BTVS Love/Relationships

[Jazzy24]

So this thread is about the relationships romantic, friendships, family, even enemies all in the buffyverse.

My favs

1. Buffy/Angel

2. Buffy/Giles

3. Willow/Oz

4. Buffy/Dawn

4. Willow/Xander

5. Buffy/Willow/Xander

[wingster55]

Platonic:

Xander-Willow

Giles-Buffy

Willow-Buffy

Xander-Willow-Buffy

Angel-Willow

Cordelia-Willow (I have my reasons for the last two!)

 

Romantic

Xander-Cordelia

Willow-Oz

Buffy-Angel

[DkNNy79]

1 - Buffy/Angel

2 - Gilles/Jenny Carpenter

3 - Xander-Cordelia

I liked both of Willow's relationships equally.

 

Platonic:

1 - Buffy/Gilles

 

Ugh, hated Dawn.

[mstaken]

My favorite platonic relationships were Buffy/Giles, Buffy/Xander, Willow/Giles and Willow/Xander (minus the Season 3 'affair', which I merrily fast forward through!) Can you tell I'm just a tad partial to the Core Four?! 

 

Weirdly enough, the only romantic relationship I really cared about deeply was Buffy/Angel, and my love for it has faded with rewatch. I liked Willow and Oz, but I agree with those who feel that Oz was a bit too flatly perfect a character to take all that seriously, and Willow's "tee hee hee, my boyfriend's in a BAND!" stuff kind of grates. Xander/Cordelia is fun and occasionally poignant (BB&B remains one of my five favorite episodes of the entire series), but I'm just not a big fan of perpetually bickering 'opposites attract' and 'it usually comes across more like hate, so naturally it's love!' pairings in general. 

 

My least favorite romantic relationships were Xander/Anya, Buffy/Spike and (*whispers*) Giles/Jenny. I know Giles/Jenny was very popular, but Jenny just comes across to me as cold, haughty and as if she always thinks she's ever-so-much-cooler than dorky ole Giles and hence doing him a favor by dating him. 

[Jazzy24]

They so ruined the core four relationship by the series finale. I loved my Scoobies. And I have violent feelings when I'm reminded what was done to my Buffy/Giles.

And yeah I can understand why some people didn't like Buffy and Angel but I thought they were perfect. They just got each other and even years later after spending so much time apart and going through so much crap separately it was nice to see them always slip into that familiar comfort with each other.

Another thing was Buffy was a withdrawn person she was never "share feelings Buffy" a lot but I think she was very open with Angel even years later and that's another thing I liked about Buffy/Angel but I did hate how her withdrawing isolated her from Willow and Xander.

[KatWay]

I really liked just about every pairing on the show, maybe due to my aforementioned viewing experience of bingewatching the entire series in two weeks, starting with Season 6. 

 

The only time I went ewwwww and had to look away from the screen was the Xander/Willow storyline. And it's not just because the pairing I saw first was Willow/Tara (I really liked Willow/Oz) but because they were platonic friends and this sudden "they're so hot for each other" thing didn't work for me at all. I also, despite the fact that I think the entire cast of Buffy has amazing chemistry, seriously there are no dud pairings, thought that Xander and Willow had zero romantic/sexual chemistry. I mean, none. Honestly, Alyson Hannigan didn't exactly project a lot of sexual energy with ANY of her partners, which is why this raw lust thing just did not work. At all.

 

Season 7 ended the core four relationship on a bit of a sour note, because once again they turned on Buffy a bit too easily I thought and once again they just glossed over that and were back to instant BFFs the next episode. 

 

By the way I am totally ignoring the comics as any kind of canon because Xander/Dawn is so ridiculously gross to me I can't even.

[wingster55]

I too wish it never happened, but because of the aftermath..nothing about the feelings they had for each other was explored..and the status quo was quickly resumed afterwards..with the exception of Cordelia's place in the Scoobies (which is why I'm fairly sure the whole thing was just a way to set up her future departure..no strings in Sunnydale)

[Dianthus]

I was into Bangel while it was happening, but I got over it. When Angelus said all those horrible things to her, I wanted to stake the b*st*rd myself!

Spuffy is the 'ship for me. It's messy and (in s6) depressingly dysfunctional, but they're like yin and yang to me. He's the dark, negative, feminine moon to her bright, positive, masculine sun. Some people say they don't make sense as a couple, but they make perfect sense to me.

 

I really liked Willow/Oz (loved Oz) and Willow/Tara. The less said about Willow/Kennedy the better.

 

Xanya had it's moments.

[DAngelus]

 

Xander/Willow…were platonic friends and this sudden "they're so hot for each other" thing didn't work for me at all.

Willow had spent the first two seasons openly pining for Xander and there's a two-year build (including his asking her to the prom and near-kissage) to the point where he admits he has feelings, too.  That they're in other relationships by that point and she thinks it's Oz declaring his love is unfortunate, but hardly reduces them to just "platonic friends", IMO.

 

That said, the lack of build on the characters' romantic conflict in S3 before the "fluke" and the ludicrous declaration that it was just random hormones was IMO offensive, and did mostly serve to emphasize that Joss was mainly trying to a) get Cordy off the show and b) cut the ground from under X/W's feet by making them dirty, cheating liars, so they can't criticize Buffy too badly when they find out she's hiding Temporarily-Non-Murderous (Or So Buffy Says) Vampire #1.  Much as in the repulsive S6, when Xander and Willow are twisted into shadows of themselves, made to "mistreat" St. Tara and Oh-That-Anya! so that they can't offer a legitimate revulsion at the concept of Buffy screwing Temporarily-Unable-to-Murder (But Still Murderously-Inclined) Vampire #2.  Nothing I love so much as seeing my favorite characters perverted to grease the path for Buffy's necrophiliac tendencies, I tells ya.  (Sigh.)

