Regina, the Evil Queen: The Only Happy Ending Will Be Hers

[KingOfHearts]

 

Regina isn't going to apologize to Snow. . The character development and self awareness Regina has shown is in changing her ACTIONS.

Only her actions haven't show self-awareness or remorse. I agree an apology isn't enough to make things right, but it's an acknowledgement of ones own past actions that can lead to real mending. An apology is just the first step. I've never, in the history of the show, seen one moment where I could tell Regina was legitimately regretful for the lifetime of pain she had caused Snow. She's realized Snow isn't an evil person I think, but she hasn't felt sorry for what she did to an innocent, caring person who's only shown love and compassion for her.

 

She can do nice things for Snow, but there is still a past to deal with before the future can be taken seriously. I believe Regina still believes she wasn't in the wrong at all. In short, the apology is just a manifestation of what she really needs - the realization that actions hurt others.

Edited September 20, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FavFable]

She apologized to Belle and Henry so obviously she realizes her actions hurt others.

 

She's realized Snow isn't an evil person I think, but she hasn't felt sorry for what she did to an innocent, caring person who's only shown love and compassion for her.

I disagree with this. Having Regina kill her mother hardly shows "love and compassion". It takes two to fight and Snow was as willing as Regina. She will never apologize to Snow because she feels Snow is equally responsible for the animosity between them, and she will never regret the actions that gave her Henry. The fact that she changed her behavior shows she has self awareness. Her actions have shown she has changed. She gave up Henry to save Emma, Henry and SB. She saved Snow and Charming because Snow asked her too. She could have let them both die. Both of these actions show remorse and a determination to be a better person.

[Mari]

Really, I thought she had fought Zelena to prevent her from taking the Charming's baby? He called her a hero before that?

Maybe he just knows. The way he called Emma a "savior" months before she saved anything.

Regina isn't going to apologize to Snow. . The character development and self awareness Regina has shown is in changing her ACTIONS.

Saying your sorry means nothing when you don't change the behavior. We saw that in the finale with Rumple.

Regina's actions also include stating completely truthfully that she does not regret any of her actions--that she's completely okay with everything she's done, because it meant she got what she wanted.

 

No, regretting her actions does not mean she would regret Henry.  Adults are capable of feeling bad about pain they have caused while simultaneously being grateful that something good happened as a result. 

 

Yes, she has done things that are helpful to the Charmings--saving the baby, for example.  However, since she has not apologized, and does not seem to recognize that the feelings of others are actual, valid things that she should take into consideration (apart from Henry, occasionally), another logical reason for her doing things like that is self-preservation.

 

Helping the Charmings meant she was slowing down Zelena.  THis was helpful to Regina, who was the target for Zelena.  It also meant it would be easier to get the Charmings to help her, if she needed it, when Zelena came after her.

 

Basing on her actions alone, Regina hasn't reformed;  she's just gotten more strategic.

[stealinghome]

It takes two to fight and Snow was as willing as Regina.

I disagree. Snow has done nothing but offer olive branch after olive branch to Regina. She never, ever wanted to fight Regina--she only ever has fought Regina in self-defense and defense of others, after Regina turned down Snow's overtures of peace. That doesn't make Snow someone "equally willing to fight" as Regina, it just makes Snow someone who won't sit there and literally let Regina kill everyone she loves without so much as saying boo.

 

Can you point to a time where Snow has persecuted Regina in the same way Regina has persecuted Snow? Because I can't think of a time where Snow has, unprompted, tried to murder Regina and her loved ones. But I can think of a lot of times Regina did that to her. I also can remember several times in which Snow tried to make peace with Regina, and end the fighting, only to have Regina refuse her overtures and continue the fighting--but I don't believe I've ever seen Regina make a peace overture that Snow refused. Can you remember such an instance?

 

The fact that she changed her behavior shows she has self awareness. Her actions have shown she has changed.... Both of these actions show remorse and a determination to be a better person.

Can I repeat my hypothetical question from earlier? Apologies for quoting myself, but:

Here's a hypothetical: say there's someone I walk past every day on my way to work. Some random Monday, I punch that person in the face as I'm walking--and I continue to punch that person in the face every day for the next two weeks. On the third Monday, I stop. Is stopping really enough to indicate to that person that I actually regret and feel badly for what I did? Or does it just indicate I'm tired of punching that person for whatever reason (maybe I broke my hand, maybe it's no longer fun, maybe the cops have started watching)?

How can we know that Regina truly feels remorse for her earlier actions until she says it? How can we know that she's not just motivated by self-interest?

Edited September 20, 2014 by stealinghome

[Mari]

She apologized to Belle and Henry so obviously she realizes her actions hurt others.

Not really.  She's only (barely) recognized that, yes, Henry is an actual person with feelings, too.

 

She didn't with Belle at all.  Belle demanded that apology before she would help Regina.  Regina's response did not sound sincere, and her body language looked annoyed.

 

That's not recognizing someone's pain.  That's humoring the person you think is mostly an idiot but has the information you want. 

[Amerilla]

I'm not sure how to parse Regina's apology to Belle. In some ways, it seemed like it was simply *less* blatantly insincere than Hook's. Belle had to demand it, and made clear Regina wasn't going to get her to help any other way. But Regina also could have just poofed Belle out of her way rather than uttering any kind of "I'm sorry." Instead, she seemed to be reaching towards genuine emotion. (Whether she yet understands that locking an innocent person in one cell or another for almost 30 years just in case they're useful as a pawn - or cursing them to act like a tramp just to get under someone else's skin - is wrong, well, that's a different kettle of fish.)

