Spoiler Discussion Thread: The Final Countdown

[KenyaJ]

2 hours ago, tv echo said:

Echo Kellum Teases an Unexpected Return to Arrow
By AARON PERINE - August 9, 2019 
https://comicbook.com/dc/2019/08/09/echo-kellum-teases-an-unexpected-return-to-arrow/ 

It's hilarious how they wrote an entire article about Curtis coming back when Echo's caption says his return doesn't have to do with acting. One of his friends commented on his post by congratulating him and calling him, "Mr. Director." 

[tv echo]

Mia on Lian Yu in 803? Or is KM still shadowing? ...

I've changed my mind about who I think will be the returning guest star in 803. I originally thought that Matt Nable would be the guest star since 803 is supposed to be another ode to S3. However, SA has also said that 803 is "just all about family."

Therefore, I now think that 803 will bring back Nyssa al Ghul and Talia al Ghul, because there are a lot of loose ends there, like the al Ghul sisters' relationship to each other, Talia's relationship to Oliver, and how Nyssa ends up training Mia.

Edited August 11, 2019 by tv echo

[way2interested]

1 hour ago, tv echo said:

Mia on Lian Yu in 803? Or is KM still shadowing? .

If KM is hanging out with Maya, then she's in Los Angeles.

[Featherhat]

That doesn't look like the Lian Yu location but it's possible they were there in the photos of KC directing.

I could see both al Guhl sisters coming back, there a lot of possibility there, though I don't really need a scene of Oliver asking Nyssa to take care of them when he dies or anything. Felicity is perfectly capable of contacting Nyssa and asking for toddler self defence lessons. I wouldn't mind Nyssa in the FFs though.

[Trisha]

[Featherhat]

Every time they talk about the final scene and how it's unexpected or something they have to work up to I get nervous, like what they heck did MG come up with during his morning meditation? Do they need a lot of actors back or something? A lot of CGI?

Edited August 12, 2019 by Featherhat

[tv echo]

[RS3]

5 hours ago, Featherhat said:

Every time they talk about the final scene and how it's unexpected or something they have to work up to I get nervous, like what they heck did MG come up with during his morning meditation? Do they need a lot of actors back or something? A lot of CGI?

There are two theories about this and to the surprise of nobody, one is from comic book fans while the other is from Felicity fans. Obviously, there's the possibility that the final scene includes Felicity therefore they can't make it happen unless Emily wants to come back. Others speculated that they're trying to close the show with some kind of Justice League big cinematic shot, like Smallville did by the end of the show, and they might need DC's creative license to put them all on one screen? I don't know. I'm not leaning towards either, especially considering how Marc likes to blow things out of proportion to get people hyped.

It might be just a budget thing since he keeps pointing out how they're more financially limited this year. 

Edited August 12, 2019 by RS3

[Featherhat]

I was going with neither. We know they want Felicity back for some scenes but the way MG and SA were talking about it, it didn't seem like they needed her for that and it didn't come across to be as a big JL or "all the dead people Oliver loved" scene either. Which is why I'm so curious that they couldn't just shoot it tomorrow if they hypothetically had to. 

I was going with "it's a bit weird and "high concept" or "one last gotcha" or something, but now...shrug. 

[Trisha]

On 8/9/2019 at 8:17 AM, tv echo said:

-- SA: "People feel like they have a bead on what's going to happen. I don't think they do... I love reading online theories and watching reaction videos and hearing people opine about the show. Like, there's this youtube channel that's got Pagey, who's awesome - I hope he sees this. Uh, I listen to him talk about the show and he's super well educated on it and every theory that he has about how the show ends is totally wrong. 

I was catching up on Pagey videos this weekend and his main theories about Season 8 is it will follow Oliver becoming the Monitor's recruiter of heroes on the multi-verse for Crisis (like the Harbinger character in the comics), and that he will likely end up in a paradise dimension after Crisis, which is where Felicity was eventually taken by the Monitor. In terms of how Oliver "dies", he theorized it would be one of three ways: in battle, Barry & Kara "die" during Crisis and Oliver sacrifices himself again to save them, or he doesn't really die but is taken to the portal that Felicity eventually ends up in. He also said that his ideal perfect ending would see all past guest stars and heroes in their superhero suits attending his funeral (like in Endgame) in the present, but then the audience sees him reunite with Felicity in the afterlife/paradise dimension in the future.

So either SA is shooting down the paradise dimension/afterlife theories, or he's lying again.

[RS3]

2 hours ago, Featherhat said:

I was going with "it's a bit weird and "high concept" or "one last gotcha" or something, but now...shrug. 

This is why I'm wary lol. Usually, when Arrow tries to do "high concept" there's zero emotional resonance to the story. 

1 minute ago, Trisha said:

So either SA is shooting down the paradise dimension/afterlife theories, or he's lying again.

