S05.E12: The Beginning...

[Camera One]

4 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I expected Jeremiah to kill Barbara as his “message” which would have been a good way to circle back to the tragedy of Bruce Wayne.    

I expected that too.  This show killed off so many people, so it was strange they didn't do this.  Maybe they were thinking of a possible reunion and wanted to continue to use the actress, though they could pull the usual resurrected-by-Hugo-Strange card.

Edited April 28, 2019 by Camera One

[TDT]

To The CW.. if youre looking for a show to fill the void soon to be left by Arrow, here you go.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

On 4/26/2019 at 8:09 AM, meira.hand said:

At first I thought so too, especially in closeups, but then she was standing next to Alfred and Barbara, in the banquet, and I realized it was not the face age that was the problem but the height. While David Mazouz really shot up during the series, Camren Bicondova remaind her short 5' 2" and would have looked like a child next to them. Lili Simmons is 5' 7" and so much more convincing as Catwoman.

As an adult woman who is 5'2" (and somehow has a lot of really tall friends who are over 6' tall), this is a ridiculous rationalization for recasting. I'm pretty sure that I manage to stand next to tall people without looking like a child.

[meira.hand]

30 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

On 4/26/2019 at 6:09 PM, meira.hand said:

At first I thought so too, especially in closeups, but then she was standing next to Alfred and Barbara, in the banquet, and I realized it was not the face age that was the problem but the height. While David Mazouz really shot up during the series, Camren Bicondova remaind her short 5' 2" and would have looked like a child next to them. Lili Simmons is 5' 7" and so much more convincing as Catwoman.

As an adult woman who is 5'2" (and somehow has a lot of really tall friends who are over 6' tall), this is a ridiculous rationalization for recasting. I'm pretty sure that I manage to stand next to tall people without looking like a child.

You are right of course and I did not explain my point accurately enough. Its the combination of Camren Bicondova still almost baby face with her height that would have made her look way too young. After all she started the series at 14 and changed very little when it ended. So for people who have followed her thru the series it would have been very hard to accept the time jump. 

[Florinaldo]

After a rewatch, I would say that it is definitely a computer-manipulated face of Mazouz we see in the last shot of the Batman. The chin and mouth are about the same shape, and since they were showing only the lower part of it, it was easy to get away with it even though it still looked artificial.

In contrast, I understand how it would have been more difficult to achieve the same thing with Selina since she appeared in so much in the episode, full face and body. Make-up might have looked very obvious and CGI not very convincing.. The actress does look very young, like a late teenager, and trying to make her look like a nearly 30-year old version of herself would probably have distracted from her scenes. The other actors already being adults, there were no similar problems with Jim, Penguin, Riddler, Barbara, etc.

Jim's pornstache was funny, for the time it lasted.

The shot of the two villains hanging from a lampost is something one might have seen in the sometimes silly antics of the Golden and Silver Age comic-book version by Bob Kane and Bill Finger, amongst others.

[Kaiju Ballet]

I thought Harvey took the blame for shooting the cop so the cop's family would get a pension (which would be lost if he killed himself) There was a long, lingering shot of the cop's family photo, and it's kind of consistent with Harvey's character.

I kept waiting for Harper to be addressed as "Captain" -- she survived a full decade in the GCPD! There was one other person who I recognized--Alvarez?

Gonna miss this show and its gorgeous art direction.

[WAnglais1]

Oh, well....I had a hate/love relationship with this show. More of the former, really. The show recast Ivy every other episode.

Didn't Gordon have gray hair with the 'stash and then no gray when he didn't? 

A two-parter might've worked better. 

Oh, well...

[LilWharveyGal]

On 4/26/2019 at 5:36 AM, Danielg342 said:

I must admit, when she was in those tights standing on the rooftop Lili's butt looked really good. I think I fell in love...

On 4/26/2019 at 7:57 AM, MarkHB said:

As did Francesca's in the Harley outfit in the bar.  My my my...