I think it was more significant that she (off-screen) gave the Dagger to Belle rather than keeping it for herself. It's more of an acknowledgement that Belle (and Rumple, for that matter) are human beings than Regina generally sees.

[ShadowFacts]

 

I disagree. Snow has done nothing but offer olive branch after olive branch to Regina. She never, ever wanted to fight Regina--she only ever has fought Regina in self-defense and defense of others, after Regina turned down Snow's overtures of peace. That doesn't make Snow someone "equally willing to fight" as Regina, it just makes Snow someone who won't sit there and literally let Regina kill everyone she loves without so much as saying boo.

 

Can you point to a time where Snow has persecuted Regina in the same way Regina has persecuted Snow? Because I can't think of a time where Snow has, unprompted, tried to murder Regina and her loved ones. But I can think of a lot of times Regina did that to her. I also can remember several times in which Snow tried to make peace with Regina, and end the fighting, only to have Regina refuse her overtures and continue the fighting--but I don't believe I've ever seen Regina make a peace overture that Snow refused. Can you remember such an instance?

In fact, Snow spared Regina from execution.  Regina certainly did not do the same. 

[Rockybeach]

She apologized to Belle and Henry so obviously she realizes her actions hurt others.

I disagree with this. Having Regina kill her mother hardly shows "love and compassion". It takes two to fight and Snow was as willing as Regina. She will never apologize to Snow because she feels Snow is equally responsible for the animosity between them, and she will never regret the actions that gave her Henry. The fact that she changed her behavior shows she has self awareness. Her actions have shown she has changed. She gave up Henry to save Emma, Henry and SB. She saved Snow and Charming because Snow asked her too. She could have let them both die. Both of these actions show remorse and a determination to be a better person.

I don't know if Regina thinks Snow is equally responsible, but I do agree that Regina will never regret the curse because it gave her Henry.

I think accountability is a joke on Once.

 

I loved that scene you mentioned with Snow and Charming. Snow asking Regina to save Charming, putting her complete trust in Regina. I think it shows how much Snow has moved on from the past, and how much faith she had in who Regina had become. It was also a big moment for Regina. She had the chance at revenge. She had Snow's heart in her hand. She could have been free of the Charming's, but instead she saved them. Great moment.

[FavFable]

I have never liked Snow and Regina's relationship. In fact I hated their scenes together for the first 2 seasons. It was a little better in season 3. I thought Regina was taking a risk in the scenes you mentioned. If she had split Snow White's heart (at her request) and it failed and both Snow and Charming died, Regina would have been blamed.

 

I did like Regina's conversation with Tinkerbell in the cave. I also loved Regina taking out her heart and offering it to Tinkerbell.. I thought their interactions were very interesting.

Edited September 21, 2014 by FavFable

[Dani-Ellie]

I don't know if Regina thinks Snow is equally responsible, but I do agree that Regina will never regret the curse because it gave her Henry.

 

My problem with Regina's "I regret nothing because it got me Henry" stance is that feeling remorse and regret over the curse and being grateful Henry came into her life are not mutually exclusive. The world isn't that black-and-white. She can still be over the moon that she has Henry while feeling sympathy and empathy for the countless innocent lives she destroyed to get him, especially considering casting the curse was never about finding Henry for her. Casting the curse for her was vengeance, pure and simple, and the fact that her machinations got her Henry is a silver lining in a very dark cloud.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Mari]

My problem with Regina's "I regret nothing because it got me Henry" stance is that feeling remorse and regret over the curse and being grateful Henry came into her life are not mutually exclusive. The world isn't that black-and-white. She can still be over the moon that she has Henry while feeling sympathy and empathy for the countless innocent lives she destroyed to get him, especially considering casting the curse was never about finding Henry for her. Casting the curse for her was vengeance, pure and simple, and the fact that her machinations got her Henry is a silver lining in a very dark cloud.

Yup.  People with active consciences are able to think "I really wish that I hadn't done those terrible things and hurt those people, but I am so very grateful that ___ this happened to me."

 

It's just more creepy proof that really, what's important to Regina, seems to be how Regina feels, and other people are just props to her. 

Edited September 21, 2014 by Mari

[Rockybeach]

I have never liked Snow and Regina's relationship. In fact I hated their scenes together for the first 2 seasons. It was a little better in season 3. I thought Regina was taking a risk in the scenes you mentioned. If she had split Snow White's heart (at her request) and it failed and both Snow and Charming died, Regina would have been blamed.

 

I did like Regina's conversation with Tinkerbell in the cave. I also loved Regina taking out her heart and offering it to Tinkerbell.. I thought their interactions were very interesting.

Really? I liked their relationship. I thought they had potential to get over their past and move forward. As they are starting to do that now.

 

Regina and Tinkerbell. I liked that Regina recognized that she hurt someone that was trying to help her and offered her heart. Not sure Regina actually did anything wrong in her relationship with TInkerbell. TInk was mad that Regina didn't enter the tavern, but what good would have come from going in? None. Regina was basically trapped with the King. She couldn't leave. All that would have happened is Robin would have been a target of the King if he found out about their destiny.

 

I do have to say I am interested to see Tink's reaction if she finds out about Robin, Regina and Marian.

