to the show, it's about that delicate moment of which you say 'That's too much. I can't do this anymore.'" If it is a final breakup, it would make Shiv's subsequent decision to beg Logan to spare Tom that much more poignant. Not only would it mean that despite the horrible way she has treated him, she does in fact love him, and that she loves him enough to sacrifice her career aspirations to protect him (as Logan unkindly made it clear that making Tom-type sacrifices was the stuff CEOs were made of), but that she loves him enough to do it even when she can't possibly benefit from it since Tom has made it clear that he's done with her. That's quite beautifully tragic. Shiv finally proves her love when it's too late for it to matter.

The real Shiv (Elisabeth Murdoch) was married several times (to men), so it seems quite possible that we're going to get a divorce storyline in S3, although I don't know how Matthew Macfadyen could stay on the show if there's no reason to keep Tom in the Roys' orbit. Shiv could even get a new man (or woman). Elisabeth's second husband was a PR executive, and the writers could have all kinds of fun with that.

And speaking of tragic, it's sad that for all S2 flirted with interesting stories about women and power, Shiv was ultimately forced to make the same bullshit choice women have always been forced to make in the working world: choosing between her career and her man.

Edited October 17, 2019 by Eyes High

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

...In all seriousness, I'm not sure if we were supposed to interpret Tom and Shiv's beach scene as a final breakup, but Jesse Armstrong seemed to imply that it was: "In regard to the show, it's about that delicate moment of which you say 'That's too much. I can't do this anymore.'"

FWIW, I wouldn't interpret that quote as implying that necessarily. Tom definitely drew his line in the sand, but I think "I can't do this anymore" could just result in Shiv having to adapt to that, in which case her scene with Logan is a sign she's going to do that.

[Eyes High]

34 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

FWIW, I wouldn't interpret that quote as implying that necessarily. Tom definitely drew his line in the sand, but I think "I can't do this anymore" could just result in Shiv having to adapt to that, in which case her scene with Logan is a sign she's going to do that.

Well, it depends on what the "this" is supposed to be in Jesse Armstrong's characterization of Tom's position as "I can't do this anymore." Is "this" sex stuff that does nothing for Tom? Is "this" Shiv dictating terms and Tom goes along with whatever she wants as her meek little lapdog to keep her happy? Or is "this" the relationship, period? Because Tom's last statement in that conversation--basically "I wonder if I'd be happier without you"--wasn't a rant about threesomes (even if he led off with that), or a complaint that Shiv steamrolls him (although he obviously doesn't love that, either), or even a demand that Shiv respect his boundaries. It was just "I'm incredibly unhappy, and I wonder if I'd be happier without you." It certainly seemed resigned and final, particularly given the way he started that conversation by scoffing at Shiv's profession of love: "I love you. I love this rock. Bye, rock. You're dead. What does it mean?"

I mean, realistically, Tom and Shiv were never going to last. Real Shiv and Real Tom (Elisabeth Murdoch and her first husband) certainly didn't. The only surprise would be that Tom dumped Shiv and not the other way around. It was never a question of whether they would get divorced, but when. Why not in Season 3? The writers might drag things out to keep Matthew Macfadyen on the show, but I don't know how Shiv and Tom move on from this in a relationship, unless they hit the reset in Season 3 and act as if the whole beach conversation never happened.

Edited October 17, 2019 by Eyes High

[sistermagpie]

Oh, I agree. I can read the quote both ways. I would assume there would have to be some major shift in their relationship in S3, and divorce is definitely on the table!

[RealReality]

I just spent 10m thinking about the shiv/tom relationship and if there was any way to avoid making shiv choose between Kendall/tom......but I don't.  

I don't remember/know how or when they met, so I thought maybe shiv could have directed tom away from the cruise division.  But frankly, Tom's behavior is pretty risky and could have led them to the same place with threats of harassment and bullying even when he wasn't cleaning up Moe's stuff.

Shiv could have been more supportive and loving, but does she even know how?  Her whole MO with Logan and Tom is to affect an air of indifference, until she is pushed to show and act like she cares.  It seems like she learned this from a lifetime of having the rug pulled out from under her.

She could have stood up more for Tom at the table discussion, and I think she was fine with him being the sacrifice.  But even if she had, she would have been subject to counterarguments from others at the table and Logan could have later just said that he picked tom because everyone else had said it was the best idea.  And if Logan really had his mind made up, nothing was going to change it except maybe a personal plea from shiv.  

Even though I think Logan may have wanted Kendall as blood sacrifice pretty early on. 