Well since we're dipping our toes in the shallow end, I'll add that Alfred in a tux was everything I didn't know I needed in my life.  And I aspire to someday have the guts to go red like Barbara.  Thanks for the memories, Gotham.

[Richness]

I love this bat shit crazy show, even when they foisted horrible love interests and other boring plots upon me. Unfortunately, the finale just felt off to me, and I don't think it was the time jump or the (lack of) old age mage-up that did it.

The two best characters, the Riddler and Penguin, got demoted into sidekick comedy territory. Though I do love how the Penguin slipped into his iconic look. Just wish they had more to do. Maybe it was the rushing of the finale into a single hour that threw me off.

Also wasn't fond of the Joker's final(?) appearance. The melted scarred face might have differentiated him from other Jokers, but it just wasn't right. Also poor Harley. But if the others can come back from the dead, I'm sure being shot is of no concern, at least to Hugo Strange.

I wasn't aware that that was a different actress for Selina while watching it, so I was quite impressed with how they aged her up. Now I'm just disappointed. Loved the red hair on Barbara Sr to inspire the future little miss Batwoman.

Glad to see Lee and Jim still together, though I'm still wondering where the Lee/Enigma thing got lost at. However, Lee's action during the bomb disarming infuriated me and nearly ruined the episode for me. Don't point out that Lee has steady, reliable surgeon hands only for her to wield a knife to cut wires. If the bomb is attached to a gyroscope, don't let Jim Gordon hold the damn thing. Their roles should have been reversed, especially if you want to give Lee something to do to keep her usefully involved.

The lack of Bruce Wayne was unforgivable. I realize Gotham as a prequel series has always been about Jim and the supporting characters, but Bruce was featured just as much. At least Gotham showed a bit more of Batman than Smallville did of Superman. Unfortunately, what little we did see was hideous. If you're going to give Gotham a retro chick gothic atmosphere, the Batsuit should have had a similar style. It should have been more of the rubber suit of the Tim Burton movies instead of the armor padding of the Nolan movies. It looked more like paintball armor painted black than anything else. Hell, I'd rather have batnipples and codpieces. And the head/neck was way too skinny/tall for my taste. By the time you add whatever they were trying to do with Bruce's ageing up effect, and the whole thing was just a big fat fail.

Overall, I just wish so much of this season wasn't wasted on establishing Bane and Talia as new villains. I assume Bruce was going to see some version of the League of Assassins for his training, but I wouldn't know that from this episode. It just seemed way too vague.

I think I enjoyed this finale more than I disliked it, but there are so many frustrations. So long Gotham.

[Daltrey]

On 4/27/2019 at 10:15 AM, WhyOhWhy said:

Here's what she said about the recast:

 "It's important to me that I'm the one to tell you this because it was a choice that I made [...] I wanted to give (the character) Selina Kyle as much respect as possible. Some will say that giving her respect would include seeing the character through the end of the show, which I understand. But, I firmly believe that part of leaving a legacy and being part of a legacy means knowing when to pass the torch to someone else."

https://www.tvguide.com/news/gotham-camren-bicondova-replaced-lili-simmons/

On 4/27/2019 at 12:08 PM, ursula said:

She did leave a post on twitter/instagram but to me that doesn't really confirm that the decision was hers.

To me, what's damningly obvious is that the actress that replaced her looked nothing like Camren. And no, slapping a long curly blonde wig on Lili (when Camren's curls were chin-length) isn't convincing anyone. They look nothing alike. They don't have the same face (Lili's is narrow, Camren's is round), or body type (Lili is tall and lanky, Camren was short and curvy). 

The fact is that, sadly, Camren's full-cheeks and full body is not what Hollywood regards as leading lady material. 

Thanks. I did eventually see her tweet and I addressed it, over on the speculation thread, I think. I was disappointed by her decision and I think she could have done it, no problem, but I respect her choice and thanked her in another tweet for the 5 years she gave the show. Don't know if she saw it but... I felt it was the right thing to do. 