It wouldn't be the first time! I still remember when he tried to deny the Tony Stark moment in the season 6 finale or that he goes to prison but it ended up being... exactly that. I would mention the olicity baby but it was barely an attempt at lying. But in the off-chance that he's not lying, the only other possible outcome I can think of is a reset. A reset I would want is Oliver going back to 722 pre-monitor in the living room. A reset I would prefer is a scenario where he never outed himself as GA but that would erase his s7 prison time, and according to the writers, it was important for his growth or whatever. A reset I would HATE is Oliver going back to pre-island time and he never got on the boat, therefore no green arrow. At least, not earth-1's Oliver. 

[lemotomato]

16 minutes ago, Trisha said:

So either SA is shooting down the paradise dimension/afterlife theories, or he's lying again.

We don't know what was the last Pagey video SA watched, so there's no way to know what theory SA is shooting down. From what I've heard, Pagey really is wrong more often than not. Like when he though Felicity was really dead in the flashforwards and that she turns evil.

[Featherhat]

Even if the Paradise Dimension or similar is wrong, where the heck did Felicity go then? SA has also said if they can't get EBR back at least 7x22 means "they're out there together somewhere" so......

He has flat out lied before or claimed theories were "totally wrong" and it turns out they were 90% right. At SDCC he also said it's not necessarily a dead or alive choice, which leads to a pocket paradise dimension theory. Unless the Monitor portal is the express way to an actual afterlife. 

I could theoretically see a reset as the last scene unfortunately. If it was from right before he was taken by the monitor I think that's fine but erasing getting on the Gambit would suck. So everything we've been watching about this character for the last 12-13 years (including flashbacks) wouldn't have happened and he'd be a douche probably letting himself get pushed into moving in with Laurel and continually cheating on her - except wait- he "remembers" how to be a decent person without trauma now. Nope. Not to mention it would screw up Sara's backstory and the Flash as well. 

I suspect there will be an Endgame style funeral with everyone there, cos duh. 

[way2interested]

16 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

I could theoretically see a reset as the last scene unfortunately. If it was from right before he was taken by the monitor I think that's fine but erasing getting on the Gambit would suck. So everything we've been watching about this character for the last 12-13 years (including flashbacks) wouldn't have happened and he'd be a douche probably letting himself get pushed into moving in with Laurel and continually cheating on her - except wait- he "remembers" how to be a decent person without trauma now. Nope. Not to mention it would screw up Sara's backstory and the Flash as well. 

Lol we don't have to get worked up about hating an ending that hasn't aired or been hinted at yet

[Featherhat]

Oh I know, I went off on a big imagining there. 😉 I'm just really curious about why the hell it's a scene that has a lot of logistics to pull off before they can film it. Actors? GCI? Look of SA? Locations? It probably won't end up being anything like the things we're imagining.

For a moment I was also wondering if after Batman-ing it for 7.5 years they were going to try and do something Inception style. 🤣 Complete their Nolan "homage". 

Edited August 12, 2019 by Featherhat

[way2interested]

TvGuide's interview with Beth

https://www.tvguide.com/news/arrow-season-8-beth-schwartz-interview/

Quote

Why did you guys decide to reveal in the Season 7 finale that Oliver (Stephen Amell) would die in Crisis on Infinite Earths rather than saving that twist for the actual crossover? And how does having that out there affect the direction of Season 8?
Beth Schwartz: I think we decided to do that because it's the story. We didn't want that to be the shock — that he dies. And having that tease at the end of [Season] Seven, we were hoping it would bring everyone back to be like, "How does he die? What do you mean he dies? Does he really die?" You know, because on our show you never really die. So we just thought that would be a great way to end the season basically... And also everyone's theories! Because that's the fun of watching a show and having a mystery — everyone trying to guess what's going to happen.

And speaking of those theories, is it safe to say that there's an element of surprise in store for fans?
Schwartz: Yeah, definitely. I mean, this is Arrow, so you think you know what's going to happen, but you don't really.

How does knowing that he's going to die in this crisis affect Oliver's story arc heading into Season 8?
Schwartz: I mean knowing, having the Monitor tell him that he's going to die, but he's got to do it to save the multiverse — I mean his theme of the season is a hero's sacrifice and every character's going to go through that this season. And this is the ultimate hero's sacrifice, to know you're going to die, but you're going to save so many people's lives. And that's always been the juggle of the hero, of being selfless and putting yourself and sort of your family, in Oliver's case, a little bit second so that you can do the greater good.

At what point in the series did you guys land on the idea of this has to end with him making that final sacrifice? 
Schwartz: I think that's been something that from the creation of the show has been [the ending] from the beginning. I know Marc [Guggenheim] could probably answer this better, but I know that he's sort of always thought that was how the show would end.