 

 

Xanya had its moments.

 

Her being hacked to death by the Bringer didn't suck, it's true.

 

(Man, how awful is Chosen?  I mean, Spike and Anya both die violent, horrible deaths, never to return*, and I still can't enjoy the episode at all.)

 

(*-Angel Season 5? What Angel Season 5?  Your words are strange…)

[Jazzy24]

I was into Bangel while it was happening, but I got over it. When Angelus said all those horrible things to her, I wanted to stake the b*st*rd myself!

Spuffy is the 'ship for me. It's messy and (in s6) depressingly dysfunctional, but they're like yin and yang to me. He's the dark, negative, feminine moon to her bright, positive, masculine sun. Some people say they don't make sense as a couple, but they make perfect sense to me.

I don't know how they made sense.

I also don't understand how something so dark in her life made sense when being the Slayer was dark enough for her. Buffy fought daily to not be pulled into the darkness and all Spike did was help her along in it, it was dysfunctional and degrading to Buffy.

Also when was Spike ever good for Buffy? Being with someone is suppose to make you better not bring out your worst or try to drag you into a really dark depressing place. Spike helped Buffy's depression, he tried alienating her from her friends, he made her think there was something wrong with her, he bought Buffy more problems than she needed. I never saw Spike as anything good for Buffy, she deserved much better than Spike.

[KatWay]

 

Much as in the repulsive S6, when Xander and Willow are twisted into shadows of themselves, made to "mistreat" St. Tara and Oh-That-Anya! so that they can't offer a legitimate revulsion at the concept of Buffy screwing Temporarily-Unable-to-Murder (But Still Murderously-Inclined) Vampire #2.  Nothing I love so much as seeing my favorite characters perverted to grease the path for Buffy's necrophiliac tendencies, I tells ya.  (Sigh.)

 

Okay, I really really really disagree with this assessment. So much. The Xander/Willow thing was in no way meant for them to be unable to be critical of Buffy, as you might remember Xander was plenty critical as it was and Willow always was pretty mellow regarding Buffy's romantic/sexual choices so her not judging Buffy that much either time made sense to me. Xander/Willow was built up as Willow's unrequited crush and Xander literally going after any girl before Willow, only showing interest in her when a) nobody else was available and b) another guy liked her. Their entire relationship was played as being unable to keep their hands off each other, which was ridiculous considering they had zero sexual chemistry and all they did was play footsie and make out. I still wish they'd never done it at all, but if they had to get it out of their system at least they didn't go the predictable route with them.

 

In S6 Xander was also plenty critical of Buffy re:Spike (and his bad treatment of Anya was swept under the table with her return to the dark side later, with Xander being the only one to plead with Buffy to spare her) and Willow's arc had nothing to do with Buffy, it was the stupid magic=addiction plotline the writers were so psyched to get across. Willow not being super judgemental of the Spike thing felt in character because Willow was usually the one who tried most to get where she was coming from, except for 3x2 (where I thought I was supposed to think Buffy deserved that treatment) and late S7 episodes which was also swiftly swept under a rug for a last minute reconciliation.

 

And screwing vampires has nothing to do with necrophilia. Necrophiliac fetishists get off on the fact that their counterpart is not moving, not responding (they may sleep with live people who just hold absolutely still). Vampires are moving, talking, screwing like regular people, despite being technically "dead". 

[Jack Shaftoe]

 

Xander/Willow was built up as Willow's unrequited crush and Xander literally going after any girl before Willow, only showing interest in her when a) nobody else was available

 

Cordelia was very much available. If she weren't, it would have been kind of hard for Xander to cheat on her, after all.

 

My favourites:

 

Romantic:

Willow/Tara

Xander/Cordelia

Giles/Jenny

 

Nothing comes close to these three for me. I like Riley a lot but I would never rewatch an episode just to see a certain moment of his relationship with Buffy, the way I can rewatch episodes for say yet another funny banter exchange between Xander and Cordy.

 

Platonic:

 

Willow-Xander (one of my favourite TV friendships of all time)

Willow-Xander-Buffy (because I couldn't choose between Willow-Buggy and Xander-Buffy) :)

Tara-Dawn

Giles-Buffy

[DAngelus]

 

Cordelia was very much available. If she weren't, it would have been kind of hard for Xander to cheat on her, after all.

 

Thank you! I was like "what?" when I read that "nobody else was available" comment, it's true.

 

And KatWay, I didn't mean to imply that Xander and Willow gave Buffy absolutely no criticism for lying about Angel in S3 or sleeping with Spike in S6, simply that they were cast as "sinners" in the eyes of the viewing audience (through plots you yourself express dislike for ["fluke", "magic addiction", runaway groom]) IMO so that the audience would not be receptive to any criticism they did make.

 

Although I do have to disagree with this:

 

In S6 Xander was also plenty critical of Buffy re:Spike

 

Nope, he doesn't criticize her at all for sleeping with Spike that season.  At the end of Entropy, he glares at Buffy in shock and disgust after Spike smugs "Buffy did" while Xander is asking Anya how she could ever have found Spike attractive.  (That Spike, he's such a prince, isn't he?  I don't know why Buffy won't just marry him, the poor sensitive boy.)  At the start of the next episode, Seeing Red, Buffy goes to Xander's apartment to discuss things, and Xander apologizes for being so upset, claims it was mostly because Buffy didn't trust him enough to tell him, and then backtracks and says that perhaps she was right to lie to him, after all.  (No, Xander, she wasn't.)  What Xander did a lot of, earlier in S6, was mock Spike for being so stupid as to think he stood a chance with Buffy.  Which, as Spike was then-currently ramming into Buffy everywhere but in the middle of the street, was a way for the show to make Xander look like an oblivious idiot, and thus a different way to deprive him of any possible role as "voice of the audience", because Joss wanted the audience to love Spuffy and be "rooting for those two crazy kids to work it all out."  So there was no actual criticism of B/S from Xander, and the show worked hard to make sure that none would be expected/tolerated, since he was the piece of shit who left poor Anya at the altar and all that. And, as you allude to, Willow only mentions the subject when she's mocking Buffy's "sales pitch' on life in Two to Go.