[tennisgurl]

Honestly, I put off watching this episode because I wasent ready to say goodbye just yet. Gotham was the bizarre, gothic superhero story that was a good counterbalance to many of the other superhero shows around. Despite the crowded market, there really isnt another show that quite combined campy melodrama, gothic horror, and superhero archetypes quite the way Gotham did. It had some high highs and some low lows, and a LOT of weird throughout, but I was rarely if ever bored, and thats certainly an achievement. In the millions of Batman incarnations and variations and adaptations, the version that Gotham became was a really interesting hybrid between the two sort of typical Batmans: The campy ridiculous Batman with its rouges gallery of costumed weirdos and bat shark repellent, and the dark gritty Batman, filled with violence and corruption and child murder. Its a very fine line to walk, and at its best, Gotham walked it with the confidence that only an old timie fedora hat could give you. 

What I really ended up loving about the show is as time went on, it really did create some incarnations of classic character that I really, truly do buy. Like, that WAS a young Bruce Wayne, that WAS a young Selina Kyle, that WAS Penguin, that WAS The Riddler, in ways that were interesting and different enough to differentiate them from other incarnations, but are still very much in keeping with the traditions of the characters. I do wish we had gotten to see Bruce though, even if they had to re-cast him. 

I thought this was a really good finale, although I admit that I would have liked this to be two hours instead of just one episode. Keeping Batman in the shadows until the end was a good call, although I do we could have gotten David in the costume at the end, and I liked seeing everyone more or less end up in the places that they will be when the traditional Batman stories begin. I especially love that Oswald and Ed basically end up in their 60s era Batman costumes, and are back together to cause both trouble and hiinks. Those crazy kids! And I am happy that Barbara not only lived, but went legit and is apparently on good terms with Jim and Lee and they are all raising future Batgirl together, which is a weirdly sweet ending for all of them. And even little Barbara is already a tough kid! So yeah, I am going to miss this batshit crazy show a lot, and its super Extra characters and its anachronistic clothes and technology, and its every expanding rooster of crazies (both good guys and bad, because no one willing living is Gotham is totally normal) and the many twists and turns that the show took to get us here. Crazy cackling guy in make up, odd but entertainingly twisted bad guys in costumes, well meaning cop, signal in the sky, and some guy dressed like a bat beating bad guys up in a city that is perpetually foggy. Good times. 

Also, was there really no one else they could have elected mayor in the last ten years? I mean, I know Gotham is ridiculous, but come on guys! 

Edited May 4, 2019 by tennisgurl

[paigow]

21 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Also, was there really no one else they could have elected mayor in the last ten years? I mean, I know Gotham is ridiculous, but come on guys! 

Even if the dead guy on the ballot wins, somebody has to be mayor...

[ramble]

I finally watched this. I waited because Batman has always been my favorite and I loved yet sometimes hated this show. The finale? Less love but not really hate. The villains worked for me. However, as soon as an older Selina appeared I was completely taken out of the show. I found it jarring. I have no doubt special effects makeup could have worked its magic but they chose not to go that route and it spoiled a lot of the ending for me. I also hated that Bruce got relegated to some light narration and shadow shots. I understand why but I hated it. I think this show ended at the right time but for me personally I only enjoyed about half of the wrap-up. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On 4/26/2019 at 2:05 AM, SimoneS said:

The close up of Batman (and the voice) who was obviously not David ruined this for me. They should have stuck with a long shot. However, I am pleased that Barbara made it out alive. You just know they were itching to kill her and hand over Barbara Lee to James and Lee. Frankly, that they were still married was unbelievable.

Yes, I was happy Babs was going to make it then convinced she wasn't then happy she was again although no one seems to worry much about her injuries.  

On 4/26/2019 at 2:15 AM, WritinMan said:

Best episode of the season. Too bad Camren Bicondova wasn't allowed to be Selina for the last episode. I can understand why the change was made though....

I didn't, would it have been so hard to age her up with a little makeup? 