And without Emily Bett Rickards in this season, how do you guys plan to honor her character even if we're not going to get to see her as much? 
Schwartz: It's not like just because you can't see her that we're going to forget she was one of our most important characters on the show. And everything Oliver's doing, he'll be conflicted because he had to leave his family. And so that was really, as we saw at the end of Season 7, a heartbreaking and hard decision for him. So we will definitely not just skate past that... That last scene between them kills me. I can't watch it. It's just — it was so good.

How heavily is having to be separated from his wife and child going to hang on Oliver this year? 
Schwartz: It's going to be pretty hard on him. But he's going to have Dig, obviously, to get him through, but it's not easy.

As for Colin Donnell coming back, was that just good timing having him coming off Chicago Med, or was that always the plan to have him back?
Schwartz: Every season we want him back. He's such a great part of the show. We always love having him back. He's such a great guy. And when we knew it was our final season, he was one of the top people. We were like, "We have to get him back for our final season." We had a whole list of actors and characters that we went through that we're like, "We can't end the show without seeing them one more time." So he was just — he's one of those.

And did a large handful of these people you reached out to say, "Yes, I'm down"? 
Schwartz: Yes. Yeah, and it was fun. It's been such — I don't even know how to describe it, but this feeling of nostalgia and also kind of sadness but then happiness and gratefulness and just all these mixtures of emotions for a lot of us who've been doing this for eight years. It's a long time.

How many callbacks should we expect to see in this final season?
Schwartz: We have a lot of callbacks to Season 1 early on in, well, especially in the premiere. The premiere is very much like a love letter to the pilot, and it was so much fun to write. And the actors had a lot of fun as well. There's going to be a lot of that through the season.

You guys have said you're sort of breaking form this year. What sort of storytelling opportunities does that afford? 
Schwartz: It's been so great. I mean when we figured out what we were going to do this season, it was both exciting and also we were like, "Are we really going to do this?" Or "How are we going to do this?" But since we're not going to be in Star City anymore for most of the season, it opened up our world to go to all different places, which then opened our world to revisiting a lot of old characters. Because we're not just in Star City alone. Because Oliver saved Star City last season, and we wanted this season to be — the stakes are bigger than ever. He saved his own city, which we've been waiting for him to do for seven seasons, and now he has to save the multiverse... The stakes are bigger and the world's bigger.

Does that mean that there's not going to be that traditional antagonist that carries you through? 
Schwartz: Yeah, a little. It's kind of a combination because obviously he's going to be fighting someone in each episode, but there's not just one villain. The villain really is Crisis in this season.

Is there any chance that we could ever get a scene between Stephen Amell and Katherine McNamara as Oliver and Mia before all is said and done this year? 
Schwartz: I mean you never know.

Never say never?
Schwartz: Never say never.

And most importantly, are we going to get to see the salmon ladder one last time? 
Schwartz: We'll see it. We're going to see it in the premiere. And I've also tried to do to the salmon ladder, but I was unsuccessful. Not surprising.

[Trisha]

4 hours ago, lemotomato said:

We don't know what was the last Pagey video SA watched, so there's no way to know what theory SA is shooting down. From what I've heard, Pagey really is wrong more often than not. Like when he though Felicity was really dead in the flashforwards and that she turns evil.

I’m going off the videos Pagey did after the finale aired (which is when he really started getting into theories about S8) but before his TCA video when SA gave that interview (although Pagey’s post-TCA vid just doubles down on his paradise pocket dimension theory. Dude is pretty repetitive.)

3 hours ago, Featherhat said:

Oh I know, I went off on a big imagining there. 😉 I'm just really curious about why the hell it's a scene that has a lot of logistics to pull off before they can film it. Actors? GCI? Look of SA? Locations? It probably won't end up being anything like the things we're imagining.

The “everyone showing up for Oliver’s funeral” scene would be a logistical challenge. I’d imagine they’d have to shoot it during the crossover, even if it doesn’t air until ep 10. I could also see MG wanting to revisit the Gambit sinking, which would be tough to reproduce on their seemingly reduced budget. 

[Primal Slayer]

Quote

And speaking of those theories, is it safe to say that there's an element of surprise in store for fans?
Schwartz: Yeah, definitely. I mean, this is Arrow, so you think you know what's going to happen, but you don't really.

[tv echo]

12 hours ago, way2interested said:

TvGuide's interview with Beth

https://www.tvguide.com/news/arrow-season-8-beth-schwartz-interview/

Ugh, not another "love letter" - I almost quit Arrow after watching the pilot the first time around, because the main characters were just so unlikeable back then.

It still baffles me that they keep saying that this final season is going to be a tribute to the series, an ode to past seasons, the show's greatest hits, a love letter to long-time fans, etc., and yet they failed to lock down or try to get even one-shot guest appearances from Manu Bennett and Colton Haynes, not to mention EBR and WH.  These are characters that were so critical to the success of the series - more so than some of their current cast and guest stars.