 

(In S7, Selfless, when Buffy is advocating killing Anya, Xander does make a sarcastic remark about how it's all grey area when it's some undead demon that Buffy is "boning", but that's much later.  And also, quite possibly more about Angel, if Xander is making a direct comparison between this argument they're having in Selfless and the similar one they had in Becoming, Part 1.  It's a bit unclear in the writing, to be honest [well, if Buffy hadn't boned multiple undead demons, we wouldn't have this problem, right?], but she does actually bring up "killing" Angel in response, so perhaps that's how she took it.)

 

So I would say this proves, rather than disproves (punny!) my thesis, that W/X had their stories separated from Buffy's in S6 and were made the "bad guys" in their relationships so that the audience wouldn't be looking for them to have a contrary view, or support them if they did.  Yes, S3 isn't as blatant about this or as repulsive as S6 (what could be, though?), but it's IMO cut from the same cloth.  There's less W/X resistance to the B/A reunion (despite the part where Angel tried to kill them all, just five months before) than you might expect because Joss makes sure to cut the moral high ground out from under their feet.

 

I mean, Xander (who gets the "Hanukah spirit" three episodes later and doesn't say another word to Buffy about Dear Forehead the rest of the year) somehow is less anti-Bangel after S2 than he was before.  Say what?  And yes, Willow loves to be Support-O-Gal, but what with Angel having stalked, attacked, tortured and murdered members of the group in the first half of the year (not to mention his orchestrating the attack that left her in a wheelchair), one might think she'd be a bit less-inclined to be dreaming of rainbows and unicorns for Buffy+Angel 4ever these days.

 

Instead, because Joss has decided to make Willow a "cheater", she's all forgiving of Buffy's lying to them before the next commercial break even hits, and is all "I guess secrets can be sexy, right?"  Sigh.  (And I absolutely love Revelations, but still.)  But JMO.

 

So, ranking the relationships (multiple episode romantic interactions between featured characters)

 

1.  Giles/Jenny -so sweet, tragically short.

2. Xander/Cordelia -had its flaws, but still a treasure.

 

GAP

 

3. Xander/Willow -a developing two-year love story (the same story Dawson's Creek was telling on the same Tuesday nights; I think Xander/Dawson realized their feelings for Willow/Joey on the exact same night, if I'm not mistaken) gets horribly mishandled in S3 and then forcibly ignored, but I'll still remember the good times.

 

GAP

 

4.  Buffy/Riley -some poor things done to get Riley off the series and never brilliant, but nice enough.

 

GAP

 

5.  Spike/Drusilla -quite entertaining, but can't rate it higher, on account of the "evil, soulless thing" thing.  ("Vampires are creeps."  "Yes, that's why one slays them.")

6.  Willow/Kennedy -a bit rough around the edges, but Ken's a good kid, and at least Willow occasionally got to be right, which was a pleasant change from her previous two relationships.

7.  Buffy/Angel-lots and lots of flaws, but they were both good people (mostly), cared for each other, and the stories told about the pairing were compelling.  Has to go on the positive half of the table, overall.

 

LARGE GAP

 

8.  Spike/Harmony -I have no interest in this pairing whatsoever, hate one of the characters, and will grow to hate the other.  A complete waste of screentime.  Only rates this high because it isn't pissing on characters I actually like.

 

9.  Giles/Joyce -As a long-term joke, it pays off when Giles walks into that tree.  As a "relationship" though, it simply serves to pigeonhole and reduce Giles to "old guy, kind of like Buffy's dad" which is so much less than he'd been before.  Can't really think she's his type, either (and if he's acting like a 16-year-old in Band Candy, then why is he banging the old bat?  Plenty of actual 16-year-olds around for "Ripper" to chase).  And Joyce virtually stepping over Jenny's corpse to hit on him in KIlled by Death is just gross.

 

LARGER GAP

 

10.  Willow/Oz -A Stick to Hit Willow With, part 1.  Oz's reserve sometimes crosses over into "aloof" or "patronizing", IMO, and his four-lines-per-ep role renders the pairing kind of boring.  But sometimes they're sweet, and sometimes he's funny.  Now if I could just forget the times he tells her she doesn't get a say in their relationship…

 

11.  Willow/Tara -A Stick to Hit Willow With, part 2.  Like Willow/Oz, only without the humor and with Tara's religious practices somehow factoring into it.  And at least Oz only ran off for the occasional weekend, unlike Tara's cutting off all communication for over a month.

 

12. Xander/Anya -mocked and degraded on a daily basis by your own personal shrew.  Oh, joy.  Four seasons' worth of cringing, both by Xander and by me, on his behalf.  (Okay, Anya actually was a loving girlfriend in Primeval.  She's allowed an occasional off-day, I suppose.)

 

INTERSTELLAR-SIZED GAP

 

13.  Buffy/Spike -remember girls, stalking, abuse and rape are all signs of love!  As long as he has "washboard abs", of course.  Yay, feminism!

 

All JMO, as per O'sual.