[Joe Hellandback]

On 4/26/2019 at 2:15 AM, Lantern7 said:

Farewell, sweet Gotham. May the bar you set be scaled with the utmost determination from the next Batman franchise. Would Pennyworth count? I wouldn't think who, because you wouldn't expect the batshit . . . and I can't think of English characters from DC Comics that would lean hard into the crazy curve.

At least we got a happy epilogue, or at least as happy as one can be in Gotham City. Yeah, Barbara took a slug and Babs Jr. (can girls be "juniors"?) got her first traumatic experience . . . but the good guys won, Bruce Wayne is back in Gotham, and the beleaguered city gets the hero they've needed. Even after Reunification and the two bigger pains in the ass getting imprisoned, it couldn't have been a smooth decade. For God's sake, they made Bing Bong their mayor again, and that guy was the absolute worst.

And we get the most fitting ending for Oswald and Edward . . . two men who could be powerful, commanding and hapless at the same time. They escape the paddywagon and aim to take on the man dressed as a bat . . . but then they see him jump rooftops, and they elect to start the next day.

Dang, did they copy and paste Camran's hair onto Selina 2.0's head?

Seriously, though, was there anything Batman-related in the post-Nolan/DCEU era that could touch Gotham? I know, sounds myopic AF, but that's how I feel. This series was entertaining as hell, and unlike some shows (looking directly at you, Smallville), it's leaving at the right time. It will be missed.

PS: If you need a substitute genre show with insanity . . . off the top of my head, there's Legends of Tomorrow (easily the most entertaining Arrowverse show), Happy! and Preacher (final season coming soon). And I don't do subscription TV, but I've heard great stuff about Doom Patrol, and The Boys also looks to be violently fun.

I thought it was great to see Mayor James back, Richard Kind is so oddly likeable in the role. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On 4/26/2019 at 12:13 PM, GustavMahler said:

Actually it was Camren who initiated the need for the recast and was delighted at the choice of the actress  to play her older self.

Really? Do you have a source?

On 4/26/2019 at 12:35 PM, SimoneS said:

If nothing else Gotham's finale was consistent with its creative failure as series. It had so much promise with the casting of talented actors who were perfect for their roles, but the inconsistent maniac often incoherent storytelling along the rampant misogyny made it unwatchable for long stretches.

Where was the misogyny exactly?

[Joe Hellandback]

On 4/26/2019 at 4:09 PM, meira.hand said:

At first I thought so too, especially in closeups, but then she was standing next to Alfred and Barbara, in the banquet, and I realized it was not the face age that was the problem but the height. While David Mazouz really shot up during the series, Camren Bicondova remaind her short 5' 2" and would have looked like a child next to them. Lili Simmons is 5' 7" and so much more convincing as Catwoman.

Ah, so that's it, sort of a SMG/MT Buffy situation.

[Joe Hellandback]

On 4/26/2019 at 7:45 PM, Dobian said:

It wasn't incredible but it was a solid series finale.  They could have tried aging Lee and Gordon at least a little.  It was nice seeing Oswald and Nygma in their final Penguin/Riddler incarnations.  Good showdown scene with this show's Joker and Batman making his debut.  Bomb diffusing scene was funny.  Batman himself looked kind of weird in the final shot of the episode.  A little sad that we got older Selina this week so I missed the actress who played her during the run.  It felt a little off.  We did get a final glimpse of young Bruce in Nepal at the beginning.  I will miss this crazy show, it was a fun ride.

They should have had Alfred share Bruce's letter with Selina to give Camren one scene at least?

[Joe Hellandback]

On 4/27/2019 at 5:40 AM, call me ishmael said:

I assumed that Jeremiah said he’d kill Barbara Lee if Bullock said he was behind it.

Or set off the C4?

On 4/27/2019 at 1:23 PM, Samwise979 said:

Am I the only one that thinks Jeremiah is dead? 