Edited August 13, 2019 by tv echo

[way2interested]

50 minutes ago, tv echo said:

It still baffles me that they keep saying that this final season is going to be a tribute to the series, an ode to past seasons, the show's greatest hits, a love letter to long-time fans, etc., and yet they failed to lock down or try to get even one-shot guest appearances from Manu Bennett and Colton Haynes, not to mention EBR and WH.  These are characters that were so critical to the success of the series - more so than some of their current cast and guest stars.

To be fair, I think they are trying their best and not just giving up or not trying. For MB, CH, EBR, WH, there's a significant chance of bts issues preventing the actors from coming or being asked (MB might have been a no from DC, CH from his issues last year, EBR with whatever she wants to do if she actually doesn't want to come back, and WH with whatever caused her to leave in the first place). There's only so much they can do, and they are still trying to get people back (getting JB, CD, JS, ST, RF for Tatsu, asking Ernie Hudson, likely still trying to get CH, WH, EBR, etc.)

[tv echo]

Then they should've come up with a different way of marketing this final season, instead of all this false advertising. They've known for more than a year that this final season was coming.

[Mellowyellow]

16 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Then they should've come up with a different way of marketing this final season, instead of all this false advertising. They've known for more than a year that this final season was coming.

False advertising is kind of their motto. Remember the 150th Episode with the OTA cake?

I don't think the way they promote the final season matters either way. The people who will watch will watch anyway regardless of who is in it. I can understand that it is vexing for long time fans who feel like there is nothing in the show for them. A show they devoted years to.

At this point I am hoping they don't do anything to f@ck up the ending of Olicity in the paradise dimension (I know people are hoping for a reset but as far as ship endings go I thought that was a really good one in this day and age)so I'm keeping a wary eye on how things pan out Olicity wise.

Edited August 13, 2019 by Mellowyellow

[way2interested]

8 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Then they should've come up with a different way of marketing this final season, instead of all this false advertising. They've known for more than a year that this final season was coming.

I mean 90% of shows I've seen that know it's their final season promote it that way whether it pans out that way or not. Arrow's hardly an outlier. And you can't just book people a year in advance before even figuring out the breakdown of the story (not to mention a year ago people like CD still had jobs, EBR was set on leaving, CH didn't go to rehab yet, Titans only just aired, etc.). Plus, if they do honor the moments and characters that they can (heck, it sounds like they'll even honor Olicity the best they can without EBR being there), then it's not true to say they aren't really trying to honor the series.

[tv echo]

Here's How Stephen Amell Could Play Oliver Queen Again After 'Arrow' Ends
Fred Topel | August 12, 2019
https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/heres-how-stephen-amell-could-play-oliver-queen-again-after-arrow-ends.html/

Quote

“I don’t want to sit here and say never say never because I’d probably be wrong,” Amell said. “But I do believe in a good clean break. So I’m not saying that I’m never going to pop up again but I’m going to take a minute."
*  *  *
“I really leave that up to Stephen and what he would like to do,” Guggenheim said. “I will say we’re lucky. There are various different mechanisms in place that would allow Stephen, if he desired, to maintain a presence in the Arrowverse. So I don’t want to speak for Stephen but we’re all very much in the same space of we have to launch the new season, we have to do the crossover, we have to bring the series in for a close. I don’t think any of us are really thinking about anything beyond Arrow at the moment.” 
*  *  *
“Look, I stand by the decision that we made,” Amell said. “I think actually midway through season 6 that I actually thought that we were going to end in 7. I think that what we’ve done, and frankly it was really [producer] Greg Berlanti’s idea, having a run of 10 episodes to bookend an eight-year run, stuff like that doesn’t happen.”

Edited August 14, 2019 by tv echo

[RS3]

8 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Then they should've come up with a different way of marketing this final season, instead of all this false advertising. They've known for more than a year that this final season was coming.

Yes, yes, a 100% yes. Nostalgia doesn't equal love letter.  I think it's safe to assume that the 100th & 150th episode are proof they don't know their fanbase. Or they know, but assume that we'll be watching whatever they produce on the off chance that we get a quick callback. The 100th was based on season 1 nostalgia and I enjoyed seeing Oliver's parents again. The aliens, the lauriver and the Ray+Sara of it all still leave a sour taste in my mouth. I understood the point but I did not enjoy watching it simply because of the characters' lack of chemistry together and/or their lack of relevancy to Oliver's story. In the 150th, they spent more time with the newbies than they did with OTA (not a hard task considering OTA's screentime). 801 so far seems like another shot at the 100th episode. I'm guessing our Oliver has to infiltrate whatever earth pre-pilot and morph into "Ollie" again but the problem is Ollie wasn't a character I rooted for until he found Diggle and Felicity. 