Edited July 12, 2014 by DAngelus

[wingster55]

Now if I could just forget the times he tells her she doesn't get a say in their relationship

 

Wait..when did that happen? I have no recollection of it.

[Dianthus]

Spike does make an excellent scapegoat, doesn't he?

Most of what Buffy's dealing with in s6 comes from being the Slayer. There's a darkness inherent in it, and the Slayer's power is rooted in darkness. 

Buffy's friends are the ones who pulled her out of "Heaven." They need her to be ok, in part, so they can be ok with what they did. Spike knows she's not ok, and he's ok with that. In OMWF, it's made clear in the text that Buffy tells him things she can't say to the others. He is, in a sense, her confessor and confidant.

In Buffy vs. Dracula (s5), Buffy says this to Giles:

"Hunting. That's what Dracula called it. And he was right. He understood my power better than I do. He saw darkness in it. I need to know more. About where I come from, about the other Slayers. I mean maybe...maybe if I could learn to control this thing, I could be stronger, I could be better."    

What does Spike say to Buffy, more than once, in s6?

"Stop me."

She hasn't learned "to control this thing." Not yet. She will, tho'.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Spike does make an excellent scapegoat, doesn't he?

Most of what Buffy's dealing with in s6 comes from being the Slayer. There's a darkness inherent in it, and the Slayer's power is rooted in darkness. 

Buffy's friends are the ones who pulled her out of "Heaven." They need her to be ok, in part, so they can be ok with what they did. Spike knows she's not ok, and he's ok with that. In OMWF, it's made clear in the text that Buffy tells him things she can't say to the others. He is, in a sense, her confessor and confidant.

In Buffy vs. Dracula (s5), Buffy says this to Giles:

"Hunting. That's what Dracula called it. And he was right. He understood my power better than I do. He saw darkness in it. I need to know more. About where I come from, about the other Slayers. I mean maybe...maybe if I could learn to control this thing, I could be stronger, I could be better."    

What does Spike say to Buffy, more than once, in s6?

"Stop me."

She hasn't learned "to control this thing." Not yet. She will, tho'.

Several points of order:

 

A) Calling Spike a scapegoat implies that he doesn't deserve criticism because he didn't do anything wrong. Even if you leave out the rest of the disgusting mess that was Spuffy, there's still the AR to contend with. If I'm to believe that that one act what was led Spike to seek his soul, then that means that he knew he'd done something bad enough, and that he had to fix it, yes?

 

B) The entire point of Angel leaving Sunnydale and going to Los Angeles was that he realized, with Joyce's help, that his relationship with Buffy wasn't healthy, and that if he remained close by, she would never be able to step into the light, which is what he wanted for her. Because he loved her.

 

C) The only reason Spike became Buffy's anything is because she was wallowing in self-loathing. As unhealthy as Bangel may have been, she liked herself when she was with Angel. I'm seriously asking you, do you believe that a Buffy who was fully herself would ever have let Spike touch her? If she would have, why wasn't she having sex with Angelus before that? Who represents 'the darkness within' better than the monster that wore her first love's face? I don't see how you can have it both ways and say that she'd consort with Spike and not with Angelus.

 

D) Spike also said, "Let yourself feel it" when he was trying to rape her into loving him. If she hadn't stopped him, he'd have gone through with it IMO, because her feelings and what she wanted didn't matter to him. Whatever else can be said against Angel, and believe me I can say a lot of things against Captain Forehead, he loved Buffy enough to get the hell away from her and let her at least try to have something normal. Spike? He hangs on like a tick or a leech.

 

I can see why people who like Spuffy try to put a nice face on the ship, and if I liked them together I'd try damned hard myself, but even objectively I don't agree in the slightest that it's any kind of healthy relationship. JMO.

[DAngelus]

 

Now if I could just forget the times [Oz] tells [Willow] she doesn't get a say in their relationship

 

Wait..when did that happen? I have no recollection of it.

 

Well, the most explicit case is at the end of Wild at Heart:

 

OZ : I'm going.

WILLOW : Now?

OZ : Mm-hmm.

 

(He zips the suitcase.)

 

WILLOW : That's your solution?

OZ : That's my decision.

WILLOW : Don't I get any say in this?

OZ : No.

 

 

I grant you that Wild at Heart really makes Oz look like a thorough-going jackass, IMO (I think I once counted ten different ways he's a jerk in the episode) and in fact damages the character for me in retrospect, so I'm wary of judging him based solely on his actions in that episode, but IMO there was always a bit of this undertone to the relationship.

 

For example, in The Wish (re him catching her with Xander the previous ep):

 

WILLOW:  What I did... When I think that I hurt you...

OZ:  Yeah. You said all this stuff already.

WILLOW:  Right, but... I wanna make it up to you. I mean, if you let me, I wanna try.

OZ:  Just... You can leave me alone. I need to figure things out.

WILLOW:  But maybe if we talk about it, we could...

OZ:  Look... I'm sorry this is hard for you. But I told you what I need.  So I can't help feeling like the reason you want to talk is so you can feel better about yourself. That's not my problem.

 

I mean, not that Oz isn't the offended party here, not that he's necessarily wrong about Willow's motives in wanting to talk…but still.  He decides, on his own, that he's going to decide the future of their relationship, with absolutely no input from her.  I can't help but compare this to the scorn the supposedly-"haughty" Jenny Calendar gets for telling Giles she needs space in Ted, whereas Oz's unilateralism here is something I've rarely seen challenged.  (And of course, the scale is ridiculously different:  Oz saw Willow having "illicit smoochies", where Jenny was, essentially, raped.)