[myril]

Looking back one can think, if Regina hadn't done all that she did there would be no Henry at all (Would there? if Neal and Emma were meant to cross ways, does it matter what Regina did? The pitfalls of claiming destiny). But it would sound a lot different if Regina would say, that she was blessed with Henry despite all the horrible things she did. Maybe that was even what the writers had in mind, but it just did not come across that way. Regina doesn't regret, because it brought her Henry, that's what she said and what made it possible for her to overcome the power of the tree. One can believe, Regina in that moment managed somehow to trick the tree, thanks to her years of terrible deeds and masking her feelings, but that is not that much better, it questions how much of any feelings she shows are ever authentic. Aside that IMO the character works better as having her feelings at best superficially under control and not be so cold blooded. Of course, that conflict of being very driven by emotions while acting more or less cold blooded could make for interesting character drama, but mostly we get snarky entertainment from Regina.

 

I found Regina intriguing in season 1, still was seeing some potential in the character during season 2, could even understand a bit the Cora stuff going on, though it was rather awfully written, but during season 3 they finally killed the interest in the character for me. That the show runners seem to be fans of Regina doesn't do the character much good.

Edited September 21, 2014 by katusch

[kili]

If she had split Snow White's heart (at her request) and it failed and both Snow and Charming died, Regina would have been blamed.

 

It's not like anything happens to her when she kills people on purpose (*), so nothing would happen to her if she did at Snow's behest anyway. And if she did get blamed, it's not like she hasn't gotten away with a bazillion things already. It would be just some karmic payback.

 

Regina was reluctant to split Snow's heart lest it didn't work because she didn't want to lose Snow (who she had come to consider a friend) and make Charming's sacrifice pointless. She wasn't concerned about being blamed because she was more concerned about others rather than herself. It showed some real growth.

 

* Okay, a few things happened to her. Greg/Owen tortured her for killing his dad and the people in Storybrooke wouldn't eat her lasagna. If she killed Snow, Grannie probably would not send her a Christmas card.

 

Regina was basically trapped with the King.

 

Forget the King. Toothless Leopold would  probably have sent them a Wedding Gift.  It's Rumple who would have arranged a convenient death for Robin if Regina had gone in (and he probably would have made it look like it was Leo's or Snow's fault). Rumple needed an angry and vengeful Regina for his own purposes.

 

Regina didn't know that at the time, though. She chose not to go meet Robin because she chose vengeance instead. She has nobody but herself to blame for not meeting Robin before he met Marian. Meanwhile, Tink has no business blaming Regina for losing her wings. That's on Tink.

[KingOfHearts]

 

My problem with Regina's "I regret nothing because it got me Henry" stance is that feeling remorse and regret over the curse and being grateful Henry came into her life are not mutually exclusive.

This makes me think of a lot of teen moms. She might regret her decision, but that doesn't mean she regrets her child. 

 

 

Forget the King. Toothless Leopold would  probably have sent them a Wedding Gift.

Poor Leopold. First Cora hides her pregnancy with an ex-lover, then Regina has her own secret with the genie. He should've learned his lesson the first time with those Mills girls!

Edited September 21, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FavFable]

Really? I liked their relationship. I thought they had potential to get over their past and move forward. As they are starting to do that now.

 

Regina and Tinkerbell. I liked that Regina recognized that she hurt someone that was trying to help her and offered her heart. Not sure Regina actually did anything wrong in her relationship with TInkerbell. TInk was mad that Regina didn't enter the tavern, but what good would have come from going in? None. Regina was basically trapped with the King. She couldn't leave. All that would have happened is Robin would have been a target of the King if he found out about their destiny.

 

I do have to say I am interested to see Tink's reaction if she finds out about Robin, Regina and Marian.

I would too, but I don't think it will happen. Based on what they have said the story is,

I don't think Marian will be too involved either

.

 

Did you read

the spoiler about Henry?

if so, what did you think?

This makes me think of a lot of teen moms. She might regret her decision, but that doesn't mean she regrets her child. 

 

Poor Leopold. First Cora hides her pregnancy with an ex-lover, then Regina has her own secret with the genie. He should've learned his lesson the first time with those Mills girls!

Operative word being girls. Maybe if he dated someone his own age. What a pathetic creep.

[stealinghome]

Operative word being girls. Maybe if he dated someone his own age. What a pathetic creep.

Cora was Leopold's age. That didn't stop her from pretending to love him because she was basically a gold-digger, nor from planning to tell him that a child that was not his was his. (Or, later in life, from murdering his wife and tormenting his daughter.) I don't think the non-existent age gap there was the source of Cora's evil toward Leopold....

[Mari]

Operative word being girls. Maybe if he dated someone his own age. What a pathetic creep.

But just because you married a woman younger than you are doesn't mean you deserve to be murdered and your daughter persecuted.

 

Regina chose to marry Leopold.  She got rid of Cora, and then chose to marry Leopold.  A man that would willingly let his thieving conwoman girlfriend go despite her treasonous action, is  not going to question it if his fiancée whose mother just disappeared tells him she's changed her mind.

 

Was Leopold a shiny and awesome husband?  No.  But, Regina probably loses serious wife points for manipulating Sidney into killing him and then persecuting his daughter, son-in-law, and granddaughter.

 

Just because Leopold was not to everyone's personal taste, doesn't make how Regina treated him and his family acceptable.