I mean, maybe not if the show was continuing but since it's not.... Batman hit him in the head with his bat boomerang thingy. He went down. He was still down in the background when showing Gordon saving Barbara Lee.

And I'm sure I've read on this board other posters quoting tptb stating that Jeremiah wasn't meant to be the joker. 

I for one will miss this crazy show. I am not a comic book reader so I never really compared the show or it's characters to different mediums. I just took it for what it was and had fun with it. 

No, that's exactly what I thought. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On 4/29/2019 at 6:10 AM, Kaiju Ballet said:

I thought Harvey took the blame for shooting the cop so the cop's family would get a pension (which would be lost if he killed himself) There was a long, lingering shot of the cop's family photo, and it's kind of consistent with Harvey's character.

I kept waiting for Harper to be addressed as "Captain" -- she survived a full decade in the GCPD! There was one other person who I recognized--Alvarez?

Gonna miss this show and its gorgeous art direction.

I always thought the implication was that Jerimiah was threatening the cop's family. 

[Joe Hellandback]

1. We had the moustache and then we lost it, alas.  

2. I like the new Selina, she's very good although I'd have liked Camren to have at least one scene, maybe Alfred could have let her see Bruce's letter?

3. Yay, they kept Babs! Like her as a redhead and love little Barbara Lee. Also nice to see her and Selina meet up again and are still friends. Would have liked a little ref to Tabby, maybe have that be the name of Barbara Lee's cat or something.

4. So Ed and Ossie have been locked up for 10 years? Arkham/Blackgate security must have gotten a lot better?

5. Penguin and The Riddler now just like the comics, even down to Ossie's weight gain. 

6. One question, what is Jim retiring from the GCPD to do? 

7.  Mayor James, yay! Really like Richard Kind in the role but he's back for 5 minutes and gets kidnapped AGAIN!

8. Byebye Ecco you psycho, the only recurring character they kill off for sure.

9. Would have liked a ref to Harvey Dent and some other characters, even if only an article in the paper. 

10. Love Ossie and Ed dangling from the lamppost, I guess Bats really has put the fear into them. 

11. Personally I took it that Jerimiah is dead with a Batarang through his skull? 

12. Great final shot, all you really wanted to end the show.

8/10, hope Pennyworth is of the same calibre. 

[meira.hand]

7 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

On 4/26/2019 at 6:09 PM, meira.hand said:

At first I thought so too, especially in closeups, but then she was standing next to Alfred and Barbara, in the banquet, and I realized it was not the face age that was the problem but the height. While David Mazouz really shot up during the series, Camren Bicondova remaind her short 5' 2" and would have looked like a child next to them. Lili Simmons is 5' 7" and so much more convincing as Catwoman.

Ah, so that's it, sort of a SMG/MT Buffy situation. 

So SMG is Sarah Michelle Gellar but who/what is MT and what situation are you referring to?

SMG being small was a plus because she did have special powers as a born slayer and the contrast between this strength and her being petite added to the charm. I was simply trying to figure out he reasoning behind the replacement. There are many series with time jumps issues and each seem to solve it in different ways but when you start with still growing & developing young children, you really depend on luck. While you could see, during the series, David Mazouz growing from a child to a man, both physically and in maturity, Camren Bicondova hardly changed despite being two years older than him.

[Joe Hellandback]

4 hours ago, meira.hand said:

So SMG is Sarah Michelle Gellar but who/what is MT and what situation are you referring to?

SMG being small was a plus because she did have special powers as a born slayer and the contrast between this strength and her being petite added to the charm. I was simply trying to figure out he reasoning behind the replacement. There are many series with time jumps issues and each seem to solve it in different ways but when you start with still growing & developing young children, you really depend on luck. While you could see, during the series, David Mazouz growing from a child to a man, both physically and in maturity, Camren Bicondova hardly changed despite being two years older than him.

Michelle Tractenberg as 'Dawnie, her 'little' sister who is already taller than Buffy half way through season 5 as she grows up to be Gossip Girl 

[John Potts]

A rather overstuffed episode to end on, that would really have benefitted from being twice as long.