[Featherhat]

I don't think it's false advertising exactly. Many former regulars and guest stars are coming back, just not all of them. 

With ones like EBR we know they are trying/have tried to get her back and if she doesn't then it's her decision, as said in interviews. Her contract ended and they can't force her to come back for 2 eps or 2 scenes. Hopefully she will though and they might not announce it, especially if it's a cameo in the finale. And it does sound like they aren't abandoning mentioning Olicity and Oliver's family. Like @Mellowyellow I'm hoping they manage to keep the ending of 7x22 intact for Olicity because I don't think any reset will make things better.

With CH well he had his issues and Roy didn't end up being particularly important last year anyway, possibly because of his availability then. I wish Oliver and Thea could have another goodbye, especially with what was hinted at in the FFs but it doesn't seem likely.

I wasn't a fan of the 100th for a number of reasons, mostly because it was a "love letter" to a show they never actually wrote, though I didn't mind Ray and Sara in it, it sucked that Diggle and especially Felicity got 5 mins screentime. The 150th I really enjoyed the documentary, it should have stayed with it instead of turning into an standard episode with a lot of noobs. 

I am interested in 801 but I'm keeping my expectations low to hopefully be pleasantly surprised. 

[tv echo]

The only two things keeping my hopes alive for an ending to Arrow that I'll like is (1) DR saying at SDCC that he thinks everyone will be satisfied with the series finale and (2) the popularity of KM. If Oliver doesn't marry Felicity no matter what, then Mia doesn't exist. If Mia doesn't exist, then there's not even the possibility of a future spin-off (even though MP has said they're considering another property for their spin-off right now).*

(* Although I suppose they could pull a JDJ/Connor Hawke and have KM play the child of someone other than Felicity, even though she looks exactly the same and has the same name.)

I don't trust anything that SA says any more because he outright lied last year about there not being an Olicity baby in S7.

I also don't trust Beth because her boss is MG, and I no longer trust MG or anything he says/claims, period. (As Rob Thomas has demonstrated to Veronica Mars fans, some showrunners will not hesitate to shaft long-time fans.)

As you can tell, I've very frustrated with Arrow right now.

Edited August 14, 2019 by tv echo

[way2interested]

12 minutes ago, tv echo said:

I also don't trust Beth because her boss is MG

MG's not Beth's boss. They are co-showrunners. It's one of the reasons why I don't think they would ever change things, since Beth really liked the end of 722 and I would doubt that she would be ok with changing or erasing it.

Edited August 13, 2019 by way2interested

[Mellowyellow]

*huggles* @tv echo

I think as an Olicity/Felicity fan I lost the day EBR wasn't coming back for S8.

The show still has plenty to offer other fans but as someone who watched it strictly for Olicty and Felicity I have accepted that there is nothing for me in S8 other than hoping they don't f@ck up 722.

I have had such a peculiar relationship with this show. I pretty much have a SUPER low opinion of it but I LOVE Olicity and Felicity so much and that part of it was better than anything I've ever seen in any other drama/series in all the western/chinese/korean series I've watched. That's why for me it is so hard to come to terms with no Felicity in S8 and move on. Olicity and Felicity were amazing and incredibly outstanding despite me having to wade through a tonne of garbage for it. Like digging through sewerage for a top quality padparadscha! 

[lemotomato]

I would like to point out that none of the worst case scenarios that people worried about last season (Felicity dying in the finale, Felicity dead in the flashforwards, Felicity evil in the flashforwards, Mia not being Olicity’s kid) turned out to not be true, and that predicting the worse based on absolutely nothing so far is unnecessarily stressful. 

[Featherhat]

1 hour ago, tv echo said:

I don't trust anything that SA says any more because he outright lied last year about there not being an Olicity baby in S7.

True, and I think he's way over playing the "it's nothing like any of the fan theories" BS but I do think he thinks the show has a happy ending, in general and if they don't get EBR back then (hopefully) he said Felicity stepping through that portal showed they'd find each other again. Now that might change but it's what he thought as of the ComicCon/TCAs. 

1 hour ago, tv echo said:

I also don't trust Beth because her boss is MG, and I don't trust MG or anything he says/claims, period. (As Rob Thomas has demonstrated to Veronica Mars fans, some showrunners will not hesitate to shaft long-time fans.)

Rob Thomas (and KB) had previously been on record as not liking that storyline very much and preferring Veronica as the hard boiled PI in a noir setting. Not saying this show won't pull something stupid off and try to call it "clever" or courageous" like a reset to pre Gambit or some other 180 turn but as @lemotomato said I spent a lot of the final stretch of last season convinced Felicity was going to die saving everyone from Archer in the FFs. 

[RS3]

1 hour ago, lemotomato said:

I would like to point out that none of the worst case scenarios that people worried about last season (Felicity dying in the finale, Felicity dead in the flashforwards, Felicity evil in the flashforwards, Mia not being Olicity’s kid) turned out to not be true, and that predicting the worse based on absolutely nothing so far is unnecessarily stressful. 