[KingOfHearts]

Leopold neglected Regina, yes, but it's not like she didn't have options. She wasn't caged up like she'd like her cohorts to believe. She was sneaking around with Rumple, Sidney and Tinkerbell, for instance. Like Mari said, she chose to marry the king. When Cora trapped her, Regina banished her. When she felt trapped by Leopold, she had him killed. Regina was definitely in control of the situation.

 

Regina's wallowing with her unhappy marriage was mostly about not being able to be the queen she wanted to be. The citizens of the kingdom held much more esteem and respect for Leopold and Snow, so Regina didn't have all the power. She had to look for a way to kill Leopold without getting caught, and Sidney was the solution. Once Leopold was gone, she chased Snow out of the palace and usurped the throne.

 

(Now that I think about it - how in the world did she hide Cora's sudden disappearance?)

Edited September 21, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Rockybeach]

I would too, but I don't think it will happen. Based on what they have said the story is,

I don't think Marian will be too involved either

.

 

Did you read

the spoiler about Henry?

if so, what did you think?

Operative word being girls. Maybe if he dated someone his own age. What a pathetic creep.

I agree with you about Leopold, but it's a typical attitude of some to condemn Regina and to defend Leopold's behavior because he is a man. Same reason they justify Hook and Rumple's behavior, don't let it get to you  :)

 

I did read the spoilers and I think that storyline is going to be fantastic!!! I am curious about

what their mission is. I wonder if they are investigating who killed Zelena,

even though it should be obvious.

 

It doesn't surprise me that Marian isn't the story, she never was. Just a

plot device to advance Robin and Regina's story.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Rockybeach

[Shanna Marie]

How can we know that Regina truly feels remorse for her earlier actions until she says it? How can we know that she's not just motivated by self-interest?

The main problem for me is that Regina's actions came from an incorrect attitude, and until and unless she says she's realized that attitude was wrong, changing her actions doesn't mean anything. "Not killing" is pretty much the default behavior for most human beings, so no longer killing everyone who gets in her way doesn't tell me she's good now. Regina's problem was that she blamed all her unhappiness on others and thought that the only way for her to be happy was to destroy the people she thought were making her unhappy. Until and unless she figures out that she's the one responsible for her own happiness, that it's her own response to any bad things that happen to her that makes her happy or unhappy, that sometimes things don't go your way and you have to be able to deal with that, she'll be at risk of relapsing the next time something doesn't go her way. The way the season ended didn't look promising for that. Right now, I don't know why Regina has changed since she hasn't admitted that what she was doing before was wrong. The only reason I can think of is that she knows she'd lose Henry's love if she kept acting the way she was before.

 

She also needs to apologize directly to Snow because she not only wronged Snow, she was wrong about Snow. Snow did not kill Daniel. She didn't intend for harm to come to Daniel. She was trying to help Regina be with Daniel. Even if you want to say that Cora wouldn't have found out about Regina and Daniel and wouldn't have killed him if Snow had kept her mouth shut (which I sincerely doubt), Snow's worst crime was an error in judgment. It is in no way appropriate to go to the extremes Regina went to over a child's error in judgment -- having her father murdered, trying to kill her, trying to kill the man she loved so she'd be unhappy, stealing her kingdom, murdering anyone who supported her and cursing an entire kingdom. Not to mention making all kinds of false accusations about Snow being a murderer and traitor and trying to turn the whole kingdom against her. It's also extremely hypocritical of Regina, of all people, to persecute someone to that extent for making a bad decision, when Regina is pretty much the poster child for bad decisions, even as an adult, and who even as an adult who knew Cora and knew what she was like was manipulated even more easily than child Snow who had only seen Cora's good side.

 

Regina keeps going on about Snow not thinking about the consequences of her actions, but what reasonable person would have considered that telling Regina's mother that Regina didn't really want to marry the king because she was in love with someone else would result in that person's heart being ripped out of his chest and crushed? A more cynical adult or perhaps an abused child might imagine that Cora would have paid off the stableboy to leave or maybe locked Regina in her room to force her to marry the king. Only a member of Cora's immediate family or Rumple, who knew her power and knew what she was like, would ever have imagined what Cora would do. A sheltered child like Snow who'd only seen Cora's good side and who'd had a good relationship with her own mother could never have imagined anything but the mother allowing her daughter to be happy. It's an entirely unrealistic expectation of Regina's that Snow could possibly have considered these particular consequences.

 

Plus, most of the harm Regina has done to Snow can never be undone just by Regina changing her behavior. Yeah, she can stop trying to kill her and stop spreading lies about her, and that's a start, but she can never give Snow's father back to her, can never give her back the first 28 years of her daughter's life. An apology won't undo it, but it would show that Regina realizes what she's done, and it's absolutely necessary for her to admit she was wrong about Snow and apologize for that, especially when Snow has repeatedly apologized to her for her part in what happened.

[FavFable]

I agree with you about Leopold, but it's a typical attitude of some to condemn Regina and to defend Leopold's behavior because he is a man. Same reason they justify Hook and Rumple's behavior, don't let it get to you  :)

 

I did read the spoilers and I think that storyline is going to be fantastic!!! I am curious about

what their mission is. I wonder if they are investigating who killed Zelena,

even though it should be obvious.

 

It doesn't surprise me that Marian isn't the story, she never was. Just a

plot device to advance Robin and Regina's story.

Thanks. I have noticed that. I think what she will have to apologize for is being a woman. Rumple and Hook are just 'misunderstood', never evil. And of course, everyone else is perfect.

 

Do you think 

they will focus on Regina's story while the are catering to the Frozen characters? I think season 4A is going be light for most of the ONCE characters.