How did Mayor Aubrey get re-elected!? It's 10 years later, there's presumably been a couple of elections in that time and Jim had (apparently) somewhat cleaned house. But they still elect the guy who was both corrupt and useless?

I don't blame Penguin for wanting Gordon dead, though he should have learned from Tucco ("When you have to shoot: Shoot, don't talk!"). Did Jim not even speak in his mitigation for defending the barricades last episode? Not surprised Penguin (and Edd) want him dead

I'm guessing most of the cast knows who Batman is in this continuity? Gordon certainly would only not know because he doesn't want to; Selina, Nyssa and the Joker seem to know and both the Penguin and Riddler should have worked it out.

So we're reusing The Killing Joke again? Also: Baby Babs, SWING! OK, the Joker would probably  let go of the rope if you tried to escape, but once Jim caught it, she could swing out from over the vat.

On ‎4‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 2:05 AM, SimoneS said:

I am pleased that Barbara made it out alive. You just know they were itching to kill her and hand over Barbara Lee to James and Lee.

Nice to see alternative families represented. And what step parent hasn't tried to kill their bio equivalent (or so I hear)!

On ‎4‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 2:15 AM, Lantern7 said:

Yeah, Barbara took a slug and Babs Jr. (can girls be "juniors"?) got her first traumatic experience

I wonder what card/present is appropriate for "Baby's First Death Trap"? There must be a huge market for that in Gotham!

On ‎4‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 11:08 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Loved that they brought in Gordon's iconic stache, only for him to shave it off after Barbara mocked it.  Hee!

Not sure it's that iconic. Neither Neil Hamilton (60s TV Jim Gordon) nor Pat Hingle (1989 movie Gordon) had one, it's a more recent development. And at least it meant "10 years older" Jim actually looked different... for about 2 minutes. Other than Barbara dyeing her hair (and I guess Lee put in red streaks), everyone else aged fantastically well - almost as if they were barely a day older...

[Joe Hellandback]

On 7/30/2019 at 8:32 PM, John Potts said:

A rather overstuffed episode to end on, that would really have benefitted from being twice as long.

How did Mayor Aubrey get re-elected!? It's 10 years later, there's presumably been a couple of elections in that time and Jim had (apparently) somewhat cleaned house. But they still elect the guy who was both corrupt and useless?

I don't blame Penguin for wanting Gordon dead, though he should have learned from Tucco ("When you have to shoot: Shoot, don't talk!"). Did Jim not even speak in his mitigation for defending the barricades last episode? Not surprised Penguin (and Edd) want him dead

I'm guessing most of the cast knows who Batman is in this continuity? Gordon certainly would only not know because he doesn't want to; Selina, Nyssa and the Joker seem to know and both the Penguin and Riddler should have worked it out.

So we're reusing The Killing Joke again? Also: Baby Babs, SWING! OK, the Joker would probably  let go of the rope if you tried to escape, but once Jim caught it, she could swing out from over the vat.

Nice to see alternative families represented. And what step parent hasn't tried to kill their bio equivalent (or so I hear)!

I wonder what card/present is appropriate for "Baby's First Death Trap"? There must be a huge market for that in Gotham!

Not sure it's that iconic. Neither Neil Hamilton (60s TV Jim Gordon) nor Pat Hingle (1989 movie Gordon) had one, it's a more recent development. And at least it meant "10 years older" Jim actually looked different... for about 2 minutes. Other than Barbara dyeing her hair (and I guess Lee put in red streaks), everyone else aged fantastically well - almost as if they were barely a day older...

1. Overstuffed is a good term for it, this season felt unbalanced due to the studios indecision over its' length. Equally they crammed stuff into 3 thinking they wouldn't get a fourth so then had to backtrack.

2. Mayor James? TIG! Besides, who'd want to be Mayor, you'd always end up being killed or kidnapped. 

3. I suspect Jim did speak for him, hence why he only got 10 years.