[FemmyV]

I don't feel sorry for Tom at all. Re-watching Season 1 and you see Tom, again and again, reveling in being A Rich Man, and willing to sacrifice others for it: He went after the business magnate's daughter to climb the ladder. He set Greg up to take the fall for the cruise division, and then included Shiv in the conspiracy ("And Greg's expendable, you know?"). He left his best friends out in the cold at the bachelor party. He left his best friends out in the cold.

Tom is a weasel. For all of Shiv's sexual infidelity, she's otherwise had his back. If Tom gets hauled in by the feds, I don't see him claiming Shiv never knew anything that was going on, not if implicating her will get him off with a fine.

Matthew MacFayden is great, btw.

 

Edited May 22, 2021 by FemmyV

[aghst]

On 5/21/2021 at 8:14 PM, FemmyV said:

I don't feel sorry for Tom at all. Re-watching Season 1 and you see Tom, again and again, reveling in being A Rich Man, and willing to sacrifice others for it: He went after the business magnate's daughter to climb the ladder. He set Greg up to take the fall for the cruise division, and then included Shiv in the conspiracy ("And Greg's expendable, you know?"). He left his best friends out in the cold at the bachelor party. He left his best friends out in the cold.

Tom is a weasel. For all of Shiv's sexual infidelity, she's otherwise had his back. If Tom gets hauled in by the feds, I don't see him claiming Shiv never knew anything that was going on, not if implicating her will get him off with a fine.

Matthew MacFayden is great, btw.

 

I don't think they'll do it but I wouldn't mind seeing their back story.

It's easy to conclude that she dominates the relationship because any status he has comes through her.

But while Tom says and does dumb things, I don't think Logan would give him high positions if Tom didn't have at least some clue.

He's not like Roman, who is unpolished or doesn't try to be polished in his presentation.  

[CouchTater]

Does anyone else notice the annoying habit Shiv has of inhaling sharply through her teeth, if that makes sense?  It's usually doing during a pause while or before speaking.  It drives me batty. 

[Lady S.]

On 10/12/2021 at 6:44 PM, aghst said:

It's easy to conclude that she dominates the relationship because any status he has comes through her.

But while Tom says and does dumb things, I don't think Logan would give him high positions if Tom didn't have at least some clue.

Yeah, I think he must have already had a good job at Waystar when they first got together. Iirc he got the promotion to head of Cruises after they got engaged as a welcome to the family, but there's no way Logan hired him and started moving him up the ladder just because Shiv was dating him. If Shiv had Daddy wrapped around her finger like that her life would be very different.

[aghst]

So The Arrangement is not a side plot.

Shiv held Tom at arm's length since that talk before the wedding night.

He told her he didn't like the arrangement at the end of season 2, hasn't been happy.

Then after the emotionally bruising chat with her mother, on the eve of her wedding night, Shiv goes in on Tom, with the whole let's have a baby, let's freeze embryos talk.  

She at one point tells Tom that she doesn't love him, that she's out of her league.

So s-s-shocker, Tom doesn't feel a compunction to be loyal to her.

First Logan betrays Shiv after making a promise to her, then Tom, then Caroline.  Shiv belittled Tom and Caroline.  It's not clear why Logan turned on her.  Maybe he remembers the days when she worked for Not Bernie Sanders, attacking his politics and business practices.

 

 

 

[Lady S.]

Logan doesn't need a good reason to turn on his children, but I thought Shiv lost her last shot as heiress in the s2 finale when she begged him not to choose Tom as the sacrifice. She wouldn't come out and say she wanted him to choose Kendall either iirc, just showed weakness for one man without being willing to kill the other. This season Logan's mainly been turning on her for things which aren't her fault imo like the deal she made at the shareholders meeting, even though Logan had presented no plan before his uti episode and had no answer when she asked how he would have solved it, while Roman stood around useless that whole time. Logan pivoted again after the dick pic meant for Gerri but that was more about disgust for Roman than respect for Shiv.

The irony is that Tom got his first real in with Logan by offering to be his new sacrifice after Shiv told him that might be a good idea after all. Or maybe the real irony is that Logan said back in s1 that was marrying a man beneath her because she was scared of betrayal and Tom did betray her after she made it clear just how beneath her she really thought he was.

[Pj3422]

My sister and I have a long-standing debate on Yellowstone vs. Succession. (Similar concept; awful people.,etc. ) I keep wondering what would happen if Shiv were written the same as Yellowstone’s Beth. 

[aghst]

Succession is out of Yellowstone's league, as Shiv and Tom would say.

[nb360]

https://www.thestar.com/life/fashion_style/2023/03/23/why-does-successions-shiv-roy-have-such-a-boring-wardrobe-we-have-a-theory.html?rf

I disagree with this article - I love Shiv's wardrobe!