Did people really think that Felicity was evil and dead in the flashforwards? I mean besides the haters' wishful thinking. One thing we can count on with Arrow is the "gotcha" moments. For the same reasons I didn't believe that Felicity was dead in the story arc where she was at the center, I didn't believe the season would end with Oliver's grave without one last gotcha moment. 

34 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

as @lemotomato said I spent a lot of the final stretch of last season convinced Felicity was going to die saving everyone from Archer in the FFs. 

This, I can understand. At one point, they teased it pretty hard when William went in the field by himself. 

2 hours ago, tv echo said:

The only two things keeping my hopes alive for an ending to Arrow that I'll like is (1) DR saying at SDCC that he thinks everyone will be satisfied with the series finale and (2) the popularity of KM. If Oliver doesn't marry Felicity no matter what, then Mia doesn't exist. If Mia doesn't exist, then there's not even the possibility of a future spin-off (even though MP has said they're considering another property for their spin-off right now).*

(3) Stephen Amell (or Beth) would never allow an ending where Oliver doesn't end the show with Felicity, let alone call it "happy". (See his last facebook video). My only concern is the Where, the When, and if the children are part of the happy ending.

[Primal Slayer]

7 hours ago, way2interested said:

To be fair, I think they are trying their best and not just giving up or not trying. For MB, CH, EBR, WH, there's a significant chance of bts issues preventing the actors from coming or being asked (MB might have been a no from DC, CH from his issues last year, EBR with whatever she wants to do if she actually doesn't want to come back, and WH with whatever caused her to leave in the first place). There's only so much they can do, and they are still trying to get people back (getting JB, CD, JS, ST, RF for Tatsu, asking Ernie Hudson, likely still trying to get CH, WH, EBR, etc.)

Colton has already stated that he wasn't asked back for full time so that's all on BS/MG and he was the one who wanted back last season and ended up with hardly anything to do.

[way2interested]

9 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Colton has already stated that he wasn't asked back for full time so that's all on BS/MG and he was the one who wanted back last season and ended up with hardly anything to do.

Maybe CH needing to go to rehab for at least 4 months right in the middle of filming had something to do with not being used much in s7? And maybe the network/studio didn't appreciate paying for an actor, who was supposed to be fully available as per being a series regular, having to sit out during a big chunk of the season because of his own issues? So then they told Beth and MG to not ask him back? I'm not jumping on CH for all of this, but I don't think it's Beth's/MG's fault either here. Beth even made sure Roy got a focus episode in 720 and a big hero moment in 721

Edited August 13, 2019 by way2interested

[lemotomato]

They also only have 9 episodes to work with, most of which will be spent split between the flashforwards (which are going to focus on the kids) and Oliver recruiting heroes for the crossover. Neither storyline requires Roy full time. All we know right now is that CH wasn't asked to come back as a regular. That doesn't mean he won't make a guest appearance. 

I'm actually surprised that anyone besides the flashforward kids, SA, and DR were signed as regulars this season.

Edited August 13, 2019 by lemotomato

[tv echo]

There is no doubt in my mind that Marc has more power than Beth and that he has the final say (as between the two of them). He has been an Arrow showrunner since S1, while Beth started out as a writers assistant on the show. MG is closer to Greg Berlanti (who has more power than the two of them). Even when MG stepped back from showrunning duties in S7, he was still the executive consultant on the show.

I'm a little apprehensive about the fact that MG recently wrote a brand new final scene for the Arrow series finale (after coming out of meditation), which he plans to shoot, barring logistical issues. Beth had no say in this decision. In fact, Marc said at SDCC that he and Beth had been talking a lot about how they would end the series, but that, "in many ways, this scene is almost independent of all those conversations. Um, it's really it's own separate thing."

I can't imagine Beth writing the series' final scene on her own and then saying, 'this is what we're going to shoot,' without running it past Marc first.

But this is just my opinion.

ETA: I don't mean to sound pessimistic. I am still hopeful of a happy ending.  

Edited August 14, 2019 by tv echo

[way2interested]

I would think MG might have more sway because he actually helped create the show, but there's a difference between having more say/sway and then being Beth's boss, which he is not, GB is. Even when MG was a consulting producer he mentioned in a bunch of interviews how Beth was ultimately making the decisions for s7. Him thinking of his own ending independent of Beth doesn't mean that it's automatically something Beth would hate or wouldn't want or goes against what she wants and she just has to deal because he's """""in charge."""" It would likely be something that at least thematically agrees with what he and Beth were talking about, or something he likely talked with Beth about after he wrote it and if she hated it he would have changed it. 