 

How fortunate that by the next episode (Amends) he's decided it would be okay to talk, after all, and wouldn't you know it, they make progress.  All the way to the point where Oz gets to decide how far their physical relationship should go.  I mean, not that I really wanted Willow to surrender her virginity to the seductive sounds of Barry White  or under the bubbly influence of Sprite on ice, but still…she makes a suggestion, he says no.  Much as when she wanted to kiss in the van in Innocence, and he was like, "well, you're only doing this to make Xander jealous, so thanks but no thanks".  A little less analysis of Willow's motives and a little more responsiveness to her emotions might go a long way with me.

 

Well, that and his not throwing the "fluke" in her face when she catches him with his pants down with Veruca.  As I said, I've got Wild at Heart issues;  I admit that. But JMO.

Edited July 14, 2014 by DAngelus

[KatWay]

The Wild at Heart thing I give you, but the other episode? Oz had just caught Willow full on making out with her male best friend, something that had apparently been going on for a while. She'd been cheating on him, he was well within his rights to reserve time to think about, and no, she didn't have a say in how he should react to this. She just wanted to move on so she wouldn't feel guilty anymore (something Cordelia denied Xander, not that he came across as feeling guilty so much as angry and petulant), and the ball was absolutely in his court. If he had decided he never wanted to see her again, that would have been understandable too.

 

I still disagree that these storylines were designed to make us think of Willow/Xander as the villains, because the show never treated them that way really. The show kept telling me instead how Xander was the heart of the group and saw more than others (which, lol, nobody could be as selectively blind as Xander IMO) and Willow's misdeeds culminated in an episode where we were supposed to feel super sorry for her because her friends were theoretically unreceptive towards her.

[Sarah D. Bunting]

 

She'd been cheating on him, he was well within his rights to reserve time to think about, and no, she didn't have a say in how he should react to this. She just wanted to move on so she wouldn't feel guilty anymore (something Cordelia denied Xander, not that he came across as feeling guilty so much as angry and petulant), and the ball was absolutely in his court.

Agreed -- and I'm not unsympathetic to Willow feeling like she'll crawl out of her skin if she can't Fix Things Right Now Yesterday, either, but on top of cheating on Oz, she wants him to move on at her pace, not his own. Again, I get it, but he's right to draw the line.

 

"Wild At Heart" is a different story and I almost can't count anything that Oz does in that episode as "canonical Oz," because it's so obviously an attempt to make the audience less upset that the character is getting written off by turning him into a dillhole who actually thinks that Manic Pixie Try-Hard Veruca is the shizz. Character assassination that treats us like we're dumb to boot. Not cute.

[pootlus]

Didn't Joss actually say later that he deliberately had Oz portrayed as a douchebag to get back at Seth Green for leaving, or am I just imagining that bit?

 

As for relationships, I was a huge B/A shipper back in the day.  I still think Gellar and Boreanaz had stellar chemistry, but I'm fifteen years older now and a bit past the bad boy/vampire thing.  I think Riley might have worked - eventually - had they taken it slower and given Marc Blucas more to work with (his couple of snarky lines were great).

 

I'm trying to remember what 'happened' in S8 (the comic) but my recollection is that it's a hot mess, Buffy sleeps with another girl despite years and years of it being established that she's not bisexual (so it comes off as a cheap thrill thing), and sleeps with both Spike and Angel again.  I can certainly see why a lot of people like to pretend that S8 doesn't exist.

[Loandbehold]

 

Didn't Joss actually say later that he deliberately had Oz portrayed as a douchebag to get back at Seth Green for leaving, or am I just imagining that bit?

I never heard that, which doesn't mean it didn't happen. I do know that Seth Green did commentary with Joss on either an early season 4 episode, or the one where he returns (and now episode names are escaping me).

[Erratic]

Seth Green appeared in 'Restless' months after filming his departure, so I doubt that there were any hard feelings.

Angel and Buffy doesn't hold up as a relationship so well all these years later. I remember how devastating 'I Will Remember You' was on Angel, especially given Buffy's godawful relationship with Riley, but by Season Seven of BtVS, I was agreeing that Buffy needed to be cookie dough for a lot longer. It seemed that whilst Angel matured immensely over the 8 years, Buffy regressed.

I used to be a huge Tara/Willow fan, but again, we see Tara mature at a much faster rate than Willow. I don't discount the fact that they might have lasted and grown together after the split if it weren't for that pesky magic bullet, but, Willow's relationship in Season Seven shows that without Tara, she doesn't know how to be in a grown up relationship, IMO.

[Eidolon]

The main reason I liked season 8 was how they could explore other stories that weren't available to the show due to budgetary restrictions. I also liked how the characters struggled with the fallout from bad decisions, and the ton of ambiguity that it seemed everyone carried around. I like conflicted characters, and there sure was that. Also, Joss's 'voice' came through loud and clear for me, and it was a joy to get new stories for my core four and more. 

[Dianthus]

Cobalt Stargazer: As for the AR, it goes back to my point. Spike's been telling her "stop me," and, when he almost goes too far, she does. Plus, he doesn't go to her with any intent to rape. He tries to talk to her, she tries to shut him down (as usual), and things get out of hand. A crime of passion is still a crime, but he doesn't go through with it, realizes he's made a terrible mistake, and undertakes a Hero's Journey. The AR is a metaphor and your opinion is only that, an opinion.

Spike will sacrifice himself @ the end of s7 so Buffy can step into the light. It's also the reason he didn't try to find her again until much later.

Angelus was straight-up evil and never did anything good for anybody. By the time s6 rolls around, Spike has acted as Buffy's ally and been accepted as part of her Family. At the end of Intervention (after he's been tortured, FFS) she tells him, "...What you did for Dawn and me, that was real. I won't forget it."