Edited September 22, 2014 by FavFable

[Dani-Ellie]

I think what she will have to apologize for is being a woman. Rumple and Hook are just 'misunderstood', never evil. And of course, everyone else is perfect.

 

No, she should apologize to all the people whose lives and homes the curse displaced, she should apologize to Emma for taking her parents from her, she should apologize to Snow for taking her father and child from her, she should apologize to Henry for trying to kill every other member of his family, and she should apologize to every single family member of every single person she indiscriminately killed in the name of trying to achieve her vengeance. (And that's just off the top of my head ... I'm sure there's more that I'm leaving out.) The fact that she is a woman has absolutely nothing to do with it, at least for me.

 

And like I'd said previously, evil isn't a contest. It's entirely possible for all three of Rumple, Regina, and Hook to be evil at the same time. Measuring the three of them against each other doesn't diminish any of their crimes.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Serena]

Let's be real: the fact that she is a woman is why she hasn't had to apologize for things like raping Graham or murdering her husband. While, to be fair, Rumple hasn't exactly been broken up about it either, he has been taken to task a lot more than Regina for spouse-murdering.

[FormerMod-a1]

Given then recent behavior, and since you've been talking in circles for a long time now (which we've been pretty lenient about it), we are locking this thread for the next few days.  It will reopen in plenty of time for the premiere which will hopefully lead to new things to talk about.

[formerlyfreedom]

We're going to go ahead and reopen this topic. Please remember the following.

 

• It's OK to disagree and debate, but keep it respectful; posts that attack other poster's or their opinions will be deleted. If you can't agree to disagree, then don't post, because it WILL disappear. Our number one rule here is "Don't be a dick," and disrespect to fellow posters is being a dick.
• Make your point and move on. Repetition is not our friend. When we see the same thing getting posted over and over, with no forward movement, we will stop it.
• If you want to talk about Rumple and Regina, or Maleficient and Regina, or Pan and Regina, or Cora and Regina, it should probably be discussed in the Villains thread. This is the spot to talk about Regina.
• Use the Ignore feature. It is your friend.

 

If you have questions, go ahead and PM me.

 

Thanks for posting!

[angelwoody]

Let's be real: the fact that she is a woman is why she hasn't had to apologize for things like raping Graham or murdering her husband. While, to be fair, Rumple hasn't exactly been broken up about it either, he has been taken to task a lot more than Regina for spouse-murdering.

Totally agree.  Add to the fact she commits her villainy in fabulous outfits while tossing off snarktastic one-liners and she gets away, literally, with murder.  

[patchwork]

IMO the show made a big mistake in the circumstances of Daniel's death. Snow should have been at least partially guilty if only in her's and Regina's minds e.g. Daniel died saving Snow or to give Regina's later murder of Leopold some justification there's a clear choice to save Daniel or his daughter and Leopold chose Snow. 

 

Regina holding Snow responsible has always been nonsense but it became down right ridiculous when she sided with Cora in the second half of season 2. 

[Serena]

I agree. I think Snow, at the very least, should have blabbed because she wanted Regina to be her mommy. So she told Cora, probably thinking Cora would just lecture Regina and force her to marry Leopold (not thinking she'd go as far as murdering Daniel). Of course, it would still be simply a child's temper tantrum, but at least she would be guilty of something.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Totally agree.  Add to the fact she commits her villainy in fabulous outfits while tossing off snarktastic one-liners and she gets away, literally, with murder.

 

I must concur. If Regina was a guy, then she'd probably be viewed as King George. George isn't very different from Regina at all, and yet he's much less likable as a character. While he seems to be douche-like, Regina is viewed as sassy. I don't really mind that her evil is covered up with character traits, but it can get out of hand when not even one character cares about anything wrong she does. At that point, it's not only to trick the viewer but the other characters as well. 

 

The idea of redeemed Regina is fine by me, but there are far better ways of bringing it to life than just snark and fashion sense. (I like both of those attributes, but they shouldn't be used to thrust storytelling.)

Edited September 26, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[patchwork]

Fandom experience tells me that if male Regina was hot and able to sell an angsty look he would get away with everything too. 

[shipperx]

Regina holding Snow responsible has always been nonsense but it became down right ridiculous when she sided with Cora in the second half of season 2. 

 

 

I could only ever put this down to a serious case of denial.  Regina really should have hated her mother -- and certainly there are indications that in many respects she did/does...but Cora is still her mother.  It was an internal conflict that she tended to turn off and deflect.  (Deserved) anger at Cora got redirected at (undeserving) Snow.  In any logical, pragmatic sense that's crazy.  But somewhere, emotionally (and there can be multiple reasons as to why) it was so much easier to hate Snow than for her to embrace her hatred of her mother.  That's a massive emotional dysfuction.  That's a stupendous amount of deflection.  But it's the only thing that made any sense of Regina's actions for me.  It's a coping mechanism gone seriously, seriously haywire.

Edited September 26, 2014 by shipperx

[Serena]

I could buy the denial, coping mechanism thing - if the narrative and the characters acknowledged it as such. But they don't.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Serena

[KingOfHearts]

 

I could buy the denial, coping mechanism thing - if the narrative and the characters acknowledged it as such. But they don't.