Idk, in my opinion, I don't like pushing the idea that Beth is/was just like this token female in charge who doesn't have any power (which was also an idea circulating a bunch of times during s7 when she was the solo showrunner) and is showrunner in name only while MG was/is this dictator showrunner who makes all of the decisions that Beth just has to take and have no comment on. They likely talk these things out together (Marc never said "Oh, I never ran the final scene past Beth. Actually, I never told her about it. Oh well" He just wrote it. Any scene he writes has to be talked over with his co-producers). She's likely to be the co-writer of the finale even if MG writes the final scene and probably is trying to frame a bunch of the Arrow/FF story for s8 while MG is trying to frame it into COIE and figure out the finale.

[tv echo]

Doesn't this sound like COIE may affect JJ? ...

-- Charlie Barnett: "I'm only on Arrow for a couple episodes... And, you know, it's the last season of Arrow. So I know - I shouldn't say... Literally, I always catch myself in these positions where I'm like about to drop some information, and then I'm like, 'Nah, nah, nah, let's take a second.'" Reporter: "Drop some information." CB: "Nope, not gonna do it. I think Arrow has some interesting things coming up, alright. But, uh, I don't know if I'm committed to the world, let's say. There's a lot of worlds going on in Arrow right now. I don't know if you're up to date, but, yeah."

ETA: I never said that Beth was a token showrunner or that she wasn't a real showrunner with real power. I just think there's a hierarchy of decision-making on the show and, when it comes down to it, GB is higher up than MG, but MG is higher up than BS.

Edited August 14, 2019 by tv echo

[Mellowyellow]

I don't think Beth running the show is any better than MG to be honest. They have both had some good bits and some epic fails.

I did find that in the MG days the Olicity moments were given more time and allowed to breath more. Olicity in S7 was often abrupt with tiny scenes shoved in here and there. It's like they condensed them so Dinah and Rene could flirt and smirk at us. That was on Beth's watch. 

[way2interested]

13 minutes ago, tv echo said:

 I never said that Beth was a token showrunner or that she wasn't a real showrunner with real power. I just think there's a hierarchy of decision-making on the show and, when it comes down to it, GB is higher up than MG, but MG is higher up than BS.

But if MG is higher up on the decision list, why have Beth as a co-showrunner at all? What "real power" would she have in that scenario? Wouldn't all of her decisions be superfluous according to that logic? Or is it maybe that they are both showrunners and ultimately they have to agree on things before running by GB and occasionally there are decisions here and there that each have personal sway on (more for MG since he created the show)?

[tv echo]

^^^ That's like saying that none of the Greg Berlanti-produced shows' showrunners have any real power, if GB being higher up means that those below him have no power. 

Why are we arguing about this? Neither of us really knows what happens behind the scenes. You have your opinion. I have mine.

[way2interested]

1 minute ago, tv echo said:

That's like saying that none of the Greg Berlanti-produced shows' showrunners have any real power, if GB being higher up means that those below him have no power. 

No, it's not, because GB isn't the showrunner for these shows. He's an exec who has final say. The showrunners, Beth and MG come up with the ideas and have the direct power over the ideas for the show.

3 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Why are we arguing about this? Neither of us really knows what happens behind the scenes. You have your opinion. I have mine.

Idk, you brought the topic up with "There is no doubt in my mind that Marc has more power than Beth" to describe why you were bothered about the potential for the final scene and I disagreed. But yeah, we don't know for sure. Agree to disagree.

[Featherhat]

I'm a little apprehensive about this damn final scene and what it might be and we've only heard vague statements about it. 😉

That said, I don't *think* it will change the whole outcome of the show from what had already been roughly mapped out. MG talks about leaving things open to change and he's glad because it meant he left himself open to writing this but it really isn't only his call.

I guess it could end up grander in scope or more ambiguous but I don't think (for example) Oliver was going to have happy ending A in Paradise Dimension with Felicity and now B, he's reset his life to pre Gambit but as a better guy, even though that was the kind of thing I was panicking about a couple of days ago. 😉 At least I hope not. 

Only a couple of episodes? Well JJ's not going to be Connor's main storyline this season then. Let's hope they don't waste CB like so many other good actors. 

Edited August 14, 2019 by Featherhat

[RS3]

1 hour ago, Featherhat said:

Only a couple of episodes? Well JJ's not going to be Connor's main storyline this season then. Let's hope they don't waste CB like so many other good actors. 

Arrow? Nevahhhh 😅

I'm a little surprised too. I thought he was supposed to be the big bad in the flashforwards storyline but it seems like they pulled the plug. We'll see. At the same time, I'm also relieved. Villains need to have a backstory linked to the main character and it's still Oliver's show. But a 2040 Star City spin off would be the ideal place to get Connor an archnemesis. 

6 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

I did find that in the MG days the Olicity moments were given more time and allowed to breath more. Olicity in S7 was often abrupt with tiny scenes shoved in here and there.