Edited July 29, 2014 by Mya Stone
Removed inflammatory comment.

[Poppy royal]

Am I the only one who ships Wesley and Faith? Their chemistry In season four of angel was one of the highlights of the whole season and out of everyone I think wes fits more with faith then fred. I think fred/gunn had more chemistry.

[amensisterfriend]

As for platonic relationships, nothing can beat Buffy/Giles

 

Amen! Pretty much all the relationships among the 'core four' remain my favorites :) 

 

My view of the show's relationships has changed a lot over the years due probably to my own experiences and my jaded perception of the way Joss Whedon (and, to be fair, TV in general!) depicts romance. 

 

Buffy/Angel was the very first TV couple I ever fell in love with. I "shipped" them way before anyone used the term "shipped" :) And they'll always have a piece of my sappy heart, but now I find some of their angst excessive and exhausting and wish they'd been allowed to be happier a little more often. I think I'm also influenced by Buffy's appearances on Angel, which weren't generally a success for me and made me start to slightly doubt their chemistry and connection. 

 

Similarly, while I loved Cordy/Xander when I first watched the show and my heart still lifts in scenes like the one we get at the end of Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered, I've come to find the perpetually bickering, 'opposites who don't even especially like and respect each other but attract anyway' trope a lot more annoying now than I used to. 

 

I'm mostly indifferent to Buffy/Riley. I think they have little to no romantic chemistry and I realllly hate the Riley/Buffy stuff in S5 (which I guess makes sense since I dislike nearly every aspect of S5 more than most fans do!), but I think I appreciate what the writers were going for here more than I used to. At times I even find him slightly endearing...SLIGHTLY :) Maybe it would have helped if I found the actor who played Riley a little more dynamic and charismatic. 

 

I still hate the Xander/Willow 'tryst' in S3 for myriad reasons I've already bored you guys with! If they HAD to do a romance among the core four, I'd actually have preferred Xander/Buffy...and, yes, I realize that opinion puts me in a tiny minority :) 

 

I really want to love Willow/Tara for a variety of reasons, but even before I started to find their dynamic a little dysfunctional,  I just didn't think they had any chemistry. AH never sold me on being genuinely in love with Tara or even romantically attracted to her. Their romance just always felt imbalanced to me, with Tara being far more into Willow than she was into Tara. 

 

Giles/Jenny is another one I wanted to root for but just couldn't muster up any investment in. Jenny Calendar always came across as kind of snotty and cold to me, and I could never shake the feeling that she felt like she was doing Giles a major favor by deigning to date him. 

 

Xander/Anya becomes really tiresome for me from about S5 onwards, and I often see them as another example of a couple who doesn't especially LIKE each other or connect very well, but I was pleasantly surprised to see that I actually do like a lot of their scenes in S4 a lot. 

 

Are there any romantic relationships that didn't exist in reality but which you guys might have wanted to see, even if just in fanfic rather than onscreen?! I think a Faith/Spike coupling once they were both at least semi-reformed could have been interesting. And Giles with a slightly older looking Anya intrigues me more than I should probably admit ;) 

Edited October 16, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[lembergwatcher]

So saaaad...

[lembergwatcher]

[Halting Hex]

Hey, I'm with you on the W/X front…but I can't stand Aubrey "Drake" Graham, so you're not exactly making your strongest case there, at least from my p.o.v.  Just saying.

[lembergwatcher]

OK, I got it :) There's only two of those anyway.

Edited September 11, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

Okay, so Luke's getting sloppy seconds here, with Darla already having tasted Jesse's "pure" blood, but the Master seems pissed at her and I don't think he did the actual work of turning Jesse, either…so when it comes to "upgrading" the bait, I'm pegging Luke for the specific sire.  And you know what that means…bamp-chika-bamp-bamp!

Just get it while it's good, boys; neither of you survive the episode, after all.

(Actually, I found this one when I was looking for that shot of Vessel!Luke feeding on the Master's arm where even Joss [on the commentary] says that it looks more like Luke is feeding on…something else, but I couldn't find it.  Oh, well.)

[lembergwatcher]

Somehow reminds me of "But she's so cute and helpless" from Innocence...

[Halting Hex]

Vampires!  Always thinking with your teeth…

[Joe Hellandback]

9 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Okay, so Luke's getting sloppy seconds here, with Darla already having tasted Jesse's "pure" blood, but the Master seems pissed at her and I don't think he did the actual work of turning Jesse, either…so when it comes to "upgrading" the bait, I'm pegging Luke for the specific sire.  And you know what that means…bamp-chika-bamp-bamp!

Just get it while it's good, boys; neither of you survive the episode, after all.

(Actually, I found this one when I was looking for that shot of Vessel!Luke feeding on the Master's arm where even Joss [on the commentary] says that it looks more like Luke is feeding on…something else, but I couldn't find it.  Oh, well.)

Yeah, there was definite subtext there but I think entirely unintentional. You should check out Brian Thompson in Fright Night pt2 he's excellent (also one of the punks at the beginning of The Terminator). 

[lembergwatcher]

Edited September 13, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[lembergwatcher]

Well, recently I have some sort of a dilemma: which couple to declare the hottest and the one, that represents the Buffyverse in all its glory: Lyle & Candy or Spike & Buffy?

 

Then I will never tire of repeating it...

 

Sad, very-very sad...

 

And something I have always dreamed about...
 