I could buy the whole "Regina's changed!" if she had actually changed somewhere. Redeemed Regina doesn't bother me, but the fact she could revert to evil any time because she didn't have a real switch moment does. It leads to inconsistent writing. It's a guessing game of what hat she's wearing today. Do the writers want her to be evil or good? Hence it's difficult to root for her arc. As long as Regina's state depends on an entity that could change (Henry, for instance), she can't be good stably. All the characters professing she's a hero or whatever are going to be continually disappointed because Regina's redemption has no real leg to stand on. There's this big hole missing between Evil and Good that invalidates the transition.

 

Regina has such a large effect on the show as a whole that when she flip-flops, most of the story and characters do too. That's why all her inconsistencies can be seen from space - because due to the writers, the universe revolves around her feelings. It's not just Regina, but the entire show is affected.

Edited September 26, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

From the 4.01 episode thread:

I love that [Regina]'s not a good person. She is selfish, self-obsessed, self-deluded, childish, spoiled, crazy and wounded. She doesn't value anyone as highly as she does herself. Her narcissistic view of the world allows her to make HERSELF the center of the universe no matter what else is happening and I think that's hysterical.

I don't mind flawed or narcissistic characters, but my issue with Regina now is that it's Season 4 and she still hasn't learned any self awareness. Season 2 or 3, yeah - I could stomach her projecting all of her issues on everyone but herself, but it's dozens of episodes later and she's still thinking "Why don't I have nice things? It clearly must be someone else's fault... like the writer of this story book!" It also doesn't help when Henry says things like "Oh no, she can't go evil! She's come so far!" It just feels like the writers are trying to force the audience to accept her redemption instead of having it occur naturally.

 

Regina watching her Evil Queen persona in the mirror during the premiere was a step in the right direction, but it's still really strange that she refuses to let her own son talk to her about any of this. As a mother, Regina should at least let her son (aka her other verified True Love) into the room while she weeps on the floor.

[Dani-Ellie]

I don't mind flawed or narcissistic characters, but my issue with Regina now is that it's Season 4 and she still hasn't learned any self awareness.

 

This. I have no problem with Regina being full-on evil. I have no problem with Regina being redeemed. But this constantly straddling the line is annoying and tiring and it makes it look like she hasn't grown at all. And if she hasn't grown at all, fine, but I need the show to own that. Basically, don't try to sell me on oh she's changed now if you're not going to allow her to actually change.

[ShadowFacts]

Didn't she say "mirror, mirror on the wall, who do I want to kill most of all?"  Yeah, not progress.  Her "family" needs to stop trying to protect her from herself, and think of their own safety/well-being first.  This is where Dr. Hopper should come in.  Woman needs serious cognitive behavioral therapy, possible drugs, inpatient treatment, halfway house or all of the above.  She is just not getting the nature of her problem.  Seriously disordered thinking.

[Mari]

It also doesn't help when Henry says things like "Oh no, she can't go evil! She's come so far!" It just feels like the writers are trying to force the audience to accept her redemption instead of having it occur naturally.

Yes.  I like all of your post--but, particularly this.

 

I wouldn't mind her being narcissistic, selfish, self-deluded . . . . if the show understood she was that way and had at least a reasonable number of characters and storylines that treated her accordingly.  Instead, we're subjected to Regina being sad because she couldn't kill someone, Regina being sad because people she poisoned were uncertain they wanted to eat something she cooked, Regina being sad because the son she abused doesn't trust her . . .

 

All while the rest of the characters behave "Oh, Regina!  She's so sad!  What if she makes bad choices while she's sad?  That's so tragic!"  instead of allowing natural reactions. 

 

People who just watched Regina burn their mother at the stake, for example, shouldn't be calling and calling and calling her to see if she's okay, or if she needs support.   That she's having a meltdown over a four day boyfriend and people are not eye-rolling or side-eyeing over that at all is, in itself, completely ridiculous.

 

If she's going to be evil, fine.  Have her be evil.  But stop presenting it as "Poor, Pitiful, Regina.  She had to do that because she was so victimized!". Allow the other characters to react to her treating them like she does. 

 

If she's not going to be evil, start showing some actual growth, instead of just repeatedly telling us she's grown, while her victims whinge on and on about how devastated she must be.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Mari

[SilverShadow]

I'm fine with redeeming or not redeeming but if she's gonna, ya know, keep plotting to kill people as her go to when she doesn't get her way, she doesn't then get to play the "waah, why doesn't everything work out for me. People keep ruining my life." card. What happened to "Heroes don't kill."? Gold can't avenge his son, but Regina can off Marian because she lost her boyfriend?

 

If she wants to be evil, or even just mean, cool. But she can't then whine that nobody trusts her or will be nice to her. Being good doesn't mean you can say "No I'm good now." and everyone has to take you at your word. And you don't get a fucking cookie for basic human decency. That more than anything is what drives me crazy. Things don't go her way for five minutes and it's, oh okay I'm evil again. But the next time she decides she wants to be a hero, everyone's suppsoed to support and believe her.

[Advance35]

Where was all this whining over Regina's devestation?   Again I think the main concern was is Regina going to flip into someone we have to deal with again.  Meaning is she going to start hatching curses and the like.   Henry was confident she wouldn't or hoped she wouldn't because he feels she's come a long way from who she was (Henry's thoughts).   Charming tends to think she's a powder keg.   Again his "what's she going to do with the space we give her" line summed up his outlook on Regina, he knows she makes bad choices that have mass consequences and however well behaved she's been lately, she isn't someone he trust to do the right thing.