MG writes the fluff and the romance well. When it comes to writing Olicity conflict, I want him to stay as far away as possible from his keyboard.  (*Rewinding tape* Using what should have been Felicity's happy recovery for stupid symbolism, having Felicity apologize to Oliver after 520, having Oliver lie again in the last crossover while trying to brainwash us with westallen... and that's just my top 3. 

BS writes conflict resolution better. At the top of my head, I'm thinking about Oliver acknowledging Felicity's trauma while he was in prison. Top notch. But yeah, the pregnancy reveal gave me whiplash. 

[BkWurm1]

6 hours ago, RS3 said:

MG writes the fluff and the romance well. When it comes to writing Olicity conflict, I want him to stay as far away as possible from his keyboard.  (*Rewinding tape* Using what should have been Felicity's happy recovery for stupid symbolism, having Felicity apologize to Oliver after 520, having Oliver lie again in the last crossover while trying to brainwash us with westallen... and that's just my top 3. 

BS writes conflict resolution better. At the top of my head, I'm thinking about Oliver acknowledging Felicity's trauma while he was in prison. Top notch. But yeah, the pregnancy reveal gave me whiplash. 

I wonder if as a man, MG has more freedom to write longer romantic moments without being overly conscious of haters ready to blame gender if Beth were to wallow for a bit longer  in the romance and sappy good stuff.  Just a random ponder on how much pressure BS might face as a female showrunner in ways I don't think men might be second guessed (even if she's the one doing the second guessing before anyone has input).

[Mellowyellow]

@BkWurm1 it is my theory that S3 was MG gone wild on fanfic.

It was some of the soppiest, mooniest, fluffiest stuff complete with a love triangle. I loved it! I felt like he really let loose in S3. IIRC he also had some song that he liked where the lyrics were basically an outline of the S3 love triangle.

[RS3]

2 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I wonder if as a man, MG has more freedom to write longer romantic moments without being overly conscious of haters ready to blame gender if Beth were to wallow for a bit longer  in the romance and sappy good stuff.  Just a random ponder on how much pressure BS might face as a female showrunner in ways I don't think men might be second guessed (even if she's the one doing the second guessing before anyone has input).

I think it plays a part. I remember when she was announced as showrunner and the tweet that was immediately dig up by a certain fandom to invalidate her was about how she would write an entire episode of the olicity wedding. But I don't want to transfer all of the blame on the judgy opinion of boys who view romance as "icky" and fight scenes as "badass", whether it's arrow fans or higher ups. If the payoff is never as satisfying as the level of conflict, then you're robbing your audience. It's storytelling 101. 

[tv echo]

I think this might be for 804, but I don't know if the filming for 803 took the usual 8 business days. Assuming that 804 is an ode to S4 or another past season (though no one has said so), what in S4-S7 might lend itself to this elegant house setting? ...

[tv echo]

Sounds like KC acted in 803 as well as directed it (another SDCC interview)...

ARROW: Katie Cassidy on Her Directorial Debut
Published on Aug 12, 2019, by GiveMeMyRemoteTV

-- On her new costume, KC: "I mean, I was like, 'this is dope, uh, why didn't we do this, like, many seasons ago?' Also, 'can I keep my hair short?' And yes, they're letting me."

-- On directing 803, KC: "I start prep on Tuesday." (That Tuesday would've been July 23.)

-- On whether it'll be easy to direct herself, KC: "I think so. However, I'm not so shuhhh - I think it'll be interesting to do that, 'cause I'll probably - I'll probably just have my First A.D., uh, tell it what I want. And then, once I'm in the scene, let him kinda direct the scene I'm in, after I tell him what shots I have, what I'm thinking, but then try to immerse myself as the actor. I mean, it'll be challenging, but anyone can do it, I can do it. I feel like I can do - you know, I like challenges and I welcome them and it'll be a growing, learning experience. I'm looking forward to it."

-- On why she wants to direct, KC: "I feel like I have an eye for certain things. Um, I really want to - it's just about telling a story through the way - through my eyes. You know, sharing a story through my eyes with the world, um, the way I interpret it. And I don't know why, but I do have like a burning desire to do that. Um, I think also I'm more, again, pictures and stuff, film, movies, storytelling, showing people instead of just - it's another way of communicating, you know, it's like getting - this is my vision, my art, this is what I see and - I don't know, I shadowed Season 1, I shadowed again Season 6, I shadowed Season 7, so I shadowed quite a few times, um, and it's great. I'm excited."

Edited August 15, 2019 by tv echo

[Quark]

14 hours ago, RS3 said:

But I don't want to transfer all of the blame on the judgy opinion of boys who view romance as "icky" and fight scenes as "badass", whether it's arrow fans or higher ups. 

Wow. Does it really bother you if men aren't interested in romance and prefer fight scenes?