Edited September 22, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[KatWay]

Willow never really had much chemistry with any of her love interests, but I'd say she was probably most convincing with Oz. Her and Xander had zero chemistry, especially considering they were supposed to be all swept up in sexual tension and no offense to Alyson Hannigan but that was NOT her forte, and honestly while I liked her and Tara, they never had much chemistry either. Alyson just always seemed kinda sexless as Willow to me. Actually, in all her roles, now that I think about it. Maybe the Xander/Willow storyline wouldn't have weirded me out so much of they'd actually had chemistry together, but I still skip those episodes every time I rewatch the show. It's just...no. lol.

[Joe Hellandback]

16 hours ago, KatWay said:

Willow never really had much chemistry with any of her love interests, but I'd say she was probably most convincing with Oz. Her and Xander had zero chemistry, especially considering they were supposed to be all swept up in sexual tension and no offense to Alyson Hannigan but that was NOT her forte, and honestly while I liked her and Tara, they never had much chemistry either. Alyson just always seemed kinda sexless as Willow to me. Actually, in all her roles, now that I think about it. Maybe the Xander/Willow storyline wouldn't have weirded me out so much of they'd actually had chemistry together, but I still skip those episodes every time I rewatch the show. It's just...no. lol.

Really? AH was voted 11th sexiest woman in the world? I love Xillow and find it very convincing as I do Woz and Wara. Now

Spoiler

Wennedy? I'm not so sure. 

[Melancholy]

I think Willow had great chemistry with Xander and very good chemistry with Oz. She also had banging chemistry as herself in Vamp Willow/Willow. I think Alyson Hannigan was very correctly playing grief and nervousness and self-loathing sublimating all sexual energy with Kennedy. She was generally smarter than the writers about characterizing Willow. 

Meanwhile I bought that Willow loved Tara to the ends of the earth but it always seemed like a very chaste love. There were a lot of factors turning down the temperature- network interference on physical intimacy, Tara’s unsexy written role as more a mother than a girlfriend, and Amber Benson’s very limited acting skills. 

Alyson and Nick had particularly good chemistry. I love how they played their best friends+ fluking dynamic as humans and then as vampires. There was complete coherence through both portrayals in how they related.  

Edited September 24, 2018 by Melancholy

[slf]

On 9/23/2018 at 3:33 AM, KatWay said:

Willow never really had much chemistry with any of her love interests, but I'd say she was probably most convincing with Oz. Her and Xander had zero chemistry, especially considering they were supposed to be all swept up in sexual tension and no offense to Alyson Hannigan but that was NOT her forte, and honestly while I liked her and Tara, they never had much chemistry either. Alyson just always seemed kinda sexless as Willow to me. Actually, in all her roles, now that I think about it. Maybe the Xander/Willow storyline wouldn't have weirded me out so much of they'd actually had chemistry together, but I still skip those episodes every time I rewatch the show. It's just...no. lol.

I agree. It doesn't help that Alyson Hannigan always uses this baby voice in every role.

Other than Willow's cliched crush on Xander those two always seemed more like siblings. Zero chemistry whatsoever.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎24‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 8:20 PM, Melancholy said:

I think Willow had great chemistry with Xander and very good chemistry with Oz. She also had banging chemistry as herself in Vamp Willow/Willow. I think Alyson Hannigan was very correctly playing grief and nervousness and self-loathing sublimating all sexual energy with Kennedy. She was generally smarter than the writers about characterizing Willow. 

Meanwhile I bought that Willow loved Tara to the ends of the earth but it always seemed like a very chaste love. There were a lot of factors turning down the temperature- network interference on physical intimacy, Tara’s unsexy written role as more a mother than a girlfriend, and Amber Benson’s very limited acting skills. 

Alyson and Nick had particularly good chemistry. I love how they played their best friends+ fluking dynamic as humans and then as vampires. There was complete coherence through both portrayals in how they related.  

Agree on Xander and Oz, never saw it that way with Kennedy? I think Tara/Will was plenty sexy, their whole day in bed towards the end of s6 and Willow confessing she's a 'breast girl' to the amply buxom Tara.

On ‎25‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 4:42 AM, slf said:

I agree. It doesn't help that Alyson Hannigan always uses this baby voice in every role.

Other than Willow's cliched crush on Xander those two always seemed more like siblings. Zero chemistry whatsoever.

I quite liked that, especially at the end of Phases, reminded me of Sandra Bullock in Speed when she says 'Busy'. They did have a sort of brother and sister vibe but then what about their shenanigans in s3?

[KatWay]

On 25.9.2018 at 5:42 AM, slf said:

I agree. It doesn't help that Alyson Hannigan always uses this baby voice in every role.

Other than Willow's cliched crush on Xander those two always seemed more like siblings. Zero chemistry whatsoever.

yeah the baby voice is probably what threw me off. Especially paired with the cutesy overalls etc. And then they tried to portray the Xander/Willow thing as them having this sizzling tension (uhm, where) and being unable to keep their hands off each other (...no). It just didn't work with the characters. I only ever saw them as BFFs/sibling-like with their chemistry.

Tara/Willow were sexy in only one or two episodes IMO, but yeah that might not have been the actresses' faults considering if you blinked you could honestly miss the fact that they were supposed to be a couple in earlier seasons.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎26‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 10:05 AM, nosleepforme said:

I thought Xander and Willow had some wonderful romantic chemistry in the opening of "When She Was Bad". But I think tension & chemistry are things that can be entirely subjective and even in real life there are plenty of couples where you look at them and you just don't see it, but it is there for them and works nonetheless. And honestly, particularly with sexual tension, I feel like that's more there at the beginning of a relationship and fades over time when you start knowing someone.

 

But actually, I think Willow was ironically at her most sexual when she was with Kennedy. I wouldn't say the two had killer chemistry, but out of all of Willow's relationships, that relationship seems like peak-sexuality for her.

I must say I never got that, Kennedy was quite sweet but their time on the couch aside I never got much 'frisson' from them. 