 

I don't get a poor Regina vibe from the show because we heard her weighing the choice of killing someone and gleefully comtemplating getting a rivel removed from the competition that way.   We saw how she reacted when Sydney went on about how he knew "His Queen hadn't forgotten him" (Great acting there by Lana), she has odd moments of reflection and we consistently see her make her screwed up choices anyway.   Some people find this makes her unredeemable, others (like me) find it endlessly fascinating and entertaining.

 

Snow and Emma have been through horrible things and they don't take it out on anyone, they soldier on through heartbreak and dissappointment in hope that things will eventually be ok.   Regina isn't equipped that way (like a rational, well adjusted adult should be), again there is know doubt who the better human being is, I just don't find either Snow or Emma interesting to watch.   We are CONSISTENTLY reminded of the horrible things Regina's done and we're shown in the present that she's sad, lonely and so on and so forth, one doesn't negate the other, it's up to the VIEWER to decide whether they sympathize or not.

[Mari]

  We are CONSISTENTLY reminded of the horrible things Regina's done and we're shown in the present that she's sad, lonely and so on and so forth, one doesn't negate the other, it's up to the VIEWER to decide whether they sympathize or not.

I'm sorry, but on this point I'm going to have to disagree.

 

We aren't consistently reminded about evil things Regina's done.  The show has never mentioned again:

*  What happened to Graham--either his rape or his murder.

*  Regina manipulating Sidney into killing her husband.

*  Regina separating the Hatter from his child

*  Regina killing child after child by sending them to the witch.

*  Regina trying to kill Emma as a baby

*  Regina burning Snow at the stake

*  Regina massacring an entire village

*  Regina taking away Ariel's voice so she couldn't be with Eric

*  Regina trying to sleeping curse Emma, and missing

*  Regina abusing Henry

*  Regina framing Snow for murdering Katherine

                     and on and on and on, for example.

 

The only reason we've not completely forgotten Regina's evil deeds is because Regina keeps doing brand spankin' new ones, or they give us flashbacks where we learn yet again an entirely new evil thing Regina did.  The characters who are the victims often do not even have a scene where they get angry at her.  Usually, once Regina does something evil, it's not mentioned again after an episode or two--and she's the only character that is consistently true for. 

 

Then, framing the story the way they did in this episode--sad shot after sad shot of Regina, conversations where no one is angry or upset with Regina, just concerned?  That's trying to make Regina sympathetic while ignoring other characters pain-or making them look unreasonable for completely natural anger reactions.    It's up to the viewer whether or not they feel the sympathy for Regina, but that's pretty obviously (imho) what the show is going for.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Mari

[Crimson Belle]

 

Snow and Emma have been through horrible things and they don't take it out on anyone

And you have just summed up the issue.  Snow and Emma should at least want to take it out on the person who caused the horrible things, that being Regina.  Instead, they coddle her, apologize to her, and try and help the woman who caused their lives to be utter shit and who literally destroyed hundreds (thousands? hundreds of thousands?) of lives.  At best, Regina should be a pariah, free only because they can't figure out how to hold her.  Instead, they invite her over for holidays.

[KingOfHearts]

Her character is so stagnant. She can't go full-on evil, but she can't be redeemed either. It just flip flops and toes a line. I'm happy with either choice, but I'm sick of being constantly baited for both. I'm tired of "sympathizing" for her. She always digs her own holes, only to fall in them. It's tediously monotonous. It eats up precious screen time that could be used for far more productive character moments. We did not need long shots in the S4 premiere of her just being upset. It's like the show is hitting me with a baseball bat to drive home how pitifully sad she is. 

 

I'm fine with the Charmings eventually forgiving her because it's in-character for them, and I can see Emma attempting to work things out with her because of Henry. But, it's come to the point where they're just being naively stupid about it. Regina could be plotting to murder the whole town for all they know. I don't know how they can sleep wondering if she'll go evil again. They're putting everyone else's safety at risk in order to keep Regina happy, and that's not the "good" thing to do. To be frank, it's wrong. Couldn't they at least neutralize her? Squid ink, kiss curse, magic prison?

Edited September 29, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[shipperx]

I could buy the denial, coping mechanism thing - if the narrative and the characters acknowledged it as such. But they don't.

I don't think it requires the show to acknowlege it for it to still be a motivating factor.  Not everything has to be explicit to be a valid interpretation.

 

I don't get a poor Regina vibe from the show because we heard her weighing the choice of killing someone and gleefully comtemplating getting a rivel removed from the competition that way. We saw how she reacted when Sydney went on about how he knew "His Queen hadn't forgotten him" (Great acting there by Lana), she has odd moments of reflection and we consistently see her make her screwed up choices anyway. Some people find this makes her unredeemable, others (like me) find it endlessly fascinating and entertaining.

Snow and Emma have been through horrible things and they don't take it out on anyone, they soldier on through heartbreak and dissappointment in hope that things will eventually be ok. Regina isn't equipped that way (like a rational, well adjusted adult should be), again there is know doubt who the better human being is {...} We are CONSISTENTLY reminded of the horrible things Regina's done and we're shown in the present that she's sad, lonely and so on and so forth, one doesn't negate the other, it's up to the VIEWER to decide whether they sympathize or not.

I like this.

 

Generally, I tend to view the storytelling methods on Once to be something other than realistic... and not being bothered by that.  It's a rif on fairytales and thus a lot of the time it tends to go more thematic even fable-istic than realistic.  It's not realistic drama to begin with. 

 

I also think that considering any question of current Regina as "she isn't redeemed when she does X"  is a different question than "is she redeemable?".   I don't expect Regina to behave as if she is redeemed.  She is not redeemed.  For one thing, the story is on-going. There may be incremental progress and/or backsliding, but she's a long, long way off from being redeemed (and so shall she remain until some projected end-date).  And I don't really expect her to BE redeemed any time soon.  It's basically her story.  When setting up story arcs, there's a character's primary internal conflict built into characters. As frustrating as it may be, Emma is going to continue to struggle with walls,  Rumps is still a power addict, and Regina is still narcissistic in her choices and behavior.  I want/expect growth from each of the characters, but once they stop having their central issue that was created for their character, the show either has to come up with a new internal battle (which is tricky writing to pull off and thus may be more than Once can handle) or the character gets shelved for lack of story because writers have nothing to then do with them.  

 

At any rate, Regina isn't redeemed.  Despite words being flung about (especially by Regina) that she has been, the very fact that she flings it about as a shield says that she is not redeemed.  But... I don't really expect her to be.  It's an ongoing process and she's still in the early stages of it (at best!).   She isn't going to be redeemed without a hell of a lot more work and a few epiphanies about empathy and her place in the universe as not being the center of it.  And, honestly, maybe she never will be redeemed.  Maybe she's doomed to fail by her narcissism, but I think it's the conflict driving the character. She isn't redeemed now.  The story is ongoing, and conflict is the engine of story.  As long as they need her 'evil' to drive her plot, she cannot reach some definitive state of 'redeemed'  (if there even is such a thing.  Redemption is a great goal, but it's never a constant, immutable end point.)

Edited September 29, 2014 by shipperx

[KingOfHearts]

 

Despite words being flung about (especially by Regina) that she has been, the very fact that she flings it about as a shield says that she is not redeemed.

Regina doesn't believe she's redeemed, she hasn't said so. She has said she's worked hard to be where she is now, but in the premiere she clearly stated she's still a monster and a villain. The only people denying Regina's evilness are the people around her, including but not limited to, Robin, Henry, Snow, and Emma.

 

Regina's not redeemed, and that's truly fine for her not to be. In fact, she works great as a grey character, (See: 3A) but the show is trying to convince me I should feel sorry for her. Instead of letting her be fun to watch, they're focusing on crying drama. It gets boring fast because of how shallow it is.

 

I'd rather they devote her screentime to her sassy evilness than her tears. 

Edited September 29, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[patchwork]

I don't care if Regina's redeemed or not I just need the other characters to react to the former Evil Queen appropriately. 

[KAOS Agent]

My biggest problem with Regina isn't whether or not she's been redeemed, it's that they make every other character on the show's actions revolve around Regina and her drama. If Regina wants to go off and cry or plan evil or whatever, that's fine, but don't give me scenes of Emma, Henry, Snow, et al. worrying or angsting about Regina instead of living their own lives. How many Emma scenes in the premiere did not invoke the name Regina? I can think of one and that one involved an Evil Snowman and action, action, action with very little dialog. This is where my Regina issues crop up. 

 

I love the Evil Queen. I loved the diabolical Mayor Mills. I can even handle watching snarky Regina. I cannot handle watching everyone else's scenes being all about Regina at the same time. These characters need to be able to have lives that are not also about Regina.

Edited September 29, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[KingOfHearts]

If time travel is on the table, why doesn't she just go back in time to kill young Snow before she could tell Cora about Daniel? She would so do that! She doesn't give a flip about maintaining the timeline unless it negatively affects her. I'm surprised this idea hasn't come up in her psychotic delusions.

Edited September 29, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

If time travel is on the table, why doesn't she just go back in time to kill young Snow before she could tell Cora about Daniel?

Or, you know, go back in time to prevent her mother from killing him in the first place. But obviously none of that was Cora's fault, right Regina?

 

Regina probably didn't even think of that alternative you suggested though, since she's basically acting like a 5-year-old playing with a new shiny toy. Sure, she liked her Daniel teddy bear for a long time, but now that someone took her brand new Robin action figure, she's going to cry for days and days. And if you try and give her back the old teddy bear, she'll just whine and complain because apparently the Tinkerbelle Marketing & Advertising Agency promoted the Robin action figure as the only toy in the market that will give you a happily-ever-after playtime.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Curio

[stealinghome]

Brought over from the Media thread:

If Parilla is supposed to be playing her character to make us sympathetic, then she's worse than Gilmore.

I've actually long thought that part of the problem with Regina--and I grant that there's been just horrid writing for her--is that Parrilla tries too hard to make Regina sympathetic (largely because she's not objective about Regina and obviously really wants to see her redeemed/get a happy ending). Robert Carlyle has kept Rumpel somewhat coherent as a character despite also having some bad writing because he understands that Rumpel is a gray character and gets that Rumpel's "redemption" attempts have to be inauthentic, so that it makes character sense when Rumpel goes back on them. But Parrilla wants so badly for Regina to be redeemed that she goes all-out in playing Regina's "redemption" moments, which is part of what gives me mental whiplash when like two scenes later she's back to plotting murders and enslaving people. If Parrilla was a little more objective about the character and throttled back in some of those moments, it might go a long way. (Also, I would point my fingers at the directors, too. They should be telling her to play Regina's "redemption" moments more cagily and gray-ish, since they're obviously not sticking. Also, of course it goes without saying that the horrid writing is mostly to blame here.)