[Halting Hex]

I think a key element may be that with W/K you get to see Willow react to someone actively showing an interest in her, sexually.  Oz was so "cool" that Willow questioned his feelings; Tara was all shy and stuttery.  Xander had his moments, but only now and then.

Whereas Kennedy was "you're hot, and I want you", pretty much right from the jump.  That revs up the intensity, all else aside. JMO.

[Joe Hellandback]

7 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

I think a key element may be that with W/K you get to see Willow react to someone actively showing an interest in her, sexually.  Oz was so "cool" that Willow questioned his feelings; Tara was all shy and stuttery.  Xander had his moments, but only now and then.

Whereas Kennedy was "you're hot, and I want you", pretty much right from the jump.  That revs up the intensity, all else aside. JMO.

Not a fan of hard to get, huh? You're right though, they deliberately made Kennedy different to what we'd seen before. 

Edited September 30, 2018 by Joe Hellandback

[Halting Hex]

Really vicious anti-Willow/Tara piece here:  sunclouds33's livejournal. 97% anti-Tara, but it's all about the relationship, so I'm putting it here, rather than in the Tara topic.

The author continues in the comments, as well.  A rather pity summary is this bit:

Quote

[Tara] may have been somewhat drawn to Willow's S4-6 bubbly, quirkily brash, ambitious personality- but she always mistrusted it because she's internalized from her dad that women are supposed to be quiet and not openly complain or make a show of their sexualities.

I could have been into Tara if these dynamics were treated openly and honestly by the text. However, it all felt like [an] authorial mistake in wrongly construct[ing] what was supposed to be a saint.

Edited September 30, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Jack Shaftoe]

Quote

However, Primeval says it all. Coming down the elevator shaft, Willow told Buffy that she felt guilty for keeping secrets from everyone. It’s up to Buffy to tell Willow for the first time that Willow was going through something huge and she needed that time to figure stuff out. Willow was overcome by hearing for the first time that she wasn’t being a bad person through this process because Willow sure never got that necessary affirmation from Tara.

I love it when people treat inferences as facts. Willow never got the necessary affirmation from Tara? Says who? We only see brief glimpses of the characters' lives. And it's not like Tara can really give Willow affirmation about keeping secrets from other people anyway. I bet if Tara had said Willow had nothing to feel guilty about, the author would have attacked her for being presumptuous and not understanding the deep bond between Willow and Buffy.

Quote

Just, “You got headaches and you’re wolfing down painkillers? In case you didn’t hear me the first six thousand times, no more teleportation spells.”

Maybe Tara was less forceful the first 5999 times but Willow refused to listen, which necessitated the many repetitions? Nah, can't be, let's insist on the worst interpretation.

Quote

I hate how Tara basically always has a problem with Willow on every single fucking issue. Tara takes a stand that Dawn was being treated badly because when the Scoobies found Mr. Boggart’s body in The Real Me. Joyce, as Dawn’s mother, set rules that Dawn can’t be exposed to crime scenes and Buffy quickly shoed Dawn out of the crime scene before she was further exposed to a dead body in accordance with her mother's wishes with yes, a little Buffyesque aggressiveness and big sisterly bossiness.

Tara has the nerve to imply from this incident to accuse the Scoobies wrongly treat Dawn like an outsider from their clique.

Except for the small detail that this never happened, Tara merely said that not being allowed to help with the Scooby stuff might be tough for Dawn. She never said anything about this treatment being wrong.

Quote

I would care about the spells *back-firing* and causing danger. That would make me sit up and pay attention. While the Wiccan oaths may mean a lot to Wiccan Tara, I don't expect it to mean much to non-religion Dawn. But in the world of Tara, since Tara is a Wiccan than WE’RE ALL WICCANS.

Or, you know, the writers never bothered to distinguish between witch and wiccan, so making it all about religion is a little silly.

Oh, and now we are criticizing Tara for calling Buffy boinking Spike nuts? Yes, that's enough for me. Too much misrepresentation of the facts to make Tara look as bad as possible.

[Halting Hex]

34 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

I love it when people treat inferences as facts. Willow never got the necessary affirmation from Tara? Says who?

Well, Willow clearly needs to hear this from Buffy, which means that either

a) Tara didn't give Willow the necessary affirmation, or

b) Willow found Tara's affirmations unconvincing, or

c) Willow needs constant affirmation.

IMO, neither "a" nor "b" makes Tara and the W/T relationship look good, and "c" seems less likely because we don't see Willow seeking further affirmation, so I don't think the writer is that far wide of the mark, IMO.

[KatWay]

3 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

Well, Willow clearly needs to hear this from Buffy, which means that either

a) Tara didn't give Willow the necessary affirmation, or

b) Willow found Tara's affirmations unconvincing, or

c) Willow needs constant affirmation.

IMO, neither "a" nor "b" makes Tara and the W/T relationship look good, and "c" seems less likely because we don't see Willow seeking further affirmation, so I don't think the writer is that far wide of the mark, IMO.

but I mean, Willow was keeping those secrets from Buffy, not Tara, so affirmation from Tara wouldn't have meant as much IMO. Plus it was obviously supposed to be the final bridging of the small rift in Buffy & Willow's friendship, so the scene had to be between them. I think those inferences are a bit of a stretch.

[Joe Hellandback]

11 hours ago, KatWay said:

but I mean, Willow was keeping those secrets from Buffy, not Tara, so affirmation from Tara wouldn't have meant as much IMO. Plus it was obviously supposed to be the final bridging of the small rift in Buffy & Willow's friendship, so the scene had to be between them. I think those inferences are a bit of a stretch.

Absolutely, that's how I always see it.